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Mover
Jun 30, 2008

Goodness no, now that wouldn't do at all!


Jared Harris’ “Happy Christmas” is such a great loving line reading

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JethroMcB
Jan 23, 2004

We're normal now.
We love your family.


pokeyman posted:

Rich Sommer: "Fifteen years ago today, I walked out the side of the elevator set instead of the door, thinking the shot was over. It wasn’t, and if you watch real closely, I sure do walk through the goddamn wall, right there on TV."

No idea what episode this is so I'll spoiler the three second clip in the elevator: https://twitter.com/madmenpics/status/1389179052339175424

Pretty sure it's the pilot, because last week Sommer posted photos from the filming in 2006.

https://twitter.com/richsommer/status/1386678733491171336

In that crappy fluorescent lighting, even in their tailored and perfected costume department outfits, they all just look like young guys who threw on a suit from their closet for a lazy "Mad Men" Halloween costume.

Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.




Love this episode and write up. It’s so remarkable to see how open and vulnerable Don is willing to make himself to Peggy, versus how low and pathetic he gets with Betty. Highlights a lot some of his self loathing for his affairs, I think, and the differences he puts on respect vs adoration - I hesitate to even use “love” with Betty.

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



Definitely one of the best episodes. So much happens and it's so exciting.

Jerusalem posted:

But [Betty] has plenty to add to that rhetorical question, sarcastically asking if she needs to forgive him for never finding HER to be enough for me? Don turns that around into, of course, claiming she got everything she wanted as if showering her with material possessions forgives or even condones his infidelities. He accuses her of being a spoiled brat, asking if he's not good enough, and she hits back just as angrily and just as loudly that that's right. He's not.

To add to this, Don uses a term I haven't seen outside of Mad Men and calls Betty a Main Line brat who thinks he's not good enough for her. Apparently the Main Line region of Philadelphia is where its country club set live(d). There's a class dimension to Don lying to Betty for so long, and it comes up again in the divorce and in her remarriage. He jumps right to this class explanation for why she's leaving him, suggesting that he's always been afraid of her rejecting him because of his impoverished origins. Of course, I believe if Don had told Betty years ago that he came from abject poverty, she would have loved him MORE, not less. The young, still-in-love Betty would have thought, "What an amazing man. Not just handsome, but self-made too!"

But now that Don's years of lies and abuse have curdled their relationship completely, Betty agrees with his assertion that he's not good enough for a Main Liner like her. I do not think she's divorcing him because he used to be very poor, but it is worth noting that Henry Francis seems very well bred, and very well connected. Don doesn't know much about Henry, but he knows enough from his conversation with Roger to realize that Henry was probably born to a higher class than him.

I'm not absolving Don, of course. He's completely at fault for the divorce, and he could have been truthful years earlier. (Shouldn't have cheated a billion times either.) I'm just looking at what was going on inside of Don's psyche that made him feel like he should lie to his wife forever. People have said many times in this thread that Don oscillates between narcissism and self-loathing, and I think the "Main Line brat" exchange reveals how he's been stalked for years by feelings of inadequacy over the humbleness of his origin. "If she discovers who I am, she'll reject me, so I must always present myself as someone else." What a horrible way to live.

Jerusalem posted:

...he goes to see another woman in his life that he HAS taken an interest in helping develop: Peggy Olson.

At her Manhattan apartment, he knocks and asks to come in, ignoring her comment that he looks awful. He takes a seat on the couch, and when she asks if he wants something, he agrees he does... before he does something far too many women of the era never got to experience: he admits she was right. Certainly it was something Archibald never did with Abigail. He doesn't mock her, or angrily and sarcastically agree to do as she says out of bitterness. He simply admits he was wrong, and she was right.

He has taken her for granted. He has been hard on her. And he has, stupidly, seen her only as an extension of himself when she quite clearly is not. All things he should have said to his wife at some point, but never has. She accepts this but clearly isn't moved by it, but when he asks her to sit he does, and then he offers a lesson to go along with his admission of wrongdoing: does she know why he doesn't want to work for McCann?

