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Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

I'll participate again, but the team-building is too complicated for my simple mind, so I'll leave that heavy lifting to everyone else. gently caress it, building teams is fun.

Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Dec 7, 2020

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Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Pacific Rim isn't a kaiju movie, either. It's a "jaeger" movie.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Irony.or.Death posted:

That is a nice succinct way of phrasing my objection to it. Good , well done.

Yeah. And also, it's so tonally an action film. And the lighting choices make the movie so dark you basically never see the monsters. You just know they're there. I'd cut it just because it's just a lackluster movie experience.

edit: We need to get TrixRabbi in here. They had a lot of suggestions for the next tournament last thread.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Miike was, like, #2 in the tournament last time, so I assumed he, and Russell, and Yuzna, were all kinda left on the cutting room floor to give spots to three new names.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Like Trix Rabbi said, Jean Rollin would be a really fun one to throw in the mix. His output is consistently visual, dreamy, erotic, lesbian vampire-esque stories, but the quality varies from Great to Terrible, and it's fun to figure out which are which.

Hell. I'll nominate him right now.

Fascination
The Living Dead Girl
The Nude Vampire
The Grapes of Death
The Iron Rose
Lips of Blood
The Night of the Hunted
Requiem for a Vampire
Lost In New York
The Demoniacs
Killing Car

That's most of his vampire films and then his slasher, his thriller, and a sorta-zombie movie.

He also has Zombie Lake, which can be added, but it's really not good.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

And for William Friedkin:

The Exorcist
Bug
Sorcerer
Cruising
The Guardian
Jade
Rampage (1987)

I know there's room to argue that Sorcerer is more of an adventure film than a horror film, but I think we should include it, because so much of the story is based on thrills and terror, the stakes are constantly life or death, man vs nature or even man vs. god, and the final 1/3rd of the film is basically a dark fantasy, with horror imagery.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Does anyone want to bring back Brian De Palma for another go, this time? I had a hell of a fun time with his films.

I now realize we are not repeating any films. Critical reading skills. I have them. Sometimes.

Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Dec 7, 2020

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Team: Femme Fatale

Directors: Claire Denis, Amy Holden Jones, Mary Harron, Antonia Bird, Julia Ducournau, Agnieszka Smoczyńska

Trouble Every Day
Slumber Party Massacre
American Psycho
Ravenous
Raw
The Lure

edit: Are we saying The Bad Batch is horror? I say it isn't, MacheteZombie says it is. If it is, I'll include it on this list. Nevermind. I'm not including Lily Ann Amirpour on my list, due to limits.


trade talk: MacheteZombie did some trading on our movies/players

Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Dec 7, 2020

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

STAC Goat posted:

He's still got 5 horror films I'd love to see added. Theoretically he'd have to be paired with someone unless we reject my team thing.

What are they??

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Team Vulgær

Directors: Gaspar Noe, Lars Von Trier

Noe:

Irreversible
Climax
I Stand Alone
Enter The Void

Lars Von Trier:

The House That Jack Built
Anti-Christ
Epidemic

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Steve Miner

Friday the 13th Part 2
Friday the 13th Part 3
Lake Placid
Halloween H20
House
Warlock
Day of the Dead (2008)

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Irony.or.Death posted:

I can see and respect the angle, but I like the feeling of continuity Team David provides; they met as rivals in the last tournament, but neither Lynch's humanism nor Cronenberg's clinical curiosity were enough to tie up the full package. Now they can set aside their differences and crush all comers. Part of it is also about the specific films they each have left to draw from - The Brood and Eraserhead are an interesting package. I'd be a lot more inclined to do Cronenberg & Son if Videodrome was still up to join Possessor.

Also, check this out:

The Nephilim
Brandon Cronenberg
1. Antiviral
2. Possessor
Jennifer Lynch
3. Surveillance
4. Hisss
5. Chained
Asia Argento
6. DeGenerazione

OK, Asia is maybe a stretch here since DeGenerazione is an anthology she directed one segment of and hell if I know whether it's available anywhere - open to other suggestions for the last spot.

Swap out Asia Argento for Panos Cosmatos, son of George P. Cosmatos, and we've got Mandy and Beyond the Black Rainbow to play with.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Team Rule Breaker

Filmmakers and films that subvert your expectations for the whole run-time.

