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MazelTovCocktail posted:Hey that reminds me Cyberpunk 2077 is coming out on December 10th! The evening of December 9th if you live in the US! Its released worldwide at midnight for Poland so UTC+1 I think.
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Nov 30, 2020 18:05
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I think it will depend more on the position. I do believe anyone that was watching over folks shoulders instead of using hard metrics will have to find a new way to "measure" productivity (putting aside the "productivity is bullshit" argument for a sec that I agree with in a lot cases). But it's not likely to be intrusively monitoring microphones and cameras - you might pick up information from someone's home life that most HR and legal departments are going to punt on hard. Workplace privileges are always going to be stratified unfortunately, because there are always managers with a do as I say not do as I do mentality. I just don't think it will extend to Orwellian monitoring of people's home offices. But maybe how many clicks on a desktop, emails sent, etc..
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Nov 30, 2020 18:06
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Working from home would be a lot better if it also meant working from a library or coffee shop
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Nov 30, 2020 18:07
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Pine Cone Jones posted:I feel like this might be salary stratified, folks that are higher paid might be exempt from any kind of spyware, though contract or part time folks will probably get hosed in some way. Even here they don't just have your camera/mic on all the time, you just get randomly interrupted by a supervisor wanting a video chat to see how you are doing. They were always annoyed that my camera always seemed broke, as if somehow the wrong drivers were loaded
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Nov 30, 2020 18:08
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i am a moron posted:Workplace privileges are always going to be stratified unfortunately, because there are always managers with a do as I say not do as I do mentality. I just don't think it will extend to Orwellian monitoring of people's home offices. But maybe how many clicks on a desktop, emails sent, etc.. I saw that years ago when I tried doing remote contract math/research work on the online programming contract exchanges. It was standard for clients to be able to Team Viewer into your computer and see what you were doing per hour. I refused and only did non-monitored work, which left me very poor for a long time but I could sleep at night. If you want to see what it'll be like, ask someone that actually got into that ecosystem and has done it full time, I can imagine it's fairly unpleasant.
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Nov 30, 2020 18:19
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hobbesmaster posted:The evening of December 9th if you live in the US! Its released worldwide at midnight for Poland so UTC+1 I think. Yep! At first when I saw 7:00 PM EST...I was like goddamn...oh it’s the 9th.  Also perfect timing because I can get the kids to bed within an hour or two of that.
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Nov 30, 2020 18:21
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MazelTovCocktail posted:But I also don’t think there is going to be too much monitoring except for security related things. In say doc review, that computer will be logging what you do...but just keep your own comp next to you. I don’t expect lots of a/v stuff because...good luck when NY or CA passes a bill to outlaw it. I think you'll have some sort of "keep a webcam on while you're actively working" requirement. There's already some companies I've heard rumors and anecdotes of companies requiring low tier helldesk dudes to basically have webcams on while they're working, and not having it on is considered them not working. edit: Although thinking about you can't possibly stop someone with some knowledge of obs and some good planning to make a thirty minute loop of you working at the start of the day and dropping in and out seamlessly, if there's some sort of interaction requirement. Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Nov 30, 2020 |
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Nov 30, 2020 18:27
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I once again feel fortunate that I lucked out of a life of helljobs.MazelTovCocktail posted:Honestly I haven’t seen that anymore then the normal...hey your salaried and OT exempt stuff you would always see. But obviously that varies form place to place. It's a common complaint from my friends, who are in various white collar industries. Before all this started everyone was bitching that they were getting more and more responsibility with no compensation, so it could just be an extension of that.
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Nov 30, 2020 18:37
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Hexyflexy posted:I saw that years ago when I tried doing remote contract math/research work on the online programming contract exchanges. It was standard for clients to be able to Team Viewer into your computer and see what you were doing per hour. I refused and only did non-monitored work, which left me very poor for a long time but I could sleep at night. As lovely as that is, I would still classify that entirely differently from monitoring mics/cameras. As an IT person, people having the ability to drop in on a desktop and see whatever they want does not strike me as abnormal though. Defenestrategy posted:I think you'll have some sort of "keep a webcam on while you're actively working" requirement. There's already some companies I've heard rumors and anecdotes of companies requiring low tier helldesk dudes to basically have webcams on while they're working, and not having it on is considered them not working. That's so loving stupid, but I also wonder if it isn't going to be extremely local to bad management. I know a dude that manages a huge piece of a call center with 1000's of employees total and they aren't doing anything like that. They've always had easy ways to track metrics though. They are firing the poo poo out of people who are claiming they have computer issues when they aren't and are collecting paychecks while waiting for support from IT.