She assumes he doesn't want to work for anybody, but it's far from that simple. What he says surprises her, and it does move her this time. He doesn't speak about what he does, or what she does, or the genius of their ideas, or the value of their hard work. He laments the loss of identity. There are people out there who buy things, people just like the two of them. But somewhere along the way they stopped being people. They just became... the market. Demographics. The "Consumer". That is a terrible thing, and he knows it, and he knows that she knows it too.

I always thought Don was referencing trauma with this mini "something happened" monologue. He knows that Peggy was emotionally crushed by giving away a baby and that she had to struggle terribly with her self-worth after making that decision. Peggy doesn't know what's in Don's past, but we know there's plenty of trauma there. Kurt, Smitty, and Paul are all so glib about advertising. In fact, most of the industry is glib. But it actually means something to Don and Peggy. Don's work is effective because he knows how to convince consumers that if they buy the product he's selling, it will fill that void in their life. He knows how to do this because he is always trying to fill his own voids. Peggy also understands this need to feel complete, this need to feel whole again.

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

I see past the sham that is society, and I'm into some incredibly fucked up shit.

This episode rules. Can't wait to read the retrospective on the season!

Jerusalem posted:

He demands to know what is going on, and roars that Lane is fired! Fired for costing PPL millions! FIRED FOR INSUBORDINATION! FIRED FOR LACK OF CHARACTER!

"Very good. Happy Christmas," declares Lane without a care in the world

The editing here is a lot of fun. F(cut)ired, F(cut)ired, F(cut)ired! Lane's reaction never fails to get a lol from me

Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.




By the way, early in the write up there’s a bunch of “Roger”s where there should be “Cooper”s

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

I see past the sham that is society, and I'm into some incredibly fucked up shit.

Yoshi Wins posted:


I always thought Don was referencing trauma with this mini "something happened" monologue. He knows that Peggy was emotionally crushed by giving away a baby and that she had to struggle terribly with her self-worth after making that decision. Peggy doesn't know what's in Don's past, but we know there's plenty of trauma there. Kurt, Smitty, and Paul are all so glib about advertising. In fact, most of the industry is glib. But it actually means something to Don and Peggy. Don's work is effective because he knows how to convince consumers that if they buy the product he's selling, it will fill that void in their life. He knows how to do this because he is always trying to fill his own voids. Peggy also understands this need to feel complete, this need to feel whole again.

thrilla in vanilla
Oct 9, 2012





For me personally there’s only one other episode that left me this excited for what came next. This episode is a masterpiece

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001




Yoshi Wins posted:

Apparently the Main Line region of Philadelphia is where its country club set live(d).

The Main Line is still way up there. Lower Merion is like the fifth highest per capita income location in the country. Virtually every township in the corridor has a household income two to four times the Pennsylvania average.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


The season 3 finale should've been when Mad Men went into the stratosphere and become a core part of the conversations for greatest prestige drama ever shown on television. I'm still mad it got screwed out of so many emmys.

thrilla in vanilla
Oct 9, 2012





Thoughts on this episode specifically, Bobby asking if it’s his fault Is heartbreaking but would have been better with my main man Mason Vale.

Definitely enjoy roger instantly being right back on his usual bullshit with Don in the bar

Very few moments as delightful as when Paul realizes his fears of the kids coming up from behind have come true. The song Losing My Edge by lcd sound system is basically the life of Paul Kinsey IMHO

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

Coal Jobs for the Coal God



I love that the divorce chat is yet another example of "shut the door, have a seat" in this episode. Almost every conversation is. And it is certainly something I remember from my own experiences as Bobby's age. Because you are just so oblivious of whatever your parents were thinking.

And I still think Trudy's line calling for Pete from the bedroom is the funniest line of the series. And then the "goodnight trudy" while she's still out of sight. Like its an I Love Lucy episode.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 9, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.