Directors: Ant Timpson, Jim Hosking, Harmony Korine, Nicolas Winding Refn, Trey Edward Shults

Come To Daddy

The Greasy Strangler

Trash Humpers
Julien Donkey Boy

The Neon Demon

It Comes At Night

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Irony.or.Death posted:

Letterboxd thinks we should also count Fear X for Refn, while IMDB just calls it a thriller - has anyone here seen it to weigh in?

It sounds cool. I'd replace It Comes At Night with Fear X if it'll please the judges.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Tarnop posted:

It's your suggestion, so make sure you're happy with the team! My other option to replace Asia Argento would be Luke Scott, son of Ridley, who made Morgan in 2016. Fits your original vision a little better and we can get Panos in via Team Psychedelia or similar

I'll put Panos on team Rule Breaker, even. edit: or We can use them for a different team.

We're live chatting on team building currently in the discord, if anyone wants to spit-ball in real time with us.

Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Dec 7, 2020

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Debbie Does Dagon posted:

Can we please add Naked Lunch to this list

Seconded.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Debbie Does Dagon posted:

Team: Deb Tricks You Into Watching Porn

Directors: Bruce LaBruce, Alain Guiraudie, Walerian Borowczyk, Carlos Atanes

(Bruce LaBruce)
Otto; or, Up With Dead People

(Alain Guiraudie)
Stranger by the Lake

(Walerian Borowczyk)
The Beast
The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Miss Osbourne

(Carlos Atanes)
Maximum Shame
Gallino, the Chicken System

This team is genius.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Another strange C-Tier director: Kevin Tenney

Night of the Demons (1988)
Witchboard
Witchboard 2
WitchTrap
Pinocchio's Revenge
The Cellar
Brain Dead (2007)
Endangered Species

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

At this point, might it behoove us to rework the thread to be "Horror Movie Bracketology 2021" or something? Since we keep developing so many teams, it being director-centric is misleading.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

STAC Goat posted:

That's fine with me, but I can't do that in the thread title.

I think I know someone who can.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

So we all collaborated and brainstormed in discord and came up with this team:

Team It's Not A Cartoon, Mom! It's Art! <>

Eiichi Yamamoto
Belladonna of Sadness

Satoshi Kon
Paprika
Perfect Blue

Toyoo Ashida
Vampire Hunter D

Hisayuki Toriumi
Lily C.A.T.

Takayuki Hirao
GYO: Tokyo Fish Attack

Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Dec 8, 2020

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

STAC Goat posted:

I didn't realize we doubled up. Sorry, Deb. Beast has to stay on Zuwalski's team.

By your rules, that would mean TrixRabbi either has to also take Dr. Jekyll and Mrs. Osbourne and remove Mother Joan of the Angels, or we just find a Polish film to replace The Beast on TrixRabbi's team.

edit: Another compromise, if we don't go with TrixRabbi swapping out The Beast for Cosmos (which I think would be cool), there's also Rainer Sarnet's November (2017) or Marcin Wrona's Demon from 2015 for the Polish team, or Adrien Paneck's Werewolf from 2018.

Or pick something from this list: Letterboxd list of films tagged with both Poland and Horror: https://letterboxd.com/films/popular/genre/horror/country/poland/size/small/

(I already have The Lure on my Femme Fatale list)

Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Dec 9, 2020

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Honestly? A whole month of play-in rounds sounds fun. It would also give us a chance to spread the word around CineD and beyond for participants.


Basebf555 posted:

I see no reason to speed up the process, January as the actual start of the tournament itself sounds good to me.

Yeah, agreed.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

STAC Goat posted:

Like I said, I think it will be easier to talk out once we do the seeding. Then we can see what we're actually working with and if we feel compelled to play them all. It might be a lot of great films and teams people put interest in, or it might be a bunch of directors I added automatically who no one felt compelled to give a vote. So I'm just kind of leaving that part on the back burner for now.

We'll see what happens, but I'm already considering this a 2021 project more than a quarterly project (in my head), so it being expansive and stuff sounds good. Like I said in the last thread, if it didn't coincide with the October challenge, I would have been happier with the thread taking a month longer, but having two less movies to watch weekly. I like to sit and think about stuff, and that gets harder when I've got 8 movies to watch and consider every week.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

married but discreet posted:

We can always make a heel team with Polanski and Landis.

