Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


Yardbomb posted:

All you need to do to sum up his ideology is rip a big fart really.

Or just make him into Red Skull and don't change a word he says.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Droyer
Oct 9, 2012



stillvisions posted:

I think that's the eternal problem with mysteries - the deeper the mystery hole the writers put the show in, the harder it is to climb out.

JJ Abrams just took the Ponzi scheme ethos to paying off mysteries - answer each mystery with two more and you never have to solve anything until your audience calls bullshit and it all collapses.

If you write a mystery without knowing the solution first you are a clown IMO.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Nuebot posted:

Well it turns out every thing was caused by a bug that farts out turns into titan gas and it attached its self to a little slave girl who was going to be executed by her master after being accused of letting some pigs die or some poo poo. This is important because the when she turned into a titan, her master was like "good job girl, you will bear my children" and so he raped her and then made her kids eat her corpse when she died. But you see, it's okay because she loved him all along. And that's why when they cut off Eren's head after he killed 80% of humanity a giant bug pops out and farts turns into titan gas on everyone. But it just kind of vanishes between pages and everyone stops being a titan after Armin thanks him for committing mass murder and Miasa makes out with his severed head for a bit because he was really worried that she'd find another dude and be happy. Man went full incel and became a bird. Then everyone just kind of signed up to become an authoritarian military state to deal with the remaining 20% of humanity that wasn't them I guess.

It's so bad a lot of online aot communities are literally just redrawing their own "better endings".

I'm half-wondering if the anime team decided to wait and see how the manga ending played out so they'd have a chance to fix it/write their own if need be.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Droyer posted:

If you write a mystery without knowing the solution first you are a clown IMO.
So long as you don't count Twin Peaks as a mystery.

MechanicalTomPetty
Oct 30, 2011

Runnin' down a dream
That never would come to me


Wait I'm confused, are people talking about the ending of AoT the manga or AoT the anime? I thought the manga wrapped up years ago?

Motto
Aug 3, 2013



nah, the manga only wrapped up as of right now.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


ButterSkeleton posted:

I think the series deserves more credit and nuanced discussion. I think it utilizes a lot of mature themes for a largely shonen series and tries some pretty interesting things. To me, it's not fair to reduce it to a "lolz rape and fascism" comparison without giving it some proper context, even if the ending falls flat.

I agree, personally... but I think that ending is gonna put off that nuanced discussion for another decade.

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another rainy day commute





Droyer posted:

If you write a mystery without knowing the solution first you are a clown IMO.

MechanicalTomPetty
Oct 30, 2011

Runnin' down a dream
That never would come to me


Motto posted:

nah, the manga only wrapped up as of right now.

oooof. In that case maybe we'll get a reverse original FMA anime situation where that ending is better than the manga?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Ho-lee poo poo, that ending to AoT is dire.

Honestly, thereís something to be said for avoiding long-running projects like a decade-long manga. Come up with a core story and argument, compress it down, tell it, and wrap it the gently caress up! Donít let things wither away from old age and end with a shart instead of a bang! Just donít!!!

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Sydin posted:

Pretty much. The early arcs did a good job building up Ichigo as an agent of change opposed to Soul Society, and introducing him to various people (Kukaku, Urahara, Yoruichi, etc) who were idealists who broke away from SS because they didn't agree with their authoritarian stand. It really felt like it was setting up Ichigo as somebody who would change - or at a minimum operate outside of - the status quo.

...But then the Shinigami characters turned out to be popular with readers, so they got retconned into good guys and Ichigo just happily teamed up with the group that included unrepentant genocidal maniacs.

Apparently Tite Kubo ahd the worst editor of all time or something.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005

Try reading some manga!

I buy Steam inventories, add me if interested!




