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Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

In this thread, we discuss the details of various RPG settings and explain why our takes are correct and other people's takes are less correct.

  • Endless Winter is a lie and glamour appears scarce because the loving sidhe are hoarding it.
  • The way Aberrant 1e handled Divis Mal was perfectly fine and it's never going to have the same effect in 2e because 2e just comes right out and tells you what you're supposed to think.
  • People should just ignore the Wall of the Faithless instead of trying to make it make sense in the setting, because the Forgotten Realms is not written so that this kind of conceit fits.
  • It's morally wrong to play heroic Technocrats; please feel bad.
  • Antediluvians aren't real; please ignore any books that suggest they are. (At the very least their power levels are highly over-reported.)
  • Orlanthi like to talk about being the free-est motherfuckers around but they are hypocrites.
  • Excrucians exist because if the universe can't handle a bit of deconstruction it's just not ready for primetime.

These takes are solid fact and there's just no getting around it!

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LeSquide
Nov 1, 2012

Eat.
At.
Ed'sTM.



The Wall of the Faithless keeps surviving edition changes because it's not just a bad idea, it's a positively toxic meme. It infests divine minds in setting, and bedevils writer and player brains without.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

I'm the babyliberal, gotta love me!


And look! What's that in the sky? The Constellation of Setting and the Constellation of Lore are missing. Surely this can't be good.

Antivehicular
Dec 30, 2011

I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving
And something has got to give


Vtubers are avatars of the Naked Goddess. I will not be taking counterarguments at this time.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 36 hours!


LeSquide posted:

The Wall of the Faithless keeps surviving edition changes because it's not just a bad idea, it's a positively toxic meme. It infests divine minds in setting, and bedevils writer and player brains without.

There’s nothing wrong with the Wall of the Faithless in setting. It’s internally consistent and it fits.

But it’s also gone again, Wizards deleted it in their most recent round of 5e errata. So lol at whatever the gently caress they’re doing over there because just deleting bits of canon without any context is a terrible strategy.

Antivehicular
Dec 30, 2011

I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving
And something has got to give


The saga of Elminster is all a hallucination; the real Elminster is level 2 or so and is choking on his own blood on the floor in some lovely dungeon, dreaming of his wondrous future Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge-style

LeSquide
Nov 1, 2012

Eat.
At.
Ed'sTM.



Arivia posted:

There’s nothing wrong with the Wall of the Faithless in setting. It’s internally consistent and it fits.

But it’s also gone again, Wizards deleted it in their most recent round of 5e errata. So lol at whatever the gently caress they’re doing over there because just deleting bits of canon without any context is a terrible strategy.

Another victim of the meme!

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



Sevening your soul is how you start reincarnating, eventually turning you into a being like a Dragonewt.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Arivia posted:

There’s nothing wrong with the Wall of the Faithless in setting. It’s internally consistent and it fits.

But it’s also gone again, Wizards deleted it in their most recent round of 5e errata. So lol at whatever the gently caress they’re doing over there because just deleting bits of canon without any context is a terrible strategy.

I dunno, I feel like it's nice that they've figured out they can alter the setting without needing a cosmic crisis to justify it.

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Nanomashoes posted:

Sevening your soul is how you start reincarnating, eventually turning you into a being like a Dragonewt.

Wait, why would anybody want to be like a dragonewt?

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



Rand Brittain posted:

Wait, why would anybody want to be like a dragonewt?

Everyone is already a dragonewt.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

I'm the babyliberal, gotta love me!


Nanomashoes posted:

Everyone is already a dragonewt.

.... I got better!

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!


Arthas isn't in 5e because every extraplanar traveler to that world either gets eaten by halflings or takes one look at the desert, goes "well gently caress THAT," and closes the portal behind them.

WINNERSH TRIANGLE
Aug 17, 2011



Elmal has been memory-holed from Glorantha because of he represents a deconstruction of Yelmic patriarchal rule (sets aside his place in the misogynist sun tribe, adherents don't participate in either male-coded or female-coded early clan rites but stand outside on guard. Orlanthi society - which claims to be gender equal but in fact operates a highly binarist complementarian patriarchy that limits gender non-conformity to subordinate social roles or tokenises it through Helerism - stabbed Elmal in the back by replacing him with a more conservative and reactionary deity. Yelmalio is transphobia. Peace.

Capfalcon
Apr 6, 2012

No Boots on the Ground,
Puny Mortals!



The Aurum are the closest thing to secular good guys in Eberron, because at their highest level, they are the only people that recognize the biggest threat to Khorvaire isn't the various world spanning evils, but the absolute stranglehold the Dragonmarked houses hold the Five Nations in.

