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Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Gaius Marius posted:

drat I was planning on watching along, but I'm already half way through season 2. Having the discipline to only watch an episode at a time is something I clearly lack.

Hobo code was pretty goodI was really surprised how much of the things that happened in season six and seven were set up by the first season.

You wanna get more into this, of course with spoilers.

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Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Incelshok Na posted:

I'm really conflicted about the Don-as-serial-killer line they dropped. You can still see a lot of it in S4. It would have been a . . . very different show. Dextermania was a part of the zeitgeist in weird ways because it was such a mediocre show.

what what what?!??! where did you get this.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






sebmojo posted:

mcbain.gif

if there's a joke i don't get it, so i guess i deserve that?

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Cannot more disagree about that

by the middle section of the show Peggy had a velvet smooth presentation style that shrewdly played on the psychology of the client in the room. It wasnt Don's alpha domineering thing, it was a more gentle, yet insistent pitching style that absolutely showed why she was so valued.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






I mean look at this clip, and tell me she's not good at her job

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4LHb89pAlA&ab_channel=rcmiv

e: or this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIIB_YTzxNc&ab_channel=--

Shageletic fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Oct 21, 2020

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Forktoss posted:

The video's blocked for me but I'm guessing this is the Heinz Ketchup pitch. I have to say that always falls a bit flat for me for whatever reason. It's the first time Don and Peggy directly compete with each other, and Peggy even wins, but somehow it doesn't feel big enough. Maybe it's because we see much more of the preparation and build-up towards Don's pitch before Ted and Peggy swoop in out of the blue. (Which is probably the point and you're supposed to feel deflated by it, but that emotional beat works for Don's story at that point more than Peggy's.) She has plenty of other great and well-earned moments though, Burger Chef for one (I mean she even steals her neighbour's kid for that pitch).

Its the Heinz pitch.The way I saw it, Draper's pitch was better. But more importantly, Peggy's is more like what the client WANTED.

The client deflates Don's pitch asking about where the bottle is, and Peggy comes in with a pitch with it as its center, right on cue, also mirroring Heinz desire to beat its then biggest rival, catsup.

Don's pitch is light-years ahead, evincing a modern and brilliant approach that is at least 3 decades too soon (Heinz actually used his pitch in a campaign in 2017, giving credit to Mad Men writing staff for the idea). But Peggy gives people what they want at the time.

And in business, the latter tends to win out.

Of course the bigger firm won just based on its size, which is even more how these things shake out.

E: to extend it further, Don challenged his clients with his confident and status shaking ideas.

Peggy shrewdly played on their psychology, being whoever and whatever they wanted her to be.

E2: but they both heavily played on nostalgia. Which makes sense they're mentor/mentee.

Its a dated approach that gets swamped by an ironic/meta approach to advertising in recent times. I can imagine a 60 year old Peggy in the 90s being at a loss what the culture accepts as advertising.

Shageletic fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Oct 21, 2020

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Jerusalem posted:

More than that, though, he had "moved up a notch": like Roger he had come to the realization that death is inevitable, and that he was moving ever closer to his own.


Been doing a deep dive on Mad Men clips on youtube based on this thread (please Jerusalem make your posts as long as possible, I love em).

Came across the scene in S7 when Draper joined that huge meeting of Creative Heads for the Milwakee Beer pitch. So much happening in that scene, like research running it and taking up his mantle as head bullshiter, Shaugh acknowledging him and being wistfully envious about his fleeing, etc, etc.

But you know whats the first thing that soured the whole meeting for Draper and started the steps he would take to flee from Mccann and end up in California?

When one of the other suits asks Shaugh if he and Draper were ready to "move [Mccann] up a notch".

This loving show.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Come to think of it, Research's analysis of the death drive pretty much is the engine Mad Men runs on from start to finish.

e: as far as Don's quests and resulting need for emotional catharsis goes, remember who his first lover was.

Don's on an eternal search for a mother/lover.

This post is extremely Freud as gently caress


e: Hey Jeruselem I know you're perusing the thread right now, hope I didn't spoil anything with my spoiler snafu earlier.

