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(Thread IKs: Nuns with Guns)
 
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Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
He's much better at examining concepts and themes and visualizing them than he actually is at writing them.

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Seemlar
Jun 18, 2002
If you put any of the five Metal Gear games made after MGS4 in a "one lives, one dies" competition with it I would not pick 4 even a single time

It being a big, sloppy self indulgent and over detailed ending to the story is the only thing that barely saves it because it's a terribly designed game, probably the worst Kojima has ever made - best gameplay mechanics ever seen in the series upto that point and almost all of MGS3's rough edges refined in a way that 3 and 4 really feel like the difference between Old Game and Modern Game, and it matters for nothing because all those features just go away after the first third of the game.

Hel
Oct 9, 2012

Jokatgulm is tedium.
Jokatgulm is pain.
Jokatgulm is suffering.

I saw some translators arguing on twitter recently that the reason mgs 1 and 2 deals with that better is that the translators did a lot of work cleaning up Kojimas writing and that the series doesn't have the same reputation of dealing well with those issues in japan. Whether or not it's true or not I don't know, but after 2 the translators were supposedly on a shorter leash and were told to do more literal translations. Also fits with the MGS2 translator calling Kojimas writing sub fan-fiction level.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



Hel posted:

I saw some translators arguing on twitter recently that the reason mgs 1 and 2 deals with that better is that the translators did a lot of work cleaning up Kojimas writing and that the series doesn't have the same reputation of dealing well with those issues in japan. Whether or not it's true or not I don't know, but after 2 the translators were supposedly on a shorter leash and were told to do more literal translations. Also fits with the MGS2 translator calling Kojimas writing sub fan-fiction level.

That lady always struck me as overly bitter. I've never heard such harsh words from anybody about Kojima, even the MGS localizer who had a petty severe falling out with Kojima.

That being said, I have no problem admitting he's a big idea guy more than a good writer per se. But big ideas are important. Strip away all the melodramatic romance and "I killed my soul" and you see MGS2 was attempting something truly innovative. Games much, much later like Spec Ops: The Line would be praised for commenting on the game and the player but Sons of Liberty did it way the hell back in 2001. Kojima used to be called a failed wannabe filmmaker before everybody started applying that to David Cage. But Kojima (and Cage, honestly) really makes use of the video game medium in what he create. MGS2 would indeed be a lovely movie but not just because of bad dialogue. It would be lovely ​because its entire impact and point is to examine the relationship between player and character, gamer and game. MGS2 is a video game and it knows it's a video game and its entire appeal is because it's a video game.

Or, in short, I think Kojima tried to do something legitimately brilliant and ambitious. Maybe his reach exceeded his grasp but I appreciate the fact he tried.

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008

I never liked the whole Old Snake poo poo and Kojima is too in love with Big Boss, a literal war criminal. Was not a fan of 4 at all. 1-3 and Ground Zeroes I can go back and play and love every moment of it, but I just can't with 4 or 5. I don't have as high of opinion of 2 as most people do, I think it crawls up its own butt a bit too much but's still fun to play and it does have some pretty good story bits.

ButterSkeleton
Jan 19, 2020

SIZE=XX-LARGE]PLEASE! PLEASE STOP SAYING THE R WORD. GOD, IF SOMEBODY SAID THE R WORD, I WILL HECKIN LOSE IT. JUST PEE PEE MY JORTS. CAN'T YOU JUST CALL THEM A SMOOTHE BRAINED DOTARD LIKE THE REST OF US NORMAL PEOPLE? DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

P.S. FREE LARRY YOU FUCKIN COWARDS.
Wasn't Old Snake supposed to be a reflection the fanbase wanting to play as solid snake? Like we forced this old dying decrepit guy to be in a game again and he's clearly suffering the whole time lol

The 7th Guest
Dec 17, 2003

The big problem with the MGS series is that they are not strand games

Macaluso
Sep 23, 2005

I HATE THAT HEDGEHOG, BROTHER!