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Nov 30, 2020 18:47
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https://twitter.com/NRO/status/1333453247500185603 The fact that this came from the national review is pretty amusing
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Nov 30, 2020 18:54
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Monitoring your computer is likely a thing your company does whether you are in the office or wfh, thats just how it works. Its not even all that unusual at higher levels, its just not actively advertised that its done. It is 100% not the same thing as mics/cameras, which are a gross invasion of my private home, which my job only gets to design if they are adding a stipend to.my salary to rent office space from me
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Nov 30, 2020 18:59
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Pine Cone Jones posted:https://twitter.com/NRO/status/1333453247500185603 The tend to be against things that make fascism look bad.
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Nov 30, 2020 19:07
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RFC2324 posted:Monitoring your computer is likely a thing your company does whether you are in the office or wfh, thats just how it works. Its not even all that unusual at higher levels, its just not actively advertised that its done. I think it's a continuum from the companies point of view, everyone accepts A, so they're going to end up accepting B. I'm not sure what the hell you do about it before it gets normalised, which it will do fast.
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Nov 30, 2020 19:13
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If the employer wants to monitor it, they ought to be paying for it. Want screenshare? Buy me a computer Want webcam? Buy me a house. I still don’t think they should be doing these things without a good reason, but paying for the poo poo they spy on is the bare minimum.
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Nov 30, 2020 19:14
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i am a moron posted:Lots of companies/industries have been predominantly WFH for ages and don't do that. I have a hard time imagining companies are looking at productivity boosts and their shrinking overhead and thinking they need to do anything about it. You also get into liability concerns a lot of companies aren't about to touch. Surveilling someone at home is a huge can of worms in that regard. The legal deterrence argument isn't as effective as you think. You'll get a lot of management types saying they own the laptops thus they have the right to do what ever they please with them. Or just brushing it off. If it's a big enough company to have an internal legal department then they might be able to swing a big enough hammer to stop it. But for a lot of mediumish businesses, they won't give a gently caress.
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Nov 30, 2020 19:28
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i'm sure i signed something that says my employer is allowed to monitor my activity on company owned devices and i'm 99% sure anyone who does their work on computers did the same thing.
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Nov 30, 2020 19:30
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Woofer posted:i'm sure i signed something that says my employer is allowed to monitor my activity on company owned devices and i'm 99% sure anyone who does their work on computers did the same thing. This. It's part of the AUP everyone signs, but it doesn't apply to the camera/mic poo poo, only them monitoring what the computer itself is doing
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Nov 30, 2020 19:36
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Thomamelas posted:The legal deterrence argument isn't as effective as you think. You'll get a lot of management types saying they own the laptops thus they have the right to do what ever they please with them. Or just brushing it off. If it's a big enough company to have an internal legal department then they might be able to swing a big enough hammer to stop it. But for a lot of mediumish businesses, they won't give a gently caress. Okay, so you're at a place with no legal counsel inside or out really and no HR department that stays updated on these sorts of things. Where are they going to scrounge the money or time up to monitor people like that?
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Nov 30, 2020 19:40
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i am a moron posted:That's so loving stupid, but I also wonder if it isn't going to be extremely local to bad management. Most management is bad management in my experience. My company had two days WFH as a perk you got after being in office for three months. Once the rona hit and everyone basically threatened to walk if WFH didn't get expanded to 100%. As a compromise, they gave us 100% but gave us a really lovely 9am mandatory attendance meeting. Which was hosed, because we had "flex hours" meaning we could start at 10am and "leave later" if we wanted, but now for all intents and purposes flex hours no longer actually exist, because the managers in their eternal wisdom decided what should have been a 5 minute "everyone is online cool" meeting turned into a thirty minute standup. In short, managers need to feel as if they're doing something to justify their existence and execs by and large have a sociopathic need for BUTTS IN SEATS!
