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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Not to mention a parent in a sports/game media to be supportive and caring but not overbearing while still being flawed.. Yeah, I don't know if this was something this show was doing or just something I was bringing to it, but every dynamic Beth had with an adult made me super uncomfortable. I was waiting for every one of them to exploit or hurt her for the first several episodes. For Alma, I kept expecting her to go full "lovely stage mom" with it, try to monopolize Beth's money or push her into things she didn't want to do for fame or profit. I also thought Allston, her husband, was some kind of child molester when he was introduced, and I kept waiting for something creepy and awful to happen to Beth at the orphanage in general. So glad I was wrong; I think I've watched way too many serious TV dramas in the last year involving physical or sexual abuse and trauma.
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Dec 8, 2020 09:50
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Xealot posted:Yeah, I don't know if this was something this show was doing or just something I was bringing to it, but every dynamic Beth had with an adult made me super uncomfortable. I was waiting for every one of them to exploit or hurt her for the first several episodes. I was also expecting the whole "rape and/or abuse" as a character device the whole front half of the series. I was very pleasantly surprised they never went that way.
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Dec 8, 2020 16:39
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I think the mom was handled really well, they did almost tease it like she was going to end up using Beth to make money and support her drinking, and that could have turned out really abusive. But then there was that moment where she asks Beth "Can I have 10% as a commission?!" and its just so sweet, and you realize she's not going to take advantage of her after all. Probably helps that it was based on a true story, so they had some real-life inspiration and didn't go the fully cliched hollywood tropes route.
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Dec 8, 2020 18:10
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Zaphod42 posted:
The show is adapted from a novel published in the 80s. It’s not based on a true story.
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Dec 8, 2020 18:27
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OldSenileGuy posted:The show is adapted from a novel published in the 80s. It’s not based on a true story. Oh. Lame. Well, 80s writing then, less hollywood cliches than today still.
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Dec 8, 2020 18:30
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Jows posted:I was also expecting the whole "rape and/or abuse" as a character device the whole front half of the series. I was very pleasantly surprised they never went that way. Yeah when Beth first gets picked up by the adoptive couple, the way the husband is eyeing her through the rear view mirror made me think "uh oh". But then you realize later he was just sizing her up as a companion for the wife he was going to leave. I don't know to what degree it's discussed in the book, but it seems pretty obvious that the reason Mr. Shaibel is apparently forbidden by the orphanage not only from playing chess with Beth but even talking to her or acknowledging her once their chess playing sessions were discovered has nothing to do with chess. He's obviously suspected of pedo shenanigans or they want at least to avoid any appearance of such. So yeah, when she first goes into the dank basement to check out what the old man is doing, it did not seem like a good situation.
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Dec 8, 2020 18:37
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I never got any sense of impropriety from Mr Shaibel. Beth first gets introduced to chess because a teacher sends her to the basement to clean the board erasers. That doesn't happen if there's rumors swirling around about Mr Shaibel. There's also a scene where Beth is eating chocolate in the basement telling him about the chess matches at the high school that happens after Deardorff finds out about him teaching her chess. It's only after Beth ODs on the tranquilizers that she gets banned from playing chess completely (not just with Mr. Shaibel) and their relationship changes. Also (last couple episodes spoiler) if there were any suspicions it'd be incredibly negligent for Deardorff not to report/fire him in general but especially with him pinning Beth articles on a board in the basement. College Rockout fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Dec 9, 2020 |
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Dec 9, 2020 03:00
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College Rockout posted:I never got any sense of impropriety from Mr Shaibel. Beth first gets introduced to chess because a teacher sends her to the basement to clean the board erasers. That doesn't happen if there's rumors swirling around about Mr Shaibel. There's also a scene where Beth is eating chocolate in the basement telling him about the chess matches at the high school that happens after Deardorff finds out about him teaching her chess. It's only after Beth ODs on the tranquilizers that she gets banned from playing chess completely (not just with Mr. Shaibel) and their relationship changes. That's right, I forgot that sequence of events. Never mind. I didn't suspect Shaibel of anything. I was thinking more that's what the orphanage reaction was based on, but you're right. That scene of kid Beth happily gloating about how she crushed all the high schoolers with chocolate smeared all over her face made me laugh.
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Dec 9, 2020 04:46
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The orphanage is another great example of the show willing to have some depth and complexity. It would be really easy to just make the orphanage an unquestionably evil place filled with unredeemable monsters (except for Mr. Shaibel). But the show doesn't really do that - the orphanage is a bad place, sure, but you get the sense that the lady in charge does care for the kids in some sense, while being super misguided and a product of the times. It's not a good place, but it's inhabited by real people - flawed, but not just completely horrible in every way.
