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KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

God Hole posted:

with peggy i always just figured she didn't have a whole lot of experience contending with male attention before sterling cooper. i always really liked trudy in my original viewing, but i never stopped to consider what it was about pete that had her so enamored - her meeting with the publisher indicates she didn't have that problem though. i'm going to be stewing over this for a while i think.

So Pete has always been my favorite character. He is a weird mix of cynical and naive. Like he's the one who is like we should sell to black people because no one is taking their money, we should get there first. And doesn't understand why someone else would let racism get in the way of making money. Also he suggest Joan sleep with Herb, but he is straight forward about it. And Joan's response to Bob asking her if she doesn't like Pete is "well... he's never lied to me." He basically enters the room and says "Hi, I'm Pete Campbell and I'm here to be a slimey poo poo heal" and well at least he warned you he was gonna do that. Which makes him en excellent contrast to Sterling or Don who charm folks before doing something awful and lovely.

Trudy's family struck me as more new money or at least newer money than Pete. When Trudy is talking to the board of the new apartment, the way she talks about Pete's family reminded me of the way someone might talk about pedigree show dog. So I always figured that was the appeal of Pete. The idea of her being a part of one of the old new york families appeals to her. And from Signal 30, it's clear she likes history because she talks about her and Pete's home the way she talked about Pete to the board.

And I think Trudy wanting the picture of perfect marriage and using Pete of all people to get it makes her also a weird mix of cynical and naive. That's why they are the perfect for each other in a terrible way.

KellHound fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Oct 19, 2020

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KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Xealot posted:

This makes as much sense as anything. It never fully gelled with me why Trudy was so interested in Pete in the first place...even early on, she's portrayed as extremely savvy, so I can't imagine she was ever some naive debutante who was starry-eyed about a Dyckman looking her way. But I could see her having this more cynical take, looking at Pete's family as a means to an end.

Yeah. Pete's family is a means to an end, also Pete isn't slick. He is someone she can maneuver. He is easier to read then some of his old money peers. Which is where her cynicism lies. Her naivete is in well... being surprised by how everything turned out.

Edit: Also gonna add Trudy being cynical makes her an excellent foil for Betty. They have the same goal of the picture perfect family. But Betty is completely naive about it and goes for Don who superficial matches all those things. Trudy knows it's more about appearances. And it shows in how both women eventually confront their husbands about failing to hold up their end of the perfect picture. Both get told they can't know or prove anything about the cheating. Betty backs down a bit. Because if there is no cheating she would be the one breaking things. Trudy tells Pete she basically doesn't care that she doesn't have proof, the fact that the image is broken is what matters to her. She knew that image was fake, but wanted the image.

KellHound fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Oct 19, 2020

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Solkanar512 posted:

Christ, what a miserable existence.

And pretty on par with all the other characters in Mad Men.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

lurker2006 posted:

A pretty oderous opinion but she did kind of come off like that a lot of the time, or if not humorless just kind of a dork. To make a larger point I don't think the show ever really properly demonstrated her spark for creative, at least not enough to justify the amount of time she's treated like an advertising prodigy. I compare her to other women like Joan, Megan, Faye, Don's other mistresses, and even Betty as much as she had devolved into the house wife role, and Peggy seems uncultured and dull, overshadowed by any personality she's in the room with. Maybe that's the point, an average girl like her has such a leg up because she was able to get a foot into the man's world and out of the secretary straight jacket.

I disagree. I think when her and Paul compete and Paul forgets his idea, and him forgetting his idea sparks her imagination, when she does the virgin mary popcycle ad, her changing the hard days night ad on the spot, and her going with the actor rocking out to headphones all show she has a creative flexibility others lack until Ginsberg shows up. Which is why Ginsberg is the closest to threatening Peggy's position.

I also think, part of it is Peggy's age which you might forget as the show goes on because Elizabeth Moss is older than Peggy. Like Ted says during the merger that Peggy isn't even 30 but is in a highish potion. A lot of the guys working with her at the begining are older than her and by the middle the guys under her are the same age as her.