Shageletic fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Oct 25, 2020

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Yoshi Wins posted:

Absolultely. He wanted to create a perfect image for all of society to see, and so he married a woman who looks A LOT like Grace Kelly. I actually think it's relevant to Don's character how much January Jones looks like Grace Kelly. It suggests he thought 2 things. One: "My life should look like the movies." And two: "When everything LOOKS perfect, everything will BE perfect."

I do think there's a universe where Don and Betty are happy together. It's one where they don't have kids and they just live glamorously. Remember the season 3 episode where they go to Rome together? They have fun looking the part of beautiful American millionaires. Then they get back to the suburbs and their three kids, and Betty doesn't disguise the fact that she's immediately miserable again. They should have never had kids. But it's just like you said: They were doing what they were expected to do. If they didn't have kids, people would ask questions about that. It wouldn't have looked right, so it had to be done.

I do think they love their kids (despite what Don says in a drunken and self-loathing scene in season 6), but they're not really fit parents and they would have been better off just being a vain, rich, glamorous couple.


But wasn't that just what the Jet Set people were doing in California, something that Don definitively rejected as meaningless and without purpose? Don needed to start a family as a way to redeem or get past his own damaged childhood, even though he was completely lovely at it. Being eternally childless and without any responsibility? I don't think that his sort of escapism.

It was recreating the family, the life, that he always wanted. To aspire to something he could claim as good. Its the heart of his motivation, and his self loathing, his success in business, and his whole life really.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






HppyCmpr posted:

I could be wrong but I feel like Kennedy is one of the first examples where the president was marketed more as a product than as a policy mouthpiece of the party. It has been a while since I've studied US politics and history though, so I could be forgetting earlier examples.

Also make your write-ups as long as you like, I very much enjoy reading them and you have a great level of insight.

Eh Lincoln chopping wood, Andrew Jackson fighting Indians, actually we had a string of Presidents in the 1840s that were seen as Indian fighters/genociders.

Its always been a product. The first real competition btw Jefferson and Adams was a matter of who was meaner.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






MightyJoe36 posted:

Yeah, television really changed the whole campaign landscape. Eisenhower was the first president to use TV as a medium to reach the voters. IIRC, Kennedy/Nixon was the first televised debate.

I'm trying to remember this book I read in poli sci, a fictional take about the handover of machine style politics to one dominated by TV. I can't remember!

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Another great ep firmly setting Mad Men as the best work politics drama ever.

also the best drama ever.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Hey Jerusalem theres alot of great stuff online when it comes to production design and Mad Men, people like Jane Bryant (who designed the costumes) and Matthew Weiner's near obsessive attn to detail

quote:

One of the keys to “Mad Men” was Weiner’s edict that it not be a stylized version of the 1960s, something which has become common in bigscreen period filmmaking. “Having so much detail and sweat stains and ashes and broken furniture and cracked glass and dirt on the walls and all that other stuff that makes it feel more like a real thing than like a movie, so that everyone’s imagination becomes employed,” Weiner said. “And when you work with people that good, you can’t even believe how much story comes up.”

The AMC behind the scenes vignettes went into it. Dunno if its on the blurays.

Heres a link to more interviews: https://www.google.com/amp/s/artdepartmental.com/blog/tv-sets-mad-men-seasons-1-3/amp/

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Blood Nightmaster posted:

I feel like I have to post the scene where Betty walks down the staircase from this episode--it really is one of those times where the music just fits the moment perfectly. It almost feels like an ad itself, kind of selling the idea of their relationship:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orSVWAXC6Nw

The image is real to Don, isn't it. Appearance, and what it says. He has the perfect life precisely BECAUSE it looks perfect. His job is to spin words into fantasies you can buy, his affairs help him deny death, his identity his best creation.

Image made real.

Its such a damning idea of America it boggles.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






I loved loved loved Bobbi and Peggy's interaction, a still rare interaction btw women thats just plain advice on how to survive, in a world of TV writing still awash in dark brooding male anti heroes. Bobbi's change in demeanor around Peggy, and Peggy's too, curious but not too curious, respectful but keeping her boundaries in check. Its the real Peggy peaking thru.

