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Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



chiasaur11 posted:

Yelena knew, but that doesn't mean all the volunteers knew. As Niccolo noted, Yelena's big into compartmentalization of information. You know what you need to know. And not many people would need to know about the sterilization plan.
In particular Onyankopon's speech about how the mere fact he was born is proof that God wanted people like him to exist seems like a pretty direct contradiction of Zeke's true ideology. I can imagine Zeke and Yelena would get people like him on board by framing their cause as one of racial justice and hiding their real plan.

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Eustace
Feb 26, 2009


Ksaver sounds like a regional dollar store chain

GATOS Y VATOS
Aug 22, 2002



Man, Isayama really hates Jews, doesn't he. It's depressing to me just how anti-Semitic this series is.

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



No?

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



Assuming you're doing the eldians = Jews thing 99% of all named characters are "jews." 2 of them have been shown to have extreme internalized "antisemitism" as a result of their wildly hosed up upbringing and life circumstances.

Attack on titan is certainly making a commentary on fascism and genocide and to dent that would be insane, but to say the show hasn't been sympathetic to the primary cast or that it puts forward a reasonable argument for their execution is, uh, not exactly true. What it has done is shown that combinations of life circumstances might bring a sympathetic character to hold those views but if you think Zeke is the good guy here or that we're still supposed to be rooting for eren I dunno what to tell you man

ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Mar 22, 2021

GATOS Y VATOS
Aug 22, 2002



Blood libel.

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



Yeah they sure do keep on bringing that topic up. I wonder what recent episodes might've had to say on the topic though. Perhaps there was a character deeply entrenched in that concept who got into an argument with a friend who's mom died who made some pretty compelling disagreements with the concept.

Alan_Shore
Dec 2, 2004



GATOS Y VATOS posted:

Man, Isayama really hates Jews, doesn't he. It's depressing to me just how anti-Semitic this series is.

Is this a joke lol

Alan_Shore
Dec 2, 2004



Do morons see characters wearing armbands and just start screeching JEWSSSSSS

Julias
Jun 24, 2012



GATOS Y VATOS posted:

Man, Isayama really hates Jews, doesn't he. It's depressing to me just how anti-Semitic this series is.

Please don't do this vague posting. If you think that there's something anti-semetic about the series to discuss, please provide examples and explain how it's anti-semetic.

Alan_Shore
Dec 2, 2004



GATOS Y VATOS posted:

Blood libel.

"The “blood libel” refers to a centuries-old false allegation that Jews murder Christians – especially Christian children – to use their blood for ritual purposes, such as an ingredient in the baking of Passover matzah"

Wait, who are the Christians in Attack on Titan? Marleyans? But it's Eldians eating Eldians. HOW DOES THIS WORK

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



Alan_Shore posted:

Do morons see characters wearing armbands and just start screeching JEWSSSSSS

I mean I'd be alarmed if people saw the armbands and didn't immediately start asking if the show had antisemitic messaging or not, that's definitely the kind of thing that should make you do a double take because it would be extremely easy for that to result in an antisemitic story

Luckily attack on titan is good and doesn't use the imagery to antisemitic ends. I kinda wish it was a little less blatant so it didn't look quite so bad out of context, but I do also really appreciate iseyama not trying to dance around it and just being upfront about what historical context the imagery is definitely supposed to evoke.

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



Oh I didnt realize that blood libel and blood curse are actually 2 entirely different antisemitic concepts lmao, I thought they were bringing up the blood curse thing

Toxic Fart Syndrome
Jul 2, 2006

*hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.




...the meter only goes to 3.6...



Pork Pro

Zeke's plan is dumb, anyways...Marley's whole crisis is that Titans are being surpassed by industrialization and it certainly isn't stopping the collateral damage.

Toxic Fart Syndrome
Jul 2, 2006

*hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.




...the meter only goes to 3.6...