GoutPatrol posted:

I love that the divorce chat is yet another example of "shut the door, have a seat" in this episode. Almost every conversation is. And it is certainly something I remember from my own experiences as Bobby's age. Because you are just so oblivious of whatever your parents were thinking.

And I still think Trudy's line calling for Pete from the bedroom is the funniest line of the series. And then the "goodnight trudy" while she's still out of sight. Like its an I Love Lucy episode.

Pete and Trudy are a better satire of classic TV marriages than Wandavision is.

aBagorn
Aug 26, 2004


Sash! posted:

The Main Line is still way up there. Lower Merion is like the fifth highest per capita income location in the country. Virtually every township in the corridor has a household income two to four times the Pennsylvania average.

yeah gently caress the main line. i used to freelance bartend and doing events for main line folks was always the worst. main line brats indeed. entitled, abusive, and terrible tippers

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

I see past the sham that is society, and I'm into some incredibly fucked up shit.

thrilla in vanilla posted:

Losing My Edge by lcd sound system is basically the life of Paul Kinsey IMHO

Don = All My Friends
Roger = Sound of Silver
Peggy = You Wanted A Hit

Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



aBagorn posted:

yeah gently caress the main line. i used to freelance bartend and doing events for main line folks was always the worst. main line brats indeed. entitled, abusive, and terrible tippers

Hah, perfect. So when Betty chastises Don for tipping the Italian bellhop $2, it shows that the writers did their homework.

The Klowner
Apr 20, 2019

I see past the sham that is society, and I'm into some incredibly fucked up shit.

Slightly more spoilery:

Pete = New York I Love You
Lane = North American Scum
Harry = One Touch
Joan = Time to Get Away
Abe = Pow Pow
Ted = American Dream

The Klowner fucked around with this message at 23:46 on May 3, 2021

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk


The Klowner posted:

Slightly more spoilery:

Pete = New York I Love You
Lane = North American Scum
Harry = One Touch
Joan = Time to Get Away
Abe = Pow Pow
Ted = American Dream


Ginsberg = Daft Punk are playing in my nipple (so i cut it off)

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



I'm loving Hyped for Season 4. I'm just gonna re-watch the whole season over again.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Yoshi Wins posted:

I always thought Don was referencing trauma with this mini "something happened" monologue. He knows that Peggy was emotionally crushed by giving away a baby and that she had to struggle terribly with her self-worth after making that decision. Peggy doesn't know what's in Don's past, but we know there's plenty of trauma there. Kurt, Smitty, and Paul are all so glib about advertising. In fact, most of the industry is glib. But it actually means something to Don and Peggy. Don's work is effective because he knows how to convince consumers that if they buy the product he's selling, it will fill that void in their life. He knows how to do this because he is always trying to fill his own voids. Peggy also understands this need to feel complete, this need to feel whole again.

I definitely think there is an unspoken element/acknowledgement that both of them have suffered trauma and learned how to use that effectively in their work. But I do think his speech to Peggy is a lament to the changing nature of the advertising business (or at least his image of it/what he wants it to be), and an acknowledgement that she and he are "better" than those who look at people as simply numbers on a balance sheet.

Her best and most effective campaigns are those where she speaks to some "truth" for the person who will be seeing it/hearing it, and those are the ones he has encouraged her to pursue. Where he has offered disappointment or criticized her are those times when she has been more cynical, when she has followed guidelines written in books that assume the "consumer" is a monolithic identity rather than a collection of individuals they somehow have to find a way to reach.

He finds that attempt to touch people the most rewarding and exciting part of his process. Look at that incredible Carousel pitch at the end of season 1, where he taps into the power of memory by using imagery from his own family and past. He detests those who dismiss or lump together people as nothing more than groups to be exploited. Make no mistake, he is exploiting them too, but he sees his own work as reaching people while the work of others is somehow soulless. That is the way he sees the advertising industry going and he hates it: look at how offended he was by Duck's push to turn Sterling Cooper into a company that succeeded by sheer magnitude. PPL nickel-and-diming everything, McCann being a sausage factory etc... it's got no heart.

