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pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Ainsley McTree posted:

It's been a while since I watched this show, and man, I forgot what a scumbag Ken could be. For some reason I remembered him as the decent one.

S1 Ken is like the frattiest of frat boys of privilege. Even Pete seems tame compared to the stuff he gets up to. Ken is like the jock and Pete is the legacy who no one really likes but everyone is nice to.

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pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


The Klowner posted:

I feel like "the guys" have thus far too readily accepted Peggy. Like you would expect a bunch of 60s business men to feel a little more threatened by the trajectory of a young woman who's able to write and pitch copy as well as she has. It's like an idiot plot but for sexism instead of intelligence.

Also they ought to make a rejuvenator for men. I want some electric underwear elon musk, make it happen

It's less acceptance then "well, this works and the client liked it" for the account men. It's also coming from 95% Freddy who's got insane seniority on everyone else there seeing something in her and making it happen. The only other creative in the show who could shut it down is Don and he sees the same thing Freddy does.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


The Klowner posted:

Maybe it was more of an anticlimax in 2005 when american audiences might have assumed businessmen in the good old days had principles besides "make money"

The way Bert presented it he made it pretty clear all powerful people have blood on their hands, who's going to care about a little thing like a name "assuming it were true" ?

It was more a lesson to Pete about learning how fast your privilege will run out the moment you're trying to go up against peers and the people who are highly valued. Pete's only option was...report Don to the police, the FBI? Anything he did would make him persona non grata in the industry unless a small firm was looking for some blue blood legacy to dust off and present to their clients as their token "elite" and even then he'll just be forever denied the higher rungs on the ladder of prestige because no one wants him for his talent.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Gaius Marius posted:

Yeah I didn't wanna start dropping black bars to make jerusalem think something was up. but it comes up when pete has to kill the north american air contract, but more interesting it comes up when they agree to suspend don as partner.

he's looks like he's spoiling for a fight and cooper comes up and says "don don't you think there's a lot of thinks I know about you" or something like that. absolutely chilling he's been keeping that in lock for half a decade. bert copper is nothing if not a savvy business man


That's completely wrong.

Don refuses to sign the 3 year employee commitment contract that Hilton wants in S3. Cooper approaches Don in his office alone after one of Don's disappearing binges with the contract and basically tells him he has to sign saying "Would you say I know something about you Don?" and then saying "After all, who's really signing this contract anyways" with a smile on his face.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


I'm cool with a moratorium on spoilers. They did that in the Babylon 5 blind watch thread and had to regularly probate people trying to be cute by dropping hints though.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Jerusalem posted:

January Jones is great, and it still blows my mind how she goes from a single appearance at the very tail end of the pilot to such a large role in the second episode and just immediately comes across as a fully realized person whose story is immediately compelling.

She's an actress who's extremely talented but has gotten an absolute river of poo poo for being a "bitch" because of that role same as Anna Gunn.

Here's the greatest pairing of Don and Betty with the actors just having fun being themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-IbKB5dlo#t=73s

When you see Jon Hamm in that video it's almost like he was born to be a comedic actor and being a serious drama actor is just his side gig.

pentyne fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Nov 5, 2020

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


GoutPatrol posted:

When I rewatch I never enjoy going back to the earlier seasons. It sometimes feels like you're watching two different shows.

That's weird because S2/3 feel like the most solid storytelling they did. I prefer it over S5 at least if I had to rank favorite seasons to watch again.

It'd go in list of preference

Season 3
Season 2
Season 4
Season 6
Season 1
Season 5
Season 7

I vastly prefer S6 over S5, just personal preference. All the seasons are basically 10x better then anything comparable in the category but something about S6 in general I really like.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


JethroMcB posted:

See, I think the show could only work when it did, because in 2020 the Mission Hills of American cities have largely been gentrified to hell and back. The creators have said that, had the show continued, the long-term plot was for Andy to achieve Matt Groening-level success as a cartoonist, becoming absolutely miserable and jaded in the process. With that kind of cynicism so entrenched in the show's DNA, I suspect a running background plot about the gradual death of the neighborhood would've been in there as well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNVWqdxNWpU

Here's the Playboy Club pilot if anybody's interested in seeing a few minutes of that. It definitely feels like network execs said "We get why people watch Mad Men: Costuming. Women wear colorful dresses, and all the stoic guys wear suits and Brylcreem the crap outta their hair. Just slap any ol' primetime soap plot on it, if attractive people look good in period outfits, people will tune in."