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Dec 9, 2020 13:00
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It wasn't even out of the norm, tranqing kids in orphanages was pretty much standard practice in the 50s. Some of the stuff sounded shady though it was never addressed. The orphanage paying the couple per month for Beth made me wonder if it wasn't some scam to begin with. The orphanage gets money per kid from the state, if a kid gets chosen its an under the table adoption and the orphanage still gets money for the kid being there. The orphanage splits some of it with the family.
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Dec 9, 2020 16:36
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Yea I think everybody got nervous when the tranquilizers were first introduced and were expecting the worst. It was a nice surprise to see that the people in charge were seemingly decent people trying their best. Mr Shaibel loaning her the money for her first tournament and then Beth revealing that she never paid him back was heartbreaking. He was so proud of her and she never got back in touch 
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Dec 9, 2020 22:51
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I was surprised she asked Mr Shaibel for the money and not the high school chess teacher guy. You'd think he'd be more likely to recognize how good her chances were to win, and would have possibly more money. But I guess its better for the story this way.
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Dec 9, 2020 23:02
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This show basically didn’t have a cynical bone in it’s whole body the entire way through and it was honestly better for it. At every turn I was expecting Beth to get abused or poo poo on by the chess players for her gender. Instead her adoptive father is a poo poo for entirely different reasons and the vast majority of players she met were ultimately extremely helpful if socially awkward as all hell. College Rockout posted:Yea I think everybody got nervous when the tranquilizers were first introduced and were expecting the worst. It was a nice surprise to see that the people in charge were seemingly decent people trying their best. Zaphod42 posted:I was surprised she asked Mr Shaibel for the money and not the high school chess teacher guy. You'd think he'd be more likely to recognize how good her chances were to win, and would have possibly more money. But I guess its better for the story this way. I got my names mixed up hard here and thought she asked the dad for money for the tournament initially. Mr Shaibel really was the best dad she ever had.
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Dec 12, 2020 07:44
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I got laid in the past few days and my wife recommended this to me by word of mouth so I binged it while recovering. Fantastic series. It became very emotional for me towards the end, and I lost it at the part where she revisits Shaibel's room and finds the wall. I just lost it completely. You can tell whoever was directing this had an affinity with strong faces much like Jean-Pierre Jeunet in many of his movies. The meticulous framing of just Beth's amazing sculpted face took up a good 20% of the film or more. Only VERY minor nitpicks, I felt this should have been around 5 episodes, as the constant flashbacks to the suicidal mother didn't really bring enough to the overall story other than to show why Beth was questioning her own sanity. Her alcoholic breakdowns became too routine, which I guess, ultimately paid off for the Russian tournament because she was essentially locked down from messing everything up - so the Russian's strictness was their own undoing. The exception of the seemingly seven-year-old offering her vodka at the hotel's restaurant seemed out of place because her guard wasn't with her. I also find it hard to believe they would not have gone through every inch of her belongings and found her pills when she landed. The entire Townse relationship could have been spelled out clearer I guess. I loved the final tournament. It was completely satisfying. It was really cute to see all the old men at the very end rally around her and one of them wanting her to play.
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Dec 23, 2020 18:42
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Philthy posted:I got laid in the past few days and my wife recommended this to me by word of mouth so I binged it while recovering. Did you miss the word "off" here? Because lmao
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Dec 23, 2020 23:20
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Why can't it be both. 
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Dec 24, 2020 01:14
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Zaphod42 posted:Did you miss the word "off" here? Because lmao Philthy posted:I got
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Dec 24, 2020 01:31
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Philthy posted:
I'm pretty sure her guard was CIA, not working the Russians. He didn't want her to drink because he was concerned about her becoming compromised in some way. I also felt like her being offered vodka was intended to be intentional. The Russian players may have wanted to beat her fair, but the government probably had a file on her and would happily exploit character weaknesses so their people could win. I assumed the same thing when the pills were in such a prominent place in her room. I might be reading too much into the cold war aspects though.