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Nov 30, 2020 19:40
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i am a moron posted:Okay, so you're at a place with no legal counsel inside or out really and no HR department that stays updated on these sorts of things. Where are they going to scrounge the money or time up to monitor people like that? The most common actually mechanism for this is to take a screenshot every 30 seconds or so, and then the monitoring takes the form of a high speed slideshow showing 2 screenshots a second. Not actually a huge amount of manpower.
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Nov 30, 2020 19:43
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And they're picking up mic traffic too somehow?
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Nov 30, 2020 19:43
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Management is bad in most experiences because most managers are working for the person above them first and always, not managing the people below them in an efficient way. Most of us saw this in the military. It doesn’t change. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk (And by efficient I mean “let’s do our work and go the gently caress home” which doesn’t work in the military or with my job — you just get more work assigned to you immediately)
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Nov 30, 2020 19:44
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There is no reward for working hard except working hard.
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Nov 30, 2020 19:46
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i am a moron posted:And they're picking up mic traffic too somehow? Literally the only places I have seen this happen are call centers where they are literally recording every call and monitoring that is something they have to budget for anyway
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Nov 30, 2020 19:46
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Meanwhile, Biden won Arizona again. Senator-Elect Mark Kelly likely gets sworn in on Wednesday. https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1333480213255229442
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Nov 30, 2020 19:48
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Right and so call recording is a different beast entirely. There's regulations and quality issues around recording. That isn't weird. The employees know it's happening, and it's going to be recorded on whatever they're using for calls and not a computer mic. A company spying on a mic/webcam is a different can of worms entirely to me, especially considering these devices are in someone's home and there is a clear expectation of privacy there. I'm not trying to be obtuse or anything. I work for a company that works with a bunch of companies from F10's to smaller companies. I haven't heard of any workplace surveillance efforts at any of them, and the feedback we've gotten is that productivity is up and overhead is down. Unless you're in something like commercial real estate, in which case you're declaring bankruptcy and preparing for the asset strip mining. I also accept that I'm not aware of what every company on the entire planet is doing, so maybe I'm in a really lucky slice of corporate America. Idk.
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Nov 30, 2020 19:50
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i am a moron posted:Right and so call recording is a different beast entirely. There's regulations and quality issues around recording. That isn't weird. The employees know it's happening, and it's going to be recorded on whatever they're using for calls and not a computer mic. A company spying on a mic/webcam is a different can of worms entirely to me, especially considering these devices are in someone's home and there is a clear expectation of privacy there. I think we are both saying that the monitoring people fear is unlikely. Monitoring your desktop is totally a thing, monitoring your camera/mic are totally different and not really a thing, even if its technically possible
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Nov 30, 2020 19:54
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RFC2324 posted:I think we are both saying that the monitoring people fear is unlikely. Monitoring your desktop is totally a thing, monitoring your camera/mic are totally different and not really a thing, even if its technically possible Yea we are, I was agreeing with you. Just saying that even in that case there are clear boundaries around it and no one is being secretly monitored.
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Nov 30, 2020 19:56
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i am a moron posted:Lots of companies/industries have been predominantly WFH for ages and don't do that. I have a hard time imagining companies are looking at productivity boosts and their shrinking overhead and thinking they need to do anything about it. You also get into liability concerns a lot of companies aren't about to touch. Surveilling someone at home is a huge can of worms in that regard. Yes, but by making the WFH thing so much more acceptable you'll be exposing the concept to a bunch of managers who never did it before. And nothing can generate stupid loving ideas that have no basis in reality and are of quasi legality faster than a middle manager.
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Nov 30, 2020 20:01
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There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a manager in the depths of an ethernet binge.
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Nov 30, 2020 20:04
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CainFortea posted:Yes, but by making the WFH thing so much more acceptable you'll be exposing the concept to a bunch of managers who never did it before. And nothing can generate stupid loving ideas that have no basis in reality and are of quasi legality faster than a middle manager. Vas is getting a burning sensation in his ears.
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Nov 30, 2020 20:05
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Good luck monitoring my personal computer, I run Windows 10 in a VM and then connect to my work PC remotely via a remote desktop session. I'd absolutely refuse if my employer demanded access to it remotely. I mean I'm sure it's somehow technically feasible for monitoring to jump from a VM to the host machine, but I doubt my corporate employer has those means or would do it.
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Nov 30, 2020 20:07
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FOX Nation apparently is now in the movie business with their very own Christmas flick. I can't wait to see the synopsis, which will be something like.: "(person) is headed home to celebrate Christmas, but the Liberal, LAMESTREAM media and Radical Left are interfering with their ability to fully celebrate with political correctness".
