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BrotherJayne
Nov 27, 2019

Cum Catapultae Proscriptae Erunt Tum Soli Proscripti Catapultas Habebunt


CharlestheHammer posted:

The shield is more fun and while I have a problem with its attempts at commentary it doesnít have anything as bad as the Wires season 5

The Wire had a 5th Season?

I seem to only recall a quick highlight reel of Snoop getting got, Marlo being Marlo, and Cheese getting his. Oh, and doesn't the knuckle dragger land some work with the lawyer, while still doing illegal poo poo for the BPD?

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Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004




Grimey Drawer

thereís plenty of The Wire season 5 that isnít poo poo, unfortunately the poo poo parts are most of the two main storylines

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk


Weirdly similar to b5 s5 now I think of it

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


The biggest problem with it to my mind is that Simon didn't have anywhere near the distance he needed to tell a story about the Baltimore Sun, and Ed Burns wasn't around to rein in his worst excesses like Simon was for him in Season 4 and the school storyline.

Simon later noted that he was trying to make a point about how the newspaper and its employees were so caught up in their own self-importance (Gus in particular beneath the surface level "super journalist/editor" bullshit) that even when they had successes they completely failed to note actual major, giant media stories happening right under their noses. Except Simon did a really, really bad job of telling that story, especially since every other "Boss" in the other seasons gets a chance to demonstrate why they are the way they are, the forces that conspired to put them into these positions, the value they actually have in some capacities etc.... but in Season 5, the Baltimore Sun Editors are just incredibly 1-dimensional rear end in a top hat idiots who don't know anything and have dumb concerns and they smell bad too!

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



Yup. Totally agree with all that. We get it! You hate your old bosses!

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Jerusalem posted:

The biggest problem with it to my mind is that Simon didn't have anywhere near the distance he needed to tell a story about the Baltimore Sun, and Ed Burns wasn't around to rein in his worst excesses like Simon was for him in Season 4 and the school storyline.

Simon later noted that he was trying to make a point about how the newspaper and its employees were so caught up in their own self-importance (Gus in particular beneath the surface level "super journalist/editor" bullshit) that even when they had successes they completely failed to note actual major, giant media stories happening right under their noses. Except Simon did a really, really bad job of telling that story, especially since every other "Boss" in the other seasons gets a chance to demonstrate why they are the way they are, the forces that conspired to put them into these positions, the value they actually have in some capacities etc.... but in Season 5, the Baltimore Sun Editors are just incredibly 1-dimensional rear end in a top hat idiots who don't know anything and have dumb concerns and they smell bad too!

Retrospective it's actually weird that season 2 has the reputation of being the weakest season when it's easily as good as the first. Of all the seasons of The Wire 5 is easily the most out of place, as they kind of go a little too far into weird "actually its about ethics in journalism" plot.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004




Grimey Drawer

I thought these days it was generally accepted that 2 was one of the stronger seasons?

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

Coal Jobs for the Coal God



I mean everything from 1-4 is considered amazing and then season 5 has shortcomings but still great. When I first watched it I thought I went 4-3-1-2-5.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Torquemada posted:

Breaking Bad is to Mad Men as The Shield is to The Wire.

Yeah? I agree with this?

I sure as hell am more likely to watch Mad Men/The Wire anyway

Torquemada
Oct 21, 2010

Drei Gläser


Shageletic posted:

Yeah? I agree with this?

I sure as hell am more likely to watch Mad Men/The Wire anyway

Thatís why thereís no commentary, itís just a statement.

Brendan Rodgers
Jun 11, 2014






The Shield is janky as gently caress but I know in my heart that it's the best show of all time, even if my brain thinks that's stupid.

Torquemada
Oct 21, 2010

Drei Gläser


Itís satisfying like nothing else because it builds and builds to an ending that any other show would have flunked, but itís flawless and you just sit there going Ďgently caressí when itís all over. No other show mastered the concept of Ďrising actioní like it, maintaining it for seven series was nothing short of genius. On the other side of the coin, itís not a character piece, so often the emotions and motivations are somewhat cursory.

