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Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

J-Ru, I want to ask a big concept question. What's the point of the probation system? I think that's where a lot of frustration comes from. No one ever seems to be clear about the point of the probation system, why we use it, and what we expect it to do.

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KungFu Grip
Jun 18, 2008

imo RGL probations and ban are justified because "low effort/low quality poo poo posts that don't add anything to the thread" has always been a forum wide rule and "nxt is bad" was only thing they'd post and he'd do it often enough after Takeover shows and like happened that it was low effort trolling back when NXT was good and had great Takeover shows.

NienNunb
Feb 15, 2012

Banning a long standing member of the community for occasionally being a funny crank towards a wrestling company was hosed any way you paint it, come on now

KungFu Grip
Jun 18, 2008

NienNunb posted:

Banning a long standing member of the community for occasionally being a funny crank towards a wrestling company was hosed any way you paint it, come on now

constantly posting "___ bad" and thats it the the thread wasn't funny no matter how long they posted on the forums

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Mekchu already effectively answered questions re: MMA/Grappling stuff so I'll do my best to get to the rest. If I missed something, remind me and I'll get onto it.

Veskit posted:

Politics is genuinely unavoidable when it’s the fighters persona aka Colby Covington and gamebred and woodly replying black lives matter to anything. Wendy’s drive throughing it seems... I dunno not right?

I believe this is covered pretty firmly in the Rules at Length section - it's acknowledged that politics is sometimes an unavoidable and natural part of the discussion - just as a couple of examples, WWE is extremely tightly wrapped up in the current Trump Administration and also regularly do literal propaganda pieces for the Saudi Royal Family so it is no surprise the politics can and do come up. The rule is explicitly about moving these discussions on to more appropriate subforums if the subject has started to completely overwhelm all other discussion and/or derailed far off the initial wrestling/MMA connection as to be indistinguishable from one of the politics threads. Normally a mod or IK will simply say that the derail has gone on long enough and ask people to move on to a different subject, and it's only if people refuse to let it go and keep digging deeper that any further action is required.

flashy_mcflash posted:

This is partly what I was getting at before, but I do appreciate the responses regarding hornyposting since then.

I appreciate that people can and will call me out if a post crosses a line and I always internalize that when it happens and try to post better, but my preference would be to know where the boundaries are so I don't make posts that upset/offend people in the first place.

In all honesty if you make a post where you have to think,"I hope this isn't crossing the line" then it is probably crossing the line. Having a predefined boundary of what is and isn't a "horny post" is just going to lead to people arguing whether they crossed that arbitary line or not, which is exactly what the situation was like before this rule, which I don't think anybody wants. If you make a post in complete innocence and other posters tell you that it's creepy, just take it on board like you said and adjust your posting accordingly.

If you REALLY want a defined boundary, then hell just don't post anything you wouldn't want your mother to read.

disaster pastor posted:

Jerusalem, I love you, but I really don't think you're understanding what people are saying. I'm not as prolific a poster as I used to be here (honestly, for some of the same reasons people are complaining about), so maybe I shouldn't even be commenting. But a fixed progression doesn't address the overall issue of "mods need to display better judgment when modding FI" (of which "ramping up problem posters" is a sub-issue), it moves to a system where there's almost no judgment, and makes it so any discussion of probations feels pointless because "it was done according to The Rules."

Ramping people up only works if it's the same people doing it over and over. It doesn't work if everyone understands the modding to be "you can get away with it, and even if you get caught, it's only a 6er until you're really on the mods' radar." When the forum is complaining that obvious problem posters are allowed to stick around for months or years and the mods are saying "yes, that was done correctly" or don't even necessarily agree that those posters are problems, there's a divide that really needs to be bridged. When the forum is complaining that the wrong people are being probed, adding a gradual incline to probes doesn't solve anything and probably just drives the divide wider.

Gumball Gumption posted:

J-Ru, I want to ask a big concept question. What's the point of the probation system? I think that's where a lot of frustration comes from. No one ever seems to be clear about the point of the probation system, why we use it, and what we expect it to do.

I may be misreading these posts, but is there a misconception here that ALL probations are going to immediately go 6hr, 1 day, 3day etc now? Because that system is in place not for all posters but those who have shown through post history, number of reports generated and other posters' complaints etc that they're such a disruptive presence that they need heavier probations than other posters might normally get. If I've read the above posts wrong, please clarify, because I was sure that I'd made that clear in the OP and if not then I'll need to rewrite it.