He sees soul in Peggy's work. He sees heart. When she tells him "sex sells" he complains that she is regurgitating books written by people who assume ANYBODY can do what they do. Not anybody can, of course, and for him she is one of the few who - like him - can - look how quickly she moves from using sex appeal in the Mohawk airlines ad, to trying to target Don by offering,"I missed you daddy" to hitting a connection far more powerful with,"What did you bring me, daddy?" - she gets how people think, how they feel, and what will touch them.

So when he tells her he needs her, and hasn't appreciated her, and he will spend the rest of his life trying to convince her to work alongside (not for, with) him... yeah underlying all that is their mutual knowledge of her trauma, and his own obvious but unknown (to her) trauma that helps him to feel a connection to her... but it's also a nod of mutual respect and recognition of a peer, a valued colleague whose work he admires and values, and somebody whom he wants to share his philosophy with because he feels she already on some level is practicing it.

Their respective traumas help them to connect to people, and to each other, but when he speaks about the terrible thing that happened, I really do think he's talking about what the advertising industry has become (is becoming, may honestly always have been) and how he wants her to join him in trying to do something better. To be something better. It's a goddamn beautiful scene, making his inability to connect or be as open with his wife all the more frustrating.

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 07:15 on May 4, 2021

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



"He sees soul in Betty's work. He sees heart. When she tells him "sex sells" he complains that she is regurgitating books written by people who assume ANYBODY can do what they do. Not anybody can, of course, and for him she is one of the few who - like him - can."

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Every loving time

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004




Jerusalem posted:


He sees soul in Betty's work. He sees heart.

Of all the seasons to make this typo after


Also I know I'm not saying anything original here, but it must be acknowledged how disgustingly charming John Slattery is in this show (and possibly irl, I've never met him). Roger's such a slimy little worm when you take three seconds to think about his behavior, but he oozes that kind of easy wit and charisma that just makes you want to like him anyway, and Slattery's delivery is perfect for it. I particularly love him in the gallows humor moments, it would be so easy to gently caress those lines up and make the character feel corny, but he makes it look very natural and believable.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


It also makes those moments when he is genuine stand out all the more. When he realizes his slip in mentioning Henry Francis, he starts to say that he was going to tell Don, then just stops himself and admits that is bullshit and he was never going to do that if it hadn't come up, and then offers an utterly heartfelt sorry to Don, commiserating with him as a fellow man and a fellow human being.

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 00:53 on May 4, 2021

insideoutsider
Aug 31, 2003

You want a van? I get you a van.

I like how Lane's accent makes it sound like he's saying "Sin Jin" when addressing Saint John Powell. British people sound neat!

Sally's line "I only want ONE Christmas" was great. Kiernan Shipka is tremendous in that scene.

Torquemada
Oct 21, 2010

Drei Gläser


insideoutsider posted:

I like how Lane's accent makes it sound like he's saying "Sin Jin" when addressing Saint John Powell. British people sound neat!

Annoyingly, this is how it’s actually pronounced, one of our little tricks to confuse the colonials. James Bond takes on the identity of ‘Saint John-Smythe’ in ‘A View to a Kill’.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk


Marjoribanks is marshbanks
Beauchamp is beecham
Leicester is lester
Gloucester is gloster
Worcestershire is worstershir

Torquemada
Oct 21, 2010

Drei Gläser


Featherstonehalgh is Fanshawe
Cholmondeley is Chumly
Caius is Keys
Magdalene is Mordlin
We just do this poo poo so we can tell if you belong or not.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005







How much of this is the influence of the perfidious Welsh

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk


Torquemada posted:

Featherstonehalgh is Fanshawe

that was the one i was trying to remember, ty

completely fuckin bonkers i mean wtf

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

Coal Jobs for the Coal God



insideoutsider posted:

I like how Lane's accent makes it sound like he's saying "Sin Jin" when addressing Saint John Powell. British people sound neat!