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Dec 24, 2020 05:57
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Zaphod42 posted:Did you miss the word "off" here? Because lmao  holy crap. laid-in is what I meantwhooooops Lemony posted:I'm pretty sure her guard was CIA, not working the Russians. He didn't want her to drink because he was concerned about her becoming compromised in some way. Yeah, it just seemed he wanted to be by her side at all times and would have refused the vodka for her during that scene is all. I have no doubt they were intentionally trying to get her drunk. quote:I also felt like her being offered vodka was intended to be intentional. The Russian players may have wanted to beat her fair, but the government probably had a file on her and would happily exploit character weaknesses so their people could win. I assumed the same thing when the pills were in such a prominent place in her room. I might be reading too much into the cold war aspects though. This is also quite believable. "If you find drugs, you leave them be." etc Philthy fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Dec 24, 2020 |
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Dec 24, 2020 07:32
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One thing that bugged me a little bit is that Beth did less research into historical chess greats and the current champions than I would expect of any top chess player. I feel like anyone who gets completely fascinated and immersed in any activity has a desire to learn about the history and lore of that activity, and in the case of current players you have a direct incentive to study their games to help you better form competitive strategies. Although maybe I'm wrong about that, I just looked a a stream of Hikaru Nakamura, one of the top world players, with another popular chess streamer, where they were discussing the various world champs and greats from history and ranking them, and I was shocked that the other guy, who also has a popular chess stream, seemed to be barely familiar with the names or stories of some of the world champs. It really surprised me that a guy who kind of lives and breathes chess had these big gaps in his knowledge of the greats, there haven't been that many world champs and prominent contenders. I really liked the scene in the elevator (Mexico City) where the Russian champ and his retinue come in and don't see Beth and she overhears them talking trash about how she's a lush and how her playing style is limited, and the champ says to not underestimate her, she's an orphan, a survivor like us, for her there is only winning because if she doesn't win what is her life? And yeah Beth finding her bulletin board wall that the handyman/janitor had made was pretty devastating emotionally.
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Dec 24, 2020 08:03
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Zwabu posted:One thing that bugged me a little bit is that Beth did less research into historical chess greats and the current champions than I would expect of any top chess player. I feel like anyone who gets completely fascinated and immersed in any activity has a desire to learn about the history and lore of that activity, and in the case of current players you have a direct incentive to study their games to help you better form competitive strategies. Although maybe I'm wrong about that, I just looked a a stream of Hikaru Nakamura, one of the top world players, with another popular chess streamer, where they were discussing the various world champs and greats from history and ranking them, and I was shocked that the other guy, who also has a popular chess stream, seemed to be barely familiar with the names or stories of some of the world champs. It really surprised me that a guy who kind of lives and breathes chess had these big gaps in his knowledge of the greats, there haven't been that many world champs and prominent contenders. We've seen Beth read plenty of chess books. That's exactly the thing you are describing. Those detail the important games from certain persons in chess notation. She does that a lot, but the series skips over that, because I can barely imagine something less exciting than watching a person sit around reading chess notation.
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Dec 24, 2020 08:46
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Zwabu posted:One thing that bugged me a little bit is that Beth did less research into historical chess greats and the current champions than I would expect of any top chess player.
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Dec 24, 2020 09:51
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I do like the idea of a scene where nothing happens except her staring at such a book and suddenly bursting into tears because it's so beautiful.
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Dec 24, 2020 10:33
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Yeah, there were possibly a dozen or more scenes that revolved around chess books directly. I seem to remember one where Benny specifically told her she needed to also read the books of the current Russians to understand them better and she was reading Borgov's book through the next few scenes. The scene where she found a flaw in one of the grandmaster's strategies that no one else caught had me thinking it was foreshadowing, but I don't believe it was (I don't know if she did that particular move as I don't play chess and wouldn't have recognized it.).
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Dec 24, 2020 18:31
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Also when she has that conversation with Chess Einstein she tells him about how she studied all of his older games.
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Dec 24, 2020 18:43
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Okay I suppose I'm talking more about her not researching the Russian champ when she was the one who had the ambition to play him or become one of the top players, and Benny having to tell her about him. Even if you don't know you're going to play a match against that guy you'd research his games to learn from them. The current world champ will generally represent the strongest play that has been exhibited yet since their play builds upon knowledge gained from previous players, so their games are an essential resource to learn about the strongest ways to play in the present. Also Harry shouldn't have had to tell her stuff about Morphy and his sad end, he's easily the most famous American historical chess figure after Fischer and anyone who's slightly into chess knows about him.
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Dec 24, 2020 18:44
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Zwabu posted:Also Harry shouldn't have had to tell her stuff about Morphy and his sad end, he's easily the most famous American historical chess figure after Fischer and anyone who's slightly into chess knows about him. I think sometimes you need to do things like this for the sake of the viewers, even if it's not perfectly logical. The alternative is for super awkward dialogue like "Oh, do you know about Morphy?" "Oh of course, he's the guy who (go through the whole story)". It's reasonable to assume that Beth knows about him, it's not reasonable to assume that viewers do though, and if you have to sacrifice a bit of realism for the service of what you're trying to get across, so be it.
