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skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Starkiller Base is the best concept out of all of them tbh. The empire spending 50 years turning the secret sacred crystal planet of the Jedi into a super Death Star is believably evil and insane in a way that just ďmake a third oneĒ or ďmake a lot of Death Star guns but put them on boatsĒ really isnít.

Too bad everything about the execution of it is loving terrible and its backstory is irrelevant to everything

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sticklefifer
Nov 11, 2003

TOO EASY

I feel like every society in the galaxy building their own knockoff Death Star is something that would totally happen. Like the excuse would totally be "we need it for defense" but then you'd get rural planet dictators using their lovely off-brand Orbital Murder Cannonô (original content do not steal) to keep their own people in line.

AndyElusive
Jan 7, 2007



The construction and destruction of Starkiller Base should have been the overall story arc of the sequel trilogy.

Because it's a cool loving concept on paper for the First Order to have undertaken. Their use of it to blow up Hosnian Prime would have made a good way to transition them into the Final Order.

AndyElusive fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Feb 22, 2021

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




sticklefifer posted:

I feel like every society in the galaxy building their own knockoff Death Star is something that would totally happen. Like the excuse would totally be "we need it for defense" but then you'd get rural planet dictators using their lovely off-brand Orbital Murder Cannonô (original content do not steal) to keep their own people in line.

This is basically what happened offscreen with Metal Gear, Snake having spent the time between MGS1 and 2 (and probably from 2 to 4) going around the world as a mercenary vigilante hunting knockoff Metal Gears made by terrorist groups, corporations and anyone who had the blueprints and budget. I feel like that's a missed opportunity for a game. Could do it kinda roguelike with randomly generated knockoff Metal Gears with various loadouts and design flaws based on what they were able to slap together and the ridiculous whims of their project managers and moneymen.

More on topic (though I always considered Metal Gear to be basically contemporary-ish milsci Star Wars, it even has a prequel trilogy chronicling the origin of its iconic villain as the protagonist) is that apparently one of the drafts of TFA had the Resistance use a mini-superweapon that's specifically made to take out Death Stars and anything similar.

Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017


sticklefifer posted:

I feel like every society in the galaxy building their own knockoff Death Star is something that would totally happen. Like the excuse would totally be "we need it for defense" but then you'd get rural planet dictators using their lovely off-brand Orbital Murder Cannon™ (original content do not steal) to keep their own people in line.

Then there's that one weird backwater planet whose evil dictator decides to make one that looks like his face and it keeps getting blown up by animals

seaborgium
Aug 1, 2002

"Nothing a shitload of bleach won't fix"


fartknocker posted:

Same author, Kevin J. Anderson, but a different book series. The thing with the committee were the researchers and science team at the Maw with the prototype Death Star in the Jedi Academy books, I think specifically the third one, Champions of the Force. When everything there goes sideways and a giant battle erupted, the various scientists who'd been isolated from the rest of the galaxy for a decade (Since Tarkin took the original Death Star) ended up in control of the shell that was the prototype, which I think got partially blown up and then sucked into one of the black holes of the Maw.

Constantly going back to the Death Star/superweapon well is usually a sign of the weaker EU books. I'm one who didn't mind the Sun Crusher in the Jedi Academy trilogy, as IIRC that was the first time the EU tried something like that so it wasn't horribly run into the ground yet, but then you get all the other wacky stuff after it that shows up once and gets blown up, such as everything in the Callista trilogy (Of which Darksaber is the second book).

If I remember right, the Sun Crusher just got dumped into a sun didn't it? Like it's armor was unbreakable because it couldn't get away from the explosion in time so the only way to get rid of it was to just dump it in a sun so no one could get it back.

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





seaborgium posted:

If I remember right, the Sun Crusher just got dumped into a sun didn't it? Like it's armor was unbreakable because it couldn't get away from the explosion in time so the only way to get rid of it was to just dump it in a sun so no one could get it back.

Black Hole I think

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012

Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.




