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The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

I see past the sham that is society, and I'm into some incredibly fucked up shit.

this might be controversial, but I think jon hamm is an amazing actor

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Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 9, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.


My favorite Jon Hamm story is that for some reason he blatantly lied about being a catcher for Roger Clemens in college despite actually being in Junior High when Clemens entered the majors.

JethroMcB
Jan 23, 2004

We're normal now.
We love your family.


I'm up through mid Season 5 in my watch and something I really love is the running joke of Roger pulling hundreds, occasionally thousands, of dollars out of his pocket at a moment's notice, prompting the person he's negotiating with to ask him some variation on "...wait, is this what you normally carry?" Even after he and Joan get mugged on the street, he continues walking around with a strip club roll of large bills.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



JethroMcB posted:

I'm up through mid Season 5 in my watch and something I really love is the running joke of Roger pulling hundreds, occasionally thousands, of dollars out of his pocket at a moment's notice, prompting the person he's negotiating with to ask him some variation on "...wait, is this what you normally carry?" Even after he and Joan get mugged on the street, he continues walking around with a strip club roll of large bills.

That's the season where Peggy extorts him for the whole roll when he needs her to make an entire campaign in a few days right? I loving love roger, piece of poo poo but drat is he funny as hell

Jeffrey make Ctrl-s Spoilers for godsake, who even uses strikethrough

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

I see past the sham that is society, and I'm into some incredibly fucked up shit.

Gaius Marius posted:

That's the season where Peggy extorts him for the whole roll when he needs her to make an entire campaign in a few days right? I loving love roger, piece of poo poo but drat is he funny as hell

Jeffrey make Ctrl-s Spoilers for godsake, who even uses strikethrough

someone mentioned it a while back but all of Peggy's/Roger's interactions with each other are gold. They are at completely opposite ends on every axis in life and it makes for some really funny conversations.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



The Klowner posted:

someone mentioned it a while back but all of Peggy's/Roger's interactions with each other are gold. They are at completely opposite ends on every axis in life and it makes for some really funny conversations.

It's great, they have so few scenes together but they;re all gold, the scene near the end with roger on piano and Peggy just skating around the empty office is just fantastic.

JethroMcB
Jan 23, 2004

We're normal now.
We love your family.


Gaius Marius posted:

That's the season where Peggy extorts him for the whole roll when he needs her to make an entire campaign in a few days right? I loving love roger, piece of poo poo but drat is he funny as hell

Jeffrey make Ctrl-s Spoilers for godsake, who even uses strikethrough

Yeah, Pete tells Roger on a Friday afternoon that Mohawk is coming in on Monday morning to talk about a short campaign, and Roger realizes they've got nothing because he hasn't been active in stewarding the work. He asks Peggy to put something together over the weekend, without letting Pete (or anyone else) know that he wasn't on top of one of his biggest accounts; after offering $10 she asks "How much you got?" and gets him for a $400+ wad. "The work is $10. The lie is extra."

That's in "Mystery Date," the episode that also has the "Don imagines he strangles a woman to death and puts the body under the bed" and "Peggy brings Dawn to her apartment and checks every box possible on the White Privilege/Passive Racism scorecard" storylines. On this viewing I realized it may be the only "bad" episode of the show, simply based on how clunky both of those plots are handled - and yet that's also the episode where Joan and Greg's marriage collapses, and that's a great story with great performances (even though it also has a sour note, where the writers don't trust that you'll remember the importance of an accordion in Joan and Greg's story when it shows up in a pivotal scene.)


Gaius Marius posted:

It's great, they have so few scenes together but they;re all gold, the scene near the end with roger on piano and Peggy just skating around the empty office is just fantastic.

