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Vox Valentine
May 31, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.

Thank you System Mastery for once again introducing me to a loving bizarre song because Jef had a weird idea. This is at least better than Jordi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeIb7Ms4xHc

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Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 13 hours!
The problem with Santa's Soldiers is that you're fighting on the wrong side. The game should be about the partisan resistance of other holidays to the brutal, soul-annihilating hegemony of Christmas. Thanksgiving has already been overrun, and Halloween is Stalingrad

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Hostile V posted:

Thank you System Mastery for once again introducing me to a loving bizarre song because Jef had a weird idea. This is at least better than Jordi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeIb7Ms4xHc

Never before has a song so sounded like one-off Muppets should be performing it.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.
I've listened to it twice and still don't have a definitive answer on "racist" or "not racist."

EverettLO
Jul 2, 2007
I'm a lurker no more


Rick posted:

I've listened to it twice and still don't have a definitive answer on "racist" or "not racist."

Good news! Based off a reading of the Wikipedia page, it appears to be not racist! Instead it was used in a British children's show and "narrated a surreal story of a little boy seeking the parts to mend his grandfather clock. The lyrics relate to this story, the song being sung by a metronome who has been expelled by the Clockwork King."

The seventies, man.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.

EverettLO posted:

Good news! Based off a reading of the Wikipedia page, it appears to be not racist! Instead it was used in a British children's show and "narrated a surreal story of a little boy seeking the parts to mend his grandfather clock. The lyrics relate to this story, the song being sung by a metronome who has been expelled by the Clockwork King."

The seventies, man.

drat that is some wild poo poo. The 70s, you're right.

mellonbread
Dec 20, 2017
Catching up on Ludonarrative Dissidents, and their Outlaws of the Water Margin discussion is a real departure from previous entries in the series. James Wallis is dead weight in every other episode, but when they discuss the one game he's actually played, he comes to life - talking about rules and narrative design instead of just bitching about the typography.

General Ironicus
Aug 21, 2008

Something about this feels kinda hinky
It's generally not a show on the topic, but the two latest episodes of Game Studies Study Buddies are on RPG history and communities, and I think people here would get a lot out of them. The show is a book club for the academic field of Game Studies, but they've just finished a matched pair of episodes on books specifically about TTRPGs.

46 – Peterson – The Elusive Shift
Jon Peterson's history of the earliest days of the RPG hobby through his exhaustive library of fanzines from the 70s and 80s. Really shows that every argument about RPGs going on today is older than most of the people having it.

45 – Schleiner – The Player’s Power To Change the Game
A history and distillation of The Forge, which is, necessarily, in part a look at Ron Edwards. Featuring guest host Austin Walker.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



I saw the Austin Walker one and have it set aside for next time I make bao or something that takes 3 hours, would you mind giving a preview/summary to wet my appetite?

General Ironicus
Aug 21, 2008

Something about this feels kinda hinky

Xiahou Dun posted:

I saw the Austin Walker one and have it set aside for next time I make bao or something that takes 3 hours, would you mind giving a preview/summary to wet my appetite?

The biggest criticism they have is that the book lacks a theoretical framework or argument that they expect, as a show about academic works. But it is valuable reportage and they point out a number of possible avenues for another writer to do that work. The three of them trying to piece together The Big Model from an infographic that looks like a shitpost is great. So is the moment where the author breaks down how prolific Ron Edwards was as a percentage of all posts across the Forge’s entire history. There’s also a lot of talk about how the culture, reputation, and legacy of The Forge are products of the forum structure and its moderation policy.

And here’s a clip that makes more sense when you know the topic of another show on the Ranged Touch network: https://twitter.com/darnn/status/1531772934330667015

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

General Ironicus posted:

The biggest criticism they have is that the book lacks a theoretical framework or argument that they expect, as a show about academic works. But it is valuable reportage and they point out a number of possible avenues for another writer to do that work. The three of them trying to piece together The Big Model from an infographic that looks like a shitpost is great. So is the moment where the author breaks down how prolific Ron Edwards was as a percentage of all posts across the Forge’s entire history. There’s also a lot of talk about how the culture, reputation, and legacy of The Forge are products of the forum structure and its moderation policy.

