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No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


sushibandit posted:

Chong is good because he provides cryo infusion with his elemental skill, which has a low downtime, and his burst can actually do respectable damage.
Cryo infusion is good because pyro is the objectively strongest element, pyro+cryo=melt, melts are :bigdamage: and bigger numbers make brain go "aww yiss".
He's also got a great character design/aesthetic, if you care about that in a waifu/husbando collector game.
IIRC he's the top-tier support for Diluc comps (alongside Xingqiu), which many early players use since Diluc is a braindead-simple and powerful pyro DPS.

In theory Kaeya could accomplish very nearly the same thing against everything but solo bosses with no adds, but you really need constellations and those are drat near impossible to get on him.

Also I'm now curious as to the other 10 you didn't mention by name.

All of them are good in various ways or in specific scenarios. From the lengthy conversation earlier, Keq is only suboptimal in comparison to other 5* carries and a couple of hilariously broken 4* characters. Is she bad? No. She's just not the best. You'd still gladly take her if you had no other 5*s.
He's not used with Diluc much anymore. It's too hard to ult on CD with him as the only cryo character in the comp without running Sac GS + energy recharge and gimping his damage. The only comp he's generally used in is Chongyun/Bennett/Xiangling/Xingqiu, which for whatever reason is one of the most played comps in China (and it's not just for budgetary reasons). My issue with that comp is that Diluc is better than Chongyun in it.

As for who the other ten characters are:



All of them have below 10% play rate on this chart. But I think two of the characters with <10% play rate are very good.

Boris Galerkin posted:

I donít think Iím gonna get Zhongli, and I havenít invested in a geo character yet so I guess I should do that. Whoís more versatile/gonna help me out the most? Ningguang (idk C1 or C2, whichever the first good constellation is), Noelle (C6), or Albedo? Main DPS are Klee and Hu Tao (and Venti), with standard Benny XQ supports and Qiqi.
I think Zhong Li is often overrated but he's really, really good with Hu Tao. Albedo is the only one of the three you listed that would fit into your current comps.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 14:11 on May 4, 2021

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Mailer
Nov 4, 2009

Have you accepted The Void as your lord and savior?


Reiterpallasch posted:

alright there's like a lot of people making this same argument, so i'm willing to accept that i'm possibly the insane one in this conversation, but i seriously don't get it. why is it unreasonable to say that keqing is bad because she's by far the least effective 5* unit, in a game that makes you pay real money or unreal amounts of time for 5* units?

I'm hear you, and I get it, but just give up. There is no logic. This is anime town.

AshtonDragon
Sep 5, 2011



I'm always surprised to see Beidou so low on usage charts. She's so powerful, and has one of the best designs in the game, too. If they wind up going through with buffing reactions besides Melt and Vaporize, I wonder if she'll go up.

I suppose it doesn't help that she still hasn't shown up in any story capacity. Xinyan suffers from that too, but it seems to be pretty hard to make her work well.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


I do think Beidou is weaker in this abyss (certainly weaker than the last one where she was beyond excellent). She can't hurt the abyss lector shields and the electro cicin mage is a giant problem given that running another electro with her is basically mandatory. She can make the mimics flinch which is good but vaporizing or freezing them is even better.

Araganzar
May 24, 2003

Needs more cowbell!

Fun Shoe

Every human being has a different bar for what is unpleasant, unacceptable, or unfavorable. Arguing about whether or not a character makes it over your personal bar is pointless. Before you can do that you have to ask people to set their bars where yours are, which practically no one is going to do, in fact it's a hill many people are quite willing to die on. People's preferences for the difficulty of various game tasks are even more variant and subjective. Given that, it's advisable to have a little bit of either perspective or empathy and not challenge people when they express an opinion that "x is bad", regardless of their connotation, their resolve, or the support they give their argument.

Andrast
Apr 21, 2010




Mailer posted:

I'm hear you, and I get it, but just give up. There is no logic. This is anime town.

or maybe people just have different standards of bad

AParadox
Jan 7, 2012


No Wave posted:

He's not used with Diluc much anymore. It's too hard to ult on CD with him as the only cryo character in the comp without running Sac GS + energy recharge and gimping his damage. The only comp he's generally used in is Chongyun/Bennett/Xiangling/Xingqiu, which for whatever reason is one of the most played comps in China (and it's not just for budgetary reasons). My issue with that comp is that Diluc is better than Chongyun in it.

