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The old argument is that the Maquis make sense when you see them as basically future seasteader/bioshock libertarian types who come crying to mommy the moment they encounter any actual consequences for their actions Possibly related to the old theory that the Federation sends weird cranks off to distant moons to do their weird science poo poo far away from decent people, which would explain SO MANY EPISODES
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Oct 23, 2020 17:24
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You have to imagine the sort of person who doesn't want to enjoy life in paradise comfort on a major world like Earth is a little different. Hence the colonist cranks and Starfleet people.
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Oct 23, 2020 17:33
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Grand Fromage posted:You have to imagine the sort of person who doesn't want to enjoy life in paradise comfort on a major world like Earth is a little different. Hence the colonist cranks and Starfleet people. I always just figured the colonists wanted to go out and build strange new worlds instead of finding them. Which still fits on their whole self discovery thing, just in a different manner than Mad Scientist or Barclay.
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Oct 23, 2020 17:35
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kinda surprised that in the year 2020 that a group of idiots deciding to take the worst possible path that leads to the most death and suffering for literally no reason sounds like an implausible motivation to some of y'all.
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Oct 23, 2020 18:07
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The only thing about the Maquis that seems incongruous to the rest of Star Trek is that it depicts humans in the far future as being active members of the galactic community with wants and needs rather than passive observers. Can't believe that humans would feel some kind of attachment to their homes. Personally, my only issue with them is that the Federation shouldn't have any obligation to do anything about them, because the Cardassians conquered their worlds by force, and that should make them an internal matter to the Cardassian empire. So if these fascists can't maintain their rule, that's their responsibility. I don't think there really needs to be an explanation of why humans would colonize other worlds any more than there needs to be an explanation of why humans would leave their planet to explore the dangerous deep reaches of space in the first place.
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Oct 23, 2020 18:24
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SlothfulCobra posted:The only thing about the Maquis that seems incongruous to the rest of Star Trek is that it depicts humans in the far future as being active members of the galactic community with wants and needs rather than passive observers. Can't believe that humans would feel some kind of attachment to their homes. I mean sure, the worlds SHOULD be an internal matter for the Cardassian government. But it's pretty easy to see how Cardassia would view the Maquis as Federation plants (especially given their antagonism towards Cardassia), and the Federation populace would be hard pressed to just allow a planet to be massacred when it was filled with their former colonists. This isn't even that crazy of a scenario, I mean look at eastern Ukraine and the separatist militias to get an idea of how that can serve as pretexts for invasion/conflict
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Oct 23, 2020 19:03
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I always figured the reason why the federation cared was because they didn't want to torpedo the peace agreement.
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Oct 23, 2020 19:10
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It's pretty much that exactly. They fought a 23 year war, worlds were exchanged presumably, even if Cardassia maybe started stepping on the toes of the agreement (per TNG). Cardassian colonists were probably just a lot more likely to head home and go back to Cardassian rule, since loyalty to the state is something their civilization is big on
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Oct 23, 2020 19:36
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docbeard posted:So, uh, has anyone here ever had to move when it wasn't your idea? Because let me tell you, even when it's convenient and you're getting help and going somewhere better it is loving annoying to move, and whether it's your landlord telling you that they want to remodel so it's time to go or the Federation saying welp we gave your planet to the Nazi Snake Empire, sorry, it's much worse when you HAVE to move and some resentment is to be expected. its would be like if your parents told you that you had to move out of one penthouse and into another because they're selling the first one. and also if you stay in the first one you might be murdered by space fascists. its just not a reasonable thing to do violence over. complain? yeah of course. fight a guerilla war where the only thing preventing you from being repeatedly war crimed are the good graces of one of the sides you're fighting against? maybe not docbeard posted:Though instead of the lovely Maquis storyline I like the first-season episode "Progress" a lot better as an exploration of this kind of thing, partly because it's as reasonable a "you have to move" situation as can be, but mostly because Brian Keith and co. are upset not because it's unfair but because they're PTSD-suffering Occupation survivors who are responding wholly out of trauma, and it's ultimately about Kira having to reconcile that shared experience with her duty to a government she's loyal to, but has been extremely critical of in the past. I don't know if I'd have recommended it for the contest but it's a standout of early DS9 for me. progress and shakaar both did a much better job of making you sympathize with semi-abandoned cranks that live in the wilderness because they have believable reasons, goals and community origins Verviticus fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Oct 23, 2020 |
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Oct 23, 2020 21:05
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CainFortea posted:Okay, i've picked. It was close. if this exercise has convinced you to watch the entire show i await your apology in two months when you return here to tell me that the visitor is actually the best episode and you just werent integrated enough with the characters to understand 
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Oct 23, 2020 21:09
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Verviticus posted:if this exercise has convinced you to watch the entire show i await your apology in two months when you return here to tell me that the visitor is actually the best episode and you just werent integrated enough with the characters to understand Put on your waitin hat.