(That Youtube account is a pro follow, by the way. Guy has been uploading pilots for fairly short-lived series on there for a while, some going back as far as the mid-90's. Quality's not the best, but where else are you going to see the first episode of The Brotherhood of Poland, New Hampshire or Wednesday 9:30 (8:30 Central)?)

The Playboy show was some terrible writing because the studio execs may have wanted Mad Men but from the pilot or early episodes a major plot point was the bouncers/male employees of the club killed one of the "key" members, his key was found by 2 random guys who then tried to get into the club, and so a recurring plot was established where it seemed like someone was going to get caught.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Fighting Trousers posted:

Or if you don't have long, there's this Vanity Fair article.

The book is tremendous and it's a pretty quick read as it doesn't stop topping itself with the insanity.

Once of the biggest things about the scandal is how quickly something went from almost insignificant to impossibly massive because of some very dumb decisions made by very powerful people.

Safeway got stuck into it hard in a "you won't believe this" way. It was originally supposed to be a small scale thing, no major attention or push, and when he was on an investor call and eating poo poo for the latest quarter, the Safeway CEO randomly threw it out there "we're making a major push into healthcare" and suddenly the small scale trial became a nationwide planned rollout before any results came back. That entire part of the Theranos story was from a panicked CEO trying to deflect away from a decent/not great fiscal year.

It's basically the same at every step, some of the earliest investors included a mega-high profile lawyer who could bully the gently caress out of anyone and was happy being paid in company stock almost all the way up to the end.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!



Patrick S. Fischler is a mostly one off character actor but absolutely one of the best actors in the world to switch from jokester to "you do not gently caress with me" with a single look. He played a recurring role on Suits where he did a similar thing and it was almost uncomfortable to watch him go from grinning jackass to gonna ruin your life now angry.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Jerusalem posted:

It is kinda cool how even with such limited screentime so far, Smitty REALLY comes across as a huge rear end in a top hat. I love Don's baffled,"Why do you get paid more than him?" question re: Kurt in their job interview, and how Smitty has zero compunctions about openly proclaiming that he deserves more.

He's a citizen, duh.

I never really understood the whole "duo" thing for the interview. Duck brought it up like it was some industry thing at the time but even in the context of the show it seems weird as gently caress and Don even treats it like some circus sideshow he's forced to accept.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


GoutPatrol posted:

IIRC The Heineken spot was the first big company that showed up in the show and then had their real commercial showing up right after.

Did the show have any sponsored placements? I remember later in the show the brands would make jokes on twitter whenever they'd get featured in an unflattering light.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Fucking nauseating!


Yoshi Wins posted:

Yes, I love that about them too. One of my favorite laughs of the whole series is when Bud says he visited their mother and Pete was all she talked about, and Pete says "Really?" and Bud says, "No." Pete thinks it's hilarious, and Bud's wife is disturbed. She doesn't get that they coped by making each other laugh with grim jokes about their parents being unloving or them wishing their parents were dead.

Even for Bud being the golden child he's shockingly chill about it and doesn't rub it in Pete's face. Like they both just accepted they had weird hosed up parents and all they could do was what society expected of them as the monied class. Pete's casual dismissal of expecting anything to inherit which Bud readily acknowledges would've gone solely to him was brutal to watch in how blaise they both were about the whole thing.

Their small interactions during the show, the back and forth between two people who barely act like work colleagues much less brothers always makes for extremely interesting insights into Pete's own brand of self loathing narcissism.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Capntastic posted:

Re: Pete and Adoption

Everything Pete has is inherited but he despises (or begrudgingly tolerates) his biological family. He has no insight into this, of course, as he places huge prominence on demanding a biological heir.

...does he?

It almost seemed like he didn't actually want kids aside from having to do what was expected of him.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Escobarbarian posted:

To me, Mad Men is about a group of men and women who work in advertising in the 1960s and run into various problems.

Hey now.

