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Doctor Nutt
Apr 12, 2007

"Even now, Elisabeth is putting her miraculous new body through its paces." -Clovis Bray




Hi there, if feedback is still being gathered, I think having specific game OPs updated with significant thread milestones would be really nice. Especially with games that may have beta releases/early access/etc, I often find myself wanting to check out how goons received a particular game at the time of release and check out initial reactions. Would be very good for people checking up on games later to be able to click a link that says "click here to jump to release date discussion" or "click here to see discussion on date game went 1.0" or something.

Maybe this is totally niche but given how long threads can go and how clunky thread navigation can be, it'd be a very nice thing for OPs of particularly large game threads to consider.

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Violen
Jul 25, 2009

ohoho~


every time someone links some hellthread from resetera here for whatever reason my overarching thought is usually 'hey threadmarks are a cool idea' so i agree

Donnerberg
Dec 15, 2008



Hell Gem

We talked about something like that a couple pages back too. I think we all agree it would be a great feature, but none of us can be assed to make an effortpost about it.

zenintrude
Apr 7, 2008

Where we're going,
we won't need eyes to see.


Can we please implement this as the official rating system for Games and probate anyone who refuses to use it? Itíll just make my life a whole hell of a lot easier... thanks.

Walla
Sep 17, 2017




zenintrude posted:

Can we please implement this as the official rating system for Games and probate anyone who refuses to use it? It’ll just make my life a whole hell of a lot easier... thanks.



I support this.

Jupiter Jazz
Jan 13, 2007

Punch, punch, punch!



My opinion: When I first joined, Games was known for higher video game discussion. Now it's riled with cliques and low effort poo poo posts that would have gotten you probated in 2007. I posted a long opinion in the Dragon Quest thread (linked here) that was passionate and my personal opinion. The responses? "LOL." Effort posting and discussion, two former main stays of SA, is now considered a bonus, not the norm.

The result is a forum made of cliques where people are unable to discuss in genuine merit, who can only expound upon gotcha points and one liners.

Jupiter Jazz fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Feb 9, 2021

Stux
Nov 17, 2006

[posting intensifies]


Jupiter Jazz posted:

My opinion: When I first joined, Games was known for higher video game discussion. Now it's riled with cliques and low effort poo poo posts that would have gotten you probated in 2007. I posted a long opinion in the Dragon Quest thread (linked here) that was passionate and my personal opinion. The responses? "LOL." Effort posting and discussion, two former main stays of SA, is now considered a bonus, not the norm.

The result is a forum made of cliques where people are unable to discuss in genuine merit, who can only expound upon gotcha points and one liners.

probably because that post is insanely bad and very funny op. also posting this after getting owned is even funnier still. probably need to prepare for a new wave of lols, perhaps even a lmao or two

Jupiter Jazz
Jan 13, 2007

Punch, punch, punch!



Stux posted:

probably because that post is insanely bad and very funny op. also posting this after getting owned is even funnier still. probably need to prepare for a new wave of lols, perhaps even a lmao or two

Why is it bad? Because you disagree?

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010


College Slice

I skimmed the thread and I saw a long discussion of people mostly engaging with you not sure what more you want

To your post here I have only to say:

lol

Jupiter Jazz
Jan 13, 2007

Punch, punch, punch!



cheetah7071 posted:

I skimmed the thread and I saw a long discussion of people mostly engaging with you not sure what more you want

To your post here I have only to say:

lol

I will say some do engage so it's definitely not blanket. So you've got a point. But then there's many who are offended and just generally attack for no reason. So I guess it's more accurate to say that it's a mixed bag.

Jupiter Jazz fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Feb 9, 2021

Stux
Nov 17, 2006

[posting intensifies]


Jupiter Jazz posted:

Why is it bad? Because you disagree?

dont care about dq so i could not possibly agree or disagree on what the post says, however its extremely funny and reading further multiple people did engage at length with your argument and you still felt so aggrieved you needed to complain that its a problem with the games forum that no one agreed with you or whatever. however please continue to post about it

Jupiter Jazz
Jan 13, 2007

Punch, punch, punch!



Stux posted:

dont care about dq so i could not possibly agree or disagree on what the post says, however its extremely funny and reading further multiple people did engage at length with your argument and you still felt so aggrieved you needed to complain that its a problem with the games forum that no one agreed with you or whatever. however please continue to post about it

Some did agree with me. There's even users who are outright confused at the hostile tone towards me.

