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I'll cop to the fact that my first, knee jerk thought about that Star Trek clip was "well this is UNREALISTIC, it's the fuuuuuuture!" But almost immediately after I realized "No, it isn't. Not for us." That's the point. The show is written to be broadcast to current humans. Strict narrative purity is a distant second to that. I've known I was NB for 10 years, many have known longer. Even more have presented and behaved NB without consciously labeling themselves that for longer (especially in alt scenes, come to my TED talk on NB activity in the 90s Goth Scene). But for the vast, vast majority of the population, NB is a "new" thing. The reality of our, well, reality, is that people get exposure to experiences different to their own through fictional media, so it's unambiguously Good for this exposure. It doesn't matter, not even literally one bit, that it kinda doesn't make sense within the Trek universe since they "defeated" bigotry. That scene is for us, and for people to see us. (Author's note: I have not actually watched any star trek since TNG and I don't really like anything except TOS, so apologies if my trek lore is off)
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Dec 4, 2020 02:23
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I wish this conversation was happening in the Modern Trek thread because we really need a new thread title and I bet yall would have some gems
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Dec 4, 2020 02:27
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Tarkus posted:It's acting, they can play whatever they're comfortable with. They can, but should they? People have brought stuff like this up as problematic when it comes to actors playing something outside of their religion, race, physical or mental abilities. Someone would probably get up in arms about it.
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Dec 4, 2020 02:35
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Also, Anthony Rapp always looks like a smug jerk, I wouldn't harsh him to much for that scene. He's working with what he's got. He's a generally really cool guy I've heard
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Dec 4, 2020 02:35
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dicks
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Dec 4, 2020 02:35
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sigher posted:They can, but should they? People have brought stuff like this up as problematic when it comes to actors playing something outside of their religion, race, physical or mental abilities. Someone would probably get up in arms about it. I think the difference here is that it's okay since he originated the role. That's my opinion.
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Dec 4, 2020 02:38
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Cowman posted:dicks They're delicious, when one is in the right mood
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Dec 4, 2020 02:39
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Simone Magus posted:I think the difference here is that it's okay since he originated the role. That's my opinion. this feels like a valid loophole also, I think the main reason people get up in arms over people being cast outside their race/religion/what have you is that the person being cast over the right stuff is always a cishet white person, at least in america
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Dec 4, 2020 02:46
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alexandriao posted:That's pretty interesting because I read it as "conversion therapy bad". Like while Picard is the moral center of the show, we see the entire episode framed from Riker's perspective. I think the episode was bungled in that aspect. They kind of were trying to say "we have to respect every individual civilization's own culture and stuff" but you can't really do that when the civilization doesn't respect its own people's individuality. It's a sort of catch-22. Also, Riker gives Troi a full on lip-smooch after he tells her he's wanting to date Soren, which is like yo what, who does that edit: This speech was pretty good though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMqGlSjAbwA AHH F/UGH fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Dec 4, 2020 |
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Dec 4, 2020 02:48
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RFC2324 posted:this feels like a valid loophole Oh for sure. Gay actors play straight all the time, for example, and I'm struggling to think of a time that has ever been contentious.
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Dec 4, 2020 03:11
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RFC2324 posted:also, I think the main reason people get up in arms over people being cast outside their race/religion/what have you is that the person being cast over the right stuff is always a cishet white person, at least in america So is it only bad if a white person does it? Honest question.
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Dec 4, 2020 03:18
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Who would Elliot Page play in Star Trek? Wil Wheaton's character?
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Dec 4, 2020 03:24
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Video Nasty posted:Who would Elliot Page play in Star Trek? Wil Wheaton's character? Your dad.
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Dec 4, 2020 03:25
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Lil Swamp Booger Baby posted:Your dad. I don't recall that episode. Was he a red shirt?
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Dec 4, 2020 03:25
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sigher posted:So is it only bad if a white person does it? Honest question. There's a representation issue. There are way more trans/nb actors and media workers than spots available for trans/nb characters, and a considerable number of said spots are taken by cis people. And then when you consider cis characters, that number just plummets even further. While Elliot was already present in the industry, his presence helps normalizing it. A black 007 would be nice into normalizing the idea that a black person can fit inside the "smooth elegant" view of the 007esque in the imaginary, while ScarJo doing Ghost in the Shell... I mean, she was fine and all but all it should be obvious why people were frustrated.