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

I see past the sham that is society, and I'm into some incredibly fucked up shit.

sounds like I need to watch the shield. And the wire. (The rest of it anyway, the first season was great but I checked out before the end of s2e1 and never went back)

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



Season 4 of The Wire is very very good and very very sad.

Torquemada
Oct 21, 2010

Drei Gläser


To me The Wire is a show that ran until the main character Stringer Bell got killed. They then rebooted the show for a stellar season about being young black and poor in America, with special focus on the education system. They wrapped up some excellent loose ends in the fifth season (Omar, Bodie, Bubbles) but didnít stick the landing due to a couple of main plots that wouldnít look out of place in a CSI-level show.

Fighting Trousers
May 17, 2011

Does this excite you, girl?


I recently binged The Dick Van Dyke Show, and it's fascinating comparing how that show depicted Rob and Laura's marriage against the various shades of domestic discontent we see in Mad Men.

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

I see past the sham that is society, and I'm into some incredibly fucked up shit.

Torquemada posted:

To me The Wire is a show that ran until the main character Stringer Bell got killed.



I'm joking, I already got spoiled on that years ago

Schlieren
Jan 7, 2005

LEZZZZZZZZZBIAN CRUSH


Torquemada posted:

To me The Wire is a show that ran until the main character Stringer Bell got killed. They then rebooted the show for a stellar season about being young black and poor in America, with special focus on the education system. They wrapped up some excellent loose ends in the fifth season (Omar, Bodie, Bubbles) but didnít stick the landing due to a couple of main plots that wouldnít look out of place in a CSI-level show.

After the sledgehammer to the soul that was the fourth season, I don't think it's unfair not to begrudge the show a little bit of fun on its way out

Simon telling his own story terribly is also perfectly fitting, given his critiques always stop with half-measure solutions, rather than being able to see all the way through to the systemic issues; myopia being his political calling card

Schlieren fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Feb 19, 2021

UNRULY_HOUSEGUEST
Jul 19, 2006

mea culpa


VinylonUnderground posted:

I strongly disagree. Mad Men is way more a piece of its time, to its detriment. Breaking Bad is so good it actively makes me angry every time I watch it. Mad Men is nice. Breaking Bad also never really hit a doldrums period whereas at least two seasons of Mad Men could be easily excised. It's a real Sopranos situation where it just drops like a stone for a few seasons and spins its wheels. Breaking Bad was nonstop adrenaline throughout.

I honestly had to check to make sure that the guy whose prior take was that Don Draper is too much an avatar for vicarious fantasy and fuckin' Paths of Glory is effectively a pro-war film is also of the opinion that Breaking Bad and The Shield, shows singularly driven by power-abusing white suburbanite guys running over all the rules, are the best TV for being nonstop adrenaline thrill rides. Pick a lane my man

UNRULY_HOUSEGUEST fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Feb 19, 2021

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk


UNRULY_HOUSEGUEST posted:

I honestly had to check to make sure that the guy whose prior take was that Don Draper is too much an avatar for vicarious fantasy and fuckin' Paths of Glory is effectively a pro-war film is also of the opinion that Breaking Bad and The Shield, shows singularly driven by power-abusing white suburbanite guys running over all the rules, are the best TV for being nonstop adrenaline thrill rides. Pick a lane my man

yep lol

I think BB is incredible, but the clockwork world plotting makes it a bit more contrived, and i can see mad men as more enduring because it's more interested in character. In Breaking Bad the characters are all to some degree subservient to the plot, which I wouldn't say for mad men.

the things it does with structure and sound and visuals are still amazing, and it's not like one of them needs to suck.

a new study bible!
Feb 1, 2009



BIG DICK NICK
A Philadelphia Legend
Fly Eagles Fly



This isn't the thread for it but The Shield is better than The Wire

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


UNRULY_HOUSEGUEST posted:

I honestly had to check to make sure that the guy whose prior take was that Don Draper is too much an avatar for vicarious fantasy and fuckin' Paths of Glory is effectively a pro-war film is also of the opinion that Breaking Bad and The Shield, shows singularly driven by power-abusing white suburbanite guys running over all the rules, are the best TV for being nonstop adrenaline thrill rides. Pick a lane my man

Take a look at their previous rapsheets

https://forums.somethingawful.com/banlist.php?userid=170900

https://forums.somethingawful.com/banlist.php?userid=226764

All from 2020 to now across 3 accounts

2 bans, 35 probes most with an "ironic" racist/homophobic flavor to them.