Clever Betty

Farg posted:

the main difference i'd put forward is that got was sucking the big one for a few seasons at that point but AoT seems to have truly poo poo the bed at the last possible moment
I'm not kidding, this final chapter was the equivalent of that video of the marathon runner way out ahead of the pack getting to the finish line, trying to do some elaborate victory dance right before crossing it, trips over himself due to the fatigue, falls flat on his face and then shits himself as everyone else catches up and passes him while he's immobile on the pavement

There's like half a dozen moments in the final chapter alone that retcon crucial and pivotal moments in the story and entire character arcs and also literally invalidates the main character's initial motivation.

This was series suicide-by-author. I really want to know what went on behind the scenes for the last year or so of the series's production.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Attack on Reader

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




stillvisions posted:

I think that's the eternal problem with mysteries - the deeper the mystery hole the writers put the show in, the harder it is to climb out.

JJ Abrams just took the Ponzi scheme ethos to paying off mysteries - answer each mystery with two more and you never have to solve anything until your audience calls bullshit and it all collapses.

And the one and only time he was called upon to finally put up or shut up and deliver some answers and end the story he started telling himself, his response was to kick over the table and throw a bunch of firecrackers in the audience's face and then make a run for the nearest exit before anyone knew he was gone.

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006



stillvisions posted:

I think that's the eternal problem with mysteries - the deeper the mystery hole the writers put the show in, the harder it is to climb out.

JJ Abrams just took the Ponzi scheme ethos to paying off mysteries - answer each mystery with two more and you never have to solve anything until your audience calls bullshit and it all collapses.

Lost was partially a victim of the writers falling in love with complex world-building, and not just the desire to keep throwing out wild toppers every season, although they loved that too. Stories have a shape where they spend some time throwing in more elements and characters and becoming more complex, but in order to end, they have to reverse that at some point and become simpler as elements are resolved. I think Lost loved poo poo like the Dharma Initiative and had fun realizing that stuff and all its implications, leading them to coming up with more wild poo poo, to the point where it was too late to start moving toward an end in a way that felt connected to what had come before.

Game of Thrones is kind of like this too--great first half as everything is unspooling, but then when it's time to move the characters into position for a satisfying end, it's not done anywhere near as well as the descent into chaos and disorder that characterizes the first half.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.




Itís like the worldís fanciest Rube Goldberg machine that kicks you in the dick at the end.

Zetsubou-san
Jan 28, 2015

Cruel Bifaunidas demanded that you [stand], I require only that you [kneel]


Jamie Faith posted:

Alltho I am still a bit of a Bleach apologist and I have naive hope that the new anime episodes fix alot of the shows major issues lol so I'm in no room to post

I have the first 50 volumes of the bleach manga

Jamie Faith posted:

It's all style and no substance but godamn that style is

Zetsubou-san fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Apr 10, 2021

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Pollyanna posted:

Honestly, thereís something to be said for avoiding long-running projects like a decade-long manga. Come up with a core story and argument, compress it down, tell it, and wrap it the gently caress up! Donít let things wither away from old age and end with a shart instead of a bang! Just donít!!!
nah, plenty of long running stuff is good. there's stuff you can only really do with longform storytelling.

Jamie Faith
Jan 13, 2020

little miss cancel crusader


Zetsubou-san posted:

I have the first 50 volumes of the bleach manga

Volumes 1 thru 48 are sitting at the top of my manga shelf lol

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


like the manga that had a machine where a man was fed his own poo poo for the rest of eternity in like chapter, 30? turning out to have a bad ending thats trying too hard without actually committing to anything, isnt really surprising. it's not something forced on it because it ran for 10 years, its something forced on it because the writing was always bad, it just had more verv and possibilities at the start.

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me





Droyer posted:

If you write a mystery without knowing the solution first you are a clown IMO.
but doctor, i am jj abrams.

Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything




Fun Shoe

Arcsquad12 posted:

I really hope Konosuba doesn't get lovely, I've just started it.

Konosuba never gets worse than the fanservice and Kazuma being a pervert (which most of the rest of the cast make fun of him for.)