Side note: In the commentary of the episode where Paul and Peggy compete, the guy who plays Paul asked for guidence on how to say his "oh my god" reaction to Peggy immediately coming up with an idea based on his lack of an idea. The director told him "That's when he realized he's bad at his job"

KellHound fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Oct 20, 2020

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Forktoss posted:

The video's blocked for me but I'm guessing this is the Heinz Ketchup pitch. I have to say that always falls a bit flat for me for whatever reason. It's the first time Don and Peggy directly compete with each other, and Peggy even wins, but somehow it doesn't feel big enough. Maybe it's because we see much more of the preparation and build-up towards Don's pitch before Ted and Peggy swoop in out of the blue. (Which is probably the point and you're supposed to feel deflated by it, but that emotional beat works for Don's story at that point more than Peggy's.) She has plenty of other great and well-earned moments though, Burger Chef for one (I mean she even steals her neighbour's kid for that pitch).

Peggy doesn't win that pitch. A big 3rd company does. It's partly why Ted agrees to the merger. Companies keep pitting the tiny companies against each other to see their ideas and then give it to a bigger company

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Forktoss posted:

That's Chevrolet, not Heinz, isn't it?

It's both. After Heinz, Ted and Peggy come to drink and ask if they can join the lonely hearts club. Don and Pete say how do you know we aren't celebrating, and Ted say Obery (i don't know how to spell it) does and Heinz bought it in the room. It is part of the build up to Ted wanting the merger because he assumes the same thing will happen with Chevy.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Pete is also the one who points out Elvis doesn't were a hat and the appeal of Kennedy's youth, which everyone dismisses.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

MightyJoe36 posted:

Back when it originally aired on AMC, pretty much every "On the next Mad Men" preview was like this.

My favorite Episode Description is "Peggy helps Ginsberg with a problem" for the episode where ginsberg has his breakdown claiming computers are making people gay so him and peggy need to reproduce

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Yoshi Wins posted:

they actually started setting up his schizophrenia from early in season 5. In a scene that is very poignant in retrospect, he tells Peggy he has a paranoid suspicion that his father is not who he says he is. He also claims to be a Martian who received a message from Mars to stay where he is, but that heís been unable to find any other Martians. Peggy assumes heís expressing some angst in a creative way. Heís actually displaying early symptoms of schizophrenia, but he just happens to come across as a quirky creative guy.

They drop other hints too. He makes some paranoid remarks in season 6 and I think he says something about his head buzzing after he has a moral dilemma about SCDP working for Dow.

But he does go from about a 5/10 to a 10/10 on the madness scale in a single episode, thatís true. Maybe thatís how it works though? I donít know too much about how those symptoms progress in real life.


He also has a sensory issue before his break down. Like even as he is making more money at his job, his clothes are always 4 sizes too big so they won't touch his skin and his reaction to the "this band is like the beatles" is fairly extreme. So the constant humming of the computer being what ups his his mental health problem lines up with the stuff before. Then there is his break down before the last Manshevic meeting. "Come on, Buddy, you're not death."

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

I think it's less those shows get made with the time they come out in mind. But instead them reflecting those themes help them connect with people more. It makes them become a hit rather than a have a cult following. Like Parks and Rec doesn't really become a hit until it starts presenting caring good people in government and cheering Leslie on. That tone for a show wouldn't really go over well now.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

pokeyman posted:

Ted Lasso feels like a similarly positive/caring tone and is a big hit?

I haven't seen it but based on the premise summary I'm finding, Ted doesn't work the government. I'm not saying positivity and caring won't work now, but that the government is run by good people trying to do good won't work now.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

I'm also gonna add a counter example. Mission Hill is a really good show, but a lot of what it's about reflects better on right now rather than early 2000s when it came out. And while it's quick with it's writing and has a unique world view, it didn't go longer than a season. If it came out now would have probably done better or at least well enough to get renewed a couple of times.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

JethroMcB posted:

See, I think the show could only work when it did, because in 2020 the Mission Hills of American cities have largely been gentrified to hell and back. The creators have said that, had the show continued, the long-term plot was for Andy to achieve Matt Groening-level success as a cartoonist, becoming absolutely miserable and jaded in the process. With that kind of cynicism so entrenched in the show's DNA, I suspect a running background plot about the gradual death of the neighborhood would've been in there as well.