And here’s a clip that makes more sense when you know the topic of another show on the Ranged Touch network: https://twitter.com/darnn/status/1531772934330667015

That book looks like it would be right up my alley but woof that academic price tag.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



Absurd Alhazred posted:

That book looks like it would be right up my alley but woof that academic price tag.

Slip a first year grad student beer money. Academic access + poverty.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Xiahou Dun posted:

Slip a first year grad student beer money. Academic access + poverty.

:hmmyes:

Sionak
Dec 20, 2005

Mind flay the gap.

mellonbread posted:

Catching up on Ludonarrative Dissidents, and their Outlaws of the Water Margin discussion is a real departure from previous entries in the series. James Wallis is dead weight in every other episode, but when they discuss the one game he's actually played, he comes to life - talking about rules and narrative design instead of just bitching about the typography.

It was an interesting discussion of exactly what playing role playing games in college at that time was like, too. He got fairly excited about Ars Magica as well, having played that one.

I generally agree, though. In other episodes, Wallis seems overly negative and - while I understand that everyone has their professional pet peeves - I just don't care about columns not being exactly matched in the Blades in the Dark layout. It's a bit of a bummer because I really enjoy hearing Greg Stolze and Ross Payton enthuse about the games they cover.

Helical Nightmares
Apr 30, 2009

Xiahou Dun posted:

Slip a first year grad student beer money. Academic access + poverty.

Unironically this. Also I've found driving a grad student to Costco earns their eternal loyalty.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



Helical Nightmares posted:

Unironically this. Also I've found driving a grad student to Costco earns their eternal loyalty.

I figured it out when I was running this reading group and sometimes we'd need a section of a book from 1973 that only exists in Tromsø or whatever. Just start messaging around until you find a friend of a friend of an ex's friend, just wire 'em enough for a decent dinner or something, gently caress yeah they'll spend 20 minutes scanning some poo poo and e-mailing it to you.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

General Ironicus posted:

It's generally not a show on the topic, but the two latest episodes of Game Studies Study Buddies are on RPG history and communities, and I think people here would get a lot out of them. The show is a book club for the academic field of Game Studies, but they've just finished a matched pair of episodes on books specifically about TTRPGs.

46 – Peterson – The Elusive Shift
Jon Peterson's history of the earliest days of the RPG hobby through his exhaustive library of fanzines from the 70s and 80s. Really shows that every argument about RPGs going on today is older than most of the people having it.

45 – Schleiner – The Player’s Power To Change the Game
A history and distillation of The Forge, which is, necessarily, in part a look at Ron Edwards. Featuring guest host Austin Walker.
I'm listening to the Peterson ep and it's fascinating stuff, thanks!

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.

General Ironicus posted:

It's generally not a show on the topic, but the two latest episodes of Game Studies Study Buddies are on RPG history and communities, and I think people here would get a lot out of them. The show is a book club for the academic field of Game Studies, but they've just finished a matched pair of episodes on books specifically about TTRPGs.

46 – Peterson – The Elusive Shift
Jon Peterson's history of the earliest days of the RPG hobby through his exhaustive library of fanzines from the 70s and 80s. Really shows that every argument about RPGs going on today is older than most of the people having it.

45 – Schleiner – The Player’s Power To Change the Game
A history and distillation of The Forge, which is, necessarily, in part a look at Ron Edwards. Featuring guest host Austin Walker.

It's interesting being mainly a SAS poster, seeing how cyclical the arguments are there (and sports forums in general), even when the game fundamentally changes and players pass through, a lot of the arguments are either the same or very similar. But this did a nice job demonstrating with trad games, it's like, literally the same arguments. I also liked in the second episode how Mike talked about just missing their Gen Con moments. I laughed at the idea of playing D&D in high school when like 5 of my friends got into it, but I wonder what would have happened had I showed up because I am sure I would have gotten into it.

ninjoatse.cx
Apr 9, 2005

Fun Shoe
Game Studies Study Buddies is a great podcast, so far. I listened to last few episodes, and then I went back to the beginning and started listening from there. They start out as a combination of academic critique, discussion, and also just plain book reviews of major game studies texts. I ordered some of the books for myself, and discovered that I much prefer someone giving me the summaries of the chapters and reading an opinion you disagree with for 49 pages when they missed their mark on page 2 is loving painful.