Some of them work in research.

Regarding Pete, he's kind of the most important character in the show along with Peggy as their saga is one of change and growth. It's a story of two people who start at complete opposites in terms of family, wealth, and social privilege and learning to grow beyond that as they progress in their fields. In 2 seasons Pete has gone from the scummiest boy in the room to somewhat capable of understanding he isn't going to have success dropped in his life by virtue of birth. Peggy has lucked into a serious career beyond typical "women's work" by being great at it but also because Don wanted to shove it in Pete's face.

Peggy taking the office was a huge deal for her both professionally and socially, enough to put Kinsey on edge, and Roger pretty much called it out saying she was confidant enough to ask while tons of her "peers" i.e men with several years experience and ivy league pedigrees were too afraid to even ask.

It's a small sign that the metrics of success are changing and things aren't always going to be automatically given to the privileged as a matter of course. It started with Pete being denied the head of accounts job by Don in what was a power play and is slowly extending to other areas (really starting to see a pattern here).

pentyne fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Jan 29, 2021

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


VinylonUnderground posted:

Like Science Fiction, period pieces reflect the time they are made in more than the time they represent. The self-made wealthy Conservative Everyman owning snobbish liberal elitists absolutely speaks to popular conscious of 2007 and 2008. Talking about Don's emptiness as a counter to that is absolutely what they wanted to convey if you listen to their interviews but given how the character of Don Draper was and is received, uhhh, they didn't do a great job communicating that.

yeah because 2007 was the only time in history there was a culture perception of self made men owning a bunch of ivory tower intellectuals.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Fucking nauseating!


VinylonUnderground posted:

But having a conservative (anti)hero in 2007 is absolutely making a statement.

you're like the equivalent of the Harry Potter fan who says every bad guy is just like Voldemort

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Fucking nauseating!


McSpanky posted:



If being bad didn't didn't work and get people glamor, fame, wealth, and power, it wouldn't be so tempting to be bad. Showing the fruits of ill-gotten gains as luxurious, tantalizing and superficially empowering is a feature, not a bug; the fact that some people never get past that and miss the critical forest for the cosmetic trees is their fool's loss and literally happens alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the time. This whole line of criticism is desperately uninteresting.

In the 60s the idea of a wealthy, successful provider who cheats on his spouse isn't seen as automatically being "the bad guy". This isn't some new or radical concept there are still large pockets of people in tyool 2021 who think "stand by your man" is the only answer to a married man doing anything wrong.

Same with (not that it actually happens like people love to talk about) self made men dunking ivory tower liberals being a thing for quite a long time. Conservative establishment have championed the "anyone can be great/self made man" while simultaneously eroding any advantages in society that would allow that, and condemning/mocking liberals who would try and stop them using the same arguments.

Showing this on a tv show, written in the late 2000s and set in the 60s isn't some hidden message to the audience any more then Lucky cigarettes seeing a 30% boost in sales during the first few seasons.

Criticizing the show in this way is like attacking it for promoting smoking. It's so clearly not the point to the show that making the argument calls into question that person's actual understanding of it.

pentyne fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Jan 31, 2021

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Fucking nauseating!


VinylonUnderground posted:

While I think the criticisms I'm presenting do apply to the series as a whole, I'm not spoilering things because I'm keeping my commentary contemporary with the thread itself. For example the jetsetters are a good foreshadowing of the doldrums of some of the later seasons and those do a fair job deglamorizing Don's lifestyle. Being a pathetic loser who pays women to slap him and then having the one friend he has left top himself is very much not glamorous.

We know Weiner likes being a grimy little pimp and his love of all the "bad" things about Don shines through in the product. I don't think the show is effective (and certainly not up to the point in the narrative where this thread is) at actually condemning these things. Instead it revels in them and then does a quick sad trombone scene to clumsily communicate that these things it presents as good are, in fact, bad.

show us on the doll where Matthew Weiner touched you

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Fucking nauseating!


Beamed posted:

Unspoilering just to write my agreement here: Mad Men is always way more nuanced than you'd think, and there's never just one reason for anything. That said, it is definitely NOT a subtle show :v:

Season 3 is set in 1963.

