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Maximo Roboto
Feb 4, 2012



he got the country stuck in endless wars of imperialism and discredited trust in government forever

Imagine if the Great Society plans had all succeeded in their aims

I remember an essay called ďRace and the American PresidencyĒ by Prof. Kenneth OíReilly that evaluated every single U.S. presidentís treatment of African Americans- the only two he concluded who went out of their way to help black people at a personal cost were Lincoln and LBJ

What contrast, wow

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Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



he had a massive hog, op

Venomous
Nov 7, 2011






I blame JFK

sat on my keys!
Oct 1, 2014


the robert caro books about lbj have what's possibly the closest to the platonic ideal of a new deal liberal perspective it's possible to have but they're still interesting and good

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012




Declan MacManus posted:

he had a massive hog, op

too much blood in the brain impairs empathy

Maximo Roboto
Feb 4, 2012



sat on my keys! posted:

the robert caro books about lbj have what's possibly the closest to the platonic ideal of a new deal liberal perspective it's possible to have but they're still interesting and good

LBJ learned from FDR that to pass social democracy in America you need three names and a lot of hatred for Asian people

sat on my keys!
Oct 1, 2014


Maximo Roboto posted:

LBJ learned from FDR that to pass social democracy in America you need three names and a lot of hatred for Asian people

lol he literally goes off how he needs a three initial name like FDR to achieve the great ambition of his life: becoming president

The Unnamed One
Jan 13, 2012

"BOOM!"

sat on my keys! posted:

lol he literally goes off how he needs a three initial name like FDR to achieve the great ambition of his life: becoming president

Either that or a presidentís assassin, I guess

Sheng-Ji Yang
Mar 5, 2014




sat on my keys! posted:

the robert caro books about lbj have what's possibly the closest to the platonic ideal of a new deal liberal perspective it's possible to have but they're still interesting and good

they are extremely good

Maximo Roboto
Feb 4, 2012



Is there a leftist consensus on LBJ. Obviously imperialist war makes him a great satan. But what do they think of the Great Society and his attitude towards civil rights, do they denounce him as a succ reformist or as a Bismarckian who was just doing it for political machinations. Do they reconcile the two by saying the American reactionary attitude towards socialism forced him to overcompensate for his progressive domestic policy by being a rampaging Cold Warrior abroad

Maximo Roboto
Feb 4, 2012



FDR seems more understandable as a blue blooded NY patrician who was canny enough to see where the winds were blowing and was smart/idealistic enough to ape what other countries were doing at the time wrt building a government that can actually do poo poo to get out of the Depression. He interned Japanese Americans because he was about as racist as any other American at the time and thatís the sort of popular outrage reaction that would happen after Pearl Harbor. LBJís decision to get embroiled in Indochina, even going forward with the Gulf of Tonkin flimsy pretext, seems out of right field

Lord of Pie
Mar 2, 2007




Maximo Roboto posted:

Is there a leftist consensus on LBJ. Obviously imperialist war makes him a great satan. But what do they think of the Great Society and his attitude towards civil rights, do they denounce him as a succ reformist or as a Bismarckian who was just doing it for political machinations. Do they reconcile the two by saying the American reactionary attitude towards socialism forced him to overcompensate for his progressive domestic policy by being a rampaging Cold Warrior abroad

He's still in the top tier of US presidents but that says more about how truly lovely the majority of them are

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

It will always be about people.


Maximo Roboto posted:

FDR seems more understandable as a blue blooded NY patrician who was canny enough to see where the winds were blowing and was smart/idealistic enough to ape what other countries were doing at the time wrt building a government that can actually do poo poo to get out of the Depression. He interned Japanese Americans because he was about as racist as any other American at the time and thatís the sort of popular outrage reaction that would happen after Pearl Harbor. LBJís decision to get embroiled in Indochina, even going forward with the Gulf of Tonkin flimsy pretext, seems out of right field

LBJ's war on poverty did not seem to be ingeninue, but America was always an empire and it didn't stop with LBJ. To be clear, LBJ wasn't a leftist but he was more of a determined populist that got results. Also, the voting rights act/civil rights act were heavily influenced by the Cold War and the fact that the perception of the US was dismal in much of the developing world.