As for who the other ten characters are:



All of them have below 10% play rate on this chart. But I think two of the characters with <10% play rate are very good.

I think Zhong Li is often overrated but he's really, really good with Hu Tao. Albedo is the only one of the three you listed that would fit into your current comps.

This is just data of day 1 of patch 1.5 in CN but it's still funny to see diluc barely above 10%, people are moving on to other stuff just for sake of novelty. I'm sure he'll bounce back as the day pass.

I wonder how xiao players avoid getting killed all the time, I remember playing him on a friends account and felt his plunge spam leave him extremely vulnerable, I can't imagine doing 12-2-2 with him. I assume the answer is zhongli.

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?



Andrast posted:

or maybe people just have different standards of bad

I still use Lisa and Amber because I got them first and the less grinding I have to do the better.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


AParadox posted:

This is just data of day 1 of patch 1.5 in CN but it's still funny to see diluc barely above 10%, people are moving on to other stuff just for sake of novelty. I'm sure he'll bounce back as the day pass.

I wonder how xiao players avoid getting killed all the time, I remember playing him on a friends account and felt his plunge spam leave him extremely vulnerable, I can't imagine doing 12-2-2 with him. I assume the answer is zhongli.
Hu Tao and Diluc both basically require Xingqiu. So if you own both, it's one or the other and one of them is newer and stronger.

The character who imo has had the biggest fall recently is Fischl, largely due to Zhong Li just being the better rando off-field character (Fischl's previously high inclusion rate was in slots that people didn't really know what to do with).

MajorBonnet
May 28, 2009

How did I get here?


AParadox posted:

This is just data of day 1 of patch 1.5 in CN but it's still funny to see diluc barely above 10%, people are moving on to other stuff just for sake of novelty. I'm sure he'll bounce back as the day pass.

I wonder how xiao players avoid getting killed all the time, I remember playing him on a friends account and felt his plunge spam leave him extremely vulnerable, I can't imagine doing 12-2-2 with him. I assume the answer is zhongli.

Yeah, I usually pair him with Zhongli and either Jean or Qiqi. I feel the same way with Ganyu, though. Trying to get off a charged shot with no shield in the Abyss is a pain in the rear end.

ButterSkeleton
Jan 19, 2020

"Cis white guys shouldn't educate themselves on epilepsy" is a unique thesis statement, I'll give you that.

Very few characters are truly "bad" but there's definitely characters that are way better than others and for very definitive reasons. Keqing is limited in potential due to being Electro, and that's the elements fault.

Garrand
Dec 28, 2012




The Atomic Man-Boy posted:

The only good characters are the waifus, the men who look like waifus, and the kid who plays with bombs.

I need Yaoyao to get released so I can build my Nezuko squad


I mean, I also need to get Qiqi and Klee, but still.

Araganzar
May 24, 2003

Needs more cowbell!

Fun Shoe

ButterSkeleton posted:

Very few characters are truly "bad" but there's definitely characters that are way better than others and for very definitive reasons. Keqing is limited in potential due to being Electro, and that's the elements fault.

Yes, it's important to remember that the real villain here is Electro for being the Ringo Starr of the elements.

AParadox
Jan 7, 2012


this are the most popular teams of that graph btw



The only intreresting part is the xiangling chongyun team, the rest is ganyus hu taos and xiaos all the way.

No Wave posted:

Hu Tao and Diluc both basically require Xingqiu. So if you own both, it's one or the other and one of them is newer and stronger.

The character who imo has had the biggest fall recently is Fischl, largely due to Zhong Li just being the better rando off-field character (Fischl's previously high inclusion rate was in slots that people didn't really know what to do with).

Makes sense, I just expected to many more people to have diluc rather than hu tao.

As for fish, she has the same problem as beidou, in the current floor 12 you can't use electro on the top floor and on the bottom floor you either go full electro and use vv to deal with the e cicin mage or do not include them at all.