A certain world event that occurs during that year is foreshadowed in what would only be described as subtle if you had gone your entire life unaware of one of the most famous few seconds of film in history.

It's a show that delights in not being afraid to stick a landing hard when it needs to. Bert Cooper is the undisputed king of the mic drop in the show and he when comes at someone he doesn't ever miss.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Fucking nauseating!


quote:

Was Pete being genuine when he told Don he just thought he should know, or is he playing a game? Did he look at Harry and Paul's pathetic responses to the merger (one keen to keep his head down, the other uselessly moaning about not wanting change) and decide to be more proactive? Did Don's earlier "attaboy" touch him in a way that Duck's compliment about American Airlines did not? Is it down to Pete respecting Don in spite of everything, and his still clear disrespect for Duck in spite of his support? And what about that departing line about the Russian ship? Is it simply a matter of Pete genuinely thinking there is a future after all and looking to secure his position regardless of who wins the Duck/Don battle? Or just an analogy that like the Soviets Duck thinks he can do what he want, and Don taking a stand might be enough to back him down?

I almost spoiled that Pete thing in ep13 before checking myself to see what episode it was on.

It's so prescient that Pete ended up telling Don about Duck's plan after all that went on between them and with Duck giving him the Head of Accounts position. Pete, a high born silver spoon kid who could've made Don eat poo poo for all the times he passed Pete over or humiliated him, went for mercy. Even with everything he wanted in his grasp, knowing what he knows about Don, he still went out of his way to tell Don for whatever reason, even as a favor owed for not getting fired in S1. Bert called it in back then with the "who cares" scene. You never know how loyalty is born.

I wasn't exaggerating about Bert Cooper. Almost every single line written for him or scene with him is pure gold. He's one of the founders, he made his bones during the depression, and he's mastered the art of the ad business in a way none of the others understand or appreciate. He is the real "wise man on the mountain" and just enjoys pretending to be a doddering old guy. Whenever he's in the room during a scene, he's the one to watch.

During the Lane-Pete debacle in S5 everyone in the room its all smiles and humor and Cooper is only one seeing the reality of the situation. The difference between his face and the other partners is a masterclass in directing

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Fucking nauseating!


Torquemada posted:

I pretty much only know Robert Morse from “How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying” (1967) which is the tale of a window cleaner becoming a CEO without doing basically any work. I choose to believe this is some meta thing on Weiner’s part.

Uh, kind of? Morse has Broadway training and it kind of comes out in some of his line deliveries which I assume was deliberate. He's always a little "more" like exaggerating his body language or speaking with a theater voice.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Jerusalem posted:

Duck is absolutely the kind of "team player" that he demands Don has to be from now on (by which he means,"You don't get to be special anymore"), but it is quite telling just how quickly and with how much relish he throws his weight around the moment he DOES have power. When he comes on board to Sterling Cooper, he's a man who has burned his life down and desperately needs a fresh start, and he's deeply grateful for the opportunity he is given. He never quite feels like he belongs though, Don - who hired him! - seems indifferent to his presence and their vision of how an advertising agency is run completely conflict. But he plays his part, he does his job, and he even at one point warns the other execs to forgive Don's eccentricities because "our job is to bend the branch so he can pick the fruit."

I think someone once described it as Duck Phillips is the main character of a different show, and that's what leads to his conflict in Mad Men.

He comes into the show as a "master of the universe" in his third act, during the first part of his downfall. He's a struggling alcoholic to the point it clearly impacts his work, his family situation is poo poo, his brilliant work reputation is just a distant memory, and when he finally does try to argue he deserves his slice of the pie (remember Don never chased partnership, probably because he wasn't going to ever sign a multi-year contract) he's told to eat poo poo directly by Sterling and basically blamed for a bad fiscal year.

It's pretty interesting to see that those same flaws he's struggling with are clearly shown to be serious & significant issues for multiple other execs. Don has his family troubles that are quickly getting worse. Pete the same in a smaller way with butting heads with the in-laws. Freddy was the one who's level of drinking reached a point of potential embarrassment and was cut adrift despite whatever nice things they said.

Duck is just the end stage for most of those in a different way and expecting that life will throw him another chance for his hard work. One of my favorite parts of that episode is the moment Duck leaves the room Saint John turns on him immediately, "He never could hold his liquor".

