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GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

When trials was not in the game, everyone wanted trials back

Now that it is back nobody really enjoys it

That's not a dig at the players for being fickle; bungie just screwed the pooch in designing & supporting it


Excited to get a timeworn spire in iron banner 2morrow tho

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RBX
Jan 2, 2011



Eej posted:

People are gonna be real mad when they lose at 6 because they got matchmade with a potato they had no control over


DTG has an extremely strong contingent of people who believe in the purity of the Trials experience dating back to D1 and all Bungie has to do is X, Y, Z and it'll be amazing and the best again.

That's life and happens in every game.

DTG/reddit has been just as critical as youtube and this thread, and every where else.

Roctavian
Feb 23, 2011



Bobby Deluxe posted:

Really not looking forward to week 8 when I'm expected to somehow get 7 wins. Even if I manage to scrape a win, I'm just going to feel bad about the person I beat - if they're worse at PvP than me, that's going to be a soul crushing grind of a weekend.

Or week 6 asking to do a GM nightfall. I am going to need to be carried so hard I will be loving embarrassed for whoever has to drag me through. And even then that's not a test of skill, that's a test of being able to use LFG or one of those completion services Facebook leeps trying to advertise to me.

You can still get the seasonal completion without those (75 challenges to get the big bright dust pile, but there are 77 challenges on the weekly lists)

Bobby Deluxe
May 9, 2004

this changes nothing, i am still dead inside

Roctavian posted:

You can still get the seasonal completion without those (75 challenges to get the big bright dust pile, but there are 77 challenges on the weekly lists)
Oh word? Well I suddenly feel less poo poo, so thankyou.

RBX
Jan 2, 2011



Do we know if they're retroactive?

Scyantific
Feb 13, 2011



Probably not. All they gotta do anyway is throw Igneous Hammer or Messenger back at the 3 win milestone and you'll have tons of casuals clamoring for the loot anyway.

The GM challenge should be fairly easy too, just run Arms Dealer GM, it'll probably be the easiest one this season.

PERMACAV 50
Jul 24, 2007

because we are cat


RBX posted:

Do we know if they're retroactive?

Within a single season, yes. Once a challenge goes live you have until the end of the season to finish it.

quote:

These Challenges can only be completed once per account, but once they become available, these Challenges can be completed at any time before the end of the Season, and do not need to be started or picked up from a vendor.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Devil's Lair GM is probably gonna be real fun if you get some "on kill" builds going.

dragonshardz
May 2, 2017




RBX posted:

Honestly who gives a gently caress. Oh no I lost. At least I didn't have to go out my way outside the game to do it. I can just chill quietly by myself and lose until I get my engram. Every game has stacks. I've beaten many a stack in many a game. People are so scared of just losing in this game for some reason.

Even Kotaku is getting in on "Trials bad, sucks to play, just lose" wagon: https://kotaku.com/destiny-2-players-are-jumping-off-cliffs-to-avoid-playi-1846326950

Discospawn
Mar 3, 2007



RBX posted:

All of that is cool and correct but the light level bullshit makes it all moot.
Oh, well, Light Level-enabled PvP is just dumb (especially with the LL grind requiring primarily PvE playtime once you get to the soft cap).

It's one of those fundamental inconsistencies like how non-comp Crucible is the only game mode not affected by sunsetting (not that I endorse sunsetting in any context, but if there was any part of the game where you could justify OP guns going away after a year of never being properly balanced, it would be the baseline PvP playlist).

Edit:

RBX posted:

Do we know if they're retroactive?

PERMACAV 50 posted:

Within a single season, yes. Once a challenge goes live you have until the end of the season to finish it.
I think there's some confusion over 'retroactive.' You won't get credit for any Trials wins you get before that weekly challenge goes live. Once the challenge goes live, any progress until the end of the season goes towards it (e.g. Trials wins during separate weekends for those final 5 weeks). So it's 'futureactive' (?) in the sense that it lasts indefinitely until the end of the season, but definitely not retroactive (making it kind of a dick move to put more difficult/grindier challenges at the end of the season rather than the beginning).

The exceptions to these are some of the seasonal unlock challenges, because there's a finite amount of upgrades/unlocks so they have to be retroactive to prevent people from getting locked out of completing them.

Discospawn fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Feb 23, 2021

J.A.B.C.
Jul 2, 2007

There's no need to rush to be an adult.