Maybe I'm an rear end in a top hat, but I'd be okay with this.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

TrixRabbi posted:

As much as John Landis sucks, his crime was more criminal negligence. It's not like he wanted or meant to kill those people, but it was a result of his actions. That is in no way an excuse, he should have faced a much steeper punishment. But like, I can still watch American Werewolf without feeling queasy.

Polanski, well that's a bit different. He knew what he was doing. gently caress him, Rosemary's Baby ain't worth it.

I don't think Polanski's filmography is so great that we should ignore his crimes or whatever, but this week I listened to the Unspooled episode for Chinatown and they read a letter(?) from Samantha Geimer (his most famous victim, which she would hate to be called) about her perspective on people avoiding his work, and it opened up my opinion. Personally, I think there's more room to discuss his works than ignore them. But he is an unforgiveable horrible piece of poo poo of a person, so I understand if we want to ignore him to save ourselves wrestling with all of it. There's plenty of other movies to watch outside of Knife in the Water, Repulsion, The Tenant and Rosemary's Baby.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Debbie Does Dagon posted:

I think with Landis and Polanski they're also already recognisable names, with filmographies full of well-worn classics. They don't need this thread to highlight their work. So for me they're not only lovely people, they're also taking up a spot that would be better used to explore a less well-known director/team.

Yeah, this is one of the best reasons to drop them.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

I am very glad Jack Hill got added.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

STAC Goat posted:

Total luck because I happened to watch Spider Baby last night.

His whole catalogue of exploitation films and grindhouse films are really good. I love Spider Baby.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Are we voting in a comment, or is there gonna be an actual formal vote for us to fill out?

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

My vote is for Dario Argento.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

married but discreet posted:

Argento I feel is going to really need that vote to survive - most of his best movies are out, his later output is absolutely dire and his early works are probably going to have a hard time with the anti-giallo fraction. He still has some absolute slappers of course but if he ends up with Stendhal Syndrome or some other vile poo poo he won't have my vote.

It was a hard decision, but I vouch for at least half of his films still in play, and two or three are favorites of mine.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Voted. Am proud.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Shrecknet posted:

Saló is a stupid loving movie that basically accuses the italian people of not fighting hard enough against fascism and arrives at "its your own fault"

Respectfully, I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.


TrixRabbi posted:

It's been a long time since I've seen it but I never got that sense from it. Honestly, the gross stuff wasn't what got to me, I have a strong enough stomach. I just find it an overwhelmingly sad film that exemplifies the powerlessness the victims of fascism endure.

This is closer to my experience, although the Circle of poo poo did get to me.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

married but discreet posted:

I say we make an "Other" team where a movie is drawn randomly from all the leftovers.

Basebf555 posted:

I like this idea

We can call it the Crab Bucket spot.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Basebf555 posted:

What about something more horror themed, like "The Void". You never know what's gonna emerge from The Void!

Crabs are horror!




I like The Void, too. It's a fun concept, no matter the name.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Great work STAC. You should be proud. This looks awesome.

I'm a big fan of glacial, and I'm happy it took the majority. Watching and discussing four films a week is plenty. I hope to also be able to do more research and reading before every write-up.

This is going to be fun.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

I've been meaning to watch Silver Bullets since I stumbled across it on Amazon Prime.

All three are new to me. Pretty excited to watch some schlock. I liked the first Urban Legends enough. This one seems to take a supernatural turn? Did Urban Legend 2 do a supernatural thing, too? The original is a standard human-killer slasher.

Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

Basebf555 posted:

I haven't seen it, so this isn't a spoiler, but I'm kinda assuming there will be a Scooby Doo aspect to the story where Bloody Mary ends up being some sort of ruse but who knows.

That feels like a safe assumption, since the original plays with a similar idea. I guess we'll find out!

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Franchescanado
Feb 23, 2013

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Grimey Drawer

I'll be upfront, I'm not going to watch Deodato's Last Cannibal World. I've read enough of the write-ups in here to know it's not worth my time right now. I think if a movie is so repugnant that the reviews all emphasize to not watch it, I think that's a reasonable aspect of this challenge. Deodato pulled a bad film, I've only got so much time in my life.