While I don't disagree that those things are baked into the show, I think they would resinate more now because of that. Gentrification gets talked about more in media. But apparently a spin off series about Gus and Wally is in development. If it gets made, we'll find out.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Jerusalem posted:

Smitty's claim it was a letter sent by a buddy for seemingly personal reasons.

Oh it was sent for personal reasons. Those reasons being he hates Smitty. I love that "Does your friend know what you do for a living?" "Yeah, uh there was a lovely note with it"

Smitty basically got a letter from this guy telling him he is awful and everything wrong in the world, and then Smitty uses that to make a jiggle. :P

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Is it because of martinis? Those are kinda sterotypical for uppercrust partiers like Roger? Or Roger doesn't have to maintain the masculine image as much as Don because he's not a fraud? Roger is very transparent in what he wants and does.

Could also be because it's easier to water them down/get clients wasted while he's sober

KellHound fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Dec 28, 2020

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

So "fun" fact from the episode commentary on the DVDs, Betty breaking the chair is based off one member of the writer's room childhood memories. They remembered their mom taking her frustration out on an imperfect chair after finding out about an affair.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

pentyne posted:

Did the show have any sponsored placements? I remember later in the show the brands would make jokes on twitter whenever they'd get featured in an unflattering light.

I remember Matthew Weiner saying somewhere that sponsorship went along the lines of if they wanted to be in the show, the show had to be able to do whatever they wanted with your product was part of the deal.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Yoshi Wins posted:

Yeah, Don definitely thinks he can fake it until he makes it.

I think a central thesis of the show is that emotional authenticity is good. That it's necessary for strong healthy relationships, which are necessary for happiness. So Don's approach... is questionable!

This is also one of the subtler social changes the show depicts. People of this time became more interested in "being themselves", whatever that meant. And while Mad Men does criticize some of the excesses of the "Me" generation, I think it depicts this as a positive change in American culture, compared to the world of the 1950s, where people faced enormous pressure to conform tightly to very prescribed social roles. Peggy, for example, feels like the hero of the show, and she has no rulebook to follow, and must invent her own path based on what feels right.

While Peggy's the hero making her own way, the other important character besides her and Don is Pete. And a lot of his unhappiness can be chalked up to him being forced into a role. His parents are disappointed with him not fitting into what they want him to be. Trudy wants them to start on a family that he's clearly not ready for. He says his woods fantasy with a woman cooking the animal he hunted but a big part of that fantasy is there is no society telling him what to do and be.

Peggy has no rulebook to follow, Pete feels crushed by his rule book.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Pete's my favorite because he is weirdly cynical and naive at the same time. Like cynical about business and good at seeing treads, but so bad at individuals. Like he understands that Kennedy has youth appeal (the comparing him to Elvis as response to "he doesn't wear a hat") and understands Trudy sleeping with a guy could get him published, but doesn't understand why Trudy would object to prostituting herself for his ego.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

I also like that because he is so bad at people, he is incapable of hiding who much a shitheal and sad bitter little man he is. And it makes him a great contrast to Don and Roger who impress folks with charm and an act. He basically enters the room and says "hello i'm here to do lovely things"

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Yoshi Wins posted:

Nice analysis! I feel like they're daring us to sympathize with him. He's so privileged and such an rear end in a top hat, but we are shown how he ended up so emotionally disturbed. The thing is, though, he could have gotten away if he really wanted to. Just left New York and got a job somewhere not using his connections, and then he would have been his own man. The less privileged characters have fewer options.

He is so happy in California after his mom died! Then he comes back to New York and it all falls apart. Also, I do think in the end him moving to Kansas with Trudy is him finally realizing to let go of what makes him unhappy and move on from it.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Jerusalem, without spoiling anything, I can't wait for you to get to Margret's wedding episode.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Gaius Marius posted:

nope that's Jane and rogers wedding, Margaret's is the Kennedy assassination

That's not Jane and Roger's wedding. It's Roger just having a party the day of the Kentucky Derby, it's refered to as a "derby day party"

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Sash! posted:

Possibly Don had some unspoken regret about it that made him think it was a mistake when he did that with Sal and that's one reason why he was the most opposed to Joan being used the same way.