Pork Pro

zeke gonna be real mad when eren's real plan is to go full Bender and kill all humans not just eldians

Alan_Shore
Dec 2, 2004



ninjewtsu posted:

I mean I'd be alarmed if people saw the armbands and didn't immediately start asking if the show had antisemitic messaging or not, that's definitely the kind of thing that should make you do a double take because it would be extremely easy for that to result in an antisemitic story

I get that but it's not just Jews who've been forced into ghettos/camps and had to wear marks/armbands. Muslims, Chinese, Japanese, just about every POW in history. So I think to see an armband and a ghetto and think "JEWS" is lazy at best


Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:

Zeke's plan is dumb, anyways...Marley's whole crisis is that Titans are being surpassed by industrialization and it certainly isn't stopping the collateral damage.

His whole plan is that he doesn't want to live. He thinks he's saving countless souls from the pain of living as an Eldian. Living is pain. Like Ksaver said. It's a recurring theme, life is cruel, life is pain. The difference between Zeke and say Mikasa/Armin is that they also see life as beautiful and worth fighting for. Eren did too... or still does

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



Ehhhhhh the 1930s Germany aesthetics really lock it in, I don't think there's really a ton of room to argue on that front. It's definitely intentional that iseyama wants you to be thinking about specifically jewish ghettos when it comes to the eldians in Marley

Alan_Shore
Dec 2, 2004



ninjewtsu posted:

Ehhhhhh the 1930s Germany aesthetics really lock it in, I don't think there's really a ton of room to argue on that front. It's definitely intentional that iseyama wants you to be thinking about specifically jewish ghettos when it comes to the eldians in Marley

I mean it's very possible. I dare not research anything on him or the show for spoilers. Has he talked about the parallels with Jews in WW2?

Saagonsa
Dec 29, 2012

It means everything.


GATOS Y VATOS posted:

Blood libel.

Do you wanna elaborate on that at all?

Toxic Fart Syndrome
Jul 2, 2006

*hits A-THREAD-5*

Only 3.6 Roentgoons per hour ... not great, not terrible.




...the meter only goes to 3.6...



Pork Pro

You guys realize that films like Jojo Rabbit and Life is Beautiful don't actually support Nazi ideology, despite containing significant Nazi iconography, right? Even if we accept the premise that the depiction of the Eldian ghettos is anti-Semitic, every main character that has been portrayed in a favorable light is Eldian? I think, at the worst, you could say this show sympathizes with a fantasy version of the Sonderkommando, which...uhhh...

Like, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter seem more anti-Semitic than AoT...

whalestory
Feb 9, 2004

hey ya'll!



Pillbug

Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:

You guys realize that films like Jojo Rabbit and Life is Beautiful don't actually support Nazi ideology, despite containing significant Nazi iconography, right? Even if we accept the premise that the depiction of the Eldian ghettos is anti-Semitic, every main character that has been portrayed in a favorable light is Eldian? I think, at the worst, you could say this show sympathizes with a fantasy version of the Sonderkommando, which...uhhh...

Like, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter seem more anti-Semitic than AoT...

Without looking it up i woulda guessed sonderkommando was someone who realized everyone around them was a commando

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

GATOS Y VATOS posted:

Blood libel.

Elaborate on this.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:

Zeke and Levi are almost completely opposite. Zeke sees other humans as tools: a means to an end. He feels no remorse or even spares a thought for the people he turns to Titans when dropped from the airship in S4E1 or when he Titanizes Levi’s new squad.

One of my lowkey favorite Levi moments is at the end of S2 when the scouts figure out that titans are transformed humans, and his reaction is to angrily muse about how all this time he's been going around killing people, then snap at Erwin for his completely inappropriate smile.

Phobophilia posted:

Levi thought Zeke a coward who'd go to his grave whimpering and pissing himself. He thought Zeke wouldn't have the guts. Of course, he would have been wrong either way, because a coward would sooner blow themselves up to end the suffering. But despite that, Levi was willing to take the risk, Zeke's spinal fluid was simply far too valuable.