Roger and Peggy's final scenes in the office are just phenomenal, the perfect capstone to one of the show's best pairings. To this day I can't make think about vermouth without hearing the "...Would you drink vermouth?" "Yes, I'm afraid I would." exchange in my head.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



JethroMcB posted:


That's in "Mystery Date," the episode that also has the "Don imagines he strangles a woman to death and puts the body under the bed")


Every time someone reminds me this happens I think they're making poo poo up, It's such a weird thing to do, The version of the weird wipe in the sopranos

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk


Gaius Marius posted:

That's the season where Peggy extorts him for the whole roll when he needs her to make an entire campaign in a few days right? I loving love roger, piece of poo poo but drat is he funny as hell

Jeffrey make Ctrl-s Spoilers for godsake, who even uses strikethrough

It's ctrl p

Prince Myshkin
Jun 17, 2018


VinylonUnderground posted:

So you think Paths of Glory is an effective antiwar movie?

It very obviously is and you're relying on people not actually having seen it to make your argument.

Truffaut's assertion an anti-war movie is impossible because the events depicted via the medium of cinema would be too thrilling does not hold true for a movie with three minutes of actual war scenes that's just frame after frame of men ignominiously dying.

I don't even think a shot is fired by an onscreen character until three random men are executed so the scumbag general can save face.

ulvir
Jan 2, 2005



JethroMcB posted:

That's in "Mystery Date," the episode that also has the "Don imagines he strangles a woman to death and puts the body under the bed" and "Peggy brings Dawn to her apartment and checks every box possible on the White Privilege/Passive Racism scorecard" storylines.

that scene with Don always reminds me of the episode in The Sopranos when Tony is out of his mind over food poisoning (I think) believes he is chasing some italian woman, and later on imagines himself arguing with Carmella over his make-believe infidelity. The Peggy scene is also priceless, the way Dawn instantly sees through her poo poo when Peggy is trying really hard to appear friendly, but constantly throws a number of obvious looks towards her purse

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004




Grimey Drawer

Prince Myshkin posted:

It very obviously is and you're relying on people not actually having seen it to make your argument.

Truffaut's assertion an anti-war movie is impossible because the events depicted via the medium of cinema would be too thrilling does not hold true for a movie with three minutes of actual war scenes that's just frame after frame of men ignominiously dying.

I don't even think a shot is fired by an onscreen character until three random men are executed so the scumbag general can save face.

I watched Come and See for the first time the other day and lemme tell you anyone who thinks you can’t make an anti-war movie after seeing that is insane

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



ulvir posted:

that scene with Don always reminds me of the episode in The Sopranos when Tony is out of his mind over food poisoning (I think) believes he is chasing some italian woman, and later on imagines himself arguing with Carmella over his make-believe infidelity. The Peggy scene is also priceless, the way Dawn instantly sees through her poo poo when Peggy is trying really hard to appear friendly, but constantly throws a number of obvious looks towards her purse

The purse look is a gut punch. Peggy does a few things to make an rear end of herself in that scene, but she looks at her purse only once right before going to bed, and it has $400 in it (about $3,000 today). I think the extent to which that look was motivated by Dawn's skin color is ambiguous, because honestly, I think I would get nervous about leaving $3,000 cash out with any person that I only knew from work who had just been hired two months ago. But Dawn is definitely hurt when sees where Peggy is looking, and Peggy looks very ashamed, both in the moment, and the next day, when she finds that Dawn slipped out before Peggy woke up (politely leaving a note, of course, since Dawn's politeness is an impregnable suit of armor-her defense mechanism for surviving in an environment where she will have no reliable allies).

I doubt even Peggy knows for sure how much implicit racial biases had to do with her suddenly getting nervous about the money before bed. But Dawn knows that Peggy suddenly remembered Dawn's blackness right before leaving her alone, and the possibility of them forging a connection is instantly destroyed.

There's something Peggy does earlier in the scene that I actually find more incriminating. She interrupts Dawn to give her "permission" to speak her mind about something. Always makes me wince. But Dawn doesn't really seem all that offended or annoyed by Peggy's condescension. She remains friendly right up until that purse glance. It makes it kind of tragic. Up until 10 seconds before Peggy went into her bedroom, it seemed like they might be able to become friends, or at least allies. But that glance instantly erected the barriers of race in an irrevocable way. And Peggy knows that she ruined it.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 9, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.