Sally's line "I only want ONE Christmas" was great. Kiernan Shipka is tremendous in that scene.

wait I thought this was like a boarding school nickname this whole time. That is how british people pronounce it?

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk


GoutPatrol posted:

wait I thought this was like a boarding school nickname this whole time. That is how british people pronounce it?

^

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

Coal Jobs for the Coal God



the inscrutable isles have got me again

Torquemada
Oct 21, 2010

Drei Gläser


Honest, Sinjun.

a new study bible!
Feb 1, 2009



BIG DICK NICK
A Philadelphia Legend
Fly Eagles Fly



The Klowner posted:

Slightly more spoilery:

Pete = New York I Love You
Lane = North American Scum
Harry = One Touch
Joan = Time to Get Away
Abe = Pow Pow
Ted = American Dream


Megan- Dance Yourself Clean

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004




sebmojo posted:

Marjoribanks is marshbanks
Beauchamp is beecham
Leicester is lester
Gloucester is gloster
Worcestershire is worstershir

ma'am is mom

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Finally caught up and don't have much to say, Yoshi pretty said everything I wanted to say. Loved the back and forth with Jerusalem regarding the Peggy/Don scene. It's one of my favorite things about Mad Men. The dialogue is so abstract, so rich with meaning, with so many layers, and said in so few words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm47jAuaajQ

No other show like it.

One additional thing tho. I'm really interested in that bifurcation between what Don adores and what he respects mentioned earlier. Things he adores, his family life, Betty as a mother, the concept of advertising as a balm or even a cure to social ills, the upper crust he finds himself increasingly in, is always undercut by his huge vein of cynicism and pessimism that's almost fatalistic in scope. Things he respects, Peggy, work, Rachel Menken...

But writing that I don't quite believe its a bifurcation at all. It's just a matter of how much Don likes a thing, and how afraid he's going to screw it up. His family life, Betty, his unique rise in society are all so important to him, so essential to his ego. Peggy is a underling/mentee, work he knows is good at, women the same. he doesn't need to lie...much.

it's just a portrait of someone with crippling self doubt. I've never gotten that, like a bunch youtube comments always go on about, that Don is a sociopath. He's an emotionally crippled man whose not capable/willing to fix himself...yet...

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






and oh yeah Jerusalem, now that you're onto Season 4, how do you rank Mad men in the great scheme of Shows. Was it better/worse than you expected? You're always so careful in your reviews to not just blurt out your opinion of its quality. Well, not overtly.

Mr. Fall Down Terror
Jan 24, 2018


GoutPatrol posted:

wait I thought this was like a boarding school nickname this whole time. That is how british people pronounce it?

yep. at work one of our clients is a Saint John and the account manager had to sit everyone down and clue them in to pronounce it "Sin Jin" because we kept loving it up like boorish americans and it was low key pissing him off. one engineer was being overly chummy and just kept calling him "Saint"

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Yoshi Wins
Jul 14, 2013



Shageletic posted:

The dialogue is so abstract, so rich with meaning, with so many layers, and said in so few words.

I think they do a great job taking recognizable conflicts, like trying to get recognition at work, and having them play out in conversations that are more concentrated and more intense than the ones that usually happen in real life. The show has a high degree of emotional verisimilitude, but everything is heightened.

Shageletic posted:

It's just a matter of how much Don likes a thing, and how afraid he's going to screw it up. His family life, Betty, his unique rise in society are all so important to him, so essential to his ego. Peggy is a underling/mentee, work he knows is good at, women the same. he doesn't need to lie...much.

it's just a portrait of someone with crippling self doubt. I've never gotten that, like a bunch youtube comments always go on about, that Don is a sociopath. He's an emotionally crippled man whose not capable/willing to fix himself...yet...

Yeah, I think we see this especially with Anna. He just seems like a normal, decent guy when he's with her. She already knows his secrets and has already forgiven him for the thing he did that affected her. There's nothing to fear.

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