While I'm sure large part of it was being extremely pissed off, and also having gotten a read on Zeke as a coward who'd cling to life on the hope of finding a way to turn things around, Levi's choice does make logical sense in the context of having only himself to watch over the prisoner: pinned with an explosive like that he's a dead man if he tries any surprise titan bullshit, and if he calls in new titans they won't be able to easily carry him away either.

The would've been to pin him to a dud, but I think it's an understandable mistake he made.

Alan_Shore
Dec 2, 2004



Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:

You guys realize that films like Jojo Rabbit and Life is Beautiful don't actually support Nazi ideology, despite containing significant Nazi iconography, right? Even if we accept the premise that the depiction of the Eldian ghettos is anti-Semitic, every main character that has been portrayed in a favorable light is Eldian? I think, at the worst, you could say this show sympathizes with a fantasy version of the Sonderkommando, which...uhhh...

Like, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter seem more anti-Semitic than AoT...

It's like 2 morons, no one here thinks that.


teagone posted:

Elaborate on this.

They will not be back, I'm pretty sure!

Maera Sior
Jan 5, 2012



Conspiratiorist posted:

One of my lowkey favorite Levi moments is at the end of S2 when the scouts figure out that titans are transformed humans, and his reaction is to angrily muse about how all this time he's been going around killing people, then snap at Erwin for his completely inappropriate smile.
"Eff this, I can't believe I was killing people like Kenny all this time."

SpartanIvy
May 18, 2007


Hair Elf

Maybe Eren's plan is the opposite and "If everybody's a Titan, no one will be!"

Rudoku
Jun 15, 2003

Damn I need a drink...




SpartanIvy posted:

Maybe Eren's plan is the opposite and "If everybody's a Titan, no one will be!"

Or just let him be the last Titan by saying "No Titans for anyone!"

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Rudoku posted:

Or just let him be the last Titan by saying "No Titans for anyone!"

Titans for some, miniature Eldian flags for others!

Vanderdeath
Oct 1, 2005

I will confess,
I love this cultured hell that tests my youth.





whalestory posted:

Xavier > Ksaver

Ksaver is just the Slavic version of Xavier. They're the same name

Also fun fact, the Japanese kana for both is Ksaver and Xavier are the same.

Vanderdeath fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Mar 23, 2021

Maera Sior
Jan 5, 2012



Ok, time for the rewatch thoughts:
- Eren is telling the truth about feelings from other shifters being passed down. He's also telling the truth about Mikasa having imprinted on him, or whatever you want to call it. Eren's lying about Mikasa having no will and that he's hated her, but it's a great way to force her into understanding that she doesn't have full control over her actions. He's lying about his will being his own, but we don't know to what degree he's aware of it.
- Armin's comment about Eren acting like a slave is the first time we've seen real emotion out of Eren all season. That one hit.
- Seems like while Zeke's connection can be felt by everyone connected through his spinal fluid, his commands only work within earshot.
- Not that any of us should have been surprised, but Grisha and Dina really were disaster parents.
- I'm ok if Levi died like that. He's one of the final veteran members of the Scouts and the story has moved past his thematic usefulness.

The Neal!
Sep 3, 2004

HAY GUYZ! I want to be a director

In retrospect is was very, very dumb to hook a guy who can regenerate up to an explosive, give that guy control of the explosive and then stand next to said explosive but to be fair to Levi I didn't see what happened coming until right when it happened too.

whalestory
Feb 9, 2004

hey ya'll!



Pillbug

Vanderdeath posted:

Ksaver is just the Slavic version of Xavier. They're the same name

Also fun fact, the Japanese kana for both is Ksaver and Xavier are the same.

That's so hosed up

GATOS Y VATOS
Aug 22, 2002



Alan_Shore posted:

"The “blood libel” refers to a centuries-old false allegation that Jews murder Christians – especially Christian children – to use their blood for ritual purposes, such as an ingredient in the baking of Passover matzah"

Wait, who are the Christians in Attack on Titan? Marleyans? But it's Eldians eating Eldians. HOW DOES THIS WORK

Did you miss the entire storyline of the Reiss family? A bloodline that ruled the world through brutal oppression and literally eating people? These are literally tropes that have been used against Jews for centuries. Never mind the mindless, giant nosed caricatures that consume everything in their path or Marleyans allowing "the good ones" to fight for their facist government etc.