I thought Bobbi was great personally.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Its a Chip AND Dip!

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Gaius Marius posted:

I was surprised by how much more I empathized with Duck on this watch. There's a strong undercurrent in the show about people dealing with the trauma of war, nearly every character we see who has a severe addiction to alcohol is someone self medicating to deal with it. I don't think it's any coincidence they set this episode on memorial day and directly brought up Don's service.

Duck might be a prick but he was trying real hard to salvage his reputation at Sterling Cooper, and to not gently caress up his familial life. And then all this poo poo comes at him at once. Especially when you see how poo poo dealing with clients really is in season three with Connie, I'm surprised he didn't blow up faster.


There's been some good studies and articles on the prevalence of alcoholism in re to WWII vets returning to the work force, its crazy how prevalent it was, and the unprecedented amount od heart attacks and life long illnesses being largely normalized

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Jerusalem posted:

Kind of a tangent to this, but something I find interesting is that Pete pays lipservice to emulating his superiors, but it's always empty talk that is never backed up by anything we actually see him doing. He told Don that he considered Roger a mentor which is just utter bullshit, he tells Don he would "follow him into war" because he thinks a guy with Don's military record would want to hear something like that, but Duck is the only one of the two I recall him ever actively insulting in public in front of others. He comes close when talking poo poo about Don sometimes but always couches it more in regards to himself and others. With Duck, he's always showing his disdain to others, but ironically Duck is one of the few higher-ups in Sterling Cooper that not only treats Pete well, but with a measure of respect/admiration... well at least until Pete made that ridiculous suggestion about getting a dog to just live in the office. :doh:

Pete's really interesting because he obviously came from a family without much paternal attn or love, and you can see how much how he wants to be validated by his older male superiors.

But he also devalues them and seeks to cast them down at every opportunity.

Some real push pull psychology right there.

A lesser show would have made him a brown noser, or machivellian. This show made him both, and strangely adolescent.

The Klowner posted:

Pete is certainly emulating Don in one specific way in this episode.

It's not hard to imagine a younger Don looking into the mirror after his first infidelity and smiling.

For Don affairs are an escape. For Pete, they're an excuse.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Jerusalem posted:

Strangely adolescent is spot on, he's a grown rear end married man but he still looks like a little kid playing dress up in his suits to me.
.

One of the many reasons why Mad Men is my favorite TV show of all time is that Matt Weiner and the rest of the writers really, really, really had their knives out for the idea of concepts of the supposedly meritocratic workplace, these people are all children, and that's fine enough, as long they get along with those in real power

Yoshi Wins posted:

I keep thinking about Jimmy saying about Don "I've been standing behind guys like him my whole life." Don is such a unique jumble of privilege and misfortune. When Jimmy said that, he obviously didn't mean "guys who were absolutely destitute, utterly unloved orphans." He sees the costume Don wears all the time, and the costume is one of absolute privilege. A tall, handsome, rich gentile. It is impossible for Jimmy to sympathize with that man.

Anyone who was dealt the hand Don was dealt would start out deserving a lot of sympathy. But in Don's effort to climb, to make something of himself, and to hide and eliminate his past, he has also eliminated reasons to sympathize with him. His refusal to ever show vulnerability closes avenues for him to receive emotional support. Which he needs, a lot.

Example A right here, for Don to get where he is he needed to be something that wasn't real, something pretty terrible but everyone pretends is great, Don is America

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






The Klowner posted:



This is the bottle it came in

That's a pretty good distillery but yeah starting out drinking bourbon is gonna make anyone take a step back, personally I find good scotch like this boy here [url]https://www.totalwine.com/spirits/scotch/single-malt/auchentoshan-three-wood/p/101387750?glia=true&s=303&&pid=cpc:Core+Catalog+-+Shopping%2BUS%2BCALI%2BENG%2BSPART::google::&gclid=CjwKCAiAxKv_BRBdEiwAyd40N0we0z2A-Ms0fK9t-RjJ2E1oeuZx2tJT_E-v10qsYeOZbnShIgcVPhoC9NcQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds[/url] to be as smooth as juice, but tastes differ ofc e: lol what the gently caress is happening with links

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






sebmojo posted:

ok yeah that was fairly weird but i think this is what you were pointing at?