Discospawn posted:

Trials is a fundamentally flawed game mode because of its emphasis on streaks.

Trials With Skill-Based Matchmaking
If you enable skill-based matchmaking (with a large player population and perfectly accurate MMR calculation), every match would be a 50/50 shot of winning for both sides. Assuming they could implement this, teams would get the following odds for the reward tiers for each card attempt (assuming players use the Mercy card to forgive a loss and only reset their card when their card has failed):
3-Win - 77% (virtually guaranteed)
5-Win - 50% (still good enough odds to reset your card a few times to go for)
7-Win - 27% (definitely harder to achieve, especially because you may fail a card after 6 wins, which means you've played 10 full games before deciding whether to reset and try again)
Flawless - 3.5% (Unjustifiable in terms of time/effort vs. rewards. Like the lottery, there will be some teams that achieve it, but it's not a good investment. As a result, Flawless rewards would not go to the highest skilled players, but simply the luckiest or those who played the game an absurd amount.)

That's assuming all of the MMR systems are perfect, a perfectly accurate rank with no manipulation of the MMR being possible. This would be impossible to implement, as most MMR calculations will look at winning streaks as a sign that your MMR needs to be dramatically increased, which directly conflicts with Trials' core reward mechanic. Looking at Bungie's history with competitive PvP & skill ranking, there would likely be even more fundamental problems with trying to implement this IRL (especially with the consideration that Individual MMR and Team MMR can be very different things).

It's a poor design because with this ideal skill-based system you would have these intense, closely matched PvP games that go back-and-forth and really motivate players to improve over time and play their best each game, and it wouldn't matter with regards to a player's success in achieving the rewards. Players would instead realize that it was just as efficient to play halfheartedly and grind out games and/or hope you get lucky (assuming your MMR would somehow update instantly to reflect your unengaged playstyle).

Trials Without Skill-Based Matchmaking
So instead of trying to deal with any of that, you have the current Trials game mode. The issues have already been made apparent, where players/teams below a certain skill level have a dramatically lower chance of winning each match against the average Trials team. You can re-do those same calculations above, with the assumption that your team only has a 25% shot of winning a given match (a category of players who might be more than 25% of the player population since being even slightly below the average skill level might dramatically lower your win percentage):
3-Win - 24% (An average of 4 resets required to achieve. 4 resets can be anywhere from 19-30 games assuming you only reset once your card is ruined)
5-Win - 5% (average of 20 runs required, from 85-165 games )
7-Win - .76% (that's a point 76 percentage chance, so that's never going to happen in a single weekend)
Flawless - .04% (you get the point)

Obviously, as players below this threshold of skill level recognize the unrewarding nature of the game, they stop participating in it. This means that the player base gets smaller, but the same problem remains where a significant portion of population will now have their winrates drop to 25%, causing the cycle we've seen since Trials was introduced.

In conclusion, Trials can get hosed.

Amazing work here.

Honestly, the idea of Trials is, in and of itself, one of those better on paper ideas: end-game PvP that rewards those skilled players for their hard-earned victory with exclusive loot. On the surface it looks like a great idea, but then you start to run into the problems:

- end-game PvP that offers nothing new compared to the base experience outside of intrinsic growth (no new set pieces/bosses/modes), therefor eschewing the traditional point of an end-game.

- rewards skilled players, but usually with a large dose of luck to not run into cheaters, exploits, hackers and the like. Or, just finding the motivation to play with people and face the stompfest at the top of the card. This is an issue that has drawn people away from Trials arguably the most, and the one that you always see people complaining about.

- exclusive loot is, by it's definition, exclusive. Meaning fewer people will have it, and more will complain about not having it.

To be honest, it'd be hard to fix Trials in a way that keeps it in it's stated goal (a PvP endgame content meant to be played with friends) without radically changing what it is.

If you add in matchmaking, along with the math above, you run into essentially three tiers of Trials: people grinding out loot through the lowest cost of effort, people earnestly trying to play while being matched with ledgejumpers, and pure Trials players using the free wins for stomps and easier Flawless which kills the spirit of the activity. But in the end everyone gets their pity engram and tokens, and the loot pool becomes less enviable. We already have a version of this called Showdown, and no one likes Showdown.