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Oct 23, 2020 21:13
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Verviticus posted:its would be like if your parents told you that you had to move out of one penthouse and into another because they're selling the first one. and also if you stay in the first one you might be murdered by space fascists. its just not a reasonable thing to do violence over. complain? yeah of course. fight a guerilla war where the only thing preventing you from being repeatedly war crimed are the good graces of one of the sides you're fighting against? maybe not also the Federation fought a war to try to save these people's homes... they lost
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Oct 23, 2020 21:15
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Verviticus posted:its would be like if your parents told you that you had to move out of one penthouse and into another because they're selling the first one. and also if you stay in the first one you might be murdered by space fascists. its just not a reasonable thing to do violence over. complain? yeah of course. fight a guerilla war where the only thing preventing you from being repeatedly war crimed are the good graces of one of the sides you're fighting against? maybe not It just feels really weird that talking about how the Maquis shouldn't be upset starts sounding really pro-ethnic cleansing. There's a lot of inconsistencies with the Maquis, like how in TNG they're portrayed as having a lot of Bajoran diaspora as well even though that gets forgotten later in DS9, or how apparently the galaxy has never seen multi-species empires before despite all the Klingons' talk of conquest, or the vagueness of what life in the Federation is like, but the thing that most of the show took as a given was that people can understandably have some attachment to their homes. Pretty much because people in the real world are pretty heavily tied to their home, region, country, and planet and forced removal is incredibly damaging from the material and social loss even if you took great pains to keep them healthy (although ethnic cleansings seldom are that cordial). Star Trek may in the background imply that there's some kind of utopia behind closed doors, but it does literally no work to reimagine humans as having no ties to the basic facets of life that we value today, and in fact regularly uses those modern values to tell its stories.
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Oct 23, 2020 21:36
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they probably should be upset because moving sucks and being forced to move sucks even more - but the way its written there isnt really good justification for them being more than upset and there isnt really any justification for militancy i mean as someone pointed out, people behave in insane ways all the time. i dont think the entire maquis thing is even particularly unrealistic - im just saying that its basically impossible to sympathize with them, and star trek is usually better when that's there. ultimately my point is that the maquis are not written well enough to be what i think they wanted them to be. i think ds9 is the best trek by a fair amount but i dont think the maquis as a faction are very good - which is fine, because eddington is the focal point of the good maquis episodes and he is a very well executed character edit; I guess it has to be considered that the maquis were intentionally made lovely or otherwise it would be harder to understand why the main characters of the show hate them so much Verviticus fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Oct 23, 2020 |
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Oct 23, 2020 22:01
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SlothfulCobra posted:It just feels really weird that talking about how the Maquis shouldn't be upset starts sounding really pro-ethnic cleansing. Not nearly as weird as it sounds to have you say that no one is saying they shouldn't be upset and ignoring the very large chasm between "upset and angry" and "orbital striking civilians"
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Oct 23, 2020 22:10
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The maquis should have been more like Bajor, i.e unallied worlds who, not being part of the decision making, got basically told their world was suddenly of interest,( because the DMZ has to go somewhere) but the federation would offer them a home in return.
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Oct 24, 2020 23:23
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The whole arc of the Maquis comes off as a bunch of belligerent idiots who won't stop poking the bear until the first galactic superpower who won't treat them with kid gloves comes along.