Stux
Nov 17, 2006

[posting intensifies]


the big clique hivemind of [checking thread] people both agreeing and disagreeing at varying levels of engagement from "lol" to their own effort posts. truly mystifying what you are even complaining about at this point honestly.

Muscle Tracer
Feb 23, 2007

Medals only weigh
one down.


Jupiter Jazz posted:

My opinion: When I first joined, Games was known for higher video game discussion. Now it's riled with cliques and low effort poo poo posts that would have gotten you probated in 2007. I posted a long opinion in the Dragon Quest thread (linked here) that was passionate and my personal opinion. The responses? "LOL." Effort posting and discussion, two former main stays of SA, is now considered a bonus, not the norm.

The result is a forum made of cliques where people are unable to discuss in genuine merit, who can only expound upon gotcha points and one liners.

I think you got some of the reactions you got because 1. you start off extremely combative, telling everyone you expect them to hate your post, and 2. your post could just as easily have been "I miss the days when there was less dialogue and more atmospheric storytelling." Making a long post may take a lot of effort, but not all ideas need that much effort to express them, and people will resent you for wasting their time.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


As the subforum's resident doom eternal unenjoyer I don't really mind if people find me posting extensive screeds about why I don't like game a bit laughable, cos it kind of is. Not going to stop me doing it, however.

Phigs
Jan 23, 2019


A long post arguing for brevity is inherently funny.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


I think some of the response to this has got to be a bit intentionally dismissive or obtuse on some level. Reading through its pretty clear there's some stuff that's pretty low effort one word replies and Jupiter Jazz is suggesting that sort've low effort posting shouldn't be tolerated, not that that was the only response they received.

Stux
Nov 17, 2006

[posting intensifies]


low effort posting is tolerated. you can even empty quote! this is someone not getting the response they wanted to a single subject in one thread and then posting about it in the "state of games" thread like its some endemic issue with the entire forum. theres a very handy stickied post dedicated to more long form game stuff where low effort posts arent allowed and people cant laugh at you for saying something insanely stupid if thats the issue.

Violen
Jul 25, 2009

ohoho~


you can lol at my effortposts if you want everyone ill shoulder this burden for the greater good

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Stux posted:

low effort posting is tolerated. you can even empty quote! this is someone not getting the response they wanted to a single subject in one thread and then posting about it in the "state of games" thread like its some endemic issue with the entire forum. theres a very handy stickied post dedicated to more long form game stuff where low effort posts arent allowed and people cant laugh at you for saying something insanely stupid if thats the issue.

Low effort posting is tolerated, yes, hence someone arguing they think it shouldn't and that would be a better experience. Yes this is someone not getting the response they wanted, the response they wanted was not to get hit was "lmfao" and "what" instead of something substantive, that's literally the point being made!

I don't exactly agree with Jazz here about wanting more restrictive rules, originally I was going to originally chime in on the chorus of constructive criticism of their posting style and I think there's a degree of myopic self victimization about posting unpopular opinions and all that going on in their own linked post, but I find the weird bad faith reading in order to dismiss their entire perspective as Literally Irrelevant To The Literal Feedback Thread as a bit of absurd reach. I think that "Low effort posting used to not be tolerated here, back in my day, and it was better" is at the least a legitimate stance to share in the Feedback Thread about the State of the Games Forum. There's at least a conversation to be had based off that rather than just scoring more dunks, about whether more people feel the same or whether they actually like the more anarchic posting style and the culture that is cultivated by it.

Also I don't think the Effort Posting thread you're specifically referring to is conducive to their needs in this moment, if its the one I think it is, because they're clearly looking to effort post about being critical of some games in a franchise while praising others and don't want to be dismissed for it, but perhaps this is worth pointing towards more threads of that nature but different variations as a healthy ongoing thing for the forum and a solid middle ground? Trying to be constructive here.

Rimusutera fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Feb 10, 2021

Relax Or DIE
May 8, 2006


the idea the past Games was a bastion of effort posts that has been lost in recent years is hilarious imo.

what defines a low effort post? is a reply of "lol" low effort if it's actually the funniest reply? what if a post is voluminous but extremely stupid?

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


My main concern with trying to enforce effort levels is that it may be counterproductive to the way that games threads are basically general chat threads for the games, and so necessarily do not normally consist of effort posts and not everyone in them wants to do effort posting.