Wedge Regret

seaborgium posted:

If I remember right, the Sun Crusher just got dumped into a sun didn't it? Like it's armor was unbreakable because it couldn't get away from the explosion in time so the only way to get rid of it was to just dump it in a sun so no one could get it back.

No, originally they dumped it into the gas giant Yavin, but Kyp Durron brought it out with the Force. They ended up sending it into a black hole at the Maw as well (Unlike the science people in the Death Star prototype who went into one unintentionally).

Lobok
Jul 13, 2006

Say Watt?



Black Hole Sun (Crusher)

shades of eternity
Nov 9, 2013

Where kitties raise dragons in the world's largest mall.

They should have been looking for Leia instead of Luke.

That way they could end every episode saying "I'm sorry, but the princess is in another spaceship."

seaborgium
Aug 1, 2002

"Nothing a shitload of bleach won't fix"


fartknocker posted:

No, originally they dumped it into the gas giant Yavin, but Kyp Durron brought it out with the Force. They ended up sending it into a black hole at the Maw as well (Unlike the science people in the Death Star prototype who went into one unintentionally).

I knew it was something. Haven't read those books in 20 years.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017





fartknocker posted:

No, originally they dumped it into the gas giant Yavin, but Kyp Durron brought it out with the Force. They ended up sending it into a black hole at the Maw as well (Unlike the science people in the Death Star prototype who went into one unintentionally).

The Maw scientists also came off as super incompetent. Like what if Dr. Kelp designed war machines for the Empire.

That also struck me as odd as a kid. The Thrawn stuff was mostly about a guy really good at tactics. Then we get a trilogy with two super weapons and Admiral Daala who kept losing Star Destroyers every time she turned around but stuck around herself for ages.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Poor Daala. Literally never escaped accusation of sleeping her way to the top, even when she was like 65 and became president of space

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


skasion posted:

Poor Daala. Literally never escaped accusation of sleeping her way to the top, even when she was like 65 and became president of space

Seems uncomfortably realistic if anything. Wasn't there rumors about Ysanne Isard being the Emperor's lover too?

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Probably. Palpatine hosed everything

Cage Kicker
Feb 20, 2009

End of the fiscal year, bitch.
MP's got time to order pens for year year, hooah?


SKILCRAFT KREW Reppin' Quality Blind Made





Lipstick Apathy

To be honest there are like 1,000,000 habitable worlds in the Star Wars galaxy and one being destroyed across an entire galaxy probably isn't that strange or tragic. It probably happens once a month.

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001




I thought it wasn't so much an accusation as an actual fact in both cases.

Daala got shoved into secrecy to sidestep Tarkin getting in trouble for nailing a subordinate and Isard was like "well, yeah, I did. What of it?"

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





Sash! posted:

I thought it wasn't so much an accusation as an actual fact in both cases.

Daala got shoved into secrecy to sidestep Tarkin getting in trouble for nailing a subordinate and Isard was like "well, yeah, I did. What of it?"

Being the head of the Gestapo because you murdered the previous head of the Gestapo who was also your father has some perks I guess

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


Sash! posted:

I thought it wasn't so much an accusation as an actual fact in both cases.

Daala got shoved into secrecy to sidestep Tarkin getting in trouble for nailing a subordinate and Isard was like "well, yeah, I did. What of it?"

Isard was one of the more entertaining pseudo-Emperors in the EU that I recall, and one of the more intelligent too really. Her plan of "gently caress it, let the Rebellion take Coruscant since they're advancing relentlessly and taking over everything anyway, but let's make Coruscant a giant burden that'll cripple them because it's riddled with a horrific virus with no cure" was awful but seemed perfectly in character and like something that could crush the Rebellion under the burden of responsibility if they didn't find a cure.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Donít worry, ďIsardís RevengeĒ retroactively makes the character look stupid and also hammers home the point by giving her a moron clone

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017





skasion posted:

Don’t worry, “Isard’s Revenge” retroactively makes the character look stupid and also hammers home the point by giving her a moron clone

I keep meaning to re-read Rogue Squadron which I did at least enjoy at the time but I'm put off by the notion of Corran Horn is Good At Everything (including rocking the world of a weasel alien).