The 7th Guest posted:

The big problem with the MGS series is that they are not strand games

:hmmyes:

Death Stranding is basically perfect and anyone who disagrees isn't a real gamer :colbert:

Hel
Oct 9, 2012

Jokatgulm is tedium.
Jokatgulm is pain.
Jokatgulm is suffering.

ButterSkeleton posted:

Wasn't Old Snake supposed to be a reflection the fanbase wanting to play as solid snake? Like we forced this old dying decrepit guy to be in a game again and he's clearly suffering the whole time lol

Yes, the fanbase is at fault for wanting to play as the guy whose last appearance was saying that he was going to hunt down the people behind the conspiracy and that the other guy should go back to his family.
Maybe it's just that the modern Internet has shown me more of the people behind games, but developers or authors getting pissy about fans wanting what they were told to expect is just exhausting.

ButterSkeleton
Jan 19, 2020

SIZE=XX-LARGE]PLEASE! PLEASE STOP SAYING THE R WORD. GOD, IF SOMEBODY SAID THE R WORD, I WILL HECKIN LOSE IT. JUST PEE PEE MY JORTS. CAN'T YOU JUST CALL THEM A SMOOTHE BRAINED DOTARD LIKE THE REST OF US NORMAL PEOPLE? DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

P.S. FREE LARRY YOU FUCKIN COWARDS.
Idk I think it's kinda funny that we played as an old dying bitter guy who clearly didn't want to do this poo poo anymore and that the critique was pretty decent.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



Solid Snake is clearly at peace and the happiest and healthiest he's been all series in MGS2. It's like he said when quoting Gray Fox - "Fighting is the only thing I was good at but at least I always fought for what I believed in." MGS1 was about how he tied to retire but all it did was drive him to alcoholism and he rushed back to fighting in Shadow Moses because he craved the action so badly that he'd do anything to get back to the battlefield, including serving people who are clearly lying to and using him. Snake is a natural born fighter but in MGS2 he's using that for good, to fight for a cause he believes in, and he's not doing it alone. He has Otacon and others close to him.

It's Raiden who wanted only to be with his family and had two whole endings dedicated to leaving the battlefield to be with his beloved and their child. Then Revengeance said child soldiers can never stop being soldiers and reintegrate into society and he has to abandon his family to continue mutilating people for the rest of his life.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 17:38 on May 15, 2021

Feliday Melody
May 8, 2021

Captain Invictus posted:

the way revengeance uses music is something every game should aspire to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzw3pR6-bO8&hd=1


Wow Metal Gears are kind of garbage :v:

Hel
Oct 9, 2012

Jokatgulm is tedium.
Jokatgulm is pain.
Jokatgulm is suffering.

Feliday Melody posted:

Wow Metal Gears are kind of garbage :v:

In 2 the game where that model is introduced you have to fight 3-24(depending on difficulty setting) of them at the same time, while being a regular human instead of a cyborg. Also in MGS 4 you also defeat one while piloting the robot it's explicitly designed to kill, so yes that variant is kind of garbage. For some reason they keep being brought back in the games, someone must like the design or something.

MechanicalTomPetty
Oct 30, 2011

Runnin' down a dream
That never would come to me

Feliday Melody posted:

Wow Metal Gears are kind of garbage :v:

One aspect of 5 I actually really liked is that the Metal Gear in that game is such an overdesigned mess that they literally needed psychic powers just to get the drat thing to move.

Clip-On Fedora
Feb 20, 2011

Yeah, the only thing that really makes the Metal Gears dangerous is that they have nukes strapped to them. Without that, they're the mech equivalent of a Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey.

I don't think its a coincidence that they kind of look like the ED-209.

Clip-On Fedora fucked around with this message at 18:00 on May 15, 2021

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?

MechanicalTomPetty posted:

One aspect of 5 I actually really liked is that the Metal Gear in that game is such an overdesigned mess that they literally needed psychic powers just to get the drat thing to move.

Big Sally Sahelanthropus is such a bizarre machine. "Okay do we'll strap a nuke to it. Also, let's give it depleted uranium armor so that these archaean cells can metabolize its own body into a bigger nuke. Also let's give it a sword while we're at it."

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Hel posted:

That's why I said it should've ended with four. Because 3 is important and 4 is basically sufficient ending. But PW and the fives just muddles or brings down what interesting narrative bits there are. Having the 3 support team turn bad, old and leave their plans to AI is much interesting than introducing XOF and having them be put of the picture for decades. And creating a fake big boss to make him into a hero just kind of sucks, just imply he survived being burned with a fake death pill and recovered over the decades, if you have human cloning in the seventies full body skin grafts decades later isn't too out there. Doesn't help that a lot of MGSVs plot point and setpieces are ripped from 4, though when your overarching theme is repetition maybe that's ok.


Yes, Revengence is a good CAG but it brings nothing to the MGS series. And funnily enough I almost believe Konami loving them over on deadlines is part of the reason it's that good. Because they got the core stuff working but didn't have time to put in the Platinum standard game ruining segments, even the mandatory afterburner/ shmup section is only like 30 seconds rather than 15 minutes.

MGRR basi ally hits every note mgs2 goes for in a more succinct, entertaining way. And I *like* mgs2.

Two of the best written mgs games weren't written pri aroly by Kojima anyways

Acerbatus fucked around with this message at 18:13 on May 15, 2021

Yardbomb
Jul 11, 2011

What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?

Rex was like the only metal gear that was particularly big and good, like the reason you can blast so many in 2 is that they go into Ray being an idea of a metal gear that can be more easily produced in bulk to be rolled out with conventional armies and stuff, so they're all a deal more flimsy than big stompy.

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
My theory is that the entire RAY fight in MGS2 was a fever dream considering one puts up a decent fight against godly cyborg raiden in rising.

Anyways bringing the thread back on topic, there are two feature film length video essays (don't act like you don't have time to watch them if you care about the subject matter!!), one on MGS4 and one on MGS2 that are pretty good if the series interests you.

Metal Gear Solid 4 Was A Mistake is also one of the funniest videos on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93-_r0w7ykI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGG940kArLE

Feliday Melody
May 8, 2021

It's been a few decades since I played MGS 1 (the last one I played)

Wasn't the whole plot that while Liquid was attacking Solid with Hind missiles. That if Solid had died their entire plan would have fallen apart? That they needed him to activate the nukes?


I thought about that as I went from one murder room to another.

Also that besides the silenced pistol. The other weapons all exist for one. Maybe two niche uses but have no other use. Because firing any one of them causes all the doors to lock until you hide behind a box for a minute and behave yourself.

Augus
Mar 9, 2015


Imagining Metal Gear Rising 2 on the PS5 with the fully-realized cutting physics that were too much for the PS3 to handle and weeping

Yardbomb
Jul 11, 2011

What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?

Acerbatus posted:

Metal Gear Solid 4 Was A Mistake is also one of the funniest videos on youtube.

I've not interest'd that video so many times on the name lol

MechanicalTomPetty
Oct 30, 2011

Runnin' down a dream
That never would come to me

Yardbomb posted:

Rex was like the only metal gear that was particularly big and good, like the reason you can blast so many in 2 is that they go into Ray being an idea of a metal gear that can be more easily produced in bulk to be rolled out with conventional armies and stuff, so they're all a deal more flimsy than big stompy.

It's really telling that the only Metal Gear that really excelled at being a giant robot was the one designed by the giant anime nerd.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



Acerbatus posted:

My theory is that the entire RAY fight in MGS2 was a fever dream considering one puts up a decent fight against godly cyborg raiden in rising.

Anyways bringing the thread back on topic, there are two feature film length video essays (don't act like you don't have time to watch them if you care about the subject matter!!), one on MGS4 and one on MGS2 that are pretty good if the series interests you.