So what does everyone think about Paul Kinsey’s arc?

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Sash! posted:

I knew Don was a piece of poo poo from the end of the first episode.

A piece of poo poo that's really loving good at his job, but a piece of poo poo nonetheless. The show then proceeds to show us how every character is also a piece of poo poo for one reason or another and that Don is a scared sweaty nobody terrified that the world is one second away from finding out that he's a sweaty nobody. Because once the world finds out he's nothing, then he can't get away with being horrible in every regard.

It isn't that complicated.

Yeah the show does a great job of showing why Don does the thing he does, because of his entirely hosed up childhood and need to lie about himself.

The impression that the show is interested in downplaying Don's faults and more interested in showing him being awesome, is a take you'd get from watching the DON OWNS youtube vids, than the show itself.

e: one interesting thing about those vids, they never talk about what Don does in the last few seasons. It's always cuts off around the 4th season lol. wonder why.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






JethroMcB posted:



Roger and Peggy's final scenes in the office are just phenomenal, the perfect capstone to one of the show's best pairings. To this day I can't make think about vermouth without hearing the "...Would you drink vermouth?" "Yes, I'm afraid I would." exchange in my head.

I think the key between Roger and Peggy's interactions is that they are both intensely funny people, and therefore always like each other because they have fun talking to each other. From the first Roger has been amused by Peggy, by what she does and what she says. But the deep biforcation of class and seniority always puts them in a distance. As the years progress and things equalize amongst the tumult of the late 60s, he can finally relax a bit. But the enjoyment was always there.

e: I also think that Roger likes people that try to get one over on him. He knew that Draper didn't have an interview at Sterling Cooper, but let him get in anyway. He liked Peggy asking for the office and extorting money from him. He likes people that scrabble for their fortune, and maybe envies them.

von Metternich
May 7, 2007
Why the hell not?

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

So what does everyone think about Paul Kinsey’s arc?

I think he’s a far more interesting character than Harry. I wish he had stuck around instead, I think he would have meshed well with the creatives that come in later, while I got no enjoyment in watching Harry be sweaty and hit on Meghan.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






von Metternich posted:

I think he’s a far more interesting character than Harry. I wish he had stuck around instead, I think he would have meshed well with the creatives that come in later, while I got no enjoyment in watching Harry be sweaty and hit on Meghan.

Really? Paul would have been toast. Those creatives, like any crop.of young people, crave authenticity. Paul's brand of fakiness was cause to make fun of him in 1960.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Shimrra Jamaane posted:

So what does everyone think about Paul Kinsey’s arc?

Probably ends about as well as it can for the doofus that spent the first 2 seasons huffing on a pipe and pretending like he was mister woke society intellectual.

Pete is constantly put upon but his line "what, a nuclear power plant on the east river is fine but this is where you draw the line?" just struck such a cord for who Kinsey was. Everything about him was about building up this refined intelligentsia person when he was really just a dope who didn't know when to shut his mouth completely happy to be working in an industry that rejects idealism for the sake of profit except when it's his idealism.

It don't think they say directly but it sounds like Paul worked his way through some top ad agencies and kept tumbling down the career ladder specifically because he was so resentful he wasn't one of the chosen from the original SC.

ANOTHER SCORCHER
Aug 12, 2018


This is all one big thing.


Shageletic posted:

Yeah the show does a great job of showing why Don does the thing he does, because of his entirely hosed up childhood and need to lie about himself.

The impression that the show is interested in downplaying Don's faults and more interested in showing him being awesome, is a take you'd get from watching the DON OWNS youtube vids, than the show itself.

e: one interesting thing about those vids, they never talk about what Don does in the last few seasons. It's always cuts off around the 4th season lol. wonder why.

