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Kalit
Nov 6, 2006


DoomTrainPhD posted:

Honest question: What left-wing things has Biden done specifically? I can't actually think of a single progressive thing Biden has done yet.

Edit* He has done a lot of liberal things, some of them quite good! Just uh, I can't really think of anything that falls under the definition of progressive.

I've been following the follow ups on this post, but wanted get back to where it's first brought up. First of all, what's your definition between "left-wing", "progressive", and "liberal"? It's very hard to tell from your post and you seem to use left-wing and progressive interchangeably, but not liberal.

To note, the poster you're responding to did not say anything about "progressive", just "left-wing" in a passing statement with regards to approval ratings of Biden

Then, in a later post, a suggestion of you google things/a throw out of refugee cap is offered:

Pick posted:

I dunno maybe try googling stuff or something instead of coming in demanding that we explain how sanctions on the Burmese military works and the like with answers that you can literally put into a search bar verbatim. But in this case, a great example is the over 10x increase in the refugee cap, a position too left-wing to have majority support.

Which doesn't use the term "left-wing" or progressive".

Then, you responded with this (along with a graph of refugee caps over the past ~30 years):

DoomTrainPhD posted:

Ignoring the insane hostility and lovely attitude for a genuine question, looking at the 10x increase in the refugee cap seems to bring it back to a little over 1994 levels? I mean, it's a great thing for sure, but looking at the historical refugee cap it doesn't seem like a huge step and mostly it just reverses what Trump did. So the question then I have is: Is reversing Trump's policies considered progressive now?

You seemed to drop the "left-wing" term completely for "progressive". So do you deem these terms identical? I definitely do not and it seems like you're shifting goal posts quite a bit....

E: Have a dog with snow tax since it's cold as gently caress where I live:

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Jaxyon
Mar 6, 2016
boring as hell and also can be low-key racist

Also I want to add that the Star Wars fandom has for years hit the level of toxicity that Rick and Morty is at.

It's really, really bad and there are so many bad ones.

DoomTrainPhD
Feb 12, 2009



Kalit posted:

You seemed to drop the "left-wing" term completely for "progressive". So do you deem these terms identical? I definitely do not and it seems like you're shifting goal posts quite a bit.

I guess to me "liberal" is more center right than left-wing, and left/progressive are almost interchangeable?

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009


Increasing the deficit is more likely to attract Republican deficit hawk support for a bill.

Except when it is for healthcare, unemployment aid, direct stimulus, or state aid.

https://twitter.com/jimtankersley/status/1360020958640226320

Kalit
Nov 6, 2006


DoomTrainPhD posted:

I guess to me "liberal" is more center right than left-wing, and left/progressive are almost interchangeable?

A suggestion: maybe you should ask the OP (Leon Trotsky 2012 in this case) about their definitions before changing terms of a post you're replying to....

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Edmund Lava posted:

There’s an entire cottage industry of right wing hot takes about SJWs coming for your precious nerd poo poo. Reality be damned, these people likely never watched the show and know their fans lack object permanence.
yeah people work themselves up in furors about imaginary monsters here to ruin nerd poo poo. it's not even really a problem exclusive to right wingers, even if there's way more of a dedicated industry on that side of things, everything's so subsumed by culture war poo poo that you get people with no interest in the thing being discussed rushing to pick a side just because they saw it on twitter.

Anias
Jun 3, 2010

It really is a lovely hat


The Artificial Kid posted:

“Project Veritas” is possibly the most perfect encapsulation of the post-truth nature of the modern right wing. Create an organisation with the specific aim of faking footage of evil acts by “the left” and literally call it “project truth”.

You're assuming Project as a noun, they're using it as a verb while counting on everyone reading it assuming it is a noun for credibility.

Flopsy
Mar 4, 2013



https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/1359913357877403648

At the rate they're not even hiding this poo poo anymore I fully expect in 2024 the presidential candidates to be howling how many democrats they would've merc'd if they just had the chance.

Jaxyon
Mar 6, 2016
boring as hell and also can be low-key racist

DoomTrainPhD posted:

I guess to me "liberal" is more center right than left-wing, and left/progressive are almost interchangeable?

This is very telling and not all a common take outside, like, this forum and other very online places

For most left is leftwing, like open socialists, and progressive is the left side of liberal that goes over to center.