So I guess the most you could ask is probably "don't just go "what" at effort posts" but eh, that doesn't enormously bother me when it happens to me so I can't even feel very enthusiastic about that to be honest.

Stux
Nov 17, 2006

[posting intensifies]


there were multiple pages with multiple people engaging earnestly, with one person who everyone else told off getting aggro, and a couple of people who said lol or what. this is all pretty dismissive to the other people who engaged in a discussion with them, and the norm was certainly people engaging in good faith and having an actual discussion about the points they were making. also this all happened two full months ago while they were attempting a critique of a game they hadnt even finished half of, and it ended with them blowing up at another poster while being unbelievably condescending because they said "youre wrong"

this is a grudge post on a two month delay. i dont care about it. it has nothing to do with the forum culture or whatever.

Stux
Nov 17, 2006

[posting intensifies]


also who are the cliques? the clique of "people who post in the dq thread"?

...of SCIENCE!
Apr 26, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 58 minutes!


Proposal: Games and Imp Zone existing in harmony, one for serious games discussion and the other for shitposting

Reality: Two gaming forums full of shitposting but you're allowed to post the r-word in one of them

Donnerberg
Dec 15, 2008



Hell Gem

I'll have you know, when I make a post, it starts out ten times times as long, and it takes a lot of effort to make it short, concise, and having all the dangling clauses removed.

I'm not even joking. The first draft of this bad post was a war crime. Keeping it short is high effort.

VideoGames
Aug 18, 2003



Jupiter Jazz posted:

My opinion: When I first joined, Games was known for higher video game discussion. Now it's riled with cliques and low effort poo poo posts that would have gotten you probated in 2007. I posted a long opinion in the Dragon Quest thread (linked here) that was passionate and my personal opinion. The responses? "LOL." Effort posting and discussion, two former main stays of SA, is now considered a bonus, not the norm.

The result is a forum made of cliques where people are unable to discuss in genuine merit, who can only expound upon gotcha points and one liners.

Hello Jupiter Jazz.

I just took some time to read your post in that thread and the subsequent posts. You definitely started out on the back foot with your opener and perhaps that would lead people not to engage as fully as you would like. You do not have to be self negative in making an effort post.

One person saying what because they do not understand and then clarifying that later is fine engagement. Many posters afterward also gave you the time of day and responded and some agreed and some disagreed.

There was a ton of engagement and attempts to understand, and even recommendations for other games. Over 80% of the engagement was multiple paragraphs as well. In terms of interaction (and people interacted with you and you discussion for pages), I feel you got a fair one.

SomethingAwful has always had posts that can be mocking and jokey about what people write. It is a staple of our culture that we try to be a comedy forum first and everything else later. Serious posts are great and sometimes people might try to land a joke but that is part of posting here.

The forum as it is now has changed since 2007 and I do not think it a bad thing. Everyone here is older by 14 years and everything being a bit more casual leads to more ribbing and a more conversational tone than the strictness of the past.

If every single reply to that post had been lol, shut up, lmao and so forth then that would be a very different matter.

We and myself especially, encourage people to post constantly about things they like. The most recent game of the year thread was full of people gushing about the games they love for the purpose of ranking them the whole year. We have a gush about Games just for the heck of it thread.

There are thousands of active threads in Games and we want people to post to their hearts content. I am not sure of any cliques discouraging that and did not see one in the thread you linked (even if a lot of the discussion I did not fully grasp due to not being a DQ player myself).

If there are cliques who are preventing people from posting about stuff they love then let us know , either via reporting or PMs or here or email.

(If there are cliques discouraging constant negative posting, well then that feels a little more fair to me. I think disliking everything has been a problem online and is something that Games as a forum gets accused of and I would like the balance between loving and disliking to be swung a little more to liking but that is personal preference and not something I am going to enforce with an iron fist because often mockery posts can be funny before they get run into the ground.)

All in all, I would like to thank you for bringing it up because I do like to make sure we are doing things correctly and in this case I do wish you felt better about what happened.

Jupiter Jazz
Jan 13, 2007

Punch, punch, punch!



Rimusutera posted:

Low effort posting is tolerated, yes, hence someone arguing they think it shouldn't and that would be a better experience. Yes this is someone not getting the response they wanted, the response they wanted was not to get hit was "lmfao" and "what" instead of something substantive, that's literally the point being made!