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


Mokinokaro posted:

Konosuba never gets worse than the fanservice and Kazuma being a pervert (which most of the rest of the cast make fun of him for.)

So your usual stuff, then. It's dumb as poo poo but it has good slapstick timing.

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."


stillvisions posted:

I think that's the eternal problem with mysteries - the deeper the mystery hole the writers put the show in, the harder it is to climb out.

JJ Abrams just took the Ponzi scheme ethos to paying off mysteries - answer each mystery with two more and you never have to solve anything until your audience calls bullshit and it all collapses.

Abrams' involvement in Lost is really overstated and he had little to do with the show after the first season. Most of the credit and blame goes to Lindelof and Cuse.

Elephant Parade
Jan 20, 2018



Droyer posted:

If you write a mystery without knowing the solution first you are a clown IMO.
this. a writer doesn't have to worry about not being able to work out a solution that fits the clues and themes if they knew the solution before publishing began and wrote the clues and themes with it the solution in mind (and vice versa)

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Elephant Parade posted:

this. a writer doesn't have to worry about not being able to work out a solution that fits the clues and themes if they knew the solution before publishing began and wrote the clues and themes with it the solution in mind (and vice versa)

Columbo once again proving itself the chad mystery story-structure.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Mokinokaro posted:

Konosuba never gets worse than the fanservice and Kazuma being a pervert (which most of the rest of the cast make fun of him for.)

theres a lovely transphobic joke in the movie but in a series thats mostly going for sex jokes and grossout comedy its surprising they dont wind up at more jokes as bad as that, frankly

Yardbomb
Jul 11, 2011

What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?



MiddleOne posted:

Columbo once again proving itself the chad mystery story-structure.

Columbo and Magnum P.I. are the good stuff, Poirot too.

Vagabundo
Mar 20, 2007

Ya like Little Wayne?


Furuhata Ninzaburou is also worth tracking down. The titular character challenging the audience to work out how he figured out whom the killer was before the commercial break leading into the final act ends was part of the show, and they never introduced any new elements unknown to the audience either.

My favourite was a TV psychic giving himself away by misidentifying the colour of his victimís shirt as green because he saw a blue shirt through yellow-tinted glasses while he was panicking. Furuhata notices a TV camera with a colour filter, which was seen earlier in the show as well.

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009


YOU CAN STOMP US!

YOU CAN SQUASH US!

BUT YOU'LL NEVER EVER STOP US!


AoT is a good manga/anime in my experience, but in my opinion the reason why it's been so divisive is that the text and sub-text are pulling in opposite directions, and not in a way that compliments the story. Like, the story does say "war bad, fascism bad" etc, but it's being constantly undermined by the audience being shown that war is needed, our military dictatorship is good, torture works, megadeath has solved all our problems etc.

It's a bit unfair to compare AoT to the best comic in history, but in Watchmen we get the story saying "megadeath has solved all our problems", but that is being constantly undermined by subtext in the story. The therapist that goes to break up the fight at great personal cost, and the newspaper man who shields the kid he's been yelling at the whole story with his body, all undermine the text that humanity is doomed to conflict. The intermittent story about the ghost pirates is an allegorical retelling of the whole story, and concludes "you just murdered a bunch of innocent people for no reason you idiot". Not to mention that the last panel is the instant before Adrian's house of cards collapses.

This dissonance enhances the story, since we get the intellectual path that led Adrian to murder, but also a total refutation.

There's no such story craft in AoT. It's basically a rollercoaster where a bunch of cool stuff happens, with some unfortunate political implications. It's fine to enjoy but it has serious weaknesses in it's writing.

Bug Squash fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Apr 10, 2021

Vagabong
Mar 2, 2019


Pollyanna posted:

Honestly, thereís something to be said for avoiding long-running projects like a decade-long manga. Come up with a core story and argument, compress it down, tell it, and wrap it the gently caress up! Donít let things wither away from old age and end with a shart instead of a bang! Just donít!!!