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


The original four books arenít too terrible about that. Heís still annoying and overly smug and powerful protagonist but at least heís not a Jedi yet. Wraith Squad books and Starfighters of Adumar are better. Isardís Revenge you can skip, it doesnít really add much. Thereís also Mercy Kill which is like a old men of Wraith Squad reunion as one last hurrah before Disney bought everything, itís kind of fun for what it is but you have to have read all the giant late-EU series to follow the plot.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


Dawgstar posted:

I keep meaning to re-read Rogue Squadron which I did at least enjoy at the time but I'm put off by the notion of Corran Horn is Good At Everything (including rocking the world of a weasel alien).

I never read the later books Stackpole did for Rogue Squadron, but I remember really enjoying the first few alongside the Wraith Squadron books. Looking it up though, almost everything I remember liking was in the Wraith Squadron books so I don't even know what I'd think of the Rogue Squadron books if I read them now. I don't recall finding Corran Horn particularly egregious when I read them at the least, but then, I was a teenager at the time and 20 years could have made a lot of difference. Even small stuff like the running "Yub, Yub commander" joke about an Ewok pilot is from the Wraith Squadron, and those definitely had the more interesting and memorable pilots like Piggy, Runt, Face Loran, Falynn Sandskimmer etc.

I think the X-Wing game reference about the unbeatable simulator training mission to protect some medical frigates is in the Rogue Squadron books at least, which I always appreciated, because jesus was that mission in the game a ballache.

Captain Splendid
Jan 7, 2009

Qu'en pense Caffarelli?

Dawgstar posted:

I keep meaning to re-read Rogue Squadron which I did at least enjoy at the time but I'm put off by the notion of Corran Horn is Good At Everything (including rocking the world of a weasel alien).

Skip to the Wraith books, they're more fun

skasion posted:

Thereís also Mercy Kill which is like a old men of Wraith Squad reunion as one last hurrah before Disney bought everything

I think it was Allston's last novel too

Captain Splendid fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Feb 22, 2021

Cross-Section
Mar 18, 2009



Worth noting that canon novel series Alphabet Squadron has some pretty heavy Wraith vibes and some fun cameos to boot. Final book's out next week.

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012

Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.




Wedge Regret

tsob posted:

I think the X-Wing game reference about the unbeatable simulator training mission to protect some medical frigates is in the Rogue Squadron books at least, which I always appreciated, because jesus was that mission in the game a ballache.

That's the very first chapter of the first Stackpole book.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Falyn Sandskimmer is kind of funny because the character has all this pathos, but sheís like the fifth or sixth Tatooinian militant named Person Thingdoer to get in an x-wing and by now nobody cares

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


That's why I like her. She's eternally trapped in the shadow of Luke as another Tattooinian pilot, but really resentful of it and just wants to be recognized for her own deeds. Her death is cool enough that she'll always be someone I remember, so I think she succeeded.

For anyone who didn't read the books (or just forgot her): she died flying her X-Wing inside the exposed engine block of a Star Destroyer and blowing them up from the inside.

I think Chewie's Legend's death is the only other one I recall. It seemed to tick a lot of people off, but he died having saved a bunch of people, including Han's kid, before screaming defiance at a Moon that was crashing planetside. And that's pretty loving metal.

Slashrat
Jun 6, 2011

YOSPOS


I could see how some it might rub some people the wrong way that Chewie's death happened as basically the opening shot of an epic war rather than in service to winning it, but it was a pretty metal way to go out, true.