Mary Lambert's Urban Legends: Bloody Mary is a soft swing and miss. I think if the movie had stuck with it's initial premise--Final Destination, but with urban legends, at the hands of Bloody Mary instead of Death--we'd have a better film on our hands. Instead, half-way through the film, it decides it would also like to be The Ring, because the film has made Bloody Mary a vengeful ghost of a girl murdered in 1969, and needs a concise, straightforward way to tie up the film.


If I were making a movie called Bloody Mary, I am drat sure I will have a scene (in the background, maybe?) where people are trying to drink those ridiculously elaborate Bloody Mary cocktails.

It's interesting that the film was written by Michael Dougherty, of Trick r Treat, Krampus, and Godzilla: KotM (as well as some X-Men movies), as well as Dan Harris, who has collaborated with Dougherty on several scripts. This is their 2nd (filmed) script together, after X-2, which is usually considered to be pretty good for X-Men movies! What happened here?

If we are departing from the grounded premise of the first two films--a slasher where the killer uses urban legends as a framing device for their murders--and using the urban legend of Bloody Mary, why not just stick with the actual urban legend of Bloody Mary?

from "Lucifer Ascending: The Occult in Folklore and Popular Culture" by Bill Ellis posted:

Historically, the divination ritual encouraged young women to walk up a flight of stairs backward holding a candle and a hand mirror, in a darkened house. As they gazed into the mirror, they were supposed to be able to catch a view of their future husband's face. There was, however, a chance that they would see a skull (or the face of the Grim Reaper) instead, indicating that they were going to die before they would have the chance to marry.



In the ritual of today, Bloody Mary allegedly appears to individuals or groups who ritualistically invoke her name in an act of catoptromancy. This is done by repeatedly chanting her name into a mirror placed in a dimly-lit or candle-lit room. The name must be repeated three times (or seven, or thirteen, or some other arbitrary "spooky" number). Sometimes the evil spirit is known as Mary Worth, Hell Mary, Mary White, or Mary Jane. The Bloody Mary apparition allegedly appears as a corpse, witch or ghost that can be friendly or evil, and is sometimes seen covered in blood. The lore surrounding the ritual states that participants may endure the apparition screaming at them, cursing them, strangling them, stealing their soul, drinking their blood,[4] or scratching their eyes out.

The origins of Bloody Mary trace back to the 1700s, but became more popular in the 1990's, with the rise of the internet.

But wait. I thought that this had something to do with bathrooms? When I was in elementary school, we went into the bathroom, turned the lights off, and said Bloody Mary three times into a mirror. This comes from the myth of Hanako-san!

quote:

According to legend, Hanako-san is the spirit of a young girl who haunts school bathrooms, and can be described as a yōkai (made up of the kanji for "bewitching; attractive; calamity" and "spectre; apparition; mystery; suspicious."; they range from malevolent and mischievous entities believed to cause misfortune and harm, to those who are considered to bring good fortune to those who encounter them.) or a yūrei (made from two kanji, 幽 (yū), meaning "faint" or "dim" and 霊 (rei), meaning "soul" or "spirit"; analogous to the Western model of ghosts). The details of her physical appearance vary across different sources, but she is commonly described as having a bobbed haircut and as wearing a red skirt or dress. The details of Hanako-san's origins also vary depending on the account; in some versions, Hanako-san was a child who was murdered by a stranger or an abusive parent in a school bathroom; in other versions, she was a girl who committed suicide in a school bathroom; in still other versions, she was a child who lived during World War II, and who was killed in an air raid while hiding in a school bathroom during a game of hide-and-seek.



To summon Hanako-san, it is often said that individuals must enter a girls' bathroom (usually on the third floor of a school), knock three times on the third stall, and ask if Hanako-san is present. If Hanako-san is there, she will reply with some variation of "Yes, I am." Depending on the story, the individual may then witness the appearance of a bloody or ghostly hand; the hand, or Hanako-san herself, may pull the individual into the toilet, which may lead to Hell; or the individual may be eaten by a three-headed lizard who claims that the individual was invading Hanako’s privacy. The individual may also be left alone with no harm, but they may see Hanako-San in the mirrors next to them. Source 1Source 2



The legend of Hanako-san has been around since the 1950's, but became more popular in...the 1990's, with the rise of the internet. If it sounds familiar, it's because it's been influencing pop culture, ranging from Silent Hill to Harry Potter's Moaning Myrtle.