More stuff like Chainsawman please.

GoT's ending was interesting because despite the rapidly declining quality post season 4 a lot of people (including myself) stayed fairly positive about the series. Season 8 dropping was a proper emperor's new clothes moment; all the issues were at their worst and there was no chance for improvement. Not only was it a terrible ending but it really highlighted the shittyness of the preceding seasons.

AoT's ending, while tripping over the long standing tension in the series themes, is a much more precipitous drop in quality. Makes you wonder if it will drop off the face of the earth as badly as GoT did.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Vagabong posted:



More stuff like Chainsawman please.

GoT's ending was interesting because despite the rapidly declining quality post season 4 a lot of people (including myself) stayed fairly positive about the series. Season 8 dropping was a proper emperor's new clothes moment; all the issues were at their worst and there was no chance for improvement. Not only was it a terrible ending but it really highlighted the shittyness of the preceding seasons.

I find the tell for an adaptation is how well the adaptation-original content integrates with the adapted work. Stuff changes for legitimate reasons when changing format (pacing, actor availability, etc, etc), but you can generally tell an adaptation's gonna be dire when only the directly-transcribed parts are good. Altered Carbon's an example of this, where in the first season the stuff taken directly from the book is a pretty solid adaptation and a few tweaks are pretty understandable (changing the AI Hotel from The Hendrix to The Raven and Poe for example, because licensing Hendrix was probably a non-starter). But every time it tried to go off and do its own thing, it was utterly dire. The book's a pretty solid mystery novel, and the series writers just did not understand why individual parts take place as they do so things got changed arbitrarily and create plot holes or general stupidity. And come season two, there was no book to hide behind and all its crappy writing was laid bare.

My favourite being Kovacs talking Bancroft into believing he actually DID commit suicide, a critical piece in the book where Kovacs realizes he's worked out what actually happened, and instead turns it into framing Bancroft's lawyer Oumou Prescott at the last second on the fly because... gently caress-you elitist scum, I'm a rebel...? . It's sloppy work unbecoming of Kovacs that could easily be disproven a dozen ways, compared to just telling Bancroft he caught a random virus while slumming for virtual sex, and shot himself to keep it from spreading to his backup in a nice neat little lie.

Macaluso
Sep 23, 2005

I HATE THAT HEDGEHOG, BROTHER!


Solitair posted:

I'm the only goon on these forums with positive memories of Lost.

I also loved Lost and I'll go a step further and say I loved the last season and the finale was good

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Srice
Sep 11, 2011



Bug Squash posted:

AoT is a good manga/anime in my experience, but in my opinion the reason why it's been so divisive is that the text and sub-text are pulling in opposite directions, and not in a way that compliments the story. Like, the story does say "war bad, fascism bad" etc, but it's being constantly undermined by the audience being shown that war is needed, our military dictatorship is good, torture works, megadeath has solved all our problems etc.

It's a bit unfair to compare AoT to the best comic in history, but in Watchmen we get the story saying "megadeath has solved all our problems", but that is being constantly undermined by subtext in the story. The therapist that goes to break up the fight at great personal cost, and the newspaper man who shields the kid he's been yelling at the whole story with his body, all undermine the text that humanity is doomed to conflict. The intermittent story about the ghost pirates is an allegorical retelling of the whole story, and concludes "you just murdered a bunch of innocent people for no reason you idiot". Not to mention that the last panel is the instant before Adrian's house of cards collapses.

This dissonance enhances the story, since we get the intellectual path that led Adrian to murder, but also a total refutation.

There's no such story craft in AoT. It's basically a rollercoaster where a bunch of cool stuff happens, with some unfortunate political implications. It's fine to enjoy but it has serious weaknesses in it's writing.

Honestly with AoT I never got the impression it was anti-war. Anti-fascism, yes. But less about "War is bad" and rather, "War is bad but sometimes necessary". Which is the stance a lot of media takes tbf.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply