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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




The old argument is that the Maquis make sense when you see them as basically future seasteader/bioshock libertarian types who come crying to mommy the moment they encounter any actual consequences for their actions

Possibly related to the old theory that the Federation sends weird cranks off to distant moons to do their weird science poo poo far away from decent people, which would explain SO MANY EPISODES

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Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




You have to imagine the sort of person who doesn't want to enjoy life in paradise comfort on a major world like Earth is a little different. Hence the colonist cranks and Starfleet people.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Grand Fromage posted:

You have to imagine the sort of person who doesn't want to enjoy life in paradise comfort on a major world like Earth is a little different. Hence the colonist cranks and Starfleet people.

I always just figured the colonists wanted to go out and build strange new worlds instead of finding them. Which still fits on their whole self discovery thing, just in a different manner than Mad Scientist or Barclay.

grassy gnoll
Aug 27, 2006

The pawsting business is tough work.

kinda surprised that in the year 2020 that a group of idiots deciding to take the worst possible path that leads to the most death and suffering for literally no reason sounds like an implausible motivation to some of y'all.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


The only thing about the Maquis that seems incongruous to the rest of Star Trek is that it depicts humans in the far future as being active members of the galactic community with wants and needs rather than passive observers. Can't believe that humans would feel some kind of attachment to their homes.

Personally, my only issue with them is that the Federation shouldn't have any obligation to do anything about them, because the Cardassians conquered their worlds by force, and that should make them an internal matter to the Cardassian empire. So if these fascists can't maintain their rule, that's their responsibility.

I don't think there really needs to be an explanation of why humans would colonize other worlds any more than there needs to be an explanation of why humans would leave their planet to explore the dangerous deep reaches of space in the first place.

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


SlothfulCobra posted:

The only thing about the Maquis that seems incongruous to the rest of Star Trek is that it depicts humans in the far future as being active members of the galactic community with wants and needs rather than passive observers. Can't believe that humans would feel some kind of attachment to their homes.

Personally, my only issue with them is that the Federation shouldn't have any obligation to do anything about them, because the Cardassians conquered their worlds by force, and that should make them an internal matter to the Cardassian empire. So if these fascists can't maintain their rule, that's their responsibility.

I don't think there really needs to be an explanation of why humans would colonize other worlds any more than there needs to be an explanation of why humans would leave their planet to explore the dangerous deep reaches of space in the first place.

I mean sure, the worlds SHOULD be an internal matter for the Cardassian government. But it's pretty easy to see how Cardassia would view the Maquis as Federation plants (especially given their antagonism towards Cardassia), and the Federation populace would be hard pressed to just allow a planet to be massacred when it was filled with their former colonists. This isn't even that crazy of a scenario, I mean look at eastern Ukraine and the separatist militias to get an idea of how that can serve as pretexts for invasion/conflict

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





I always figured the reason why the federation cared was because they didn't want to torpedo the peace agreement.

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


It's pretty much that exactly. They fought a 23 year war, worlds were exchanged presumably, even if Cardassia maybe started stepping on the toes of the agreement (per TNG). Cardassian colonists were probably just a lot more likely to head home and go back to Cardassian rule, since loyalty to the state is something their civilization is big on

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




docbeard posted:

So, uh, has anyone here ever had to move when it wasn't your idea? Because let me tell you, even when it's convenient and you're getting help and going somewhere better it is loving annoying to move, and whether it's your landlord telling you that they want to remodel so it's time to go or the Federation saying welp we gave your planet to the Nazi Snake Empire, sorry, it's much worse when you HAVE to move and some resentment is to be expected.

Like I agree that the Maquis weren't very well implemented but it's not because people should be happy to pick up their lives just because the Federation says so.

its would be like if your parents told you that you had to move out of one penthouse and into another because they're selling the first one. and also if you stay in the first one you might be murdered by space fascists. its just not a reasonable thing to do violence over. complain? yeah of course. fight a guerilla war where the only thing preventing you from being repeatedly war crimed are the good graces of one of the sides you're fighting against? maybe not

docbeard posted:

Though instead of the lovely Maquis storyline I like the first-season episode "Progress" a lot better as an exploration of this kind of thing, partly because it's as reasonable a "you have to move" situation as can be, but mostly because Brian Keith and co. are upset not because it's unfair but because they're PTSD-suffering Occupation survivors who are responding wholly out of trauma, and it's ultimately about Kira having to reconcile that shared experience with her duty to a government she's loyal to, but has been extremely critical of in the past. I don't know if I'd have recommended it for the contest but it's a standout of early DS9 for me.

progress and shakaar both did a much better job of making you sympathize with semi-abandoned cranks that live in the wilderness because they have believable reasons, goals and community origins

Verviticus fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Oct 23, 2020

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




CainFortea posted:

Okay, i've picked. It was close.

Trials and Tribble-ations was a really fun romp, and of all the time travel eps Star Trek has done, this one was really well done cinematically.

Civil Defense was an decent episode until Gul Dukat shows up and just makes like 2000 ham sandwiches. Him just chatting while wandering around all the destruction and then realizing HE is also hosed was glorious.

Shakaar was good if for nothing else than even the military realizing that Space Karen is a dick and should be ignored.

Bar Association for worker unity and rubbing Quark's face in the fact that Rom is good and useful.

It was a tough choice, but I have to go with Civil Defense. docbeard You get to pick one of the choices offered, and since Jeff owns the forums now those are on the table. If you still want me to donate to a non-profit I will do that.

if this exercise has convinced you to watch the entire show i await your apology in two months when you return here to tell me that the visitor is actually the best episode and you just werent integrated enough with the characters to understand

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Verviticus posted:

if this exercise has convinced you to watch the entire show i await your apology in two months when you return here to tell me that the visitor is actually the best episode and you just werent integrated enough with the characters to understand

Put on your waitin hat.

Sir DonkeyPunch
Mar 23, 2007

I didn't hear no bell


Verviticus posted:

its would be like if your parents told you that you had to move out of one penthouse and into another because they're selling the first one. and also if you stay in the first one you might be murdered by space fascists. its just not a reasonable thing to do violence over. complain? yeah of course. fight a guerilla war where the only thing preventing you from being repeatedly war crimed are the good graces of one of the sides you're fighting against? maybe not


progress and shakaar both did a much better job of making you sympathize with semi-abandoned cranks that live in the wilderness because they have believable reasons, goals and community origins

also the Federation fought a war to try to save these people's homes... they lost

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Verviticus posted:

its would be like if your parents told you that you had to move out of one penthouse and into another because they're selling the first one. and also if you stay in the first one you might be murdered by space fascists. its just not a reasonable thing to do violence over. complain? yeah of course. fight a guerilla war where the only thing preventing you from being repeatedly war crimed are the good graces of one of the sides you're fighting against? maybe not

It just feels really weird that talking about how the Maquis shouldn't be upset starts sounding really pro-ethnic cleansing.

There's a lot of inconsistencies with the Maquis, like how in TNG they're portrayed as having a lot of Bajoran diaspora as well even though that gets forgotten later in DS9, or how apparently the galaxy has never seen multi-species empires before despite all the Klingons' talk of conquest, or the vagueness of what life in the Federation is like, but the thing that most of the show took as a given was that people can understandably have some attachment to their homes.

Pretty much because people in the real world are pretty heavily tied to their home, region, country, and planet and forced removal is incredibly damaging from the material and social loss even if you took great pains to keep them healthy (although ethnic cleansings seldom are that cordial). Star Trek may in the background imply that there's some kind of utopia behind closed doors, but it does literally no work to reimagine humans as having no ties to the basic facets of life that we value today, and in fact regularly uses those modern values to tell its stories.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




they probably should be upset because moving sucks and being forced to move sucks even more - but the way its written there isnt really good justification for them being more than upset and there isnt really any justification for militancy

i mean as someone pointed out, people behave in insane ways all the time. i dont think the entire maquis thing is even particularly unrealistic - im just saying that its basically impossible to sympathize with them, and star trek is usually better when that's there. ultimately my point is that the maquis are not written well enough to be what i think they wanted them to be. i think ds9 is the best trek by a fair amount but i dont think the maquis as a faction are very good - which is fine, because eddington is the focal point of the good maquis episodes and he is a very well executed character

edit; I guess it has to be considered that the maquis were intentionally made lovely or otherwise it would be harder to understand why the main characters of the show hate them so much

Verviticus fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Oct 23, 2020

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





SlothfulCobra posted:

It just feels really weird that talking about how the Maquis shouldn't be upset starts sounding really pro-ethnic cleansing.

Not nearly as weird as it sounds to have you say that no one is saying they shouldn't be upset and ignoring the very large chasm between "upset and angry" and "orbital striking civilians"

Sloth Life
Nov 15, 2014

Built for comfort and speed!

Fallen Rib

The maquis should have been more like Bajor, i.e unallied worlds who, not being part of the decision making, got basically told their world was suddenly of interest,( because the DMZ has to go somewhere) but the federation would offer them a home in return.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




The whole arc of the Maquis comes off as a bunch of belligerent idiots who won't stop poking the bear until the first galactic superpower who won't treat them with kid gloves comes along.

Boogle
Sep 1, 2004



Nap Ghost

Ghost Leviathan posted:

The whole arc of the Maquis comes off as a bunch of belligerent idiots who won't stop poking the bear until the first galactic superpower who won't treat them with kid gloves comes along.

Didn't they get genocided by the Dominion when the cardassians joined them? It really didn't work out for them in the end.

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


Yeah, I believe they did get put down, bodily

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





I can't believe none of you recommended the mirror universe episode omg.

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

I'll see you in the dome





The mirror universe is really great, once. Doesn't really matter which once, which is probably why no-one recommended one.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





I've never seen a mirror universe episode I regret watching.

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


I really considered it, but I wasn't sure how well the inverses of characters would play without some grounding in their original versions. Since you liked that one, feel grateful that there's 2 more yet

Mx.
Dec 16, 2006

am i tired or am i angry




The mirror universe one where Rom tried to figure out the rules of the mirror universe because Brunt is feeding them tubeworms is pretty good

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




And then physical Vic Fontaine shows up and they give up

docbeard
Jul 18, 2011

Modern worldly poster

I don't hate the Mirror Universe episodes but I don't really feel like they went anywhere interesting either. They're fun, I'd just kind of rather have been watching our characters.

I wouldn't have minded seeing a story or two set in that one universe from the TNG episode where a deranged Riker is screaming about the Borg being everywhere.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Mirror Universe episodes are a lot like the paintball episodes from Community. They're supposed to be romps, not plot arks. The mirror universe book from TNG is the only TNG book i've read.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

CainFortea posted:

They're supposed to be romps, not plot arks.

saving the plot from the flood of boring go-nowhere maquis episodes

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Peanut President I almost owe you an apology. I got around to doing a full watch of ds9 and I got to the baseball episode and I decided to try it again. I still couldn't watch the whole thing but I did a bit of skipping around.

Watching Odo throw Sisco out of the game was worth every bit of it.

Brute Squad
Dec 20, 2006

Laughter is the sun that drives winter from the human race






The best episodes in DS9 are the episodes that take characters you know and (hopefully) love and put them in new, unique, and fun situations. Or challenge them to grow in different ways. They're also the worst to just show people who've never seen DS9 because there's no context, no buildup, no investment, for those episodes. e.g. I absolutely love In The Pale Moonlight and Far Beyond The Stars and The Visitor, but man, those are awful to start someone off with DS9

That's what separates DS9 from Voyager and Enterprise, and even TNG. There's so many episodes that are improved by and impactful when you get to know the characters better. And they're doing this in the 90s. Before streaming services, prestige tv, and binge watching. When you'd only get this level of continuity in daily soap operas. Or maybe I'm just biased.

Brute Squad fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Jan 13, 2021

Peanut President
Nov 5, 2008





CainFortea posted:

Peanut President I almost owe you an apology. I got around to doing a full watch of ds9 and I got to the baseball episode and I decided to try it again. I still couldn't watch the whole thing but I did a bit of skipping around.

Watching Odo throw Sisco out of the game was worth every bit of it.

https://i.imgur.com/M8iPJoE.mp4

bugfoe
Mar 18, 2021

videosphere connoisseur


i know it's controversial but why do people hate move along home (1x10)? i think it's wonderful and the aliens from the new planet are so campy it's great.

Animal-Mother
Feb 14, 2012

RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT

The set was cheap, the dance was silly. It wasn't that bad, but it is the one episode Avery Brooks specifically said he didn't like.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Fuckin space mullets.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

do you like DS9 yet

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CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Eh. I like it MORE now that i've watched the whole bit. If I ever decide to rewatch it i'm just skipping to season 3.

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