I just finished a rewatch inspired by this thread and Don's entire second marriage is pretty clearly presented as the actions of a pathetic man trying to improve on his last marriage while being fundamentally unable to overcome his personality flaws. For the first time in his life he ends up in the beginning of a somewhat-healthy relationship with a woman (Faye) before throwing it away to marry his secretary because she is: a) nice to his kids and b) happens to be in California when he's vulnerable so he is able to tell her about himself. After an entire season of acting like a baby because she won't be the kind of woman he wants her to be, Season 4 ends by implying that he cheats on her because she expressed some minimal independence. It is clearly not an enviable way to be, despite the glamorousness of Don's life.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:

I just finished a rewatch inspired by this thread and Don's entire second marriage is pretty clearly presented as the actions of a pathetic man trying to improve on his last marriage while being fundamentally unable to overcome his personality flaws. For the first time in his life he ends up in the beginning of a somewhat-healthy relationship with a woman (Faye) before throwing it away to marry his secretary because she is: a) nice to his kids and b) happens to be in California when he's vulnerable so he is able to tell her about himself. After an entire season of acting like a baby because she won't be the kind of woman he wants her to be, Season 4 ends by implying that he cheats on her because she expressed some minimal independence. It is clearly not an enviable way to be, despite the glamorousness of Don's life.

[Don S4+ stuff]
I also viewed Don's choice here as a reveal of his normal pattern: Don wants to be with women because they're complex and challenging, but wants to *marry* them because they're not. Betty and Megan don't seem similar, but are in that they're idealized and uncomplicated trophies for Don. Betty was a blonde college girl from a good family, a literal model from a wealthy background, and pretty much THE ideal domestic housewife in the 50's. A decade later, and Megan is her own 60's ideal as a carefree, liberated, modern girl who's exotic in a stylish way but still humble, demure, and wonderful with children. Both women embody a feminine ideal that looks good and sounds good to anyone looking, "perfect" wives who make Don look as blissful and successful as would a Cadillac. Or perhaps a Jaguar.

Of course, neither Betty nor Megan are actually those things, but Don can't see that when he marries them. Someone like Faye, however, had the audacity to wear her complexity on her sleeve. That's what attracted Don to her but also probably what made her un-marriageable in his eyes. It's why I find Don so pathetic: Faye would absolutely have been a healthier choice. She's a cynical, intelligent career woman closer to Don's age and life experience, who demands honesty and directness. He could've had an honest relationship between equals. A wife he respects rather than tolerates. But the part of him who craves real emotional connection (Dick Whitman) lost out to the part that's desperate to prove to society he isn't trash (Don Draper.)

Naturally, where that leads him is isolation, loneliness, and divorce. And, of course, an increasingly depressing spiral of doomed, desperate affairs that - by seasons 6/7 - aren't sexy at all.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:

I just finished a rewatch inspired by this thread and Don's entire second marriage is pretty clearly presented as the actions of a pathetic man trying to improve on his last marriage while being fundamentally unable to overcome his personality flaws. For the first time in his life he ends up in the beginning of a somewhat-healthy relationship with a woman (Faye) before throwing it away to marry his secretary because she is: a) nice to his kids and b) happens to be in California when he's vulnerable so he is able to tell her about himself. After an entire season of acting like a baby because she won't be the kind of woman he wants her to be, Season 4 ends by implying that he cheats on her because she expressed some minimal independence. It is clearly not an enviable way to be, despite the glamorousness of Don's life.
I was honestly still hoping he could try and make it work, the show shoves it right In your face that what he's doing is not dissimilar to what Roger was doing with Jane, but dammit I was holding out hope that Don could learn from his failed marriage and have a healthier relationship with Megan.

I do think his reasons for going back to cheating are a little more complicated, It's wrapped up in his weird views of the transactional nature of sex. He cheats after he helps her get the acting gig, with all his baggage about being a whore child, I think the second that that happens something in his mind breaks and he decides, that shes just using him so it's fine if he bails on the relationship and goes back to loving around


Is you're username a reference to that loving Kenmore Ad?