Literally the driving force behind making a ton of money for everyone in the room and Duck is cut loose at a moments notice. I'd say its a cruel world but the show is corporate 1960s capitalistic nepotism at its finest. Everyone is best friends until its costing them money.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Fucking nauseating!


Jerusalem posted:

Also I absolutely adore January Jones' acting in this bit:

https://i.imgur.com/2p5uLRD.mp4

Just that brief little moment where the mask slips and you can see how uncertain and scared she is, and how she is trying to build herself up to do something she would never normally consider in a million years. All done without a word. Just lovely stuff.

Little things like Betty doing that after a lifetime of being the good domestic housewife, giving up all semblance of a life beyond rearing and childcare, and showing not telling in acting terms takes some serious level of talent.

Betty Draper and Skylar White were easily some of the best characters on their respective shows, arguably better then the male leads at times.

I don't know good Jones or Gunn are as actresses but they both absolutely nailed the roles they were given for some of the best written/most critically regarded shows on at the time and faced an endless torrent of poo poo online for being "bitches".

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Fucking nauseating!


BrotherJayne posted:

Betty's on the spectrum, yoooooo

No she's just one of those quirky girls with their head in the clouds.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Fucking nauseating!


sure okay posted:

Two things I think about a lot from this season are

1. The scene where Paul is told Don's going to California in his stead and he reacts, "He can't do that!" The group's reaction is merely to laugh and no one even bothers to correct him. Of course he can. Like, these abstract qualities of "clout" and "authority" made manifest so swiftly and so sharply they humiliate a man to his core. Don obviously never meant that, but that didn't matter at all. I couldn't imagine getting so thoroughly owned by my boss in front of my peers, and to know (or even suspect) that it wasn't personal. At the very least I'd want such a slight to be personal.

2. Roger is so casual about Don's impromptu vacation that I honestly thought I had skipped an episode. I knew going in that this was a show that was, in part, about a guy who gets away with goddamn near everything primarily because of how he carries himself but wow. I think about how if he showed the slightest hint of guilt, or gave any sort of verbal mea culpa to Roger that whole outcome would've gone very differently. But his inscrutable, unapologetic poker face takes him so freaking far in life it is breathtaking.

Kinsey was such a great foil to all the other creatives/execs who are essentially his age/peers. He's pretends he's like a less monied version of Pete but with literally 0 self awareness and rides that dumb pipe and castro beard as literally his only personality trait. He always thinks of himself as this smug intellectual but every attempt he makes to act like it fall pretty flat. The black girlfriend thing was pretty eye opening too, aside from the weird racism it really did give the vibe that he felt like he was 'woke' for deigning to be with her.

also love when his old roommate shows up and brings up his old Jersey accent

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Even better was the look from the others when Paul is almost breathless as he recounts his "negros and I got along" story.

They were extremely privileged white men in 1960 and even they could see how full of poo poo he was talking about black people like some mysterious discovery of his.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Jerusalem posted:

When Don says "limit your exposure" it isn't just a quiet show of support for his gay colleague, it's the identification of the only lesson he learned from season 2. Not to be faithful to his wife, not to stop lying and devote himself fully to being a good husband and father. The lesson he learned was,"Just do it out of town with people who can't eventually tie back to Betty." Anna told him he can change, and he has... but not for the better. He's just been smarter about covering up what he does, because why would he stop when he can get what he wants otherwise.

In the past he had affairs with women who fascinated or challenged him in some ways, and ignored or dismissed come-ons from the likes of Shelley. Now, his "change" is that he'll just indulge in one-night-stands out of town while his pregnant wife who took him back against her better judgement waits at home to greet him with a love he really doesn't deserve. And how is his message of his "change" delivered, through a line to a friend that of course makes Don look like the best person in the world, all while he continues to be a piece of poo poo.



Don Draper, a man famous for learning lessons.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Jerusalem posted:

Oh man that's great, Pete taking Hildy's jacket was wonderful, but Elizabeth Moss was the best :allears:

In regards to the episode, I loving love how Pryce just seems to dance/float into Don's office to talk up how wonderful the awful, stilted and awkward dinner between them was, it seemed so weirdly out of place for how he normally acts in his scenes.