Hit ignore and just move on past their lovely gimmick.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



sebmojo posted:

I think BB is incredible, but the clockwork world plotting makes it a bit more contrived, and i can see mad men as more enduring because it's more interested in character. In Breaking Bad the characters are all to some degree subservient to the plot, which I wouldn't say for mad men.

the things it does with structure and sound and visuals are still amazing, and it's not like one of them needs to suck.

This is how I feel about it. They're both insanely good shows, but I wouldn't compare them beyond more abstract themes like "frustrated masculinity" or "apologism for antiheroic men" or whatever. Breaking Bad is Shakespeare, about Ambition and Hubris and flawed characters bringing about their own downfall. Mad Men is like...I don't know, a modern "novel of manners," or The Great Gatsby. It's interested in such different things, it feels like comparing Star Wars and Interstellar..."I mean, they're both about space, right?"

I don't particularly mind that Bryan Cranston kept winning Emmys because he was actually that good on Breaking Bad. Jon Hamm probably should've won before 2015 (for S4E7 "The Suitcase"), but then I remember that in 2013, Jeff Daniels beat BOTH of them for his role on The Newsroom. And gently caress that.

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

I see past the sham that is society, and I'm into some incredibly fucked up shit.

Xealot posted:

but then I remember that in 2013, Jeff Daniels beat BOTH of them for his role on The Newsroom. And gently caress that.

That's lame as hell

VinylonUnderground
Dec 14, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 24 hours!


UNRULY_HOUSEGUEST posted:

I honestly had to check to make sure that the guy whose prior take was that Don Draper is too much an avatar for vicarious fantasy and fuckin' Paths of Glory is effectively a pro-war film is also of the opinion that Breaking Bad and The Shield, shows singularly driven by power-abusing white suburbanite guys running over all the rules, are the best TV for being nonstop adrenaline thrill rides. Pick a lane my man

Just because Paths of Glory isn't an effective anti-war movie doesn't mean it isn't a good movie. A movie can be good while also failing to accomplish what it sets out to do. Mad Men is absolutely lifestyle porn created by a man who adores that kind of thing and his adoration is all over it. He's also ashamed of it.

The white male power fantasy of Breaking Bad and the Shield (and the power fantasy gone awry) is great TV. I do think Breaking Bad does a better job of making Walt the villain than Mad Men does but part of that is that Walter is also "evil" in a more visceral way while Don is alienated from the evil he does much like how he is alienated from everything.

VinylonUnderground
Dec 14, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 24 hours!


Xealot posted:

It feels like comparing Star Wars and Interstellar..."I mean, they're both about space, right?"


Star Wars ripped off Flash Gordon and made it better. I'd rather watch Star Wars than what it was aping. Interstellar is a shoddy 2001-like that really just made me want to watch 2001 or Sunshine again.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!


I mean if Iím honest I think breaking bad is a better put together show than Mad Men. But then again I think mad men is an okay show. Not great but okay

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Breaking bad certainly has better cinematography, if there's one place that Mad Men falls flat it's there.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Breaking Bad definitely feels more "complete" because there's such a coherent structure to the story, a rise and fall for this one man. The bombastic or violent repercussions of Walt's choices work really well as chapter endings, so season finales are strong, and massive shifts in the status quo can happen suddenly and still feel very motivated. It's just the kind of story that lends itself to a sort of "built like a Swiss watch" reputation.

I'd argue it's harder for Mad Men because its goals are so much less concrete and its setting is so restrained. It's hard to pin down exactly what it's "about," because it's about authenticity, or ennui, or desire, or identity, or self-acceptance. It has all these little existential bits that play out in subtle ways, and very little that happens is going to be extreme or shocking because how often does mundane middle-class existence look that way?