Looking forward to more. I also hope there's more discussion in this thread.

Sionak
Dec 20, 2005

Mind flay the gap.

Siivola posted:

I'm listening to the Peterson ep and it's fascinating stuff, thanks!

Agreed, these episodes (and this podcast) were a really great recommendation. It is fascinating to see the same discussions and arguments from the very early days of the hobby.

Lumbermouth
Mar 6, 2008

GREG IS BIG NOW


The Kevin and Kell RPG discussion got an audible "what the gently caress is happening here" from my fiancee, 10/10 new System Mastery.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



Lumbermouth posted:

The Kevin and Kell RPG discussion got an audible "what the gently caress is happening here" from my fiancee, 10/10 new System Mastery.

Yeah, I mainline Knowledge Fight 3 times a week and I still perked the absolute gently caress up for that.

The most absolutely bonkers poo poo I've heard in ages.

actually3raccoons
Jun 5, 2013



Xiahou Dun posted:

Yeah, I mainline Knowledge Fight 3 times a week and I still perked the absolute gently caress up for that.

The most absolutely bonkers poo poo I've heard in ages.

I could listen to them talk about that madness as its own separate podcast, but I wouldn't wish that on Jef and Jon. They've done nothing to deserve such a cruel fate.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.
Holy poo poo you aren’t kidding. I listened to that one today and it doesn’t quit being hilarious and odd at any point.

Also enjoying the anniversary episode.I have been listening for a long time but never heard the actual cheese dude bits and wondered what the reference was when joining the Patreon a few months ago. That sounds bomb.

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 13 hours!
I think I'm more qualified than anyone I know to do "System Mastery, but a dry cold humourless review." But who wants to do that? You know that the audience for it is going to check your work, and get mad if you were wrong about an art credit on the 1985 boxed set or whatever.

Ragnar34
Oct 10, 2007

Lipstick Apathy
After System Mastery's Kevin and Kell thing, I dove into everything I've heard of and liked and/or hated. Good podcast! Good podcast.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

Ragnar34 posted:

After System Mastery's Kevin and Kell thing, I dove into everything I've heard of and liked and/or hated. Good podcast! Good podcast.
I've been a patron for a few years and love every episode. But it's still absolutely positively shameful they haven't done Powers and Perils yet. And yes, theironjef, I know drat well you're reading this! :argh:

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

dwarf74 posted:

I've been a patron for a few years and love every episode. But it's still absolutely positively shameful they haven't done Powers and Perils yet. And yes, theironjef, I know drat well you're reading this! :argh:

Am not, I'm on vacation in the Rockies. Oh wait, poo poo.

Ragnar34
Oct 10, 2007

Lipstick Apathy
You could probably work out what they think of Powers and Perils. I was wondering what they think of 13th Age but at this point I basically know.

Craziest thing about them is, they're good at being right when they hate the things that I hate, but they really go off the rails when they start on the things I like. Nobilis is perfect actually? Like what the gently caress??

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Haven't read P&P. 13th Age is fine but made hilarious by all those dumb poo poo Tweet sidebars. We'll probably get to it soon now that... well you know.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

theironjef posted:

Haven't read P&P. 13th Age is fine but made hilarious by all those dumb poo poo Tweet sidebars. We'll probably get to it soon now that... well you know.
I'm running it for the first time now. We're having a good enough time but the rulebook is.... Lacking.

Whole paragraphs are written like edition war forum replies, passive-aggressively published off-site. Others are just patting themselves on the back about how clever they are. And it's really hard to find actual mechanics when you're looking for them.

It's a lot like your podcast.

ninjoatse.cx
Apr 9, 2005

Fun Shoe
13th age is written in a tone that you've played TTRPGs before, and the GM section is just rubbed all over everything to sink in. Like a polish. Or a wine stain. Or whatever you were preparing on your cutting board last week and now it smells weird.

Ragnar34
Oct 10, 2007

Lipstick Apathy

dwarf74 posted:

Whole paragraphs are written like edition war forum replies, passive-aggressively published off-site. Others are just patting themselves on the back about how clever they are. And it's really hard to find actual mechanics when you're looking for them.