By somehow lowering the skill cap to get into Trials, you lose the competitive pressure that draws people to the chase. You see it in Fighting Games a lot: the desire to reach a higher rank, the drive to put on that new title, the number going up. For a prime example, look at the recent Guilty Gear Strive beta: that lobby system is trash and people will tell you it's trash, but look at the people bragging they got to the Heaven floor, or getting stomped out of it. People quickly set up floor rankings as a badge of pride and a hunger to go higher, to test yourself, to grow stronger. In a sense, Flawless cards are supposed to be this: go higher, get better loot. But given how many Igneous Hammers (Adept) kept venting my skull this week, it seems like there may be issues in the balance there.

(By the way, I was the Korea Floor 5 gatekeeper. Don't press buttons, I will catch you.)

And lastly, the loot is...well, it's nice. It's designed around the activity, compliments it with exclusive perks and frames that have a definite PvP edge. I got a Messenger with Wingman and Rapid Hit that is pointless anywhere else but made me somewhat decent in mid range on Altar of Flame. But everyone could get it, which kinda makes the end-game status somewhat frivolous.

They are in a tough spot, having to deal with these various factions wanting different things, and I don't know if anyone has a clear answer on how to fix it.

Rubellavator
Aug 16, 2007
UNTALENTED & INCONSIDERATE

Bungie needs to be a lot more generous with the rewards if they want people to play Trials.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Showdown owns and they should replace Survival with it actually

ClydeFrog
Apr 13, 2007

Jesus Suffering Fuck how can running for 3 minutes BE SO HARD.

5 hammer charges for high resilience armour yay.

51 total points boo.

Not wasting charges on that in future methinks.

Sekenr
Dec 12, 2013






tha gently caress? Did Bungie suddenly advanced enough that game no longer kicks you out after 5 minutes of inactivity? I went out to a shop and pharmacy, came back and I was still logged in!

Bobby Deluxe
May 9, 2004

this changes nothing, i am still dead inside

New alleged exotic glitch.

Apparently if your engrams are full and you wait to decrypt, there's a way of waiting to decrypt it that will affect which specific exotic you get based on what day it is. Though unhelpfully the article doesn't really go into any detail about the specifics of the process.

Nearest I can find to the reddit source mentioned: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/lp2jc8/legend_lost_sector_exotic_engram_glitch/

Is there a way of looking up deleted reddit posts? The dtg mods seem to have wiped it.

Nelson Mandingo
Mar 27, 2005





Rubellavator posted:

Bungie needs to be a lot more generous with the rewards if they want people to play Trials.

I think the literally no effort patch that immediately stops the bleeding is outright removing the penalty for losing in trials. There is still incentive to go flawless and win but now everyone can get loot if they're persistent enough. And really, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Getting people to play trials to begin with is how people get better at trials. There is objectively no reason to have the loss penalty at this point with adept gear. Even if it's just the forgiveness buy in.

Nelson Mandingo fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Feb 23, 2021

SkyeAuroline
Nov 12, 2020


Beyond Light finished, Behemoth subclass get. Now I, too, can be the crucible jackass.

... Just as soon as every control match stops being 10 Hunters throwing Silence and Squall around.
Also, No Time to Explain feels very weird to use. Automatic pulse timing is inconsistent.

Bobby Deluxe posted:

New alleged exotic glitch.

Apparently if your engrams are full and you wait to decrypt, there's a way of waiting to decrypt it that will affect which specific exotic you get based on what day it is. Though unhelpfully the article doesn't really go into any detail about the specifics of the process.

Nearest I can find to the reddit source mentioned: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/lp2jc8/legend_lost_sector_exotic_engram_glitch/

Is there a way of looking up deleted reddit posts? The dtg mods seem to have wiped it.

Ceddit and removeddit both exist but I think you need the original post URL. Never used either.

Bobby Deluxe
May 9, 2004

this changes nothing, i am still dead inside

SkyeAuroline posted:

Ceddit and removeddit both exist but I think you need the original post URL. Never used either.

https://www.removeddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/lp2jc8/legend_lost_sector_exotic_engram_glitch/

Hmm, doesn't seem incredibly useful. Fill your engram slots, go do the easiest lost sector a bunch, wait until a day when the rewards are for the armour slot you want, cash in the exotics from the postmaster on that day.

Interesting that postmaster engrams seem to be determined on the day you decrypt them rather than when they drop. I wonder if you could take advantage of this by stockpiling pinnacles until after you get past the 1300 cap and then cashing them in?