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Don Draper and women are pretty weird. He's the opposite of someone who uses women to burnish his image, like soft headed wannabe alpha men today. It's all way more complex, and hosed up then that. The first woman to show kindness to him he could remember hosed him, while being kind to him (not the act of course, which is statutory rape, but before at least). The dude was literally being fed soup and being bundled up after his stepmother cast him into the basement, before the caretaker jumped his bones.

hosed up.

And it feels like every relationship afterwards crashes in the shoals of Don's mixed up expectations regarding kindness/care-taking/and sexual appeal. He's looking for a mother wife, and prostitute sophisticate girlfriend, at the same time.

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

Coal Jobs for the Coal God



and Don's "healthiest" relationships, being a relative term, are with women he chooses not to sleep with: Peggy and Anna.

In conclusion, Don is very hosed up.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Shageletic posted:

Don Draper and women are pretty weird. He's the opposite of someone who uses women to burnish his image, like soft headed wannabe alpha men today. It's all way more complex, and hosed up then that. The first woman to show kindness to him he could remember hosed him, while being kind to him (not the act of course, which is statutory rape, but before at least). The dude was literally being fed soup and being bundled up after his stepmother cast him into the basement, before the caretaker jumped his bones.

hosed up.

And it feels like every relationship afterwards crashes in the shoals of Don's mixed up expectations regarding kindness/care-taking/and sexual appeal. He's looking for a mother wife, and prostitute sophisticate girlfriend, at the same time.


yeah season six does a lot to make some of the subtext text, especially the episode where he's searching for that piece of copy with the matronly figure, and how his cheating with Sylvia is done In the same style as the people at the brothel he grew up in.

it's one of the reason I'm not fond of the people who disregard don as just a fake alpha male. dude has a lot more things going on then just a desire to use women to increase status and delving into them will lead you to a much deeper enjoyment and appreciation of the media.

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001




Shageletic posted:

Don Draper and women are pretty weird. He's the opposite of someone who uses women to burnish his image, like soft headed wannabe alpha men today. It's all way more complex, and hosed up then that. The first woman to show kindness to him he could remember hosed him, while being kind to him (not the act of course, which is statutory rape, but before at least). The dude was literally being fed soup and being bundled up after his stepmother cast him into the basement, before the caretaker jumped his bones.

hosed up.

And it feels like every relationship afterwards crashes in the shoals of Don's mixed up expectations regarding kindness/care-taking/and sexual appeal. He's looking for a mother wife, and prostitute sophisticate girlfriend, at the same time.


That episode where the prostitute rapes him is the point where Don moved from "total piece of poo poo" to "deserving of pity" for me. The guy is just so fundamentally broken from his junk upbringing that I'm not sure he could fix himself, even if the wanted to. Although he doesn't, because of how messed up he is.

ANOTHER SCORCHER
Aug 12, 2018


This is all one big thing.


Gaius Marius posted:

[Is you're username a reference to that loving Kenmore Ad?

It is. I used to have an avatar and text from it too but it got changed to this in the avatar thread of the sci-fi forum.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



Cool.

Prince Myshkin
Jun 17, 2018


NOVEMBER 21, 1963

"So what's the paper say about tomorrow?"

Devorum
Jul 30, 2005


Nap Ghost

Sash! posted:

That episode where the prostitute rapes him is the point where Don moved from "total piece of poo poo" to "deserving of pity" for me. The guy is just so fundamentally broken from his junk upbringing that I'm not sure he could fix himself, even if the wanted to. Although he doesn't, because of how messed up he is.

Don's entire character could be used to teach the concept of Moral Luck, how it shapes our available choices, and how we choose in the end.

Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.




Sash! posted:

That episode where the prostitute rapes him is the point where Don moved from "total piece of poo poo" to "deserving of pity" for me. The guy is just so fundamentally broken from his junk upbringing that I'm not sure he could fix himself, even if the wanted to. Although he doesn't, because of how messed up he is.

I would describe the end of season 6 and entirety of season 7 as him really trying to fix himself. In fact you can see glimpses of it in 4 before he bails and takes the easy way out. He does want to be better, he’s just... bad at it.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Beamed posted:

I would describe the end of season 6 and entirety of season 7 as him really trying to fix himself. In fact you can see glimpses of it in 4 before he bails and takes the easy way out. He does want to be better, he’s just... bad at it.