Leftist<<>>Progressive<<>>Liberal(center-left)<<>>Center<<>>Center-Right<<>>Right<<>>Far-Right/Nazi

Some folks claim to be liberal but are actually center/center-right and the average leftist wouldn't be caught dead being called a progressive.

edit: The gap between liberal/progressive and "leftist" is the source of a lot of argument. Often folks who identify with "liberal" will side with the right before the left...so you may have a point there.

Edmund Lava
Sep 8, 2004

Hey, I'm from Brooklyn. I'm going to call myself Mr. Friendly.



Jaxyon posted:

Also I want to add that the Star Wars fandom has for years hit the level of toxicity that Rick and Morty is at.

It's really, really bad and there are so many bad ones.

The Star Wars fandom has always been a bit toxic. The difference now is that it’s being weaponized intentionally by white supremicist.

They realized they hit a vein with Gamergate and keep moving through the nerd fandoms hoping to strike it rich again. Pretty much everything from comic books to ren faires have had coordinated attacks.

Doesn’t help of course that Google is intentionally pointing people at their howling screeds to generate engagement.

fr0id
Jul 27, 2016

Goodness no, now that wouldn't do at all!


Hey y’all. I have a bit of request. I remember several years back (10-15, maybe?) there was an article about abortion. It was focused around women who believed abortion should be illegal but had one anyway. It may have been its own website. It was called something like “not my abortion” or similar. Does anyone remember this and know the article or website?

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009


fr0id posted:

Hey y’all. I have a bit of request. I remember several years back (10-15, maybe?) there was an article about abortion. It was focused around women who believed abortion should be illegal but had one anyway. It may have been its own website. It was called something like “not my abortion” or similar. Does anyone remember this and know the article or website?

https://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml

Jaxyon
Mar 6, 2016
boring as hell and also can be low-key racist

^^^


fr0id posted:

Hey y’all. I have a bit of request. I remember several years back (10-15, maybe?) there was an article about abortion. It was focused around women who believed abortion should be illegal but had one anyway. It may have been its own website. It was called something like “not my abortion” or similar. Does anyone remember this and know the article or website?

The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion

Flopsy
Mar 4, 2013



fr0id posted:

Hey y’all. I have a bit of request. I remember several years back (10-15, maybe?) there was an article about abortion. It was focused around women who believed abortion should be illegal but had one anyway. It may have been its own website. It was called something like “not my abortion” or similar. Does anyone remember this and know the article or website?

"My abortion is the only moral abortion" or something along those lines I think. I read it a while back. It was mostly about religious women making excuses why it was okay when they got abortions but the filthiest of sins when anyone else did.

Kalit
Nov 6, 2006


Jaxyon posted:

This is very telling and not all a common take outside, like, this forum and other very online places

For most left is leftwing, like open socialists, and progressive is the left side of liberal that goes over to center.

Leftist<<>>Progressive<<>>Liberal(center-left)<<>>Center<<>>Center-Right<<>>Right<<>>Far-Right/Nazi

Some folks claim to be liberal but are actually center/center-right and the average leftist wouldn't be caught dead being called a progressive.

edit: The gap between liberal/progressive and "leftist" is the source of a lot of argument. Often folks who identify with "liberal" will side with the right before the left...so you may have a point there.

They do not have a point. The term they changed was "left-wing" to "progressive". Not "leftist" to "progressive". Liberal was never used by the OP, Leon Trotsky 2012. It was used by DoomTrainPhd to try to assist with covering their tracks on shifting the term "left-wing" to "progressive".

E: To clarify, I think "left-wing" is "left of center [of the US populace]". I think "progressive" is "far left of center [of the US populace]". I"m guessing this train of thought isn't too far off from most other people in the US. Regardless, these terms are definitely subjective and shouldn't be interchanged without clarification of the person using them.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Feb 12, 2021

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009





Edmund Lava posted:

The Star Wars fandom has always been a bit toxic. The difference now is that it’s being weaponized intentionally by white supremicist.

They realized they hit a vein with Gamergate and keep moving through the nerd fandoms hoping to strike it rich again. Pretty much everything from comic books to ren faires have had coordinated attacks.

Doesn’t help of course that Google is intentionally pointing people at their howling screeds to generate engagement.