The idea of ramping is something that is forums wide, mods who have identified obvious problem posters will make a point of warning that further shittiness will lead to increasing probation lengths and eventual bans if these posters can't improve (or at least restrain) themselves. The big complaint that came from the feedback in the last thread was that while I'd made a point of identifying these posters, I hadn't been consistent enough in following through on the increased length of probations, which was nobody's fault but my own. The new rule is to lay out a clear structure so that everybody knows exactly what is supposed to happen to somebody who is causing nothing but trouble, not as a general principle for all probations going forward.

disaster pastor posted:

This example in particular. rovert is effectively permabanned; he hasn't posted anywhere else since his ban from this forum. Saying "we got rid of him long after the rest of the forum wanted him gone, and we did so by permabanning him in a way that isn't bureaucratically a permaban!" really sounds like the issues you're trying to address are way off from the issues people actually care about.

As I've said before, the subforum ban for rovert was because I went to the admins asking about what options beyond a ban were available since the next obvious step was a permaban which at the time was really only supposed to be for incredibly monstrous acts, which rovert hadn't done but the bans and months off clearly weren't working either. It just so happened that this coincided with admins wanting to test out an alternative forum feature to permabans by effectively making a forum invisible to a particular user. If they hadn't been looking for a test subject for that experiment, and if the subforum ban hadn't worked out as hoped, rovert would have just been hit with a standard permaban instead.

Also, while while plenty of members of the forum did want him gone for a long time, for a long time there were also a number of posters who were defenders of rovert and would contact me whenever he got a heavy probation or banning, saying they thought he was being unfairly punished. By the time he was kicked out though, few were bothering to defend him anymore and it was near impossible to say he hadn't used up every single chance he'd been given and had nobody but himself to blame. But this goes towards another point, which is that I often get conflicting messages (which is entirely fine, we're not a hive mind) from people about what "the forum" as a whole wants. Part of my role here is taking on board all of these viewpoints and trying my best to resolve issues that arise. My hope is that I'm mostly doing okay in that regard.

Mekchu
Apr 10, 2012

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Also while I'm not super knowledgeable about Sumo and most of Japan's culture surrounding it, I do think the discussions people have had about the efficacy and ethics of their training regimes is acceptable discussion so long as it doesn't stray too close to orientalism (which to be fair Fluffdaddy did call out once before he was a moderator and the thread moved into Fight Island) and sticks mainly to more constructive or helpful explanations about how what those guys go through is absurdly bad for their bodies. Aside from overeating to weigh more.

However if people feel its getting gross, I think most of the sumo posters are more than willing to accept that view and stop the discussion from going too far into that negativity.

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

Even bigger picture. This is an entirely arbitrary system. The rules we make and the way we enforce them is entirely made up by us. So why do we currently use this system, what do we expect the end results to be, and is it the best one we could use? And I'm asking this because I honestly think no one really stops to think about it. I've heard lots of conflicting ideas about what the point of the system is so I'd like to hear your answer and how you think about it.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Gumball Gumption posted:

Even bigger picture. This is an entirely arbitrary system. The rules we make and the way we enforce them is entirely made up by us. So why do we currently use this system, what do we expect the end results to be, and is it the best one we could use? And I'm asking this because I honestly think no one really stops to think about it. I've heard lots of conflicting ideas about what the point of the system is so I'd like to hear your answer and how you think about it.

Well hopefully the end result is people who are real problems in the sub either get the message quick and adjust their posting to no longer be a problem, or they don't learn and very quickly get removed as a problem by the now established progression of probation lengths.

The entire point of probations in general as I see it is to stop people from getting in the way of the threads and various subforums from being used for their intended purpose of discussing the subject they were made for. For most people, a dumb post or silly argument that gets them a warning or a probation is enough to make them correct themselves. For the few that simply cannot help themselves or won't learn, longer probations take them away from disrupting everybody else's posting experience for a longer time.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

~*4 LIFE*~
It's real cool that people complaining about good posters being driven off this forum created an environment where CJ2 got driven off this forum

yea ok
Jul 27, 2006

Oh, is that what happened? He was "driven off this forum" because of 10 posts of criticism and feedback in the feedback thread? From people who have generally advocated and praised him as IK? While the rest of the forum is the same as it's been?