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Nov 30, 2020 20:09
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i am a moron posted:Okay, so you're at a place with no legal counsel inside or out really and no HR department that stays updated on these sorts of things. Where are they going to scrounge the money or time up to monitor people like that? I've spent years doing design work for video surveillance. Audio surveillance comes up a lot and I have to stomp hard on it to shut down the idea. Even at Fortune 100 companies, HR never said a word during those meetings. Legal Counsel has. What you're most likely to get out of HR is something added to the employee handbook mentioning it. But that doesn't cover the issue of the recordings of conversations for non-employees. Which frankly in my experience isn't something they are likely to think about. The distinction here is when you get audio recording of non-employees. Employees are easy to get consent for. You make it a term of employment. Is it coercive, hosed up, and assholish? Yes. But most people likely consented to their employers recording calls on work phones. It's not unknown for sales departments and other customer facing phones to be recorded for training purposes. Employees are covered with line in the employee handbooks and non-employees get the recorded message that there conversation is going to be recorded. So if HR knows they can do stuff to legally record phone calls, are they likely to realize that recording the audio input from a webcam might be different? Possibly. But I wouldn't be counting on HR to give good legal advice here. Again, I've sat through too many meetings where HR didn't say a word about covertly recording conversations in a breakroom. As for the budget. It comes out of IT. Either in the form of a capex expense. Or by making someone in IT hack together a solution. Off the top of my head, you could do it with iSpy for free. You'd just need to upload the video files which could be done by script. I can't imagine it would do great things for your VPN connection. Which might be the absolute most effective argument to make against it.
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Nov 30, 2020 20:10
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facialimpediment posted:Meanwhile, Biden won Arizona again. Senator-Elect Mark Kelly likely gets sworn in on Wednesday. I feel like Astronauts should get either Astronaut or Space in front of all future titles. So thats Space-Senator-Elect Mark Kelly.
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Nov 30, 2020 20:11
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CainFortea posted:Yes, but by making the WFH thing so much more acceptable you'll be exposing the concept to a bunch of managers who never did it before. And nothing can generate stupid loving ideas that have no basis in reality and are of quasi legality faster than a middle manager. Once again I might be getting a bit myopic here, but there are way more stakeholders in that than some middle managers in an ops division/team/whatever. The largest companies would require a huge number of reviews to implement something like this, and they aren't going to overcome legal reviews by complaining they can't monitor people closely enough. Small/medium businesses maybe. I dunno. Seems like a bigger lift than most of them could afford or be capable of figuring out in a way that isn't worthless. Thomamelas posted:snip Interesting! HR departments quality can certainly vary, I find it depends on their interconnectedness with legal in the first place. Also I don't mean "who's coming up with the capex/opex for this". I'm saying I don't think a lot of smaller companies have the money period, no matter whose budget it's coming out of. Never heard of iSpy though so welp i am a moron fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Nov 30, 2020 |
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Nov 30, 2020 20:13
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Platystemon posted:There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a manager in the depths of an ethernet binge. We can't stop here, this is NAT country!
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Nov 30, 2020 20:30
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Flying_Crab posted:Good luck monitoring my personal computer, I run Windows 10 in a VM and then connect to my work PC remotely via a remote desktop session. I'd absolutely refuse if my employer demanded access to it remotely. Monitoring your personal computer isn't the point though, they want to know what you're doing on the work device. Tech companies are jumping on presenting a profile of a worker's "productivity" now that managers can't stand over their shoulders - how much time did you spend in Excel, how many e-mails did you send, how long did it take you to respond to slack messages. Never underestimate the need for middle managers to justify their existence.
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Nov 30, 2020 20:52
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So employers can just casually monitor all activities on employee's computers in the US, wfh or not?
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Nov 30, 2020 20:56
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Duzzy Funlop posted:So employers can just casually monitor all activities on employee's computers in the US, wfh or not? WFH doesn't mean use your personal computer. It's best practice to give your employee's work laptops/desktops that is only used for work related tasks [Powerpoint, coding, spotify] that stuff. edit: if you don't want to do actual laptops you could do, VDI stuff or teach people to RDP to their work desktops at the office.
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Nov 30, 2020 21:03
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