Sanya Juutilainen
Jun 19, 2019

Every slur offends someone and people will just rebrand other words to slurs / potentially offensive meanings (see also: gay, trap) which will then get banned, eventually at some point the language will run out of words.


at some point the language will run out of words.

The problem is people arguing are arguing about two separate things.

One is: "Keqing is not bad, because overall she's fun and she's usable in 99 % places"
The other is: "Keqing is not in Top 10 in 1 % of the game's content that many don't even care about, therefore she bad"

Based on which player you are, she's bad or not bad. To me she's not bad - but I don't care about using ZL to get three extra stars in 12, or something.

SynthesisAlpha
Jun 19, 2007
Cyber-Monocle sporting Space Billionaire

I mean Keqing is fun and her + Xingqiu burst gets stormterror to ~20% on the first phase so the dps feels fine. That's probably more the water swords but whatever.

More importantly she has cute hair and says "Cut to the chase" when you use her burst. And she does a super hero landing if you don't activate the last hit of her attack sequence.

Cao Ni Ma
May 25, 2010


Fish is still very strong its just that you have to build the comp in very specific ways which includes very specific gear. I dont see a whole lot of people opting into turbo setups because of the gearing requirements.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


I don't think there's any specific gear needed, overload comps are just very weak with the current layout due to electro shields on 12-3-1 and enemies that you'll blow all over the place on 12-1-1, 12-1-2, 12-2-1, and 12-3-2.

Cao Ni Ma
May 25, 2010


No Wave posted:

I don't think there's any specific gear needed, overload comps are just very weak with the current layout due to electro shields on 12-3-1 and enemies that you'll blow all over the place on 12-1-1, 12-1-2, 12-2-1, and 12-3-2.

You aren't bringing her just for the overload damage in the reaction, you are bringing her for the energy generation. The specific gear in this case is full offense stats without any energy in them, that lets constantly pull bursts. On certain characters its pretty drat strong, but it requires perfect gear.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012






I found an HP goblet with fantastic subsets but does anyone in the world want an HP goblet instead of like element or physical boost?

Atk 4.7
Def 5.1
En recharge 5.8
Cr rate 3.9

dogsicle
Oct 23, 2012



Fischl turbo is already in their list of bugs to be killed in future patches along with supervape, unless they got that one already

Flair
Apr 5, 2016


Cao Ni Ma posted:

Fish is still very strong its just that you have to build the comp in very specific ways which includes very specific gear. I dont see a whole lot of people opting into turbo setups because of the gearing requirements.

Turbo has been nerfed/patched out. Nonetheless, Fischl's other problem is that her DPS is mostly single target, and this abyss has way more enemies than before which is why Venti's usage has significantly increased this patch. With this day 1 information, we are only seeing electro for second half which I assume are to deal with the hydro mimics.

RareAcumen posted:

I found an HP goblet with fantastic subsets but does anyone in the world want an HP goblet instead of like element or physical boost?

Atk 4.7
Def 5.1
En recharge 5.8
Cr rate 3.9

If you want a character to be a shield bot or whose damage scales with HP, then that goblet might be worth it. Even then, those kinds of goblets are dependent on a set bonus i.e. a late game Diona would probably have a NO 4 piece set to serve as an attack buffer and healing gets less important as you learn how to dodge and just kill the enemies before they deal damage to you.

dogsicle posted:

Fischl turbo is already in their list of bugs to be killed in future patches along with supervape, unless they got that one already

https://genshin.mihoyo.com/en/news/detail/12376 Yes

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Unless you were using Venti the vast majority of the bird triggered reactions would only hit one enemy. I don't think Fischl energy recharge comps are substantively worse, and it always was kind of a gag because it generates extra electro particles but you needed Fischl to trigger reactions so she had to be the only electro if you were leaning into it entirely, meaning you're generating particles that aren't useful for the rest of your units in the first place (and keep in mind that the whole concept was undermined by having a C6 Fischl anyways). Even back then the most successful overload comps tended to use Beidou which kind of throws the turbo aspect out the window in favor of an extremely powerful 4*.

kater
Nov 16, 2010



Fishcl isnít single target because overload isnít single target itís like the opposite of single target.




oh abyss whgo even does that, i meant azdjdaha.

kater
Nov 16, 2010



Albedo is pretty bad tbh.