I wonder if you could conceivably make an argument for the "theme" of each season. I couldn't really think of anything profound but this was the first thing that came to mind.

Season 1 seems like its all about everything being the status quo while showing the rot and decay both morally and professionally that goes on in that business. All the glamour, sexiness and prestige that it comes with is little more then a smokescreen for bad people to do bad things. Nothing is really good or positive and every success comes at a cost for someone. It's very much a "know your place" kind of setting aside from 2 notable exceptions.

Season 2 has more of a focus on progressive attitudes in life, in terms of making change. Peggy and Pete seem to be somewhat upwardly mobile or at least understanding they can't stay the way they were. The season includes bringing in new younger talent with radical ideas. Roger nukes his entire life over deciding to make a fling a permanent thing. Don just walks away for weeks to clear his head and meets with Anna before admitting to Betty he wasn't faithful and wanting to retry having a family. Everyone is trying to make an improvement for the future in their own way, twisted or not.

Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.




I absolutely agree with each season, like each ep, having a theme. I’ll hold off on my analysis until the end though, since i think there’s a lot of comparison.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



Xealot posted:

[Don S4+ stuff]
I also viewed Don's choice here as a reveal of his normal pattern: Don wants to be with women because they're complex and challenging, but wants to *marry* them because they're not. Betty and Megan don't seem similar, but are in that they're idealized and uncomplicated trophies for Don. Betty was a blonde college girl from a good family, a literal model from a wealthy background, and pretty much THE ideal domestic housewife in the 50's. A decade later, and Megan is her own 60's ideal as a carefree, liberated, modern girl who's exotic in a stylish way but still humble, demure, and wonderful with children. Both women embody a feminine ideal that looks good and sounds good to anyone looking, "perfect" wives who make Don look as blissful and successful as would a Cadillac. Or perhaps a Jaguar.

Of course, neither Betty nor Megan are actually those things, but Don can't see that when he marries them. Someone like Faye, however, had the audacity to wear her complexity on her sleeve. That's what attracted Don to her but also probably what made her un-marriageable in his eyes. It's why I find Don so pathetic: Faye would absolutely have been a healthier choice. She's a cynical, intelligent career woman closer to Don's age and life experience, who demands honesty and directness. He could've had an honest relationship between equals. A wife he respects rather than tolerates. But the part of him who craves real emotional connection (Dick Whitman) lost out to the part that's desperate to prove to society he isn't trash (Don Draper.)

Naturally, where that leads him is isolation, loneliness, and divorce. And, of course, an increasingly depressing spiral of doomed, desperate affairs that - by seasons 6/7 - aren't sexy at all.


Yeah, I agree with all this, and there are a couple of things I'd like to add.

In the last interaction that Don has with Faye before he proposes to Megan, she brings up the fact that he's living under an assumed name and could face prison for his desertion at any time. She encourages him to confront his past and do something about it. And he's rich and has connections, so there's a good chance he could do something about it. Remember in season 6 when he gets Sylvia's kid assigned to a relatively safe role after he gets drafted? But Don is non-committal about addressing it.

Faye was trying to help him be a better person. In long-lasting, healthy relationships, it's common for each partner to push the other to be their best self. She was doing a good thing. But I think it was one of the factors in Don choosing Megan. Megan idolized him. Faye idolizes no one. She knows everyone is flawed, and life never stops being challenging.

I also think that simple sexual and romantic chemistry was very important. Of course, Megan was younger, but she is the same age as Bethany Van Nuys, that young woman he goes on a few awkward dates with, clearly just to get some practice at dating again after years of marriage, with no intention of ending up in a close relationship with her. So it's definitely not just Megan's youth that gives her a sparkle for Don. I think you're right about his romanticizing her as the epitome of the young, liberated 60s woman, but she's also more intuitive, creative, and seductive than Faye. All qualities that Don has. Faye is a good person, but she's a bit cold and analytical. Her personality is more that of a researcher than an artist.

