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WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008




That crab is high af

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WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008




Bones is loving awesome.

WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008




Franchescanado posted:

I'm not going to defend Troma's sense of humor, because audiences and comedy evolves and things don't age well, and everyone's sense of humor is a unique amalgamation of tastes, and you have a right to be offended by what offends you. I will provide a context in that most Kaufman-helmed projects is that's kinda the point. They are outrageously offensive and vulgar on purpose. Troma's sense of humor isn't punching down, cuz they are a dirt-poor indie company, they are in the gutter. So I think of them as the drunk trying to fight and swinging fists wildly in all directions. There isn't any hatred in Troma's jokes, usually the jokes being lobbed are so stupid and tongue-in-cheek, they aren't to be taken seriously. I think the most hateful joke I've seen in a Troma film is directed at Spielberg and JAWS. They are angry at status quos, not individual weirdos. The rest are misfits making fun of other misfits.

Yeah whenever Troma and itís uh lack of tact comes up I canít help but go back to this point- some gags are dumb, some are tasteless, many are unfunny, but none are serious. I donít want to watch many Troma films and I dislike most of them but I am grateful they exist because who am I to tell Kaufman what is on or off the table? Their entire existence is low budget DIY punk trash, they donít just dip into that every once and a while to maintain their anti-establishment status, they exist entirely in the bottom of the barrel and they simply are incapable of punching down in a meaningful way.

WeaponX fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Apr 2, 2021

WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008




This comes up constantly but contextualizing the albeit tasteless world of Troma that has 100s of films and 40+ years of material that support its status as pure-camp with nearly zero malice is not some sort of defense of bigotry or the quality of those films. Troma, like it or not, has given a platform for many marginalized or ignored artists long before mainstream film companies were willing to and they have the history to prove it- thatís important context, not an excuse, when discussing its brand of offensive humor.

Comparing Troma to something like 4chan, which has actually resulted in real life violence and horrible, horrible poo poo is a bad faith argument. And again, I think Troma movies are poo poo!

WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008




STAC Goat posted:

Like I don't know how to take "Pissing people off, I discovered, is one of the few satisfying things on this forsaken planet" in any way but "an edgelord's intent is filled with cynicism and meant to make the target feel bad and outraged."

You are missing the part where that quote comes in the context of pissing off his Yale classmates. The ďpeopleĒ in that quote are those with incredible privilege and power and I think Kaufman gets off on making those people squirm. Making them feel hypocritical or forcing them to look at things they ignore. He is not saint, I just donít think edgelord is fair- especially with how dangerous those people are today.

WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008




STAC Goat posted:

But who's he pissing off making transphobic and racist jokes? I'm just having a hard time wrapping my mind around this. Its one thing to justify trolling bad people, but when you're punching down how does that match if not that he just likes pissing off whoever he can?


edit: I'm truly sorry for all this. Obviously I'm the sole voice of disagreement. I understand you all have decades of love for Troma and I don't want to attack that. I don't want to be an rear end in a top hat. I should have never done the Nuke Em High marathon. It put me in a really bad place and really hardened my views of Kaufman. And that's on me and I'm sorry for putting you all through it too.

But as always thank you, spook-a-doodle crew, for being understanding of my feelings and hearing me out without it getting ugly. I apologize if I in any way made something feel like an attack or made this worse than it had to be. I appreciate you all and even if I need to take a step back to not drag this out I'll be here Friday with a new matchup.

Donít apologize- your opinion on Troma is a valuable as anyone elseís.

Iíll just say that I canít really speak for how people of those groups feel about racist or transphobic jokes. My main point remains that for a film company that has released films directed by openly gay and trans filmmakers going back 30 years, on top of giving voices to those ignored by mainstream film for various reasons, deserves some benefit of doubt and examination. You have clearly given Troma more examination than most would and I applaud you for that.

WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008




Franchescanado posted:

One thing that's sticking out to me is that hasn't been discussed is the whole culture in comedy for roasting, and part of Troma is that they roast everybody. Just like how Don Rickles made a career as a comedian who roasted the audience. You bought a ticket, you go to the show, and he's gonna find you in the crowd and make fun of you. You get embarrassed and/or you laugh along. Then he picks another person from the audience and the spotlight is off of you, and then you get to breathe easy and the next person gets made fun of while you laugh at them.