AParadox
Jan 7, 2012


No Wave posted:

Unless you were using Venti the vast majority of the bird triggered reactions would only hit one enemy. I don't think Fischl energy recharge comps are substantively worse, and it always was kind of a gag because it generates extra electro particles but you needed Fischl to trigger reactions so she had to be the only electro if you were leaning into it entirely, meaning you're generating particles that aren't useful for the rest of your units in the first place (and keep in mind that the whole concept was undermined by having a C6 Fischl anyways). Even back then the most successful overload comps tended to use Beidou which kind of throws the turbo aspect out the window in favor of an extremely powerful 4*.

Does beidou have some hidden mechanic like her ult can bounce on the same target several times or something like that? I've put some decent investment into her after hearing she can be good, 1700 atk 60 crt 150+ cdamage, 61 mult + serpent spine with ult talent 8 and I'm very disappointed with her single target damage. I feel like I'm missing something about her.

Flair
Apr 5, 2016


No Wave posted:

He's not used with Diluc much anymore. It's too hard to ult on CD with him as the only cryo character in the comp without running Sac GS + energy recharge and gimping his damage. The only comp he's generally used in is Chongyun/Bennett/Xiangling/Xingqiu, which for whatever reason is one of the most played comps in China (and it's not just for budgetary reasons). My issue with that comp is that Diluc is better than Chongyun in it.

As for who the other ten characters are:



All of them have below 10% play rate on this chart. But I think two of the characters with <10% play rate are very good.

I think Zhong Li is often overrated but he's really, really good with Hu Tao. Albedo is the only one of the three you listed that would fit into your current comps.

To supplement this image,





Tanreall
Apr 27, 2004

Did I mention I was gay for pirate ducks?

~SMcD

Strong disagree on Chongyun being bad. I use him as support for my Bennett carry and he's amazing. I got 36 stars on the new abyss as a F2P (no welkin, no BP) with a Bennett, Chongyun, XQ, Sucrose as my Team A.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


AParadox posted:

Does beidou have some hidden mechanic like her ult can bounce on the same target several times or something like that? I've put some decent investment into her after hearing she can be good, 1700 atk 60 crt 150+ cdamage, 61 mult + serpent spine with ult talent 8 and I'm very disappointed with her single target damage. I feel like I'm missing something about her.
Single target she sucks. But vs 2 targets or more her C2 increases her ult damage by 66%, as yes it can bounce from target A to target B then back to target A (and then, with C2, it would go back to target B then target A again).

Her strongest role is as a support that Qs and leaves, most comparable to Xingqiu.

kater
Nov 16, 2010



More interested in a list of teams on floor 12 on the last night of a rotation than the first. Oh wait thatís what it isssss whooo zhongli confirmed ultimate scrub tier forever.

Hexel
Nov 18, 2011



does that morgana comp use 4 blizzard or 2 bliz and 2 gladiator on ganyu?

Soothing Vapors
Mar 26, 2006

Associate Justice Lena "Kegels" Dunham: An uncool thought to have: 'is that guy walking in the dark behind me a rapist? Never mind, he's Asian.

RareAcumen posted:

I found an HP goblet with fantastic subsets but does anyone in the world want an HP goblet instead of like element or physical boost?

Atk 4.7
Def 5.1
En recharge 5.8
Cr rate 3.9

you could see how it feels on Zhongli, but even my full support 45k zhongli uses a geo goblet

kater posted:

Albedo is pretty bad tbh.

lol

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


RareAcumen posted:

I found an HP goblet with fantastic subsets but does anyone in the world want an HP goblet instead of like element or physical boost?

Atk 4.7
Def 5.1
En recharge 5.8
Cr rate 3.9
Favonious Bow Diona is the best HP goblet + crit rate substat user atm. I use crit rate helmet, ER sands, hp goblet.

Space Opera
Jun 5, 2011

That rabbit's got a vicious streak a mile wide! It's a killer!

I might not be a fan of the event domain challenges, but I sure am making the most out of its ult charge ability to finish achievements/time challenges.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin.