I don't exactly agree with Jazz here about wanting more restrictive rules, originally I was going to originally chime in on the chorus of constructive criticism of their posting style and I think there's a degree of myopic self victimization about posting unpopular opinions and all that going on in their own linked post, but I find the weird bad faith reading in order to dismiss their entire perspective as Literally Irrelevant To The Literal Feedback Thread as a bit of absurd reach. I think that "Low effort posting used to not be tolerated here, back in my day, and it was better" is at the least a legitimate stance to share in the Feedback Thread about the State of the Games Forum. There's at least a conversation to be had based off that rather than just scoring more dunks, about whether more people feel the same or whether they actually like the more anarchic posting style and the culture that is cultivated by it.

Also I don't think the Effort Posting thread you're specifically referring to is conducive to their needs in this moment, if its the one I think it is, because they're clearly looking to effort post about being critical of some games in a franchise while praising others and don't want to be dismissed for it, but perhaps this is worth pointing towards more threads of that nature but different variations as a healthy ongoing thing for the forum and a solid middle ground? Trying to be constructive here.

Do you have more constructive criticism on my posting style? I'd really like to change but don't know how.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


VideoGames posted:

I think disliking everything has been a problem online and is something that Games as a forum gets accused of and I would like the balance between loving and disliking to be swung a little more to liking but that is personal preference and not something I am going to enforce with an iron fist because often mockery posts can be funny before they get run into the ground.)

Wait, as in people think Games doesn't like any games? That is way opposite from my experience, if anything I would say that the threads overwhelmingly select for people who do like the games a whole lot?

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012




OwlFancier posted:

Wait, as in people think Games doesn't like any games? That is way opposite from my experience, if anything I would say that the threads overwhelmingly select for people who do like the games a whole lot?

It might stem from an outdated perception of the forum, but outside of Games there's definitely an attitude that the Games forum is where people go to be negative about games. There's a recent QCS thread about the Imp Zone that took the general tone of "Imp Zone is for people who like games, Games is for people who want to complain about them." That's not true, of course, but the perception is still out there.

ShallNoiseUpon
Sep 10, 2010


Harrow posted:

It might stem from an outdated perception of the forum, but outside of Games there's definitely an attitude that the Games forum is where people go to be negative about games. There's a recent QCS thread about the Imp Zone that took the general tone of "Imp Zone is for people who like games, Games is for people who want to complain about them." That's not true, of course, but the perception is still out there.


I think there's also a certain bit of truth to it, especially at release of highly anticipated games like The Last of Us 2 and Cyberpunk 2077 in the last year. People, even here, tend to hype up games to heights that they will never actually achieve and frequently that comes to a head on release of these mega popular games. That's really the only time I see any notable amounts of negativity-focused posting, for the most part and I'm not sure if that's even necessarily something we want to focus on a tamp down on. I would like to hear opinions on this -- people are allowed to be disappointed by games and they should be able to post about it, but there can be a point where it becomes tedious and unpleasant to deal with constant negative that may be abound (as a general thought, not in terms of any specific game or thread). I'm not sure what the right balance is there, but it's something we can keep in mind going forward.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012




ShallNoiseUpon posted:

I think there's also a certain bit of truth to it, especially at release of highly anticipated games like The Last of Us 2 and Cyberpunk 2077 in the last year. People, even here, tend to hype up games to heights that they will never actually achieve and frequently that comes to a head on release of these mega popular games. That's really the only time I see any notable amounts of negativity-focused posting, for the most part and I'm not sure if that's even necessarily something we want to focus on a tamp down on.

Yeah, that's true. How much negativity you encounter (and how severe that negativity is) probably depends on what kind of games you're coming here to post about. The bigger and more hyped the game, the more risk of hype backlash and a big negativity spiral. Threads for more niche games/genres tend to be populated by people who already like that thing. And while those kinds of threads, or threads for long-established games like WoW, can and do enter into negativity spirals, it's a different flavor than the "everyone rush in to make fun of the game everybody hates" events that happen with things like Cyberpunk 2077.

ShallNoiseUpon posted:

I would like to hear opinions on this -- people are allowed to be disappointed by games and they should be able to post about it, but there can be a point where it becomes tedious and unpleasant to deal with constant negative that may be abound (as a general thought, not in terms of any specific game or thread). I'm not sure what the right balance is there, but it's something we can keep in mind going forward.