Ultiville
Jan 14, 2005

The law protects no one unless it binds everyone, binds no one unless it protects everyone.



Capfalcon posted:

The Aurum are the closest thing to secular good guys in Eberron, because at their highest level, they are the only people that recognize the biggest threat to Khorvaire isn't the various world spanning evils, but the absolute stranglehold the Dragonmarked houses hold the Five Nations in.

Droam and the hobgoblin one (Darguul? Been a while) can also join as indigenous polities claiming their independence from the settler states.

Nanomashoes
Aug 18, 2012



WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:

Elmal has been memory-holed from Glorantha because of he represents a deconstruction of Yelmic patriarchal rule (sets aside his place in the misogynist sun tribe, adherents don't participate in either male-coded or female-coded early clan rites but stand outside on guard. Orlanthi society - which claims to be gender equal but in fact operates a highly binarist complementarian patriarchy that limits gender non-conformity to subordinate social roles or tokenises it through Helerism - stabbed Elmal in the back by replacing him with a more conservative and reactionary deity. Yelmalio is transphobia. Peace.

It was the doing of the teller of lies to replace the strongest anti-chaos deity in the Orlanthi pantheon with Nysalor.

Froghammer
Sep 8, 2012





Capfalcon posted:

The Aurum are the closest thing to secular good guys in Eberron, because at their highest level, they are the only people that recognize the biggest threat to Khorvaire isn't the various world spanning evils, but the absolute stranglehold the Dragonmarked houses hold the Five Nations in.
Counterpoint: many Aurum higher-ups are also higher-ups in the Dragonmarked Houses who would stand to personally benefit from slight shake-ups to the status quo. Corporate monopolies being bad doesn't make the Skull And Bones Society good

TK_Nyarlathotep
Jun 3, 2016

Ban-thing the man-things.

Eugh, Divis Malposting.

Baku
Aug 20, 2005

by Fluffdaddy


The Wall of the Faithless is weird because, like, it exists in a setting where there's objectively Good gods of stuff like joy and love who give you phenomenal powers for paying lip service to them. Aside from the problem of imperfect information, why should anyone want to be an atheist?

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007


Rand Brittain posted:


[*]Excrucians exist because if the universe can't handle a bit of deconstruction it's just not ready for primetime.


Excrucians are the resistance of an oppressed colonized people, Ninuan has just as much right to be considered real as Creation, and Creation's deliberately set ontological status of exclusively real is an attempt at genocidal erasure. The war against Creation is justified as an attempt at survival but futile because no amount of effort can forcibly return a devastated culture to its pre-colonial state, and ofc answering one genocide with another doesn't actually solve anything. (Chuubo's is the post apocalyptic good ending in which the tyrannical structures of the oppressor state are disarmed at great cost allowing both parties a chance to coexist in uneasy peace)

My players are extremely hype for Glitch and have been hashing out their setting takes like it's open mic night at the occupy camp

LeSquide
Nov 1, 2012

Eat.
At.
Ed'sTM.



TK_Nyarlathotep posted:

Eugh, Divis Malposting.

still has arms

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Lambo Trillrissian posted:

Excrucians are the resistance of an oppressed colonized people, Ninuan has just as much right to be considered real as Creation, and Creation's deliberately set ontological status of exclusively real is an attempt at genocidal erasure. The war against Creation is justified as an attempt at survival but futile because no amount of effort can forcibly return a devastated culture to its pre-colonial state, and ofc answering one genocide with another doesn't actually solve anything. (Chuubo's is the post apocalyptic good ending in which the tyrannical structures of the oppressor state are disarmed at great cost allowing both parties a chance to coexist in uneasy peace)

My players are extremely hype for Glitch and have been hashing out their setting takes like it's open mic night at the occupy camp

Excrucians are a revanchist class of displaced hereditary nobles, and Tain Athen Ness did nothing wrong.

Capfalcon
Apr 6, 2012

No Boots on the Ground,
Puny Mortals!



Circa the end of DS9, Klingons are one generation, two at best, away from getting absorbed into the Federation, and it will end terribly for all involved.

Ultiville posted:

Droam and the hobgoblin one (Darguul? Been a while) can also join as indigenous polities claiming their independence from the settler states.

Good point, they can join too.

Capfalcon
Apr 6, 2012

No Boots on the Ground,
Puny Mortals!