Maximo Roboto
Feb 4, 2012



Lord of Pie posted:

He's still in the top tier of US presidents but that says more about how truly lovely the majority of them are

Well yeah, the Civil Rights Act happening under his watch would probably guarantee his top tier placement alone for starters among mainstream historians, but I'm wondering what his legacy with leftists/Marxists is

Ardennes posted:

LBJ's war on poverty did not seem to be ingeninue, but America was always an empire and it didn't stop with LBJ. To be clear, LBJ wasn't a leftist but he was more of a determined populist that got results. Also, the voting rights act/civil rights act were heavily influenced by the Cold War and the fact that the perception of the US was dismal in much of the developing world.

Makes sense. So the Marxist view would be then that he was peddling reformist scraps to bolster America for its true war on communism? I guess to me it's still very paradoxical that his populist measures would've been fairly comprehensive (making him relatively quite left compared to all other American presidents), but his commitment to the Cold War undercut all of it.

also, how was JFK's New Frontier compared to the Great Society or the New Deal?

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

It will always be about people.


Maximo Roboto posted:

Makes sense. So the Marxist view would be then that he was peddling reformist scraps to bolster America for its true war on communism? I guess to me it's still very paradoxical that his populist measures would've been fairly comprehensive (making him relatively quite left compared to all other American presidents), but his commitment to the Cold War undercut all of it.

also, how was JFK's New Frontier compared to the Great Society or the New Deal?

In the end, he was a liberal and an imperialist (from a "Marxist perspective"), don't get me wrong but within the realm of liberals and imperialists, there are variations. He was more of the populist side of that calculation.

Just because he was relatively left-wing for the US doesn't really matter into the broader question of political economy because the US really only works one way and that is the expansion of market space.

Sheng-Ji Yang
Mar 5, 2014




https://twitter.com/triviapotus/sta...5751270400?s=19



he might have been a monstorous war criminal but he was definitely the last dem with any balls

Sheng-Ji Yang has issued a correction as of 07:02 on Oct 18, 2020

Nonsense
Jan 26, 2007



LBJ taught school in Cotulla TX and I think his ranch was around there. Was a genuine tumbleweed town until Obama fracked it up now it's just shaky

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.



Maximo Roboto posted:

Is there a leftist consensus on LBJ. Obviously imperialist war makes him a great satan. But what do they think of the Great Society and his attitude towards civil rights, do they denounce him as a succ reformist or as a Bismarckian who was just doing it for political machinations. Do they reconcile the two by saying the American reactionary attitude towards socialism forced him to overcompensate for his progressive domestic policy by being a rampaging Cold Warrior abroad

He's tough to categorize. On the one hand he was the only president since FDR who legitimately wanted to restructure US society to help Americans rather than solely to enrich the wealthy, and he used his immense political skill and connections to bully people into supporting civil rights. On the other hand he was also caught in the same trap all Cold War presidents were caught in, which is that he had to appear tough on communism and was terrified that if he failed with containment anywhere it would mean his domestic agenda would get defeated because it would make him look weak. He didn't just fight the Vietnam War, he also invaded the Dominican Republic and supported fascist dictators across Latin America and Africa because he had to look tough on communism. It's the age-old dilemma of US presidents where even if they were good on domestic policy, and LBJ was probably one of the best on domestic policy, how do you balance that against a foreign policy that harmed far more people than the good domestic policies helped?

In conclusion, LBJ was a land of contrasts. If your utilitarian calculation starts and ends at the borders of the United States he might have been one of the best presidents ever, but if your utilitarian calculation includes the sum total of human suffering worldwide he may have been one of the worst.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010



Fun Shoe

Communist Vietnam did more to fight the worst excesses of communism than any Western state lol

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.



shovelbum posted:

Communist Vietnam did more to fight the worst excesses of communism than any Western state lol

fun fact, the Khmer Rouge remained the UN-recognized legitimate government of Cambodia until the 1990s because the US and China propped up Pol Pot to spite the Vietnamese

joepinetree
Apr 5, 2012


When the cables and recordings related to the coup in Brazil in 1964 came out, it was very clear that none of the higher ups in the LBJ administration had any idea of what was going on in Brazil, but that they were being hit hard on containing communism by the republicans so they were just going all out in supporting anything that looked like fighting communism.