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Dec 4, 2020 03:27
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Elentor posted:There's a representation issue. There are way more trans/nb actors and media workers than spots available for trans/nb characters Exactly. If Hollywood weren't dominated by cis roles it would be different. Also, there's often a bias against casting an out gay person to play a straight role; it used to be box office poison. So if you say that cis people can play gay but gay rarely play cis, that obviously is giving an entire segment of actors an advantage they don't even need
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Dec 4, 2020 03:36
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Isn't there a black woman in the new 007 who plays another 00 agent? Pretty sure that's in the trailer (lol watching movies in 2020)
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Dec 4, 2020 03:37
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AHH F/UGH posted:Isn't there a black woman in the new 007 who plays another 00 agent? Pretty sure that's in the trailer (lol watching movies in 2020) Yes. They might not own a TV.
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Dec 4, 2020 03:38
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Also what about Eddie Redmayne? He's a cis white straight guy but he won the oscar for The Danish Girl. I never saw it but I heard it was good. Anyone seen it?
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Dec 4, 2020 03:39
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AHH F/UGH posted:Also what about Eddie Redmayne? He's a cis white straight guy but he won the oscar for The Danish Girl. I never saw it but I heard it was good. Anyone seen it? His weird alien face bothers me, but he was surprisingly good in Trial of the Chicago 7 (though not nearly as good as Borat Hoffman or Frank Langella)
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Dec 4, 2020 03:44
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AHH F/UGH posted:Also what about Eddie Redmayne? He's a cis white straight guy but he won the oscar for The Danish Girl. I never saw it but I heard it was good. Anyone seen it? Movie sucks
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Dec 4, 2020 03:45
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AHH F/UGH posted:Also what about Eddie Redmayne? He's a cis white straight guy but he won the oscar for The Danish Girl. I never saw it but I heard it was good. Anyone seen it? I'm not LGBTQIA myself, but I had a visceral sort of aversion to that oscar win. The Oscars are voted on by Hollywood and giving it to a film about a transgender person portrayed by a cisgendered white guy felt like a parody of people clapping themselves on the back
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Dec 4, 2020 03:59
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TheAardvark posted:I'm not LGBTQIA myself, but I had a visceral sort of aversion to that oscar win. The Oscars are voted on by Hollywood and giving it to a film about a transgender person portrayed by a cisgendered white guy felt like a parody of people clapping themselves on the back I mean, Hollywood IS a bunch of liberals
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Dec 4, 2020 04:03
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Prism Mirror Lens posted:When British TERFs talk about trans women they seem to be stuck on this sort of comedy image and cannot move past it. They are literally picturing this person walking into their bathroom and reacting in horror. From a few pages ago but this image is so funny to me because I know a bunch of cis women who love dressing in this style, and go nuts over big neon coloured hair, puffy dresses and heaps of makeup. For them it's the most 'womanly' thing imaginable. It only just occurred to me that there are people out there who might mistake them as trans for being performatively feminine in their appearance. To clarify, they don't literally wear polka dot aprons whenever they go grocery shopping, but they don't shy away from bright colours and materials.
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Dec 4, 2020 04:12
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AHH F/UGH posted:Isn't there a black woman in the new 007 who plays another 00 agent? Pretty sure that's in the trailer (lol watching movies in 2020) p. sure she's the new 007
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Dec 4, 2020 04:15
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Elentor posted:A black 007 would be nice into normalizing the idea that a black person can fit inside the "smooth elegant" view of the 007esque in the imaginary, while ScarJo doing Ghost in the Shell... I mean, she was fine and all but all it should be obvious why people were frustrated. Would a fat white american male fit into 1000 and 1 Arabian nights because god dammit I want that ideal to fit that in there?
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Dec 4, 2020 04:24
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Arabian NUUUUuuuuuUUUUuuuts, just bust in some BUUUUUuuuuuUUUUuuuutts, dicks harder than rocks, just sleek sexy cocks, out there in my pooOoooooOoon.