Harris did such an amazing job of playing a born and bred English gentlemen (in the social sense, not actual noble) dropped into the heart of modern America and just completely loving baffled at how to talk to all these people on a personal level. Everything beyond simple business conversations is beyond him because he came up in the English boarding school-Oxbridge system and people like Don, Roger, or even Pete(his American equivalent more or less) are completely beyond his ability to understand.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Jerusalem posted:

The biggest problem with it to my mind is that Simon didn't have anywhere near the distance he needed to tell a story about the Baltimore Sun, and Ed Burns wasn't around to rein in his worst excesses like Simon was for him in Season 4 and the school storyline.

Simon later noted that he was trying to make a point about how the newspaper and its employees were so caught up in their own self-importance (Gus in particular beneath the surface level "super journalist/editor" bullshit) that even when they had successes they completely failed to note actual major, giant media stories happening right under their noses. Except Simon did a really, really bad job of telling that story, especially since every other "Boss" in the other seasons gets a chance to demonstrate why they are the way they are, the forces that conspired to put them into these positions, the value they actually have in some capacities etc.... but in Season 5, the Baltimore Sun Editors are just incredibly 1-dimensional rear end in a top hat idiots who don't know anything and have dumb concerns and they smell bad too!

Retrospective it's actually weird that season 2 has the reputation of being the weakest season when it's easily as good as the first. Of all the seasons of The Wire 5 is easily the most out of place, as they kind of go a little too far into weird "actually its about ethics in journalism" plot.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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UNRULY_HOUSEGUEST posted:

I honestly had to check to make sure that the guy whose prior take was that Don Draper is too much an avatar for vicarious fantasy and fuckin' Paths of Glory is effectively a pro-war film is also of the opinion that Breaking Bad and The Shield, shows singularly driven by power-abusing white suburbanite guys running over all the rules, are the best TV for being nonstop adrenaline thrill rides. Pick a lane my man

Take a look at their previous rapsheets

https://forums.somethingawful.com/banlist.php?userid=170900

https://forums.somethingawful.com/banlist.php?userid=226764

All from 2020 to now across 3 accounts

2 bans, 35 probes most with an "ironic" racist/homophobic flavor to them.

Hit ignore and just move on past their lovely gimmick.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Fucking nauseating!


Solkanar512 posted:

It would be interesting if there were a set of movie/tv/music awards that are only awarded ten years after release. The 2021 version would cover stuff released in 2011, etc.

Honestly half the fun with things like that is seeing how fast things fall out of fashion.

Crash was 2005 and I don't think I ever saw the movie mentioned again post 2006. Similariy Green Book is probably going the same route with people while Roma, BlackKKKlansman, and Black Panther will be regularly discussed as major cinematic accomplishments for years to come.

The 2000s especially for Best Picture seem pretty dire.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Sash! posted:

I knew Don was a piece of poo poo from the end of the first episode.

A piece of poo poo that's really loving good at his job, but a piece of poo poo nonetheless. The show then proceeds to show us how every character is also a piece of poo poo for one reason or another and that Don is a scared sweaty nobody terrified that the world is one second away from finding out that he's a sweaty nobody. Because once the world finds out he's nothing, then he can't get away with being horrible in every regard.

It isn't that complicated.

Almost like that was the entire point of the pilot.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

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Fucking nauseating!


Shimrra Jamaane posted:

So what does everyone think about Paul Kinsey’s arc?

Probably ends about as well as it can for the doofus that spent the first 2 seasons huffing on a pipe and pretending like he was mister woke society intellectual.

Pete is constantly put upon but his line "what, a nuclear power plant on the east river is fine but this is where you draw the line?" just struck such a cord for who Kinsey was. Everything about him was about building up this refined intelligentsia person when he was really just a dope who didn't know when to shut his mouth completely happy to be working in an industry that rejects idealism for the sake of profit except when it's his idealism.