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

~*4 LIFE*~

yea ok posted:

Oh, is that what happened? He was "driven off this forum" because of 10 posts of criticism and feedback in the feedback thread? From people who have generally advocated and praised him as IK? While the rest of the forum is the same as it's been?

Someone sent him a death threat

yea ok
Jul 27, 2006

I'm not following how A leads to B there. I hope whoever did that gets in the maximum amount of trouble, though

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Hey woah what? This is the first I am hearing of this, has this been reported to any of the admins? CJ2 just told me they needed a break because they felt being on the forums wasn't the best for their mental health at the moment.

I will contact CJ2 about this, until I hear directly from the source this subject is off-limits because this is deeply serious poo poo.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

~*4 LIFE*~
I just PMd you J-Ru. Sorry if posting here wasn't the right way of handling this. Shutting up now.

Mekchu
Apr 10, 2012

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Rarity posted:

It's real cool that people complaining about good posters being driven off this forum created an environment where CJ2 got driven off this forum

Nobody drove CJ2 off and this sort of phrasing/passive aggressive posting doesn't help anything either.

Edit 1 - If someone sent a death threat then that's pretty lovely, but that doesn't mean any criticism about CJ2 automatically becomes invalid.

Edit 2 - Just saw the J-Ru remark after posting this. Gonna not talk any further on it.

Mekchu fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Oct 2, 2020

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Right now I'm far more concerned about finding out as much details as I can about this death threat, and seeing what if anything can be done about it. I'm going to close this thread for a few hours so I can concentrate on that, it has to take priority.

Shayna Baszler
Oct 24, 2001

i'll always take care of you
Muldoon
any updates, detective

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Don't be a dick, that is an incredibly poor taste post and this is a not a subject for you to be trying to score points on.

Cavauro
Jan 9, 2008

I am concerned about the death threat person being able to send me a pm and to potentially learn a lot about all of the users on here. Many of them talk quite a lot about their lives. Selfishly I hope there is something done regarding that soon, but I can understand the complications that may lead to an undesirable resolution for that point of view. The workload around here has been bigger than I can remember so I don't mean to prise or push. I don't use the word 'prise' in real life but if I remember correctly you might, so that's why I used it. If not then I shouldn't have used it. Thanks much.

NienNunb
Feb 15, 2012

Please permaban the death threat sender and also please stop using your buttons on people being lightly snippy. Thank you, and god bless.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

I put CJ2 in touch with an admin to pass on any and all information they had available. If an account is identified as being the person behind sending them a death threat, they will be permabanned without a second's hesitation. I still cannot wrap my head around how somebody could be so utterly pathetic and miserable as to do such a thing in the first place.

Hedgehog Pie
May 19, 2012

Total fuckin' silence.
I don't know if it's common knowledge who the death threater actually is amongst regulars now, but like, it's an Internet forum about people fighting who aren't actually fighting (and also pro wrestling). I am stunned that this sort of thing is still happening.

I think almost everyone here still has some very valid criticisms, it's just a shame that we apparently still have to put up with this mid-2000s nonsense. I hope CJ2 is okay and that we see them here again in the future.

mfcrocker
Jan 31, 2004



Hot Rope Guy

NienNunb posted:

Please permaban the death threat sender and also please stop using your buttons on people being lightly snippy. Thank you, and god bless.

It's a perfectly reasonable probation

yea ok
Jul 27, 2006

Would it be possible to get an apology for implying that the posts here enabled someone to send an alleged death threat?

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Rarity already posted an apology that they brought this up in the thread instead of PMing me about it. The situation since then has been dealt with as far as it can be in this forum, and that's an end to the matter unless we hear otherwise from an Admin. If nobody from this subforum sent the message to CJ2, then there's zero concern, and if somebody did, then they can go gently caress themselves as far as I'm concerned.

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Oct 5, 2020

yea ok
Jul 27, 2006

Err. Okay then.

Orange Carlisle
Jul 14, 2007

I can't be the only one thinking the PM sender should be named, shamed and permabanned right

Edit: This goes back to the whole everything happening behind PM's thing making the entire situation seem more shady than it should, and like someone sending death threats via PM is being defended against people knowing who did it

I dunno it just seems very weird every time and right after discussing it suddenly something happens, the thread is closed for days and it's all taken to PMs.