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Dec 4, 2020 04:34
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Ernest Cline is definitely a modern day Scheherazade, yes
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Dec 4, 2020 04:35
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sigher posted:So is it only bad if a white person does it? Honest question. When the privileged class push out minority actors who could otherwise play the minority character, it's bad, yes. AHH F/UGH posted:Also what about Eddie Redmayne? He's a cis white straight guy but he won the oscar for The Danish Girl. I never saw it but I heard it was good. Anyone seen it? No. Cis Men should never, ever play a transgender woman. Cis women should never, ever play a transgender man. E: Lmao was that you Bloop? You're a loving baby, you absolute sook. Nice work on the gendered insult too, you performative dumbass. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Dec 4, 2020 |
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Dec 4, 2020 04:42
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Elentor posted:There's a representation issue. There are way more trans/nb actors and media workers than spots available for trans/nb characters, and a considerable number of said spots are taken by cis people. And then when you consider cis characters, that number just plummets even further. While Elliot was already present in the industry, his presence helps normalizing it. How many trans or nonbinary characters are there that aren't represented by someone who's either? I can't think of any off the top of my head. I don't know what the full extent of the issue is with Scarlett Johansson in Ghost in the Shell, I don't know the source material well (I watched it 20 years ago or something) and I didn't see the film, but my friend said that the director of the anime didn't give a poo poo because of something about the body and soul being disconnected from one another. Simone Magus posted:Exactly. If Hollywood weren't dominated by cis roles it would be different. Don't cis people represent most of the population of the planet and dominate all professions? Does it not make sense that most roles are cis characters? Or do you mean just rolls given to cis actors regardless of the character's gender? Miss Broccoli posted:When the privileged class push out minority actors who could otherwise play the minority character, it's bad, yes. Does this happen a lot?
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Dec 4, 2020 05:01
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sigher posted:Don't cis people represent most of the population of the planet and dominate all professions? Does it not make sense that most roles are cis characters? Or do you mean just rolls given to cis actors regardless of the character's gender? Well, that's an extremely tricky subject. Do you believe fiction should map into reality in a 1:1 manner? If one were to propose a landscape of fiction which matches the statistics of reality, one presumes 99% of films would be footage of someone working at a regular job and there would only exist a few films about people or events that are actually interesting or noteworthy. And no superhero movies, which, granted, might be a good thing 
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Dec 4, 2020 05:09
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sigher posted:How many trans or nonbinary characters are there that aren't represented by someone who's either? I can't think of any off the top of my head. No one is writing these kinds of characters because it’s mostly white people writing about white people and then casting white people.
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Dec 4, 2020 05:18
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sigher posted:I don't know what the full extent of the issue is with Scarlett Johansson in Ghost in the Shell, I don't know the source material well (I watched it 20 years ago or something) and I didn't see the film, but my friend said that the director of the anime didn't give a poo poo because of something about the body and soul being disconnected from one another. Hollywood is absolute poo poo when it comes to giving/making roles for asian people. quote:Does this happen a lot? Oh yeah
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Dec 4, 2020 05:20
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sigher posted:Does this happen a lot? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewashing_in_film
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Dec 4, 2020 05:21
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sigher posted:How many trans or nonbinary characters are there that aren't represented by someone who's either? I can't think of any off the top of my head.
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Dec 4, 2020 05:26
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sigher posted:
Yeah all the time trans characters are played by cis people. Scarlett Johansson got incredibly defensive recently when people were like YO, its pretty hosed for you to play a transgender man. I think you should watch the documentary disclosure. It covers trans rep in media really well, better than any of us idiots can in forum posts without doing the research the makers of that documentary have already done.
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Dec 4, 2020 05:42
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Simone Magus posted:Well, that's an extremely tricky subject. Do you believe fiction should map into reality in a 1:1 manner? CelticPredator posted:No one is writing these kinds of characters because it’s mostly white people writing about white people and then casting white people. I mean, you write what you know; I don't think people want to just shoehorn in certain characters they wouldn't be able to do justice for the sake of diversity. I don't think they should either, I don't think anyone should be told how to craft their art. If they want to include them, go for it. I do however believe that there should be more inclusion of trans writers and actors for their own projects off the ground which would be better representation than anything else. Whitewashing I know well enough, but I meant specifically in regards to trans characters.
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Dec 4, 2020 05:46
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Simone Magus posted:(especially in alt scenes, come to my TED talk on NB activity in the 90s Goth Scene). as an aside, i would absolutely love to go to that ted talk or at the very least read a very long medium post about it.
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Dec 4, 2020 05:54
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sigher posted:I mean, you write what you know No, you don't. Soldiers don't write war movies. A serial killer didn't write American Psycho. Ivan Reitman and Dan Aykroyd are not, despite what the latter desperately wishes to believe, ghost hunters. Writers are writers precisely because of their capacity for imagination and putting themselves in others' shoes. Male writers don't exclusively write fiction in which everyone is male; straight writers should be capable of (and have, very often and with great empathy and skill) writing gay characters, etc.
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Dec 4, 2020 05:56
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Miss Broccoli posted:Scarlett Johansson got incredibly defensive recently when people were like YO, its pretty hosed for you to play a transgender man. As an addendum to this, the cis argument is usually "but she has drawing power, she's a big well known name", but it actually makes it a lot worse because trans people don't want you to think "Trans Man" and think of this: 
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Dec 4, 2020 05:59
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