There aren't innocent presidents on the imperialism front, but LBJ manages to be worse than average. Besides Vietnam and Latin America, the Indonesian genocide is probably the most grotesque example of that. CIA straight up just giving lists of names for death squads to kill.

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Jozy loves scoring like a fat kid loves eating cake.



joepinetree posted:

When the cables and recordings related to the coup in Brazil in 1964 came out, it was very clear that none of the higher ups in the LBJ administration had any idea of what was going on in Brazil, but that they were being hit hard on containing communism by the republicans so they were just going all out in supporting anything that looked like fighting communism.

There aren't innocent presidents on the imperialism front, but LBJ manages to be worse than average. Besides Vietnam and Latin America, the Indonesian genocide is probably the most grotesque example of that. CIA straight up just giving lists of names for death squads to kill.

Indonesia is a particularly grotesque example, let's also not forget the Congo where Johnson hired a bunch of white South African mercenaries to come rape and murder their way through the country until all the anti-American rebels were dead.

Dreylad
Jun 19, 2001


quote:

In April, 1965, the low-key [Prime Minister of Canada] Lester Pearson challenged, albeit mildly, LBJ's brand-new bombing campaign against North Vietnam by proposing a limited "suspension," which, "at the right time might facilitate the development of diplomatic resources which cannot easily be applied to the problem under existing circumstances."

The president's subsequent meeting with Mr. Pearson went badly from the start, with Mr. Johnson refusing to meet the prime minister's helicopter. Provoked, it seems, by Mr. Johnson's coldness at lunch, Mr. Pearson provoked in turn by inquiring what the big Texan thought of his speech.

As Lawrence Martin describes the scene in his book, The Presidents and the Prime Ministers, "[Mr. Johnson]clutched the prime minister by the upper arm, and led him on to the terrace where there was room for wrath." While Canadian ambassador Charles Ritchie and presidential aide Jack Valenti looked on through a window, "the president of the United States grabbed [Mr. Pearson]by the shirt collar, twisted it and lifted the shaken prime minister by the neck . . . 'You pissed on my rug.' "

Maximo Roboto
Feb 4, 2012



vyelkin posted:

If your utilitarian calculation starts and ends at the borders of the United States he might have been one of the best presidents ever, but if your utilitarian calculation includes the sum total of human suffering worldwide he may have been one of the worst.

His foreign policy was so aggro that it counterproductively caused his domestic policy to backfire, failing to fulfill the Great Society and disrupting social cohesion for all time. It's crazy.

joepinetree posted:

There aren't innocent presidents on the imperialism front, but LBJ manages to be worse than average.

JFK being the first American president to gently caress over Iraq, paving the way to Saddam's rise is one helluva trip

i say swears online
Mar 4, 2005

medio de fonte leporum surgo amariter




look jfk was the first person to gently caress a lot of things

A Russian troll farm
Jul 11, 2012




There's only one good american president

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010



LBJ hosed more things on accident than Kennedy hosed on purpose.

Aglet56
Sep 1, 2011


Sheng-Ji Yang posted:

he might have been a monstorous war criminal but he was definitely the last dem with any balls

you definitely get a little proto-trump with LBJ. supposedly during the 68 DNC shitshow, as cops were beating on protestors outside, he considered helicoptering onto the roof of the convention and announcing that he was re-entering the primary

Maximo Roboto
Feb 4, 2012



Was JFK's New Frontier good or was it succ

A Russian troll farm posted:

There's only one good american president

It's "funny" how the joke answers (William Henry Harrison, Zachary Taylor, David Rice Atchison) all don't work for this one because of their odious treatment of either black people and/or Native American people outside of their short terms

Maximo Roboto has issued a correction as of 23:52 on Oct 18, 2020

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010



It was succ compared to the New Deal or the Great Society but still far more imaginative than anything libs would propose today.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



can we talk about the korean war and associated korean war crimes that america committed as a dry run for the failure/active malicious intent of america in vietnam and cambodia

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



harry s truman can truly s my hairy balls man

Maximo Roboto
Feb 4, 2012



idk much about the Fair Deal compared to the New Deal but sure go for it

Mantis42 posted:

It was succ compared to the New Deal or the Great Society but still far more imaginative than anything libs would propose today.