I'm interested in opinions as well. My gut feeling is that there's no hard line, but that it becomes a problem when there are people who want to talk about a game and it's getting drowned out by a ton of arguing and negativity. There are times when that kind of thing just needs to be able to rage on, and times when it's just really funny to laugh at a bad game.

I'm not sure where to draw a line for "okay, time for the negativity to chill out," though. I don't want to stifle negative opinions just because they're negative, but at the same time, I don't want to make it impossible for someone who is enjoying (or at least trying to enjoy) a game to discuss it with others because it's currently the cool game to hate and argue about.

Reveilled
Apr 19, 2007

Take up your rifles


Because threads in Games are not generally about current events, I don't actually think it's much of a problem in the vast majority of threads. I've certainly seen the threads I follow manage to contain multiple simultaneous conversations, where people can be talking about what they don't like about the game while other people (sometimes the same people) discuss game mechanics with people who are still playing or enjoying the game.

Sometimes a game is a hype trainwreck, but a significant number of posters still want to actually play and talk about the game constructively. In those situations we've had a solution which has worked well in the past, one thread for the trainwreck, one thread for the people who just wanna play the drat game. There's always going to be shitheads who come charging into the gameplay thread to make drama, but those people can be directed to the trainwreck thread in the first instance, and probed if they persist. I think most posters in those sorts of threads tend to be supportive of splits anyway.

In short, my opinion is it's basically fine as is, I trust the mods to handle problems case by case, and I think if a mod wants guidance on whether to split or otherwise redirect the discussion, they can probably get the best advice from the posters in the thread in question.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Harrow posted:

It might stem from an outdated perception of the forum, but outside of Games there's definitely an attitude that the Games forum is where people go to be negative about games. There's a recent QCS thread about the Imp Zone that took the general tone of "Imp Zone is for people who like games, Games is for people who want to complain about them." That's not true, of course, but the perception is still out there.

Very strange. I guess i don't really go for the big fancy releases but I can't think of any threads I've read here where people are negative about games except for ones that are, like, pretty universally considered flops or hilaribad like star citizen. Or yeah people clearly get way too hyped about something and it turns out to be crap or mediocre but everywhere does that and I dunno, it seems fairly predictable to me as an outside observer of the big hype releases. If the hype machine didn't work on people they wouldn't do it.

But I mean gently caress there's a thread full of people who like no man's sky of all things so I don't think the forum suffers from an overabundance of negativity.

Phigs
Jan 23, 2019


I feel like negativity and positivity come in waves. On release you'll usually get positivity if people bother making a thread on it. If it's a big profile disaster then you'll get negativity instead. While that is going on the opposing side won't bother trying to fight to tide but as the positive/negative hype finishes the people who disagree will come out and share their opinions for a bit. After that the threads tend to be positive regardless unless it's an especially fun game to hate because few people wanna post in a thread of a game they don't like for very long.

Mode 7
Jul 28, 2007

zigged when I should have zagreus'd



Harrow posted:

It might stem from an outdated perception of the forum, but outside of Games there's definitely an attitude that the Games forum is where people go to be negative about games. There's a recent QCS thread about the Imp Zone that took the general tone of "Imp Zone is for people who like games, Games is for people who want to complain about them." That's not true, of course, but the perception is still out there.

I'd argue that back when Imp Zone first got created that assumption was a lot more true than it is today, but the mod team (and VideoGames in particular) has done a really, really good job at turning that around over the last few years. People who don't post in Games don't get that updated perspective though hence the default assumption that Games is still like it was years ago.

Kheldarn
Feb 17, 2011




I never bother with Imp Zone because I could never get a straight answer as to WTF it was, so I just figured it was some clique hangout, and ignored it.

Is it essentially GBS, but for video games? VGBS?

Mode 7
Jul 28, 2007

zigged when I should have zagreus'd



I suspect they'd be insulted being compared to GBS. I don't post in Imp Zone because I'm not funny, but it's a FYADlite/relaxed rules funny forum for posting about games you like and most of the people who post there seem to be friends so that's cool.

The controllers thread that has an ad banner up at the moment is probably a good taste of Imp Zone humour and a very funny thread filled with some amazingly bad controllers.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010


College Slice

it's games but when you like a post you emptyquote it or say lol instead of just appreciating it in silence

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Harrow
Jun 30, 2012




cheetah7071 posted:

it's games but when you like a post you emptyquote it or say lol instead of just appreciating it in silence

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