Metal Gear Solid 4 Was A Mistake is also one of the funniest videos on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93-_r0w7ykI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGG940kArLE

That MGS4 video is great and is the longest such video I've rewatched multiple times. I completely forgot Johnny was a serial molester until the video reminded me.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

Metal Gears' conventional weapons are just there to say that they can defend themselves a bit, they're not supposed to be frontline machines. They're basically mobile all-terrain nuke silos.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

Neo_Crimson posted:

Any Metal Gear take that denies Revengeance, the greatest Character Action game ever made, is automatically invalid.
that's Bayonetta actually

Jamie Faith
Jan 13, 2020

Patrick H Willems has a new video

"WHY IS IT SO HARD TO END A TRILOGY"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRoorGEwM9k

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

IronicDongz posted:

that's Bayonetta actually

disqualified on account of being profoundly embarrassing to even look at

Hel
Oct 9, 2012

Jokatgulm is tedium.
Jokatgulm is pain.
Jokatgulm is suffering.

IronicDongz posted:

that's Bayonetta actually

Sorry, but quality is inversely proportional to length of shmup sections.

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream

Dabir posted:

disqualified on account of being profoundly embarrassing to even look at

And yet you still post.

Archer666
Dec 27, 2008
To me, 4 always felt like Kojima was both celebrating MGS and criticizing it and online FPS gaming. Criticizing it cause the War Economy and its effects on the world were basically "Oh you guys want more game!? Well here's a world where conflict is meaningless and endless, and everybody's miserable! That's what happens when you get more and more conflict". And then you have Return To Shadow Moses which very faithfully recreates a whole bunch of MGS areas. I wasn't a fan of the game, loved the online tho.

Dabir posted:

disqualified on account of being profoundly embarrassing to even look at

More like qualified cause stylish and cool hair magic lady does cool dancing.

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Yardbomb posted:

I've not interest'd that video so many times on the name lol

If you're a metal gear fan it's worth watching. He's a lot more fair on the game than the title would imply, imo.

Dabir posted:

Metal Gears' conventional weapons are just there to say that they can defend themselves a bit, they're not supposed to be frontline machines. They're basically mobile all-terrain nuke silos.

That's the thing, Metal Gear RAY is a front line weapon.

IronicDongz posted:

that's Bayonetta actually

Not enough scooby doo and shaggy analogues, sorry.

Yardbomb
Jul 11, 2011

What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?

Bayonetta is improved significantly moreso upon that good rear end haircut in 2.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

Acerbatus posted:

That's the thing, Metal Gear RAY is a front line weapon.

It's also not a real Metal Gear cause it doesn't have a nuke.

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Dabir posted:

It's also not a real Metal Gear cause it doesn't have a nuke.

I think Otacon said RAY still counted because it was part of "nuclear strategy", being designed to destroy nuclear equipped metal gears, but maybe he was full of poo poo who knows.

Ariong
Jun 25, 2012



Vagabundo posted:

I’m a nanny machine, boy!

Snack… do you think that a love can happen in the fighting zone?

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink

Dabir posted:

disqualified on account of being profoundly embarrassing to even look at

I'm sad to say the game where the hero is a pretty boy-cyborg-vampire-ninja-cyborg who's ultimate villain is a football jock is not less embarrassing.

Bakeneko
Jan 9, 2007

Dominic Noble takes a look at the Dingo Pictures adaptation of The Hobbit

…Well, no, not really. But it certainly looks like it could’ve come from them.

watho
Aug 2, 2013


The real world will, again tomorrow, function and run without me.

Jamie Faith posted:

Patrick H Willems has a new video

"WHY IS IT SO HARD TO END A TRILOGY"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRoorGEwM9k

i don’t dislike the story aspects of his videos but it’s very funny to me that we’ve come back to the late 2000s style of internet review that phelous and co relentlessly made fun of

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LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

Dabir posted:

disqualified on account of being profoundly embarrassing to even look at
weird take. anyway watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9ebzDdYd5g

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