Yup.

Haunted code.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






I think its clear over the first 2 seasons of Mad Men that Don's most honed pitch is himself. He doesn't have any roots, or any family, or any past, but what he has is the same thing underlying his every client meeting, every interaction at work, even his paternal aloofness at home, he's better than all of this, because Don only looks to the future.

I've said Don is America, and this aspect of himself is especially so, in the space age 60s where Americans can look up to the Moon and not at the bloodied earth under their feet.

This is a recipe for psychological disaster. For a sociopathic psychosis that tears away at cohesion and relationships. Eternal optimism cut off from reality leads to an eternal hunger for more and just out of reach happiness. Don is never happy (or only for brief, brief moments, mostly when he engages with his children, or engages with his coworkers in the pure art of craft and ideas).

Most of the time Don is so devoted to the idea of looking like a great person, better than everything around him, the things that actually make him act are always a mystery to himself. He doesn't engage with his shadow self, or his unconscious desires that make him clutch at anything that pushes away the idea of death or decline for himself (America), he's separated himself from the hard work of growing and appreciating the things that give him comfort, the mundane realities of family, of socializing with peers on equal terms, of putting in stakes and attempting to be content.

Don would so benefit from good psychological advice, from a specialist. But he's inured, so powerful, so rich, and so lauded, he wouldn't even deign to do anything of the sort. Its a shame, kinda.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Yeah Don's an emotional guy, even a sentimental one, but its really only honed to make himself more money. Like Pete's ability to read tea leaves. These people's gifts or what have you are honed to their business.

It reminds me of ppl I met in grad school. If you're gonna make money, parts of your personality wither away based on your focus on your ambition.

Then cue 20 years later and everyone is having divorces and just embarrasing themselves tryi g to turn into a DJ or something

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






The similarities between Marilyn Monroe and Don are obvious, but for anyone who doesn’t know, iirc Marilyn aka Norma Jean Mortenson had an abusive childhood, escaped her old family and name by going to Holllywood, and completely changing herself. Well, tried to anyway.

The other thing I’d note about the ep is that Mad Men is the only show where Checkov’s Gun is a verbose, life loving millionaire boss, and the gun shooting off is him running away with a secretary. Perfectly makes sense in hindsight, an inevitability.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Yoshi Wins posted:

.


Don's reaction to Roger bringing up that BBDO hired a Black employee is interesting. Don says, “I'm glad I'm not that kid.” We haven't gotten a lot of information about his stance on the civil rights movement, but I think this statement is illuminating. He acknowledges that Black people have it tough, but he also doesn't sound all that sympathetic in my opinion. I think that Don thinks, “Well, I had it tough and I pulled myself out, so they can too.” It seems to me that he doesn't want to “waste” his time or energy on sympathy for others, even in the case of major systemic injustice.

Don trying to pass as a wealthy white man born to privilege takes up all his mental space, well his conscious mental space. He doesn’t have the energy to spare for sympathizing with other people on the margins, tho he doesn’t have any spite for them either. There have been occasions, like with Peggy, where he exhibits something like sympathy, but I see it more as spotting an uncut gem, something precious that he can see and other dumber people can’t


quote:

Yeah, “those people” definitely belongs in quotes here. Who are we talking about Pete? The conversation is about Freddy Rumsen, who never, ever blamed anyone else for what happened. Freddy just asked for clemency. Pete's justification is completely inapplicable here. To me, it suggests that he holds other people in contempt by default. So my hard-hitting analysis is: Pete's a jerk.


RIP to a real one

Feels like Pete is is projecting stuff about his dad, who apparently was just a fortune wasting playboy. Maybe he was a drunk as well?