It seems like the two converged sometime in the 1960's, which is when Bloody Mary moved to the bathroom. Source

The 1990's spread the legend even further, and cemented it in pop culture, with the popularity of chain mail. E-mails started circulating with horror stories--what we now lamely call "creepypasta"--that were variations on this theme:

wildstyleangel79@hotmail.com posted:

When I was about nine years old, I went to a friend's for a birthday/slumber party. There were about 10 other girls there. About midnight, we decided to play Mary Worth. Some of us had never heard of this, so one of the girls told the story.
Mary Worth lived a long time ago. She was a very beautiful young girl. One day she had a terrible accident that left her face so disfigured that nobody would look at her. She had not been allowed to see her own reflection after this accident for fear that she would lose her mind. Before this, she had spent long hours admiring her beauty in her bedroom mirror.

One night, after everyone had gone to bed, unable to fight the curiosity any longer, she crept into a room that had a mirror. As soon as she saw her face, she broke down into terrible screams and sobs. It was at this moment that she was so heartbroken and wanted her old reflection back, she walked into the mirror to find it, vowing to disfigure anybody that came looking for her in the mirror.

After hearing this story, which was told very scarily, we decided to turn out all of the lights and try it. We all huddled around the mirror and starting repeating 'Mary Worth, Mary Worth, I believe in Mary Worth.'
About the seventh time we said it, one of the girls that was in front of the mirror started screaming and trying to push her way back away from the mirror. She was screaming so loud that my friend's mom came running into the room. She quickly turned on the lights and found this girl huddled in the corner screaming. She turned her around to see what the problem was and saw these long fingernail scratches running down her right cheek. I will never forget her face as long as I live!
Source


I bring this up because it's more fascinating and interesting than Mary Lambert's film. With Final Destination being a franchise for five years at the release of UL:BM, I don't know why they didn't just embrace the actual legends of Bloody Mary, and make a film about the inevitable repercussions of loving with dark spirits, with the conflict staying with the characters fearing for their lives, trying to avoid death, and searching for any possible way to break the curse they have cast upon themselves. Instead, the main badguy in a movie called Bloody Mary is...a step father?

There are some fascinating aspects of the film. I kind of appreciate the bisexual (or polysexual?) gaze of the film, that sexualizes both the male and female characters in the same way. The film has a low-key queerness, with the girls at the beginning playing a pillow fight in a softcore porn sort of feel, the tanning bed death is shown with the character's bulge and taint centered in frame, with the men's locker room talk consisting of the guys talking about each others physique. The only real man/woman sexual situation is two men working together to try and date rape during prom in the opening scene; it's less "let's take advantage of these hot girls" and a more psychosexual "how about we consummate our masculine bonding through the predatory act of brutalizing women together?".

I did like that the film seems to laugh at the audience for sexualizing a character, when a scene starts with the camera on Grace's legs, rear end, side-boobs and back, only to end with spiders erupting from her flesh and her face being sliced off by a broken mirror. This is everyone's favorite scene for a reason, because it actually feels thoughtful towards the audience and the film's premise. "It's all downhill from there", said Garbage Baby, as I chatted about the film in real-time in discord. They're right! The movie peaks so early, while it's at it's simplest and most fun. Even if the spiders look so silly, the scene works.

There seems to be a whole "the next generation will reap what the previous generation sowed" with the film's twist that Bloody Mary is killing the characters because their parents were the ones that tried to date rape her, leading to her death. But that doesn't really work in the context of 2005, like it would in 1980's. The world had really moved on from there. Again, Final Destination showed that fears had moved the teens of the era to fear the absurdity and unfairness of death, which makes a hell of a lot of sense in a post-911 world (yes, I know FD1 was 2000; I think it was prescient to what was in the air at the time). Urban Legends: Bloody Mary was already outdated before it even hit production, because it tries to take an evergreen fear--a vengeful ghost that kills those brave enough to risk their lives for a joke--and turn it into something that doesn't make that much sense.

I'm voting Silver Bullets, which is more deserving of analysis, but this post grew larger than I thought, so I will do another post on that.

Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Jan 7, 2021

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