No, HE wanted to be the one to win the business, not Joan. He can pretend that it's about being chivalrous to Joan at first, but it's very clearly about his ego in every interaction he has with Jaguar guy.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

BrotherJayne posted:

That's not the read I had. Was pretty drunk the first watchthrough tho, so will reassess

I think it's not clear in the episode on it's own, but it becomes increasingly clear with his interactions with the Jaguar guy. Every clash they have is an ego fight. Joan even calls him on it in the episode when Don "fires" Jaguar

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Yoshi Wins posted:

I really love Peggy asking for the office right after her greatest success yet. When Freddy got fired, Pete said she could end up with his office, and she just didn't respond to that. She was saying other things to him about how he stabbed Freddy in the back, and she just ignored the part about how she could have his office. She wanted it. But not like that. Really makes her a character we can root for. She doesn't want it handed to her. She wants to earn it.

I think I love every scene with Peggy and Roger. They are small but they usually when she has her best moments.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

I love Ken's tapdance and Cooper's the best things in life are free. But I also like Pete and Trudy's dance together at the derby day party.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Jerusalem posted:

There is so much to unpack in his "My God." The cynical take would be that he thinks Peggy has gone it again, she's taken his idea and put her little "twirl" on it it and gotten all the credit from Don for being his favorite. She pretended sympathy and then "stole" from him. The more positive take, and the one I choose to believe, is that this was a Road to Damascus moment for Paul.

I have the Bluerays and the commentary of this episode talks about Paul's actor asked for direction on his "my god." He was told "this is the moment Paul realizes he is bad at his job"

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

The commentaries are very good. There is one episode that has a long tangent about LA Noir because Ken and Paul's actors were both in it.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

I just realized which episode is next and I'm very excited for some of the absurdity in it!

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

I just love Margret's wedding. Just the disaster of getting married that day. It was a wonderful choice!

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

A friend of mine wrote an article that was him watching the premier of mad men season 6 without having seen any of what came before. Kinda, what is it like to come into late mad men cold. Then after he wrote his review, I watched the first episode with him. The contrast between the premier and season 6 episode one is what made him watch the rest of the series. He wasn't really interested in it before then, but the question of how the hell you get from season 1 to season 6 was something they wanted to see.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Shageletic posted:

Got a link to that article that seems interesting.

https://www.wired.com/2013/04/mad-men-season-six-premiere/ Here. My friend transitioned after writing this article. So it's credited under his deadname. He goes by Jay now. Also, me and him watched all of Mad Men together shortly this article came out. And watched season 7 together.

Oh and this episode being his first has made them say "I think I love Stan more than warrented because my intro to him was his joke in the season 6 premier" aka the "does this make you think of suicide?" "Of coarse! That's what makes it great"

Edit: I reread the article and forgot that he refers to Pete as "Connor from Angel" :P

KellHound fucked around with this message at 15:48 on May 6, 2021

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Mad Men is a show I can honestly talk about for hours and hours. I'm glad my bud watched the rest with me after this writing that article. He also made me a book jacket that is a 60s style penguin paperback cover for "The Man with the Miniature Orchestra" by Dave Algonquin

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

The Klowner posted:

lmao that's awesome. post a link

Here's a crappy photo. It's getting kinda old. I might frame it so it doesn't get in rougher shape

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Xealot posted:

I definitely see Stan having an existential freakout over the vacuum of meaning he's fallen into at McCann. After a few years, I picture him having a full midlife crisis and quitting his job to make some late-70's countercultural zine or something.