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Man I need to rewatch the stretch of episodes between Don finding out about Sal in the hotel and Sal turning down Lee Jr. I feel like Don tolerated Sal when he found out, then kicked him out without hesitation when he thought it might impact the business. I think Don is DEFINITELY homophobic, but is not a virulent homophobe. Don takes pride in being dispassionate (in the car with Bobbie saying “I don’t feel anything”) and being passionately anything would remove an essential layer of the shell he’d created around himself. He reminds me of a lot of people of privilege and supposed education, their bigotry comes at you in surprising times, when you are vulnerable and no one else is watching.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Xealot posted:

(Don and Sal stuff)

Don is absolutely homophobic on a personal level, but I think his attitude about Sal is...weirdly complicated. I might even call it 'progressive,' at least relative to the context, because it's almost tolerant: Don is no stranger to living a secret double-life that society would malign, and perhaps he sees and understands this tension in Sal. Hence why his complaint on the plane isn't actually that Sal is gay, it's that he seems indiscreet about it. "Limit your exposure. Be better about hiding it." Contrast with someone like Pete or Harry, who have no qualms with openly calling gay people degenerates or perverts, and who seem perfectly happy to discard them the second they're outed.

The fallout with Lee Garner, Jr. speaks to what I mean, I think. "You people" is Don being a homophobe, but the core of it is, "did you really have to poo poo where you eat?!" The idea that Sal didn't initiate it, that Lee Garner is a predator with men, too, is unfathomable to Don's biases regarding gay men. But his complaint is still that Sal was so incautious...he'd have been perfectly happy working with a gay man as long as he kept that poo poo under wraps, essentially a DADT policy a good 30 years before the 90's.


That's real interesting. I hadn't thought of Don's secret life creating, well not sympathy, but understanding for what Sal is going through.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






GoutPatrol posted:

I think its not intentionally trying to make a connection, but I'm guessing when writing The Suitcase they went back to some familiar ideas to expand upon the ideas here.

I would also say it is always nice when Freddie comes back for episodes. Mad Men was always good at keeping side characters moving in and out, or making references to them. The only big character who I think leaves one day and never comes back is Sal, and that always led to rumors about disagreements between Bryan Batt and Matt Weiner, which don't appear to be true.

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a34980/mad-men-salvatore-romano-bryan-batt/


wow, this bit in the article:

Luckily, Matt knew what he wanted. At my makeup and wardrobe test, he came over and said, "You know what's going to happen to Sal?" I said, "What?" Keep in mind, this was before we filmed the pilot. "Later on, I don't know when, but he's going to go on a business trip with Don and Don's going to bag a stewardess. And Sal's going to go on the trip too. He's going to have sex with some guy and Don's going to find out—but it's not going to matter." I said, "That's cool." I hadn't even read the whole script yet. I had just been cast. All I knew was: This was television! I was going to bring Matt's image of Sal to life.

It really adds to the convo we were having earlier.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Yoshi Wins posted:

Yeah, the end of this season is super strong. This is a very good episode, although I think the Glen part drags a bit. But that conversation with Helen Bishop is so powerful. Betty was trained to be a housewife and mother. She was never shown how to be nor expected to be an independent adult. It's a daunting prospect. And truth be told, she does have some childish tendencies, which is part of why she inappropriately takes comfort in Glen's affection.

I watched this episode with my mom and asked her if people were really that weird about dementia, just pretending it wasn't happening. She told me the first time she heard the word "dementia" was around 1980! People only started consistently getting old enough to develop dementia around the 1960s, and it took some time for people to know what to expect.

I honestly don't think William is smart enough to bring back the jardiniere as a power play. I think he just thought, "Sheesh! If she's gonna whine about it, I'll just bring it back!" William simply doesn't want to deal with this poo poo. And of course, he's childish himself, hiding out in the treehouse until supper time.

This episode helps establish that the Hofstadts had some money. The house is huge and beautiful, and there's a PORTRAIT of her mother in the study, like she was royalty, and the house even has a room that seems like a study. Gene surely never felt that Don was worthy of his daughter.

Paul name dropping Marx to try to impress the people on the bus is incredibly cringe inducing. Paul, stop talking.

And yes, Gloria is his wife now. I don't know why they didn't make it clearer. I think it was a mistake, as the ambiguity adds nothing.

This episode was a purposeful contrast in studying various ways your childhood and parents can gently caress you up. Pete's family situation and Betty's, its a pretty obvious compare and contrast thing...with Pete coming off as more...healthy? Like the Betty household seems to have reared their children in illusions, lies, and infantilizing their children way past adulthood. William literally hid in a treefort. Gene, well we don't know how Gene is normally, but he seemed to have his way around the house, and his needs catered for. Betty from the start of the show has been a sheltered, naive, well, "princess", just like Gene said and went out of his way to foster.

Pete is completely hosed up. he thinks getting close to someone is being able to have the means to hurt them, from Don, to his mother. Abuse and manipulation is his expressions of love. But at least he seems cognizant of how hosed up his childhood was, and seems to be trying to make a break from it, in one way or the other. Maybe not having an inheritance freed him in some way.

Betty seems to still be trapped in the circle of her upbringing. The show seems to be saying that its better to be shown the truth, in all its nasty permutations, than be coddled. At least thats what I'm getting.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Thanks! I'm a big fan of the show so have plenty of time to have thought about the character dynamics.

One thing I forgot to mention is how healthy, comparatively, Pete and his brother (an excellent actor, and great everytime he shows up) are with each other. They know their parents are poo poo, but at least they've gone through it together, even tho his brother told on him. Betty and William honestly feel more dysfunctional to me.

As a brother with four other brothers, I'm very away of the dynamic that happens when you grow up. You either drop the dynamics you had as children (for the most part) and become friends who have a LOT in common, or you hold onto it and gradually drift away. Pete and his brother seemed to have gone for the first option. Betty and William for the latter (with Betty still bossing him around like the elder sister).

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Sash! posted:

I'm not sure what just triggered the thought, but aviation comes up so much in the show and in so many different ways. Not just "they fly around, because they are fancy Jet Age business men," but in every aspect it can. Mohawk, American, the Flight 1 crash, the Jet Set California people, General Dynamics, North American Aviation, Ted and Jim are/were pilots, Ted's Cessna and his various adventures, Don's wistful contrail watching at McCann, Pete ending up at Learjet. Almost like it is supposed to be a theme that I'm too dense to figure out.

Aviation and the its mystique was huge in the 60s. New technological future, an optimistic vision of America and all that.

Also you can literally run away on a plane

E: Wasn't Ted miserable flyong on his plane by the end of the show

E2: What Yoshi said

Shageletic fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Jan 23, 2021

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






alotta thoughts on the latest write-up (Don/Anna's relationship could take up a book) but just quickly wanted to point how loving excellent the acting was this ep. John Hamm, obviously, shifting like a chameleon between the facade of Donnie Drapes, to the man bitterly holding the remnants of it, to the eager huckster looking for love willing to create it. His face loving CHANGES. Its unearthly.

You know who else did a little acting showcase? Keirnan Shipka. Don't know where they plucked the girl actress, but I've never seen a show before and since that had a child barely out of toddler age act so convincingly, and so...full of heart-rendingly sympathetic? Her being locked in the closet and crying out for her dad, playing a victim and honestly hurt. Its so weirdly well-acted, but not robotically like many a child actor. It just rings true, and ably elides the complex emotional landscape you have as a child and no parent is willing to acknowledge.

Also real neat to see the further cementing of Peggy, Pitch Master. You can see her more easily falling into her pitching persona, not as aggressive or in control as Don's, by necessity, but a warm yet complete certainty in what she is saying. Real fun.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Yoshi Wins posted:

What does everyone think of how firmly Pete rejects adoption in this episode when in The Inheritance he appeared to be softening on the idea a bit? He drunkenly rambles to Peggy in The Inheritance that the fact that "it's not yours" could be a good thing. He never seems keen on it, but it seems like he's starting to at least consider it a bit. But then in this episode he's so violently opposed to Trudy making them an appointment that he maybe possibly killed a Manhattan pedestrian.

Was it all to do with resenting Trudy for trying to force the issue? Did his mother's rhetoric about "pulling from the discards" hit him? Or maybe he finally realized how deeply he was opposed to it when it started to look like it might become a reality?

Because Trudy made the decision. Rationally, and Pete's a pretty smart guy, its not a bad idea.

But his future being decided without his supposed say so got him freaking out emotionally tp regain control.

Probavly because he subconsciously feels like he doesnt control his life.

Don's in the wind, and Pete's stuck in the nest.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






VinylonUnderground posted:

Pete is a complex character. He's the best character on the show.

If children are a burdensome obligation (something he was undoubtedly told many times) why would you go out of your way to adopt? If having children will make your spouse (the only person who loves you in an unqualified manner), why wouldn't you give them what they want? Why does your spouse love you, when you are a grimy unlovable person (something you undoubtedly know to be true)? What is wrong with them? Why can't you provide your spouse what they need? Why can't you succeed? When you look in the mirror, you don't see what is wrong with you. You aren't the most handsome man but you basically look fine. So why does everyone treat you like some hideous goblin? And what the gently caress is wrong with the one person who doesn't? Why do they accept you? Are they having their father give you money to mock you? Is that what it is? Are you some kind of a joke, a doormat to them? gently caress them! You just want to be loved but you are clearly unlovable so why does this seemingly normal person love you? Are you just some loving clown? You are creative, your ideas are just as good as Don or Paul. OK, maybe not as good but they are still pretty solid ideas and at least worth considering. Why do people see greatness in them and just treat you like a joke? And then there is Rodger. He's got a lineage. But you've got a better lineage. Why do people respect him when he's at least as much of a fuckup as you are. Why doesn't anybody love me and what is wrong with the people who do love me?

Set a timer and say that to yourself everyday at the top of the hour every hour. And a few times in between. Maybe ever 15 minutes or so when you are stressed or just are alone like when you take a poop or just close your eyes for a moment. Live in that skin for a while.

Then Pete makes total and complete sense.

Primo pete post

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






pentyne posted:

show us on the doll where Matthew Weiner touched you

Vinylon has a point. Weiner's love of privilege is something that jars with his depiction of its infantilizing and negative effects. I think its interesting, but it can also lead to tepid valorizing if it isnt carefully calibrated.

CoughTheRomanovscough

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






GoutPatrol posted:

I would disagree on this. I feel like the entire point of the final conversation is Mathis saying anything Don would have done to fix it would work, while anything Mathis does wouldn't (you may disagree on this, but I think that's true. Nothing Mathis did probably would of made the client happy). He could get away with so many things because of his looks, and I think Mad Men does a great job explaining that - like when Pete and Don go golfing and Don forgets his golf clothes, and just goes "I'll throw my tie back and roll up my sleeves, they'll love it." Pete replies "...they probably will." and they go. Only a Don could get away with this. Even Don does subconsciously know this, when they all go on speed and Don is explaining to tap dancing Ken that "he must be there in the flesh" on his pitches, because in the end, a big part of his sales pitch is himself.

I keep on thinking about the line in S7 where Sally says Don and Betty ooze when ppl look at them.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






"If," warns Ken, but once he's gone Lois' face breaks out in a huge smile, this merger is going to be great for her!


Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Xealot posted:

I was so psyched for The Romanoffs and goddamn what a let-down that was. Though I think the Russian orphanage episode is legit great; it has a lot of things to say about privilege, and valorizing it isn't one of them.

I kinda lost interest from what I saw of the first episode, the reviews, and no one talking about it so I might just be talking out of my rear end.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Catching up with the thread and read your S3E1 recap Jerusalem, so going off that, felt like making a post...about management

I've only a glancing first person experience with it, but I love this show and there's a lot of good stuff about it relating to Mad Men. A lot of takes from people that do it professional approving of the show's take on it. In fact, its kinda surprising how much they think Mad Men gets it right regarding visimillitude, until I realized how each one used it as a jumping off point for their ultimate vision of proper management techniques.