Nelson Mandingo posted:

There is still incentive to go flawless and win but now everyone can get loot if they're persistent enough. And really, that makes a lot of sense to me.
This is one of the things I have had the biggest problem with in Destiny, is when they announce a cool thing like the raid areas or the story behind it, but you can't chill and explore it or get the lore without grouping up and doing the hardcore endgame encounters.

I really liked in D1 when they set the House of Wolves quest in VoG and the Taken King level that was set in Crota's End. I got to see two of the raid areas which were arguably the coolest areas in the game. I didn't do the raids regularly when they came out, but I did get to look round those areas eventually, which was cool.

The point I was getting round to was that I hate the attitude that you have to do the super hardcore mode, or you don't get to experience it at all. There should be super sweaty difficulty modes, and those modes should come with cosmetics or titles or armor sets so those players can show off their skill. But at least lay off hiding the lore and the story in there.

I accept that playing solo or playing casually, it's going to take me longer to get there. That's fine. I accept that I'm not going to get the shaders, or the prestige titles, or the sparrow or ship or cool robes.

I'm ok with highly skilled players getting to show off that they attained the cool thing, like back in D1 when nightfalls were difficult and you got the glow for completing them.

But the problem is when I'm trying to play crucible or gambit and I keep getting killed by meta guns that you can only get from the raid or trials, then it's a problem that is impacting the main game. When my guardian is unable to complete the storyline or fill in the blanks on what's going on because I can't raid, that is also a problem.

In theory my guardian didn't kill Oryx. Not permenantly, because I never got past the warpriest.

Raiders, honestly - given the choice between an extra armour piece/shader to grind for or a lore tab, which would you choose? And furthermore would you really begrudge lower level players getting the lore on easy mode if it took them longer to do it?

I am of the opinion that there should never be any content that's for super sweaty players only. There should always be a route so casual players can grind for the loot and get it eventually, and hardcore players can do a tougher version that makes it quicker to get or gives unique cosmetics.

Giving players who are better at the game guns that give them an advantage over weaker players also makes no goddamn sense from a balance perspective.

Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Feb 23, 2021

Roctavian
Feb 23, 2011



Left-field idea: what if Trials was a 3 v 6 mode, and you could choose to play on 3 person teams (for the sweats, kinda equivalent to running Master or Grandmaster difficulty missions) or on 6 person teams (for the rest of us). Everybody has access to the same loot but the drop rate is higher for the "higher difficulty" of playing on a small team. The challenge is quantitatively and qualitatively different for the people who want an end-game activity, and lower-skill players get to participate in the challenge.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007




I feel like anything would be more interesting then "its just pvp with win streak rewards and you must make a team, but also light is enabled so it's not really a skill thing"

SgtSteel91
Oct 21, 2010



Roctavian posted:

Left-field idea: what if Trials was a 3 v 6 mode, and you could choose to play on 3 person teams (for the sweats, kinda equivalent to running Master or Grandmaster difficulty missions) or on 6 person teams (for the rest of us). Everybody has access to the same loot but the drop rate is higher for the "higher difficulty" of playing on a small team. The challenge is quantitatively and qualitatively different for the people who want an end-game activity, and lower-skill players get to participate in the challenge.

I'd make it so that you need to be in a fireteam for the 3 man team and the 6 man team is only matchmaking, because otherwise you have a 6-stack bulldozing trials

Scyantific
Feb 13, 2011



While we're at it let's make Grandmasters have unlimited revives and allow us to 6 stack them, surely that will entice more casuals into trying them (until they get ran by a red bar Vandal).

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Oxyclean posted:

I feel like anything would be more interesting then "its just pvp with win streak rewards and you must make a team, but also light is enabled so it's not really a skill thing"

Do you really think that Light matters in Trial after like week 2?

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007




I'm only just starting to get 1290 drops, and I'm by no means casual.

But it's kind of the ethos of it. Kind of feel like the whole nature of it is supposed to be about who's better at the game, not whose spent more time grinding or has the better guns.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


But like, once you're at 4-5+ wins on a card it is about who is better at the game

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

On console

PC trials is just who's got the Infinite 1kv mode activated, sadly

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007




Eej posted:

But like, once you're at 4-5+ wins on a card it is about who is better at the game

hmm, nah.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Are you being constantly 2 tapped by 120 HCs or taking 3 melee hits to kill someone at 4-5+ wins then?

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007




I'm not sure why you're defending the fact light is enabled if it apparently doesn't matter on the high end. It's a dumb thing that undercuts the messaged intention of the mode.