Stan for all his counter culture exterior, is cool with making an pro-kkk political ad (he's shows it off when he is first hired). He doesn't really have strong political beliefs which is why he is well suited to advertising. He likes being creative but doesn't really care about what message he is putting out. It is why he sticks around longer than megan and ginsberg. And why he sticks by Peggy rather than someone like Abe. I think he'll stick in advertising as long as he can work with Peggy. Peggy doesn't care much about working at McCann because she took the advise to heart of (work there a couple of years then use it to get a raise elsewhere). I assume Stan will probably follow her where ever she ends up next. He is a looking for fun more than meaning.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

My money is on Cooper because he is out there all the time and we do have him commenting on what reception should look like later in the show. "They can see her from the elevator"

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Jerusalem posted:

Pete not being able to resist rubbing it in really says so much about him. He's very much a sore winner, especially considering he was born into a level of privilege most people could only ever dream of.

That said, it is interesting considering that Roger and Pete essentially had very similar upbringing (Roger's dad was "new money" as far as I can tell?) with the major difference being that Roger served in World War 2 and gets to be lauded for that, while Pete was too young for Korea and is obviously (unless poo poo REALLY goes sideways for him, and hell I have no idea what is coming) going to be protected from ever having to go to Vietnam, and he's probably simultaneously relieved and feels guilty about the fact he won't ever have that "legitimacy" that Roger and even Don have.

I think another major difference is Roger's father died when he was young (young like teen or early twenties). At least that was my take away when Cooper talked to his sister about having promised to take care of Roger. And it seems like Roger got along with/was spoiled by his parents. That relationship definitely has a big impact on the difference between them.

KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Jerusalem posted:

Yeah, I'm really interested in if his loving about in Europe was before or after his father's death. I get the impression it might have been before his father's death, and since then he's kind of been caught between his successes as an "adult" mixed with the belief that most everything he has in his life wasn't REALLY earned or that he got there by standing on the shoulders of giants. His own peculiar version of imposter syndrome, I guess. He talks about it a bit in season 1, about going back in history and always finding the previous generation complaining about the current or the next, and it comes out in later episodes where he tells Cooper he knows he looks down on him (which really means Roger looks down on himself) for not experiencing the Clutch Plague. Kind of like how Don admitted that the Korean veterans didn't get the same "glory" as the WW2 guys did (and boy howdy are the Vietnam vets in for a bad time).

Yeah, Roger has his own insecurities. But like parents spoiling/being supportive of Roger, I think means Roger while with imposter syndrome, knows how to foster a relationship at least on a superficial level. And he also never really thinks about life being unfair. From his POV, if something doesn't go his way, it's because he didn't foster a relationship or didn't try hard enough.

I think part of why Pete is more liberal if that his parents hating him and blatantly favoring his brother made him see unfairness (in his limited over privileged way). So he hears the world is unfair and then civil right come around and he's like "yeah, it IS unfair" while not realizing that he isn't the one getting the short end of the stick.

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KellHound
Jul 23, 2007

I commend my soul to any god that can find it.

Yoshi Wins posted:

Weiner comes across as charming in every interview, but the writers who have worked with him paint a picture of him as a tremendous rear end in a top hat. A lot of people compare him to Don, actually.

Kater Gordonís accusation is the only sexual harassment allegation against him that I know of, so that particular transgression is probably not one he does often, but another member of the writing staff said that even though she had never seen Weiner sexually harass anyone, she believed Gordon because Weiner is ďan emotional terroristĒ and that you never know whatís real and when heís loving with you.

Itís interesting because I find this show to be very compassionate. People truly do contain multitudes. And, of course, he didnít make Mad Men by himself.

Was that Marti Noxon? Because I know that she also said that she hadn't witnessed it but believes Gordon. I think she called him a control freak, but hadn't heard the emotional terrorist part.

Him getting compared to Don makes sense. In the commentaries on the blueray, he says a couple of iffy things. Like defending some of the iffier consent parts (Like Pete and the neighbors nanny) or when Don is rougher with women he is like "a lot of women like this". They are phrased in a way that you could chalk up to a writer has to know every characters pov and understand it if you didn't know about Gordon.

Edit: Also Marti Noxon going from Whedon as a show runner to Weiner as a show runner makes me think she is a lady made of steal.

KellHound fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Jun 28, 2021

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