It's a lot like your podcast.

Stop trying to make me like Jonathan Tweet.

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 13 hours!
Psi World is intriguing to me, for pretty much the same reason as the Lawnmower Man game. There's something about incredibly sketchy settings that gets me projecting a lot of stuff onto it and making connections that weren't there in the first place. I guess this is why I like new games like NEUROCITY that have a strong central theme but leave a lot of specifics up to the GM.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry
Well dang, System Mastery went into Apocalypse World. Took some notes on it.
  • The Driver and the Operator's sex moves are basically downsides for them because of all the other sex moves that are more potentially beneficial for both parties, so that even if the driver and operator are doing it for benefits there's still that hook to it. What a surprise that the car gigger and the hustle gigger have their hangups, eh? (The sex move thing remains in 2E but is understandably dropped for Burned Over, the more PG-13 version of the game they're hacking out. Vincent put it in-game in the first place because Meguey is a sex educator and he wanted to make a game that recognized that sex was a human activity that people can engage in for beneficial reasons, but if you want something to be beneficial in an RPG you've got to stick numbers on it and here we go.)
  • Blades in the Dark, which clocks so much clock that it's off the clock, put "Powered by the Apocalypse" on itself for a dang good reason: John Harper's original World of Dungeons campaign wound up closing the door to the underworld and snuffing out the sun, and he was like "hey this might could be neat" and followed up on it. One of his first developments in this regard was a game more mechanically similar to Apocalypse World: Ghost Lines, about the railroad bulls on the lightning rails that go between the towns like Duskwall, where all the hop-on hobos are howling ghosts from the wastes.
  • Yeah, by and large Apocalypse World is meant to be played with the PCs sitting in the center of a bullseye, in a place of relative safety and security, with threats vectoring in at them. This is how the threat map setup works and much more explicitly so in second edition. There are a few playbooks who are more like what you'd call adventurers, the battlebabe and gunlugger especially, but you're playing any of the notable figures in the post-apocalypse and not all of them are notable because they're good in a fight or good under pressure. Other games in the engine move away from this "all dramatic persons" idea and focus in on the part of the society that is the part that goes adventuring, and the basic moves and features should drift some to follow that assumption.
  • Hx is actually an abbreviation for "history", but it's more in a medical context. Rx abbreviates prescription (based on the Latin directive "recipe", or "take"), and out of that other shorthands developed: Hx for medical history, Dx for diagnosis.
  • As far as the Operator having more of an economy hook than anyone else, well, second edition Apocalypse World got rid of the Operator and added the "spend barter per session, work jobs for barter" idea to all the playbooks.

Glazius fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Sep 11, 2022

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.
I'm enjoying the Sweater Weather.

ninjoatse.cx
Apr 9, 2005

Fun Shoe
Thanks for bumping the thread! I've been super enjoying Ken and Robin talk about stuff (https://www.kenandrobintalkaboutstuff.com/) . From amateur alternate history stuff to cinema reviews and a TON of good GM advise (especially about keeping the plot moving), it's really captivating. There's also a massive backlog.

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 13 hours!
I was an avid listener t, but I had to give it up after Ken's extremely right wing politics drove me nuts.

He's excruciatingly polite about it, but it creeps in when he says things like "Did you know that after school programs for Chicago schoolchildren are fronts for crack dealers?," defends Augusto Pinochet, and expresses the desire to travel back in time to assassinate Lenin.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Rick posted:

I'm enjoying the Sweater Weather.

I'm glad! I'm enjoying digging for combat-free games.

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ninjoatse.cx
Apr 9, 2005

Fun Shoe

Halloween Jack posted:

I was an avid listener t, but I had to give it up after Ken's extremely right wing politics drove me nuts.

He's excruciatingly polite about it, but it creeps in when he says things like "Did you know that after school programs for Chicago schoolchildren are fronts for crack dealers?," defends Augusto Pinochet, and expresses the desire to travel back in time to assassinate Lenin.

The last of those is not a bad thing, by any stretch. Especially not for someone who's entire job is coming up with time travel stories and alternative history.

Never heard the other two. I'm walking backwards in release order, so I'll probably get to it eventually.

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