There are two scenes with these characters that contrast them in a way that I think is deliberate. In the first one, Don goes on a date with Faye after the Lucky Strike letter. Her company is no longer working with Don's company, so they can date in public for the first time. They go to a restaurant, and Faye ends up explaining how powerful warm communication can be by telling one of Aesop's fables, The North Wind and the Sun. When she's done, Don playfully says, "So you're saying you want my coat?" And he chivalrously gives the lady his coat. But Faye was NOT coyly asking for Don's coat. She was imparting some knowledge that she considered important.

I contrast this with a moment in the season finale when Don is on the balcony with Megan in her hotel room. It already feels like a romantic moment, with them enjoying the evening view, and then she says, "My elocution teacher said I have the mouth of a singer." It looks a little awkward out of context here, but in the moment in their conversation it is simultaneously classy and seductive. Don correctly interprets this as an invitation to kiss her. Faye could never have pulled that move. It just isn't her personality. The things that Don and Megan have in common make for more exciting courtship than the things that Don and Faye have in common.

Of course, Faye displays more of the qualities that would be great in a long-term partner. But as Faye tells him, he "only likes the beginning of things." And the beginning was just so much more exciting with Megan than it was with Faye.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






pentyne posted:

I wonder if you could conceivably make an argument for the "theme" of each season. I couldn't really think of anything profound but this was the first thing that came to mind.

Season 1 seems like its all about everything being the status quo while showing the rot and decay both morally and professionally that goes on in that business. All the glamour, sexiness and prestige that it comes with is little more then a smokescreen for bad people to do bad things. Nothing is really good or positive and every success comes at a cost for someone. It's very much a "know your place" kind of setting aside from 2 notable exceptions.

Season 2 has more of a focus on progressive attitudes in life, in terms of making change. Peggy and Pete seem to be somewhat upwardly mobile or at least understanding they can't stay the way they were. The season includes bringing in new younger talent with radical ideas. Roger nukes his entire life over deciding to make a fling a permanent thing. Don just walks away for weeks to clear his head and meets with Anna before admitting to Betty he wasn't faithful and wanting to retry having a family. Everyone is trying to make an improvement for the future in their own way, twisted or not.

Yeah this makes sense. The first season is very much white men being unleashed on the young and especially women. I'm thinking of those twins right before Roger's heartattack, what a nasty spectacle that was.

There's a shift in focus in S2 and so far in S3 that allows others to have agency, and things to not be so claustrophobic and expolitative

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Shageletic posted:

Yeah this makes sense. The first season is very much white men being unleashed on the young and especially women. I'm thinking of those twins right before Roger's heartattack, what a nasty spectacle that was.

There's a shift in focus in S2 and so far in S3 that allows others to have agency, and things to not be so claustrophobic and expolitative

I think the question of agency is limited in that for most of the cast they still enjoy the privileged even if limited world they live in. Aside from Peggy and maybe Betty, no one is really willing to challenge the conventions of the day. The thing about Kinsey and MSG is the guy who puts up such a show of having ideals and morals crumbles the moment there is any perceived consequence. For people like Don and Roger, they don't see the consequences as significant enough to change their behavior and keep doing what they want regardless.

It's interesting to look at the show from the perspective of privilege. It takes the main cast so far in so many ways yet can easily prove their undoing as the concept of a consequence isn't in their world view. Pete trying to blackmail and Duck eating poo poo in the meeting are two prime examples of that happening with immediate ramifications. Don's escaped any serious backlash for the most part as his value was always higher to the people who could decide to hurt him, Betty, Bert, Roger etc. Roger, well marrying a 20 year old in 1963 comes with an entirely new set of life problems for the man who thought he'd solved all his issues.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Yoshi Wins posted:

...Faye displays more of the qualities that would be great in a long-term partner. But as Faye tells him, he "only likes the beginning of things." And the beginning was just so much more exciting with Megan than it was with Faye.