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Oct 25, 2020 05:06
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The whole arc of the Maquis comes off as a bunch of belligerent idiots who won't stop poking the bear until the first galactic superpower who won't treat them with kid gloves comes along. Didn't they get genocided by the Dominion when the cardassians joined them? It really didn't work out for them in the end.
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Oct 25, 2020 16:52
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Yeah, I believe they did get put down, bodily
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Oct 25, 2020 17:45
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I can't believe none of you recommended the mirror universe episode omg.
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Oct 25, 2020 21:23
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The mirror universe is really great, once. Doesn't really matter which once, which is probably why no-one recommended one.
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Oct 25, 2020 21:30
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I've never seen a mirror universe episode I regret watching.
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Oct 25, 2020 21:38
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I really considered it, but I wasn't sure how well the inverses of characters would play without some grounding in their original versions. Since you liked that one, feel grateful that there's 2 more yet
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Oct 25, 2020 22:03
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The mirror universe one where Rom tried to figure out the rules of the mirror universe because Brunt is feeding them tubeworms is pretty good
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Oct 25, 2020 23:50
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And then physical Vic Fontaine shows up and they give up
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Oct 26, 2020 08:48
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I don't hate the Mirror Universe episodes but I don't really feel like they went anywhere interesting either. They're fun, I'd just kind of rather have been watching our characters. I wouldn't have minded seeing a story or two set in that one universe from the TNG episode where a deranged Riker is screaming about the Borg being everywhere.
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Oct 26, 2020 13:08
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Mirror Universe episodes are a lot like the paintball episodes from Community. They're supposed to be romps, not plot arks. The mirror universe book from TNG is the only TNG book i've read.
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Oct 26, 2020 14:59
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CainFortea posted:They're supposed to be romps, not plot arks. saving the plot from the flood of boring go-nowhere maquis episodes
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Oct 27, 2020 04:03
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Peanut President I almost owe you an apology. I got around to doing a full watch of ds9 and I got to the baseball episode and I decided to try it again. I still couldn't watch the whole thing but I did a bit of skipping around. Watching Odo throw Sisco out of the game was worth every bit of it.
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Jan 13, 2021 09:37
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The best episodes in DS9 are the episodes that take characters you know and (hopefully) love and put them in new, unique, and fun situations. Or challenge them to grow in different ways. They're also the worst to just show people who've never seen DS9 because there's no context, no buildup, no investment, for those episodes. e.g. I absolutely love In The Pale Moonlight and Far Beyond The Stars and The Visitor, but man, those are awful to start someone off with DS9 That's what separates DS9 from Voyager and Enterprise, and even TNG. There's so many episodes that are improved by and impactful when you get to know the characters better. And they're doing this in the 90s. Before streaming services, prestige tv, and binge watching. When you'd only get this level of continuity in daily soap operas. Or maybe I'm just biased. Brute Squad fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 10:25
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CainFortea posted:Peanut President I almost owe you an apology. I got around to doing a full watch of ds9 and I got to the baseball episode and I decided to try it again. I still couldn't watch the whole thing but I did a bit of skipping around. https://i.imgur.com/M8iPJoE.mp4
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Jan 13, 2021 22:37
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i know it's controversial but why do people hate move along home (1x10)? i think it's wonderful and the aliens from the new planet are so campy it's great.
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Mar 18, 2021 19:50
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The set was cheap, the dance was silly. It wasn't that bad, but it is the one episode Avery Brooks specifically said he didn't like.
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Mar 18, 2021 22:47
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Fuckin space mullets.
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Mar 18, 2021 22:51
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do you like DS9 yet
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Mar 19, 2021 00:37
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Eh. I like it MORE now that i've watched the whole bit. If I ever decide to rewatch it i'm just skipping to season 3.
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Mar 19, 2021 06:53
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Verviticus posted:i think in the pale moonlight is best saved for a full ds9 watch-through if he decides that he likes the series, honestly that episode honestly blew me away. i'm not even a huge Star Trek fan(liked DS9 and TNG, couldn't finish Discovery or the other one) but it's probably in my top ten favourite episodes of any series
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Jul 12, 2021 11:17
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