The Lady of Pain is a persona traded between a secret group or powerful outsiders to keep their underlings from causing too much trouble in Sigil and ruining the place for everyone

Antivehicular
Dec 30, 2011

I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving
And something has got to give


Capfalcon posted:

The Lady of Pain is a persona traded between a secret group or powerful outsiders to keep their underlings from causing too much trouble in Sigil and ruining the place for everyone

This, but for every setting-defining overpowered NPC

I recognize that my personal theory of "the Scarlet Empress is actually a Sidereal wearing a long-term Resplendent Destiny of the Sorcerer, explaining her unusual longevity and lack of any biographical detail; her sudden disappearance was because new evidence came to light that this excessive RD use was damaging the constellation of the Sorcerer, and as bad as having the Empress disappear was, it was better than breaking another goddamn constellation" is not in fact canon, but I maintain its fundamental superiority to the dogshit canon we actually got

Spiderfist Island
Feb 19, 2011


Ralzakark is an avatar or partial remnant of Gbaji/Nysalor rather than just a servant. I figured this out just from KoDP and reading up on Ralzakark's various simultaneous avatars, so I assume this is a very "Duh" thing to more experienced Gloranthaheads. Also, Gbaji is kind of memetic in how it works as a illuminated creature with major ties to chaos and illusion, and so they're just a more subtle version of that one chaos god who infected everyone who thought about them, except instead just being able to piggyback along or partly corrupt people and ideas. Gbaji doesn't even need to "manifest" as a coherent entity separate from another creature, it's the most subtle Chaos God and is basically a self-negating lie-of-lies infesting Glorantha. Due to this kind of Chaos-based causality breaking things down, Arkat and Nysalor were both Gbaji until their showdown in the City of Wonders created a single "purified" entity that walked away from the rubble.

Helerings and Heler are a remnant of a dead non-Orlanthi culture that was centered in what became Maniria.

Ralios and Salfester need to be more of a focus in the setting of Glorantha's lore instead of Dragon Pass Book #XXIV. Or at least a real Lunar deep dive for once.

The Prism Pentad is not canon and Dark Sun present's is the 4E standard of eternally in the period just after Kalat's death and the semi-anarchy in the Free City of Tyr.

In Dark Sun, there are no successful Avangions. But it is possible.

Dragonblooded in Dark Sun are the defective first children of Dregoth, kicked up to the surface. The second generation is much more preternaturally magical than the first.

Badna may be fake a fake god made up as a propaganda move by the Sorcerer Queen of Raam, but if enough people believe in him...

EverettLO
Jul 2, 2007
I'm a lurker no more




Spiderfist Island posted:

In Dark Sun, there are no successful Avangions. But it is possible.

This is absolutely true, but Oronis is well on his way to becoming the first. I assume the only reason he will never make it is because it's a player-facing idea.

I would also contend that, given the incredibly stupid AD&D requirements to become an Avangion in the original Dark Sun, no player ever legitimately reached full Avangion in the original game (although tons probably did with lots of DM fiat). Something like half of their experience from levels 21 through 30 has to be achieved when adventuring alone which is an incredibly stupid thing for a group game.

I don't know if this counts as lore, but I also contend that no player anywhere, ever managed to become an Immortal in the BECMI vein legitimately. Given the method of becoming an Immortal, and given the overall population of Greyhawk or any other D&D setting, the odds that any NPC could have gotten there by luck alone is impossible. The entire track of getting characters to Immortal status is a false path set by the Gods to trick ambitious mortals into wasting their energies.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Chomsky Boi

Arkat is the Evil that Does Good and hence cannot be Gbaji.
Arkat is also the one example in fiction of someone actually retiring from the world and becoming a farmer. Not "oh he became a terrifying demi-god of x" no. He just loving retired having done what he set out to do.
Shadowrun lore needs more corporate states getting their poo poo kicked in.
"Violence is always an option" is a revolutionary slogan and a rallying cry that can, and should, be applied to every game. Not because violence is inherently right or good (it isn't, it is frequently horrible and lovely) but because the ability to use violence is revolutionary.
Droaam and Dargun are often "the good guys".


Agree completely.

Rand Brittain posted:

[*]Orlanthi like to talk about being the free-est motherfuckers around but they are hypocrites.

Yes. Just like every other culture.

Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Dec 7, 2020

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

EverettLO posted:

Something like half of their experience from levels 21 through 30 has to be achieved when adventuring alone which is an incredibly stupid thing for a group game.

I suspect this, the dragon pc's animalistic period, and even the elemental cleric's percentage chance of having to faff around in the elemental planes are related to the character tree framework that had every player with four swappable PCs on hand.

EverettLO
Jul 2, 2007
I'm a lurker no more




Bieeanshee posted:

I suspect this, the dragon pc's animalistic period, and even the elemental cleric's percentage chance of having to faff around in the elemental planes are related to the character tree framework that had every player with four swappable PCs on hand.

Oh man, I completely forgot about Character Trees. The unintentional side effect is that it slowed down your overall leveling speed by, what, half?