Pairing social programs with the space race was a nice touch

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



short summary from history.com

quote:

On January 5, 1949, President Harry S. Truman announces, in his State of the Union address, that every American has a right to expect from our government a fair deal.

In a reference to Franklin Rooseveltís New Deal policies, Truman announced his plans for domestic policy reforms including national health insurance, public housing, civil rights legislation and federal aid to education. He advocated an increase in the minimum wage, federal assistance to farmers and an extension of Social Security, as well as urging the immediate implementation of anti-discrimination policies in employment. Truman argued for an ambitious liberal agenda based on policies first articulated by his predecessor, Franklin D. Roosevelt. However, the nationís politics had shifted rightward in the years following World War II and inflation, economic conversion from wartime to peacetime industries and growing anti-communist sentiment provided major obstacles to Trumanís plan. To a growing contingency of conservatives and Southern Democrats in Congress, the Fair Deal smacked of socialism.

After his landslide re-election in 1948, Truman managed to convince Congress to pass several of his liberal reforms. It almost doubled the minimum wageófrom 40 cents to 75 cents an houróand established the Housing Act, which provided 800,000 new houses for the poor. Though Congress approved Trumanís extension of Social Security benefits, it rejected the idea of national health care, avoided passing any new civil rights legislation and failed to aggressively tackle concerns over fair labor practices.

Beginning in 1950, foreign affairs, particularly the Korean War and the Cold War, increasingly distracted Truman from domestic issues.

basically the economy recovered and unlike the rest of the world we learned absolutely nothing from the great depression and decided to go full on patriotism/world's policeman after passing a couple of okay reforms, and resistance from racists and anti-communist racists along with truman being a hollow shell of the leader that fdr was meant that the fair deal was doomed to fail despite noble goals

then we did this

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010



The Fair Deal was p good and the first serious attempt to implement Universal Healthcare. Unfortunately Congress was in GOP hands, so Truman couldn't do much. At least he vetoed Taft Hartley.

joepinetree
Apr 5, 2012


Declan MacManus posted:

can we talk about the korean war and associated korean war crimes that america committed as a dry run for the failure/active malicious intent of america in vietnam and cambodia

One of the most heart wrenching documentaries I've ever watched was about the order the US gave to kill every refugee that tried to come through their lines. Just Einsatzgruppen level of brutality. Parents drowning their children when they wouldn't stop crying because otherwise American troops would find them and kill them.

Maximo Roboto
Feb 4, 2012



Mantis42 posted:

The Fair Deal was p good and the first serious attempt to implement Universal Healthcare. Unfortunately Congress was in GOP hands, so Truman couldn't do much. At least he vetoed Taft Hartley.

I wonder if there had been any possible way to prevent the Red Scare. American culture was too squeamish towards socialism and it seemed like liberals/leftists were never able to formulate the messaging of "this is social democracy reformism that saps socialist support, read a history book about Bismarck jeez" or even remind Republicans of their own Roosevelt and their Progressive Era days

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010



Truman was raised by insane neoconfederate racists and his wife Bess was a virulent antisemite. He never truly overcame his own bigotry but he at least grew enough to make civil rights a Democratic Party plank and made the Dixiecrats revolt. Like LBJ he embodied the duality of the Democratic Party of his era, for both good and ill.

joepinetree
Apr 5, 2012


There is quite a substantial body of academic research that a huge chunk of social democratic welfare state type of programs were only implemented in Europe and the US out of a fear of communist revolution. That, for example, local communist support was a better predictor of social democratic reform than whether social democrats or conservatives were in power. Much can be discussed about living conditions within the soviet union, but the mere existence of the soviet union led to much of the welfare state. Which is to say that I think it is unlikely that you can separate red scare and social democracy, though not necessarily in the way most people think.

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Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



joepinetree posted:

One of the most heart wrenching documentaries I've ever watched was about the order the US gave to kill every refugee that tried to come through their lines. Just Einsatzgruppen level of brutality. Parents drowning their children when they wouldn't stop crying because otherwise American troops would find them and kill them.

it's loving horrible, i remember reading one general estimated that they killed 20% of the population through bombing campaigns alone

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