It don't think they say directly but it sounds like Paul worked his way through some top ad agencies and kept tumbling down the career ladder specifically because he was so resentful he wasn't one of the chosen from the original SC.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Beamed posted:

I would describe the end of season 6 and entirety of season 7 as him really trying to fix himself. In fact you can see glimpses of it in 4 before he bails and takes the easy way out. He does want to be better, he’s just... bad at it.

I wonder if you could conceivably make an argument for the "theme" of each season. I couldn't really think of anything profound but this was the first thing that came to mind.

Season 1 seems like its all about everything being the status quo while showing the rot and decay both morally and professionally that goes on in that business. All the glamour, sexiness and prestige that it comes with is little more then a smokescreen for bad people to do bad things. Nothing is really good or positive and every success comes at a cost for someone. It's very much a "know your place" kind of setting aside from 2 notable exceptions.

Season 2 has more of a focus on progressive attitudes in life, in terms of making change. Peggy and Pete seem to be somewhat upwardly mobile or at least understanding they can't stay the way they were. The season includes bringing in new younger talent with radical ideas. Roger nukes his entire life over deciding to make a fling a permanent thing. Don just walks away for weeks to clear his head and meets with Anna before admitting to Betty he wasn't faithful and wanting to retry having a family. Everyone is trying to make an improvement for the future in their own way, twisted or not.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Shageletic posted:

Yeah this makes sense. The first season is very much white men being unleashed on the young and especially women. I'm thinking of those twins right before Roger's heartattack, what a nasty spectacle that was.

There's a shift in focus in S2 and so far in S3 that allows others to have agency, and things to not be so claustrophobic and expolitative

I think the question of agency is limited in that for most of the cast they still enjoy the privileged even if limited world they live in. Aside from Peggy and maybe Betty, no one is really willing to challenge the conventions of the day. The thing about Kinsey and MSG is the guy who puts up such a show of having ideals and morals crumbles the moment there is any perceived consequence. For people like Don and Roger, they don't see the consequences as significant enough to change their behavior and keep doing what they want regardless.

It's interesting to look at the show from the perspective of privilege. It takes the main cast so far in so many ways yet can easily prove their undoing as the concept of a consequence isn't in their world view. Pete trying to blackmail and Duck eating poo poo in the meeting are two prime examples of that happening with immediate ramifications. Don's escaped any serious backlash for the most part as his value was always higher to the people who could decide to hurt him, Betty, Bert, Roger etc. Roger, well marrying a 20 year old in 1963 comes with an entirely new set of life problems for the man who thought he'd solved all his issues.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Also, entirely possible, Truffaut was a gross womanizing rear end in a top hat who thought he was the greatest thing in film and his intelligentsia opinions need to be viewed in that light.

Making the argument that no matter how a war is portrayed it'll always be "pro war" has less to do with the film itself and more with how some parts of society are so jazzed up for the idea of killing in the name of the state for honor things like nuance and subtlety have no meaning for them. Taking that into consideration to claim even an anti-war film promotes war is meaningless.

I'm not seeing how the argument is different from any fictional books that portray war in a negative light. If all it takes is a spectacle to enthrall someone to think war=good I question the value of that person's opinion counting for anything.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Devorum posted:

16 years on this forum, and I've never ignored a poster until this very moment.

Shocking the guy who burned 2 other accounts with racism/homophobia slurs would be the one that finally pushes someone to use the ignore function.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Episodes like that are a good litmus tests for how people are able to view racially offensive content based in a historical context. I've seen a few people try to claim the show was racist and point to that scene, but you have to be extremely naive to not realize the most of the main cast are visibly disgusted by what Roger is doing, especially Pete. It's a amusing juxtaposition between the upper class who know what is racist and offensive, and the ones who either don't know or don't care.

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pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Sash! posted:

The guy devolves to the point that he watches a cockroach walking through a living room populated by lawn furniture, while freezing because he can't get off his rear end to fix a broken door. It is a disaster entirely made by his own hand, that he was completely capable of preventing or rectifying, but he's a mess of a person. I don't see that as "oh poor Don :(" but "loving hell, you blew your life up, you butt, for no good reason."

Freddie's "fix your bayonet" scene is such a kick in the butt of a line for anyone, but it barely hits Don. I just wanted to mention it because I like that scene.


Your interpretation of the scene is in direct opposition to everything that happens immediately after it.

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