[More S4+ chat]
gently caress, I forgot how much that line stabs you when she says it. Because yeah, it's 100% correct and speaks so succinctly to how well Faye understood Don. Also, "you'll be married in less than a year." Ugh, Faye was great, gently caress you Don.

You're right about Megan, of course, but I never thought about that in S4...she seemed so much more one-dimensional, by design. In S5, all the things you're saying about her adept social skills are undeniable, but you're right that the signs are there in S4, as well. That said, I read the S5 scene after the Heinz pitch as Don being surprised by how competent she is, "you're good at all of it!" Her craft and intelligence weren't traits Don expected when he married her.

But your point about Megan idolizing him while Faye idolized no one is a way better way of saying what I wanted to. Because I don't think Don sought out trophy wives on purpose. I think his perception of his inner self is dogshit, that he believes "the real him" is abject trash. So, his choice to marry women who bolster the fiction of Don Draper is way more about self-deception than any kind of cynical self-promotion. Megan sees him as the brilliant creative he pretends to be at work. Faye saw him (accurately) as a panicked mess who stole some dead guy's identity and is lying every day. So, it wasn't just that Faye had "problems," was bad with children or disagreeable or had baggage. She was also too aware of Don's baggage, even if she loved him despite it.

Though Megan does know about Dick Whitman in S5, which was surprising. Incremental change and all that. Too bad he can't be honest with her about losing his loving job...she wouldn't even have cared, but obviously Don cared deeply.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



Xealot posted:

[More S4+ chat]

But your point about Megan idolizing him while Faye idolized no one is a way better way of saying what I wanted to. Because I don't think Don sought out trophy wives on purpose. I think his perception of his inner self is dogshit, that he believes "the real him" is abject trash. So, his choice to marry women who bolster the fiction of Don Draper is way more about self-deception than any kind of cynical self-promotion. Megan sees him as the brilliant creative he pretends to be at work. Faye saw him (accurately) as a panicked mess who stole some dead guy's identity and is lying every day. So, it wasn't just that Faye had "problems," was bad with children or disagreeable or had baggage. She was also too aware of Don's baggage, even if she loved him despite it.


Oh yeah, that's true. In Tomorrowland he tells Megan, "When I'm around you I feel like myself. But the way I always wanted to feel."

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

Coal Jobs for the Coal God



Xealot posted:

[More S4+ chat]

Though Megan does know about Dick Whitman in S5, which was surprising. Incremental change and all that. Too bad he can't be honest with her about losing his loving job...she wouldn't even have cared, but obviously Don cared deeply.

S4 and S5 chat

The best parts of the season 4 rewatch, and why it is my favorite season, it because of things like this. The slow build-up of Megan is absolutely perfect to where you never would expect the marriage proposal and her becoming a central figure in the show, but it all clicks when you go back and watch. It is like she gets one more line every episode until she's not just background fodder.

Secondly, the reveal that Megan knows about Dick Whitman is perfect for the S5 opener. You are giving hope to the viewer that this time, maybe Don has finally learned his lesson and this will be different. And this is also where you get the fat Betty reveal, and it makes the contrast between the two wives of Don Draper even bigger. Makes the "are you alone?" gut punch from the S5 finale hit harder.

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Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



GoutPatrol posted:

S4 and S5 chat

The best parts of the season 4 rewatch, and why it is my favorite season, it because of things like this. The slow build-up of Megan is absolutely perfect to where you never would expect the marriage proposal and her becoming a central figure in the show, but it all clicks when you go back and watch. It is like she gets one more line every episode until she's not just background fodder.

Secondly, the reveal that Megan knows about Dick Whitman is perfect for the S5 opener. You are giving hope to the viewer that this time, maybe Don has finally learned his lesson and this will be different. And this is also where you get the fat Betty reveal, and it makes the contrast between the two wives of Don Draper even bigger. Makes the "are you alone?" gut punch from the S5 finale hit harder.


That final line was such a gut punch, you knew it was coming, the whole season led up to it, but every fibre of my being was hoping it wouldn't happen

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