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Dec 24, 2020 19:13
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Zwabu posted:Okay I suppose I'm talking more about her not researching the Russian champ when she was the one who had the ambition to play him or become one of the top players, and Benny having to tell her about him. Even if you don't know you're going to play a match against that guy you'd research his games to learn from them. The current world champ will generally represent the strongest play that has been exhibited yet since their play builds upon knowledge gained from previous players, so their games are an essential resource to learn about the strongest ways to play in the present. I agree its a bit contrived, but they're going for the whole "she's an intuitive player! She doesn't need to study!!" thing, like her mom was telling her in Mexico. And a big part of her character development is that she's generally blasted through all her opponents so she doesn't really take most of them all that seriously. She's that "lazy genius" trope. Its not until the very end that she actually considers the Russians to be such a huge threat that she'll likely lose and also that she cares enough that its something she really wants. At which point she does study. I do find it funny that they have all the guys of her life come together for a cute scene where they make a phone call to her, explaining all the possible openings they've run through and the ideal responses, and she notes them all down. Then we get to the chess match and oops, he goes off-script. Which means its all on her and she wins without the boys. But I feel bad for them spending hours running all those games and paying who knows how much money for the long distance call and its all completely for naught lmao.
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Dec 24, 2020 21:22
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Are pro chess players allowed to basically cheat and get help from others during adjournments?
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Dec 27, 2020 00:05
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I'm not a chess player at all, but I read somewhere that adjournments in general are a relic that doesn't exist anymore. Now that computers can routinely beat the best human players, adjournments would be a big problem (since instead of 5 people giving you their opinions, a computer just tells you how to win). Long matches are solved by tighter time controls rather than allowing for adjournments.
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Dec 27, 2020 00:21
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I did some reading about the use of seconds in chess (the person, not the time increment), since I wasn't familiar with what exactly their role was. Apparently providing strategic planning during an adjournment was explicitly something you hired them to help with. Presumably wealthier and more successful players might have several people training and consulting in a team, much like the Russians were doing.
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Dec 27, 2020 01:19
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I've dabbled a bit on and off with chess.com for years, and watching the show made me go back to it more frequently, but the one move I always forget about is en passant. It's so specific and used so rarely that it almost feels like cheating when someone pulls it out, like it's a house rule that caught on. It would've been fun to see that as a plot point in one of the major games.
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Dec 27, 2020 03:01
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I played my first ever chess game against a computer. The first 30 moves I wiped the floor, then the next 34 moves were chasing the stupid king around the board and I threw poo poo all over the room. F chess.
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Dec 27, 2020 03:10
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Philthy posted:I played my first ever chess game against a computer. The first 30 moves I wiped the floor, then the next 34 moves were chasing the stupid king around the board and I threw poo poo all over the room. F chess. If it took you that long to chase him then your pieces got wiped just as much as you wiped your enemy. At that point call a draw and play another game 
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Dec 27, 2020 03:37
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is there a SA chess thread somewhere? i'm not a great player by any means, i'm ranked at about 1200 on chess.com but none of my friends really play and it would be nice to play against anyone other than complete randos edit: took me all of 4 seconds to find after i posted https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3490241 God Hole fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Dec 27, 2020 |
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Dec 27, 2020 03:49
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So how is the general chess community taking this show and it’s inspiration for an explosion in interest in chess? Are they mostly all happy about it or are there insular assholes scoffing at it?
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Dec 27, 2020 16:55
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So how is the general chess community taking this show and it’s inspiration for an explosion in interest in chess? Are they mostly all happy about it or are there insular assholes scoffing at it? I'm curious too. One thing it weirdly did for me was make me really wanting to get back into fencing. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Dec 27, 2020 |
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Dec 27, 2020 18:02
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So how is the general chess community taking this show and it’s inspiration for an explosion in interest in chess? Are they mostly all happy about it or are there insular assholes scoffing at it? Overall no one who makes a living in chess could be anything but really happy about it. Obviously the immediate hype is fading but it will lead to some percentage of those newly interested sticking with the game which is bound to be significantly more than before. Top American Grandmaster Hikaru Nakamura has a chess stream on Twitch that gets up to 10K or more viewers at a time which is WAY higher than a lot of popular streamers of big games. I don't know what numbers he was getting before Queen's Gambit but I seriously doubt it was that high. To be fair Hikaru is really good at streaming, he "gets" it more than any other big time chess player, and has the gift of gab and has a good personality.
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Dec 27, 2020 18:22
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Chess actually had a pretty big revival earlier in the year (independently). At least on a superficial level, in any ELO system you generally would want as many people worse than you playing as it will easily inflate your rating, which is again just superficial but lots of people have specific rating goals.
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Dec 28, 2020 13:31
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sticklefifer posted:I've dabbled a bit on and off with chess.com for years, and watching the show made me go back to it more frequently, but the one move I always forget about is en passant. It's so specific and used so rarely that it almost feels like cheating when someone pulls it out, like it's a house rule that caught on. It would've been fun to see that as a plot point in one of the major games. https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1242924 This game ends with an en passant checkmate that's pretty lol It probably wouldn't show up in the games they used for the show because they're much more important games and you kinda have to look like a dope at that level to forget that it's a thing let alone lose because of it.
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Dec 28, 2020 15:34
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