Also well, people clinging to nerd nostalgia from the Golden Age of their youth decade, I mean ... can you think of any more potent engine of reactionaryism?

PhazonLink
Jul 17, 2010


e: ^ ah yes gators, kinda want to say that my comic book example was a few years before that, but i'm not sure, i'm a non eletronic non old men but the years are all melding into each other.


I know Miles Morales was the first big nerd culture war thying I saw on Fox News, so some loving regressive ghoul had good sense to know there was a well of poo poo waiting to be tapped into around 2010ish.

Kale
May 14, 2010


Edmund Lava posted:

The Star Wars fandom has always been a bit toxic. The difference now is that it’s being weaponized intentionally by white supremicist.

They realized they hit a vein with Gamergate and keep moving through the nerd fandoms hoping to strike it rich again. Pretty much everything from comic books to ren faires have had coordinated attacks.

Doesn’t help of course that Google is intentionally pointing people at their howling screeds to generate engagement.

It's extremely hard not to notice and based on the whole Playstation censorship thing that doesn't exist taking hold in the gaming community I'd say they're making some headway unfortunately. That just seems to be the general theme all around. You're being censored or denied something somehow by liberals that run Hollywood, Sony Playstation, DC Comics whatever who are also trying to brainwash you with woke SJW feminism/tokenism (no explanation as to why these things are bad, they just are and this refrain gets crammed down your throat until you accept it or leave the website/community) and you need to take a stand by joining conservative ideologies and voting for or at least supporting and signal boosting Republicans. I agree it definitely seems like an attempt to recreate the conditions of Gamergate except it's not playing into a plausible narrative to work from like video game journalists being on the take and posting glowing reviews of games by big publishers that actually have glaring issues or whatever, but completely made up poo poo (Playstation censoring games all over the place like they're 1950 TV program sponsors) or making a problem out something that literally isn't one (Oh no women and non-white people in video games and comic book movies are doing stuff)

One thing I'm sure of as a lot of them don't strike me as real fans of the material itself. They only ever seem to talk about the material in the context of political agendas they are projecting onto it and never seem to know anything about whatever it is they are going on about other than absolute surface level details they've skimmed off of chatter by regular fans searching for weaknesses to exploit and any exchange with them will usually reveal this within a couple back and forth's. Typically they'll adopt a strategy like calling for backup or just going full mad bull on the attack trying to smear you as an "SJW" and invalidate your opinion. This is in the event of course that they show up alone to begin with to start shitposting as usually it's all at once and coordinated as you say so any sane group of people tend to be outnumbered in the discussion that ensues making it hard to establish common sense and argue on the merits and canonity of things.

It just strikes me as so hard to believe that so many people could possibly be a fan of something yet be so singularly and utterly focused on specific political ideology issues that have little do with that thing. Like how can you ever come to genuinely appreciate anything that way in anything that approaches natural? This is also a world of difference from people who criticize media on the actual merits or demerits of the work itself mind you, like the difference is immediately noticeable and established when they talk about literally anything other than conservative talking points.

They were also moving from big media release to big game release noticeably and very quickly for a while trying to score a hit. One second it was Mass Effect III at the dawn of Gamergate, then it was The Last Jedi, then it was Captain Marvel, then it was FFVII Remake, then it was The Last of Us Part II and it always seemed to center around some mad beef about a woman be it a character in the media or someone on the production team.

Kale fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Feb 12, 2021

Edmund Lava
Sep 8, 2004

Hey, I'm from Brooklyn. I'm going to call myself Mr. Friendly.



PhazonLink posted:

e: ^ ah yes gators, kinda want to say that my comic book example was a few years before that, but i'm not sure, i'm a non eletronic non old men but the years are all melding into each other.


I know Miles Morales was the first big nerd culture war thying I saw on Fox News, so some loving regressive ghoul had good sense to know there was a well of poo poo waiting to be tapped into around 2010ish.

Fox News poo poo themselves when they made Batwoman, a character who hadn’t been in comics for ~30 years at that point, a lesbian. It’s been tried before but never to the success Gamergate achieved.

Bugsy
Jul 15, 2004

I'm thumpin'. That's
why they call me
'Thumper'.




Slippery Tilde

TulliusCicero posted:

What did that dipshit do now?