Orange Carlisle fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Oct 5, 2020

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

~*4 LIFE*~

Orange Carlisle posted:

I can't be the only one thinking the PM sender should be named, shamed and permabanned right

It wasn't sent through the site

Orange Carlisle
Jul 14, 2007

Rarity posted:

It wasn't sent through the site

If it was someone that posts here and followed you or someone else off site to send death threats gently caress 'em, ban them here anyway. Being more of a coward with your hate and doing it off-site while making it obvious who you are shouldn't make it any more excusable and people have been banned here for far less. If you genuinely don't know who it is, I understand that. But then there's situations where we all knew who it was.

To be honest I'm still disappointed with how the Dr. Gonzo situation was handled when everyone knew it was the same person but whoops they've got a new name and avatar now, clean slate. That, to me, was a terrible precedent to set and sent a very clear message that if you pay a few bucks you can wipe clean whatever terrible hateful poo poo you send someone's way.

Orange Carlisle fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Oct 5, 2020

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

Just ban them. If I had any faith in this website I could see value in taking about what happened but we will just gently caress it up, people will learn the wrong lessons, and someone will probably get a wild hair up their rear end to do something else lovely because they think it's justified retaliation.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

~*4 LIFE*~
It was sent anonymously from a burner email, there's no way to know who sent it

J-Ru, I'm sorry for continuing the discussion but I figured people should know why 'just ban them' isn't a workable solution

Orange Carlisle
Jul 14, 2007

Rarity posted:

It was sent anonymously from a burner email, there's no way to know who sent it

J-Ru, I'm sorry for continuing the discussion but I figured people should know why 'just ban them' isn't a workable solution

It's an important discussion to have. In the case you don't know who it was that's fair - but there have been cases like I posted about above where everyone on the entire subforum knew who it was and what they did, yet they're still posting today.

I'm just hoping future decisions cause folks to look back on previous ones.

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

Rarity posted:

It was sent anonymously from a burner email, there's no way to know who sent it

J-Ru, I'm sorry for continuing the discussion but I figured people should know why 'just ban them' isn't a workable solution

Thanks for the clarification. Than yeah, not much we can do. Also honestly a clarification that should of been included in J-Ru's update if for no other reason than not explaining what happened leaves people open to piecing together their own story.

Dr. Baker
Jan 25, 2012

Numb me, drill me
Floss me, bill me
I think everyone wants to know what is being done as far as prevention of harassment on this forum.

The Croc
Dec 19, 2004

A-well-a everybody's heard about the bird!

OH YEAH!



I think people just get perma banned for that however maybe its not a one strike thing as wasn't rovert sending people threatening pm's and he got a long rear end run before being tossed.

I think it should be a one and outta here deal there's no room for it.

It is also pretty sad to get that worked up over an internet forum you start threatening people on it.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Yes sorry I was being careful about not providing too much info because I don't know how much CJ2 would be comfortable with being shared. Believe me, if I actually knew who the poster was who was pathetic enough to have emailed a death threat to another poster on a forum about pro-loving-wrestling of all things, I'd have already had them permabanned. As it is, all I could do was get as much information from CJ2 as possible and have them pass it on to somebody higher up who might potentially be able to use that information to find out more.

Cavauro
Jan 9, 2008

My last post was also made with regard for CJ2's wishes in mind, when speaking about the complicated circumstances of the situation. I am mad that someone did that and has made that poster feel unsafe or at the least uncomfortable to post. No one should be made uncomfortable to post around here except the people who are saying awful things about each other for no good reason, and this is the worst thing someone can say.

Paper Lion
Dec 14, 2009




Why was Seth Rollins given 2 Ramping Probations® for the same post? I am confused. Death threats are bad. I want to post peacefully with all the friends on this forum.

flatluigi
Apr 23, 2008

here come the planes

Paper Lion posted:

Why was Seth Rollins given 2 Ramping Probations® for the same post? I am confused. Death threats are bad. I want to post peacefully with all the friends on this forum.

mods can only give one day probations max without admin approval and seth rollins concern trolling for like the third time in this two page thread was considered worth a longer one

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Cavauro
Jan 9, 2008

I felt that the post was a joke about the act of closing this thread in order to focus on another task, rather than trying to mock a death threat. edit: I hope it's ok to say my thoughts on that matter for what they are worth and not in an attempt to change anything. You can't stop progress.

Cavauro fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Oct 6, 2020

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