I also thought the thread that followed from that with Han Solo dealing with the grief of losing his oldest friend made for an interesting story.

galenanorth
May 19, 2016



sticklefifer posted:

I feel like every society in the galaxy building their own knockoff Death Star is something that would totally happen. Like the excuse would totally be "we need it for defense" but then you'd get rural planet dictators using their lovely off-brand Orbital Murder Cannonô (original content do not steal) to keep their own people in line.

I'm imagining the scene from Star Trek: Enterprise where a giant space laser cuts a giant ditch clear across Florida, except not on Earth, and then it cuts to some wall-eyed chucklehead staring into the holocam and grinning

It's also possible that some kind of black-market space Raytheon could be making them for them for profit

galenanorth fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Feb 23, 2021

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Chewie dying was not executed terribly, but it came from a bad conceptual direction where they were very invested in marking out the NJO books as serious edgy mature Star Wars for grownups.

I would much rather they killed Chewie than subjected me to those three books later in NJO that are literally just ďremember Black Fleet Crisis? No? Ok how about Truce at BakuraĒ

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


tsob posted:

I think Chewie's Legend's death is the only other one I recall. It seemed to tick a lot of people off, but he died having saved a bunch of people, including Han's kid, before screaming defiance at a Moon that was crashing planetside. And that's pretty loving metal.

Chewie's Legends death was extremely metal. Meanwhile in the Sequel Trilogy he's basically the survivor of the original crew who gets a medal (that Maz whatever stole from Leia's corpse or something).

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

low vis




Everyone posted:

Chewie's Legends death was extremely metal. Meanwhile in the Sequel Trilogy he's basically the survivor of the original crew who gets a medal (that Maz whatever stole from Leia's corpse or something).

She pulled it out of the Falcon after everyone got back to Planet Are We Even Going To Pretend This Isn't Just Yavin IV Again, JJ? at the end of the movie, so she actually just re-gifted him the medal that Han got at the end of A New Hope 40 years ago.

AdmiralViscen
Nov 2, 2011




Iím pretty sure that in some comic book it is revealed that Han was broke and traded it to her for another round of drinks like 10 years ago and she hung on to it to give to chewie in that moment

AdmiralViscen
Nov 2, 2011




That movie sucks rear end

Sir DonkeyPunch
Mar 23, 2007

I didn't hear no bell


fartknocker posted:

Constantly going back to the Death Star/superweapon well is usually a sign of the weaker EU books.

Uh, letís list some books that donít have a superweapon

- Truce At Bakura
- The Crystal Star
- The Courtship Of Princess Leia

I donít think thereís much correlation here

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?


Sir DonkeyPunch posted:

Uh, letís list some books that donít have a superweapon

- Truce At Bakura
- The Crystal Star
- The Courtship Of Princess Leia

I donít think thereís much correlation here

Yeah i mean Iím not sure thereís any rigid criterion for damning any particular group of Star Wars books, the baseline is fairly terrible

Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017


nine-gear crow posted:

She pulled it out of the Falcon after everyone got back to Planet Are We Even Going To Pretend This Isn't Just Yavin IV Again, JJ? at the end of the movie, so she actually just re-gifted him the medal that Han got at the end of A New Hope 40 years ago.

I am amazed he didn't slap it out of her hands and punt her over the horizon for grave-robbing from Leia and dishonoring his family's legacy

Ya know, given how the rest of the ST treats the past 43 years of the franchise

Subverting expectations til the last, I suppose?

Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady


AdmiralViscen posted:

Iím pretty sure that in some comic book it is revealed that Han was broke and traded it to her for another round of drinks like 10 years ago and she hung on to it to give to chewie in that moment
Chewie got a medal later and gave it to some random kid when flying around in an A-wing for... reasons. It's actually a pretty fun comic, overall, but it makes zero sense.

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Sash!
Mar 16, 2001




skasion posted:

remember Black Fleet Crisis?

I'd rather not remember it. Although, didn't that author come up with the K-Wing?

Sir DonkeyPunch posted:

- The Courtship Of Princess Leia

Yet, this one has been strip mined for every possible tidbit to introduce into the new canon!

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