Supposedly no address or anything visible in the video.
https://twitter.com/WilliamTurton/status/1359961882807984134

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Eh, playstation definitely made some changes to what they demand of pervy Japanese games in localization, multiple companies have confirmed that. Of course that's very different from Sony going around making it illegal to have tits in your game.

PhazonLink
Jul 17, 2010


anyone remember when James "sexboat" OKeef was a lanky thin white nerd ? kinda weird that my mental image of him is of the lanky kid in a pimp suit on fox and now he's just a normalish white dude in a suit.

Young Freud
Nov 25, 2006



Bugsy posted:

Supposedly no address or anything visible in the video.
https://twitter.com/WilliamTurton/status/1359961882807984134

Pulled an Alex Jones: hosed around with the social media kings and found out.

Hasturtium
May 19, 2020

A VAST WIFE WING CONSPIRACY

Xand_Man posted:

Are these seriously takes that having a buff female fighter on the Mandalorian is unrealistic SJW pandering... which is portrayed by an actual buff female fighter?

drat it, man! It’s not about what’s true, it’s about performative word slurry in pursuit of what they want!

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Endorph posted:

yeah people work themselves up in furors about imaginary monsters here to ruin nerd poo poo. it's not even really a problem exclusive to right wingers, even if there's way more of a dedicated industry on that side of things, everything's so subsumed by culture war poo poo that you get people with no interest in the thing being discussed rushing to pick a side just because they saw it on twitter.

There's definitely a big problem of the twitter 'invent a guy, trick yourself into believing he exists and get real mad at him' all round, or finding a take that like six actual people have and acting like it's an angry mob beating down your door.

Endorph posted:

Eh, playstation definitely made some changes to what they demand of pervy Japanese games in localization, multiple companies have confirmed that. Of course that's very different from Sony going around making it illegal to have tits in your game.

Was extra funny when Nintendo was just 'Yeah, whatever' to the same games.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009


In the right-wing media narrative, nobody has ever died of natural causes or been killed by a right-winger.

Millions die every year to make Trump look bad.

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1360013163580768256

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Hasturtium posted:

drat it, man! It’s not about what’s true, it’s about performative word slurry in pursuit of what they want!

heck its not even about what they want. half the people mad about that dont even care about the mandalorian. its about denying imagined enemies what they want, or making them mad. 'triggering the libs' type stuff. and like i said that cuts both ways, you can absolutely see people on the left prioritizing making conservatives mad over all else. and ive got nothing against trolling republicans so this def isn't a 'both sides are equally bad' thing or whatever, but when it dominates conversation it gets real tiresome. it's kind of the natural endpoint of a two party system i think, everything eventually gets melted down into ammo to use on the other side.

punishedkissinger
Sep 20, 2017



Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

In the right-wing media narrative, nobody has ever died of natural causes or been killed by a right-winger.

Millions die every year to make Trump look bad.

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1360013163580768256

he died "with" brute force trauma ok?

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009


This is an article written by an editor of the leading "intellectual conservative" magazine.

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1360041103924334599

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

his skull just crumpled. some say it was the Lord.

DoomTrainPhD
Feb 12, 2009



Kalit posted:

They do not have a point. The term they changed was "left-wing" to "progressive". Not "leftist" to "progressive". Liberal was never used by the OP, Leon Trotsky 2012. It was used by DoomTrainPhd to try to assist with covering their tracks on shifting the term "left-wing" to "progressive".

You asked me what my definition was and I told you my definition. I’m not sure how that constitutes “covering my tracks.”

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

what actually happened is his head ejected a fire extinguisher, like minera springing from the head of jupiter, but someone played the video back wards

Kale
May 14, 2010


Endorph posted:

Eh, playstation definitely made some changes to what they demand of pervy Japanese games in localization, multiple companies have confirmed that. Of course that's very different from Sony going around making it illegal to have tits in your game.

Yeah they did like I said, but it's nothing even remotely close to what the people that go on about it constantly and hysterically insist it is and they've even started pre-bitching about games being censored after it's announced they'll be localized which is generally really annoying and stupid and usually proves to be literally nothing whenever a game gets localized from over there.