I suppose it would be possible to just keep playing a non-metamorphizing PC full time and shunting levels onto a non-played Avangion-to-be, but that is one unsatisfying way to go through one of the most interesting gameplay features of the setting.

You'll end up with a level 30 stalking horse PC and then your fully metamorphized Avangion will reappear and take over the campaign.

Mimir
Nov 26, 2012


Oh, Ralzakark’s deal and the 5 Arkats that show up in the Hero Wars are different expressions of the same magical principle. Ralzakark gets to show up first because he’s chaos.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Chomsky Boi

Mimir posted:

Oh, Ralzakark’s deal and the 5 Arkats that show up in the Hero Wars are different expressions of the same magical principle. Ralzakark gets to show up first because he’s chaos.

I think that Arkat does return 5 times, but they are because Arkat's ascension point getting destroyed by the wielder of the Flame Sword caused His essence to fracture. I think that all of them are aspects of Arkat after he ascended, but in the same way that in the Chariot of Lightning Sect Orlanth's speaking ability is Issaries.

Because Arkat is not yet a Great God he instead only has 5 aspects to himself. Though I think that in my version of Glorantha Arkat could well ascend to be a Greater God.

Capfalcon
Apr 6, 2012

No Boots on the Ground,
Puny Mortals!



Antivehicular posted:

Vtubers are avatars of the Naked Goddess. I will not be taking counterarguments at this time.

Streaming services are a plot by the Godwalker of the True King to destroy Videomancy as we know it.

Antivehicular posted:

This, but for every setting-defining overpowered NPC

Even Elminster?
Especially Elminster.

Fuligin
Oct 27, 2010

wait what the fuck??



the mournland is only the first incursion of the Dark Powers into Eberron. The rest of Khorvaire will slip into a demiplane of dread just as soon as the Next War gets kicking.

Antivehicular
Dec 30, 2011

I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving
And something has got to give


Capfalcon posted:

Even Elminster?
Especially Elminster.

"Elminster" is a council of a dozen or so unremarkable mid-level wizards who take turns Change Selfing into the character when they need to do face-to-face meetings; adventurers tend to respond better to colorful figures with over-the-top legends attached. He's essentially the Realms' Mr. Johnson, just with the complete opposite schtick.

mellonbread
Dec 20, 2017


The Titanian Commonwealth in Eclipse Phase is a nice place to live because the Fall basically skipped them, not because of any virtues of their political system.

Rimward, Page 93 posted:

The second wave of infugee uploads to reach Titan through the relays, about 3.5 million egos, were infected with the virulent Höðr virus. Höðr was a destructive, polymorphic virus designed by the TITANs themselves to erase data and sew chaos.

...

The Battle of Iapetus comprised little more than several skirmishes with TITAN killsats followed by surface bombing raids. The TITANs never counterattacked in any substantial way, and by the time Commonwealth marines made planetfall, the TITANs had mysteriously abandoned their matrioshka brain project. The only other major military engagement during the Fall was Operation Jotunhammar, Fleet’s operation to secure heavy metal supply lines from the Main Belt. Most of the fighting during Jotunhammar was against Jovian ships trying to jump claims rather than the TITANs.
While everyone else was fighting for their lives and figuring out how to rehouse/resleeve millions of people, the Titanians were not only left alone, but actively seized the opportunity to steal resources from other factions.

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface


Baku posted:

The Wall of the Faithless is weird because, like, it exists in a setting where there's objectively Good gods of stuff like joy and love who give you phenomenal powers for paying lip service to them. Aside from the problem of imperfect information, why should anyone want to be an atheist?

Literally cosmic punishment for people who see a parade of various supernatural belief powered entities and go "Hrmm seems fake"

Also Myrkul just doesn't want to deal with the paperwork.

Zurai
Feb 13, 2012


After this year, I 100% support permanent removal from existence for people who see something obvious and go, "Fake news!"

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Reveilled
Apr 19, 2007

Take up your rifles


My understanding of the Wall was always that the people shoved into it don't tend to believe the gods do not exist, but rather are people who refuse to worship, for a variety of reasons ranging from personal trauma to moral convictions. It never seemed unreasonable to me that someone might believe that any god who endorsed the practice of torturing souls to maintain the status quo was not really deserving of worship. Doubly so if they learned that this was a practice essentially unique to the gods of Toril.

I never much liked the Wall, but I'm unsure how I feel about it just being unceremoniously excised from the setting. I guess I imagined that if it was ever brought down it would be a bigger deal, either a recognition by the gods of its injustice, or a concerted and heroic effort to right its wrongness. Just deleting it from the canon feels a bit like a cop out, a refusal to wrestle with its moral implications. I think I'll keep it in for my FR campaigns,

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