Except instead of rich people that can afford a ticket to the Vegas Strip, the spotlight was directed towards the punks and weirdos and, yes, people of various races and different sexualities. While there are people who might get offended by a joke directed at them, for a whole generation it was refreshing to see people like themselves get to be in on the joke and take their licks along with everyone else. It was a form of representation, where punks and freaks and weirdos and nerds and queer people were the characters. Not only that, but a lot of them traveled to the studio to get jobs with them, and became actors and writers and producers.

Yeah I keep coming back to the point that I canít just assume these groups donít want to see jokes about themselves that I may personally find offensive on their behave. Would they see me ďsparringĒ them from that patronizing? Especially when itís Troma and not a multi-million dollar Hollywood film appropriating or mocking marginalized groups? I donít have the answer to this.

All I have is the context the Troma is not at all mainstream, is mostly viewed by those who are already considered ďalternativeĒ by most of society, and seem to have the intention to preserve the right to do whatever you want on film more than the intention to purposely denigrate those that make up their audience. Thatís where I give them the benefit of the doubt but thatís just me, others with more perspective may certainly feel different.

WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008




Tarnop posted:

e: oh yeah and volume 2 went on general release in 2019 and features, as god, Ron Jeremy, a man who at that time was the subject of 20+ credible accusations of rape and sexual assault. How punk.

Nobody is saying Troma is ďpunkĒ because they give jobs to Ron Jeremy, you do know who produced Cursed right?

WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008




STAC Goat posted:

Isn't it kind of possible and even likely that Troma might have been "punk" 40 years ago but now they're just old dudes who still think Ron Jeremy is cool?

Sure but Iím less concerned about what Lloyd Kaufman thinks is cool today and more appreciative that he gives his money and resources to many DIY projects- like a film in 2016 literally described as ďa queer body horror punk musicalĒ. Thatís not 40 years ago.

Again Iím not trying to defend Tromaís lovely behavior- almost every production company is full of evil fucks doing evil things. Iím just trying to point out why some people may still appreciate Tromaís existence in the film world.

WeaponX fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Apr 7, 2021

WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008




Debbie Does Dagon posted:

I have hope! My filthy, stinky, nasty friends won't let me down.

Also Porco Rosso, Ponyo, and Pom Poko are a delight and definitely need to be seen. Every Dad will probably get a kick from Porco Rosso.

Porco Rosso is such a fun, charming little old-Hollywood style adventure. Itís so pretty and often silly and even as a rare Miyazaki film set in real clear time and place it still manages to that setting magical. Never thought Iíd want to spend so much time hanging out with an anthropomorphic pig and some plane flying pirates in pre-WW2 Italy. Super underrated.

WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008




STAC Goat posted:

But I think Verhoeven betrays that because no one else is doing that and the film itself has a very grounded tone. So Nomi just stands out as this crazy person.

Not sure Iíve ever heard someone say Showgirls has a grounded tone...everyone from Kyle MacLachlan to Gina Gershon are playing it big. I mean this is the film with the immortal line, ďmust be nice not having anybody cum on yaĒ. I think there is plenty of crazy to go around.

Best way Iíve heard it put is that films like Robocop and Starship Troopers feature over-the-top, heightened, aggressive scenes of violence in both meaningful and exploitive ways and Showgirls is Verhoeven approaching sex in the same way.

WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008




STAC Goat posted:

Everyone's kind of nuts and the dialogue is all... big. But I think everyone else is like acting more or less like a person. A sleazy, gross person but a person. Nomi's over her pulling knives on people and yelling at everyone and flailing about and eating hamburgers real weird.

Nomi is definitely the most heightened but Iím ok with that, she is our ďEveĒ. I just donít think it stands out that much in the hosed up world of Showgirls

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WeaponX
Jul 28, 2008




Basebf555 posted:

I voted Tingler as well. I never quite understood the thread's overwhelming affection for Miike, I voted against him a few times.

Because Miike is great

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