Generally here's what actually happens, let's say a game like Persona 5 comes out here from overseas in Japan. There's noted to be sexual innuendo, female characters that are still minors in revealing or tight form fitting clothing, substance abuse, cartoon violence, a subplot about rape that doesn't glorify the crime and makes it evident that it's a crime (this is key otherwise enjoy your refusal to assign a rating and probable blacklisting as a publisher), gambling themes etc. It's some pretty intense content that may be unsettling to minor players or make their guardians uncomfortable with it so it's assigned an MA-17 rating as a guideline for buyers before it's put on the market. This apparently got tightened up a bit more so some games that used to go under T might go under MA-17 now instead, UNLESS some changes are made that qualify it under the new rules for T at which point it would get the T rating instead. This puts the Publishers in a bit of a decision making process as to whether they want to make the changes for T and probably having an easier time selling copies or to just stand pat and take the MA-17 which while not the death sentence that X or refusal to assign a rating is is a tougher sell.

Nobody is going out of their way to try to make a game that will get them the dreaded X rating or a refusal to assign rating which seems to be what some of these people think is being denied them in localizations by Playstation, which is really dumb frankly. Some people also seem to misunderstand this whole process either willfully or take it to some extreme because they have to believe everything that happens around them is a big loving blowout of a deal somehow or fodder for their political agenda, because otherwise what I described in the middle paragraph is kind of just procedural and boring.

Kalit
Nov 6, 2006


DoomTrainPhD posted:

You asked me what my definition was and I told you my definition. I’m not sure how that constitutes “covering my tracks.”

Your edit in the post:

DoomTrainPhD posted:

Honest question: What left-wing things has Biden done specifically? I can't actually think of a single progressive thing Biden has done yet.

Edit* He has done a lot of liberal things, some of them quite good! Just uh, I can't really think of anything that falls under the definition of progressive.

It appears that you felt like you needed to clarify your use of the term "left-wing" to mean progressive and not liberal. This admits that not everyone might interpret the term "left-wing" the same. So you shifted it to what you wanted it to mean, ignoring what the OP intended it to mean.

E: To summarize, if someone says "of course left-wing policies will result in a higher approval rating among Democrats", I think it's disingenuous/in bad faith to challenge them by asking "what progressive policies has Biden passed?!?!". This is clearly asking someone to defend a statement they never made.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Feb 12, 2021

TulliusCicero
Jul 29, 2017



Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

This is an article written by an editor of the leading "intellectual conservative" magazine.

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1360041103924334599

ah yes, tourists are well known to smash windows and steal government property, and bludgeon and crush cops in doors

Jesus loving christ the GOP is actually the loving Party in 1984

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009



Fun Shoe

TulliusCicero posted:

Jesus loving christ the GOP is actually the loving Party in 1984

Minister of Bipartisanship Mitch McConnell

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006


Kalit posted:

It appears that you felt like you needed to clarify your use of the term "left-wing" to mean progressive and not liberal. This admits that not everyone might interpret the term "left-wing" the same. So you shifted it to what you wanted it to mean, ignoring what the OP intended it to mean.

I think of "progressive" as a label that used to be left wing but has been coopted by liberals, and therefore is mostly useless in mixed company.

I can't speak for Doom but here's a related question of mine: what had Biden done to increase worker control over the means of production?

Kalit
Nov 6, 2006


PerniciousKnid posted:

I think of "progressive" as a label that used to be left wing but has been coopted by liberals, and therefore is mostly useless in mixed company.

I can't speak for Doom but here's a related question of mine: what had Biden done to increase worker control over the means of production?

I edited my post above to include this, but my point is if someone says "of course left-wing policies will result in a higher approval rating among Democrats", I think it's disingenuous/in bad faith to challenge them by asking "what progressive policies has Biden passed?!?!". This is clearly asking someone to defend a statement they never made.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Feb 12, 2021

James Garfield
May 5, 2012

Paleontologists must have looked into it before. Maybe they had, but never ran with it. Or maybe the thought simply never occurred to them. Maybe the stand hunting from a tree strategy had never been applied to T. rex.


PerniciousKnid posted:

what had Biden done to increase worker control over the means of production?

I do not think that is what was originally meant by "doing left-wing things makes left-wing Democrats like you and seems to have no negative impact on conservative or moderate Democrats' opinion of you."

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Harold Fjord
Jan 3, 2004



James Garfield posted:

I do not think that is what was originally meant by "doing left-wing things makes left-wing Democrats like you and seems to have no negative impact on conservative or moderate Democrats' opinion of you."

That's what was originally meant by "left wing"

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