Reaching into the 20th Century, there had been a long tradition of popular management techniques using the language of science and progress to help businesses earn more money. Here's a little information it, and how it changes roughly when the show's timeline begins: http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/history_management/management.html

More human factors are emphasized, a turn towards the power of individuals to effect changes, mirroring sociology and other developments present at the time. Like we'll see later, capitalism has a habit of taking new cultural changes, and using it to change itself for its own benefit. A slight change in its DNA so that it could itself viable and keep itself expressing.

So a renewed emphasis on the individual, and their ability to effect change. Smack dab when Don Draper is really making his mark.

Don is a man built for sales. Handsome, in a carefully constructed way (I keep on thinking about this thing I heard Sarah Silverman say, that she had met John Hamm before he got the show, and didn't even think he was really good looking, he just seemed like a regular dude), based on the way he carries himself, his supreme confidence, his intelligence, and his general reticience. Don's a cypher, due to a combination of ambition, fear, and unrealized self actualization, and that makes him supremely good at business. There's a frankly amazing series of essays on the Office that views it thru the lens of management that I have to cite here (and its worth reading the whole series by the way), because I think its pretty illuminating regarding Don:

"Of all organization men, the true executive is the one who remains most suspicious of The Organization. If there is one thing that characterizes him, it is a fierce desire to control his own destiny and, deep down, he resents yielding that control to The Organization, no matter how velvety its grip… he wants to dominate, not be dominated…Many people from the great reaches of middle management can become true believers in The Organization…But the most able are not vouchsafed this solace."

https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/

That is from a book written in the 1950s, that the author says perfectly describes how corporations work to the present day, and I am inclined to agree with. Taking the pretty well known Peter Principle, that people rise up in a business to their level of incompetence, the author, Whyte, adds another layer, saying that occurring is purposeful, and it is used to create a middle layer of "Organization Men" that can be jettisoned or manipulated according to the real masters, the executives actually running the companies.

That's what's happening with Pete and Ken. Organization Men (the author of the article uses "Clueless" for them, lol, as more biting takes on management techniques occur past the 1960s) who might buy into idea of their business and working for its benefit, while all the real benefits accrue upwards. There is a way out for these types, become a necessarily exploitative executive. Or as Hugh Macleod later writes, a "Sociopath". Putting aside most of the other things that word suggests, its a handy way to focus on the utter dedication to one's own benefit that we tend to see in business organization in its most upper levels. As executives then exploit these clueless as much as they can, they then can decide to fire them, or even sell their company to make as much as money as possible, which inevitably tends to happen. Also its a funnier way to put it.

Ken seems to not be clueless, but almost reach Don's level of awareness regarding his role (Don's suspicion and inabilty to buy into the illusion of corporate communality is ironically why he's so sought after by real sociopaths). Pete...not so much. Because of his easily visible gaping psychological needs, he is easily exploited to generate more revenues from sociopaths, and be happy to do so as long as he views the company as a paternal figure, instead of an exploitative one. The people most likely to be hosed by an organization are the ones that place the most trust and loyalty in it, instead of seeing it as a stepping stone, or something to be exploited in turn.

Which is a pretty Marxist take as Karl was taking about workers only being able to offer their bodies were doomed to have those bodies broken in turn (I'm still reading Kapital, so you can definitely correct me there).

In fact all of the above is just from reading random poo poo, its just some thoughts I had. Last thing, because I've written enough (tho I might return to this later), there is another layer below Sociopaths and Clueless. That's Losers. People who have no buy in to the idea of an organization, but are just there to get paid and leave. They know its bullshit, but also know their work is replaceable and their worth is diminutive. Their live is outside the office, and perhaps because of this, Hugh Macleod wrote, they are much more likely to be promoted to the sociopath level than the clueless, due their cynical view of the whole thing, instead of one more delusional.

Maybe Ken's that. Dunno.

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Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007






Torquemada posted:

Breaking Bad is to Mad Men as The Shield is to The Wire.

Yeah? I agree with this?

I sure as hell am more likely to watch Mad Men/The Wire anyway

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