Even if Isayama was using all the bad Jewish tropes in the world to say "See this is a bad thing that is done to them" he's doing it in the worst way possible.

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Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Yeah, there are parallels between the anti-Eldian propaganda and anti-Jewish myths. This has been clearly presented as a bad thing though, and I think it's difficult to construct a coherent anti-semitic reading of the series when basically every sympathetic character is part of the Jewish-coded race.

Fat and Useless
Sep 3, 2011

Not Thin and Useful




GATOS Y VATOS posted:

Did you miss the entire storyline of the Reiss family? A bloodline that ruled the world through brutal oppression and literally eating people? These are literally tropes that have been used against Jews for centuries. Never mind the mindless, giant nosed caricatures that consume everything in their path or Marleyans allowing "the good ones" to fight for their facist government etc.

Even if Isayama was using all the bad Jewish tropes in the world to say "See this is a bad thing that is done to them" he's doing it in the worst way possible.



3/10

The Reiss situation isn't blood libel and the titans are big nose jews thing is tired and wrong.

But hey, you are allowed to retake the test as many times as you want before Julias gets tried of this.

mightygerm
Jun 29, 2002





GATOS Y VATOS posted:

Did you miss the entire storyline of the Reiss family? A bloodline that ruled the world through brutal oppression and literally eating people?
Did you read the actual story? The Reiss family were pacifists that wanted to stop the cycle of hatred. Also brutal oppression was hardly the sole provenance of Eldians, the Marleyans were brutal imperialists as well. Oppression is not limited to a certain racial or ethnic group.

quote:

These are literally tropes that have been used against Jews for centuries. Never mind the mindless, giant nosed caricatures that consume everything in their path or Marleyans allowing "the good ones" to fight for their facist government etc.

I love how people use the one or two examples of titans with giant noses as some sort of own, when the vast majority of titans are just giant proportioned humans with normal structure. Also once again fascist governments conscripting the oppressed is a story told time and time again in history, its not even a particular significant part of the holocaust compared to the forced labor and death camps.

HiveCommander
Jun 19, 2012



GATOS Y VATOS posted:

Man, Isayama really hates Jews, doesn't he. It's depressing to me just how anti-Semitic this series is.
Still waiting on your supporting evidence for this statement

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



My hot take, also called 'Occam's Razor' argument:
I doubt Isayama has any anti-Jewish intentions, because in fact I doubt he has even known Jewish people, religion or culture personally. He is a Japan man who lives in Japan. The average Japanese knows barely a few things about Jews (if any at all!), with the source of information being a few Hollywood movies. Hell, I doubt there is any special pro- or anti- jewish movements or views in Japan in the first place. They are just a too small minority in the first place to even have an opinion of them. Even Christianity is a minority in Japan, same as Islamism.

People who does dumb takes as believing AoT is anti-jewish are forgetting that Japan is not USA, is not Europe or Russia or Middle East. They are forgetting how big is the world. Without the historical context, without the religion factor, etc, the same conditions for anti-jewish sentiments are almost impossible to take root. So your average Asiatic person isn't going to give three fucks about jews in the first place.



It's like some dumb takes I've read about race in x manga or anime, because some dumb American see everything through the race optics. In reality in at least a good amount of Asia they care much, much less about race, by virtue of the vast majority being the same race. On the other hand, they care much more about nationalism, both China, Korea and Japan are big into nationalism historically and all their past conflict. Some adaption change a character's skin color? Whatever. They change him from Chinese to Korean? Oh boy...

GATOS Y VATOS
Aug 22, 2002



Japan has many far-right nationalist political parties and nazi sympathizers but somehow they know nothing about Jews?

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Eustace
Feb 26, 2009


I think Onyakopon's line about different races existing because god wanted them to be born sums up AOT's thoughts about race and racism pretty well.

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