Like, I will never not be cynical about calling a pvp mode in destiny competitive or skill based when it's a game with grindy rng loot loadouts. Like, oh sure, it's almost certainly 90-95% skill in the long run, but I just can't take it seriously, doubly so when you can have situations where players literally just have a raw numbers advantage because they grinded their power out a bit faster / sooner.

RBX
Jan 2, 2011



How the hell are you getting 4-5 wins at 1270/1280 something light while everyone else is 1300+

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Week 1 it was pretty normal to hit flawless at around 1280 because that's what most people were at and the occasional teams of 1300 didn't naturally dominate those lower. It does help that Altar of Flame is a sniper friendly map which mitigates light difference as long as you can click on heads. This weekend if you're 1280 you're kind of boned because Exodus Blue is a horrible map, everyone's already 1300 and shotguns are very sensitive to light differences and really good on the map and also every single sweaty person was out in droves farming Adept Igneous Hammers.

Oxyclean posted:

I'm not sure why you're defending the fact light is enabled if it apparently doesn't matter on the high end. It's a dumb thing that undercuts the messaged intention of the mode.

Like, I will never not be cynical about calling a pvp mode in destiny competitive or skill based when it's a game with grindy rng loot loadouts. Like, oh sure, it's almost certainly 90-95% skill in the long run, but I just can't take it seriously, doubly so when you can have situations where players literally just have a raw numbers advantage because they grinded their power out a bit faster / sooner.

Light enabled PvP is stupid but it's one of their intended goals of "Trials is the epitome of what you can do in PvP in this game and light reflects that" or whatever they said. It does have the side effect of rotating guns out of the meta (goodbye Felwinter's) so they're probably keeping it around. It doesn't matter on the high end because even lazy me got to 1300 at the start of week 2 by just doing most of my pinnacles across three characters. The raw numbers advantage only exists for like 1 week out of 13? for most people who care about the mode. The stinginess of rewards for losses is the real killer of the mode.

Arkage
Aug 10, 2008

Things fall apart;
the centre cannot hold


Meanwhile back to how fun PVE is

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DifficultNeatKookaburra-mobile.mp4

Discospawn
Mar 3, 2007



Just a reminder that Eej is the biggest Bungie apologist in this thread and will intentionally fail to comprehend posts' meaning or refuse to think critically about anything Destiny related. You could replace every one of their posts with, "You're wrong, Bungie is doing the right thing and Destiny 2 is better for it," and not miss anything meaningful.

Majere
Oct 22, 2005


Trials should only be held once, at the end of the season. With BIG PRIZES.

Mill Village
Jul 27, 2007




Every enemy is Taken now.

Discospawn
Mar 3, 2007



World's First Trials Flawless Run! (Trials ends immediately after, statues of the 3 guardians of the fireteam are displayed in the Tower all of next season).

On another note, I guess today's update & hotfix is causing some troubles. It's weird because the patch notes just casually list the missing strike as being released with all the other little fixes (lots of "players were receiving more X than intended" changes).

Majere
Oct 22, 2005


"Changed XP reward icon on the Quest Details screen to match XP icon used throughout the rest of the game."

I know this is petty, but it just reinforces my theory that there are at least 12 people who work on the UI, but they have never played the game or talked to each other about what they are doing. Seriously, is there any UI screen that is consistent?

"oh ya already made an XP icon? i had no idea...i just grabbed one off google images"

Mazerunner
Apr 22, 2010

Good Hunter, what... what is this post?


Majere posted:

"Changed XP reward icon on the Quest Details screen to match XP icon used throughout the rest of the game."

I know this is petty, but it just reinforces my theory that there are at least 12 people who work on the UI, but they have never played the game or talked to each other about what they are doing. Seriously, is there any UI screen that is consistent?

"oh ya already made an XP icon? i had no idea...i just grabbed one off google images"

I also don't like how navigating menus and looking at items is sometimes left click, sometimes right click, sometimes the interact/use button

like, now you can right click to examine questlines, cool, but to view the seasonal challenges, literally right above them on the same page, it's left click!

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my buddy Superfly
Feb 28, 2011




Having done that quest for the first time last night I have zero regrets cheesing that fight by popping down, hitting them with witherhoard and then jumping back up to the second floor. What a terrible arena to fight someone who will constantly attempt to physics kill you.

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