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006



It would be interesting if there were a set of movie/tv/music awards that are only awarded ten years after release. The 2021 version would cover stuff released in 2011, etc.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Solkanar512 posted:

It would be interesting if there were a set of movie/tv/music awards that are only awarded ten years after release. The 2021 version would cover stuff released in 2011, etc.

Honestly half the fun with things like that is seeing how fast things fall out of fashion.

Crash was 2005 and I don't think I ever saw the movie mentioned again post 2006. Similariy Green Book is probably going the same route with people while Roma, BlackKKKlansman, and Black Panther will be regularly discussed as major cinematic accomplishments for years to come.

The 2000s especially for Best Picture seem pretty dire.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



Hey, people talk about Crash. They mention it whenever the conversation is about crappy movies that won Best Picture!

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






VinylonUnderground posted:

Just because Paths of Glory isn't an effective anti-war movie doesn't mean it isn't a good movie. A movie can be good while also failing to accomplish what it sets out to do. Mad Men is absolutely lifestyle porn created by a man who adores that kind of thing and his adoration is all over it. He's also ashamed of it.

The white male power fantasy of Breaking Bad and the Shield (and the power fantasy gone awry) is great TV. I do think Breaking Bad does a better job of making Walt the villain than Mad Men does but part of that is that Walter is also "evil" in a more visceral way while Don is alienated from the evil he does much like how he is alienated from everything.

Walt dies killing nazis with a huge machine gun???

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Ultimately I dont know what I was supposed to get out of Breaking Bad other than thrills. And that rapidly depreciates after a first watch.

BB is absolutely about male power fantasies, and unlike Mad Men, doesnt satisfactorily grapple with it imo

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



The ultimate male fantasy. Dying alone at work penniless after destroying your relationship with your friends, family, and everyone you've ever known.

a new study bible!
Feb 1, 2009



BIG DICK NICK
A Philadelphia Legend
Fly Eagles Fly



I agree with the sentiment that Breaking Bad doesn't really hold up, and it also doesn't help that its spinoff completely outshines it in pretty much every regard.

VinylonUnderground
Dec 14, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 24 hours!


Shageletic posted:

Walt dies killing nazis with a huge machine gun???

He goes out on his own terms. It's pretty much the perfect ending.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!


Xealot posted:

Breaking Bad definitely feels more "complete" because there's such a coherent structure to the story, a rise and fall for this one man. The bombastic or violent repercussions of Walt's choices work really well as chapter endings, so season finales are strong, and massive shifts in the status quo can happen suddenly and still feel very motivated. It's just the kind of story that lends itself to a sort of "built like a Swiss watch" reputation.

I'd argue it's harder for Mad Men because its goals are so much less concrete and its setting is so restrained. It's hard to pin down exactly what it's "about," because it's about authenticity, or ennui, or desire, or identity, or self-acceptance. It has all these little existential bits that play out in subtle ways, and very little that happens is going to be extreme or shocking because how often does mundane middle-class existence look that way?

I wouldnít call Mad Men restrained. It has a certain TV excess thatís a bit silly but ultimately works for a TV show

Annabel Pee
Dec 29, 2008


sebmojo posted:

In Breaking Bad the characters are all to some degree subservient to the plot.

I don't agree with this tbh. They have said they wrote the show literally episode to episode by looking at each characters motivations and writing naturally from there, rather than following a more natural structure, which led to climactic events happening in random episodes (The cousins) rather than season finales.

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Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






VinylonUnderground posted:

He goes out on his own terms. It's pretty much the perfect ending.

But you said BB made Walt out to be a villain?

The show should have ended an episode early.

Gaius Marius posted:

The ultimate male fantasy. Dying alone at work penniless after destroying your relationship with your friends, family, and everyone you've ever known.

Loses everything but sticks to his principles and saves the day in the end, by making the hard choices.

Thats absolutely male fantasy. Like maybe divorced male fantasy lol

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