Reiterpallasch posted:

ok but keqing's a 5* damage dealer who's currently worse at her job than 4* units, including several at very modest constellations, which is as good a definition of a mechanical flop as you can get. some characters really are better than others and "no character is bad" really just seems like semantic quibbling at that point.

I think part of it is that she just can't do anything to compete with the nuts damage you can get from stuff like vaporize/melt. My Keqing has stats that should be very good on paper and possibly has the best rolled artifacts of anyone I have (95% crit rate and ~150% crit damage) but a bunch of physical hits for ~3000-5000 damage still can't really compete with doing a few Hu Tao charged attacked that hit for like 30,000.

Bloody Emissary
Mar 30, 2014

Powawa~n


No Wave posted:

The only comp he's generally used in is Chongyun/Bennett/Xiangling/Xingqiu, which for whatever reason is one of the most played comps in China (and it's not just for budgetary reasons). My issue with that comp is that Diluc is better than Chongyun in it.

  • At C2, Chongyun lowers the cooldown of skills and bursts by 15%. For obvious reasons, this is hella good with Xingqiu and Xiangling, but it also means Bennett's burst will have less than one second of downtime if you can get his energy back before its cooldown ends.
  • His first ascension passive makes melee characters' normal attacks 8% faster while they're standing in his field. I'd have to check, but I assume this makes his attacks fast enough that he doesn't have a significant delay on Raincutter hits (like most claymore characters do) so swinging away with him is less of a DPS loss.
  • His second ascension passive has a useful interaction with Sacrificial Greatsword. The passive makes his field drop a Cryo-resist-lowering sword when its duration ends, but if you use his skill before the duration of the field is over, the new field replaces the old one and the sword drops instantly. You can use this to lower enemies' Cryo resist right when you switch him back in to use his burst.
  • Frozen, which is of course triggered by normal attacks within the Cryo field + Raincutter, reapplies Cryo to the Frozen enemy. This means Frozen enemies can be Melted with Bennett's skill (which should have a 1.7 sec cooldown while you're in both fields), Guoba, or Xiangling's burst.
  • The hit of Bennet's burst applies Pyro strongly enough that you can use it to get a Melt reaction on all three hits of Chongyun's burst.

kater posted:

Albedo is pretty bad tbh.

The resist debuff from Zhongli's shield makes his blossoms crit for 10k for me now. He's a p. great support for everything except bosses.

Getting C1 Zhongli let me make a fun discovery, which is that stele resonance will trigger the blossoms if it hits an enemy. Setting steles on either side of his flower covers enough of the flower's AoE that I'm liable to hit some enemy with resonance, which means that juicy 10k is less likely to be wasted on the last sliver of HP on whatever I'm pummeling with melee attacks at the time.

Bloody Emissary fucked around with this message at 17:11 on May 4, 2021

AParadox
Jan 7, 2012


No Wave posted:

Single target she sucks. But vs 2 targets or more her C2 increases her ult damage by 66%, as yes it can bounce from target A to target B then back to target A (and then, with C2, it would go back to target B then target A again).

Her strongest role is as a support that Qs and leaves, most comparable to Xingqiu.

Yeah that what I've been doing and I have her c2, I just never seen it bounce back, I'm not sure if it's the bounce range or It's just gets lost in the sea of numbers that keqing and fish generate. I'll give her another go.

Speaking of overloads. I've tried a no gear Yanfei with a fed fish + albedo supports and it felt great, I think there is a decent potential with overload yanfei teams and 1.6 reaction buffs. Also her attack chain feels so smooth compared to other catalyst users.

Detheros
Apr 11, 2010

Great!




Hi, Level 90 10/10/10 Klee main here. I've never made it past 11-3 because Spiral Abyss sucks rear end with all it's anti-fun mechanics.

Also don't use characters for if they're good, use them if they're cute.

Flair
Apr 5, 2016


Hexel posted:

does that morgana comp use 4 blizzard or 2 bliz and 2 gladiator on ganyu?

Ganyu has 4-piece. The idea is that Mona and Venti keep everything constantly frozen, and Mona's attack buff allows Ganyu to hit like she is doing reverse melt DPS while having the CC of a freeze team. So

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U-DO Burger
Nov 12, 2007






i like keqing because she's my first 5* and she also has a stylish moveset and she is also a cute catgirl

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