|
Broke: I am a historical social anthropologist of early modern central Europe; focusing on subcultures and violent conflict Woke: Guns go boom This is where we put the milhist posts. mod edit: Siivola's discord is here: https://discord.gg/sT375kR link to the old thread is here.
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Sep 22, 2023 08:45 |
|
|
This thread will represent a revolution in milhist posting discourse
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:31
|
|
|
Previous threads: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3297799 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3585027 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3785167 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3872282 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3896814
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:33
|
|
|
Come to the Milhist Thread! We have: -Tank Destroyers -Artillery Bears -People who desperately want to stop posting about tank destroyers and artillery bears
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:33
|
|
|
This time I'll keep up with the thread and follow it, says this fool.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:34
|
|
|
New thread! Another one for me to fall behind on. Does anyone have any book recommendations on the Maratha Empire, with a possible discussion of their navy?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:35
|
|
|
CommonShore posted:This thread will represent a revolution in milhist posting discourse Figure 1: Ye Olde Milhist Discourse 
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:35
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:Figure 1: Ye Olde Milhist Discourse Very sus
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:38
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:Figure 1: Ye Olde Milhist Discourse 
CommonShore fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Dec 6, 2020 |
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:42
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:-People who desperately want to stop posting about tank destroyers and artillery bears Who? Show yourselves, cowards!
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:43
|
|
|
To be fair that's a running joke from the one time that guy tried to claim they were a success, despite the vehicles all being provisional designs of necessity and cost, and the US abandoning tank destroyer doctrine immediately after the war.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:48
|
|
|
Musket party time.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:49
|
|
|
Are we still posting links to old effort posts? My one and only real contribution to this thread was my grandfather's WWII Combat Dope Sheets a couple of years ago. I can dig up the rest of the posts pretty easily.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:49
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:To be fair that's a running joke from the one time that guy tried to claim they were a success, despite the vehicles all being provisional designs of necessity and cost, and the US abandoning tank destroyer doctrine immediately after the war. In fairness US self-propelled* TDs actually did fairly well and the M18 stands out in particular in punching well above its weight, but that success mainly came from training and low-level unit tactics rather than the actual doctrine. *e: edit to emphasize the self-propelled TDs, as the towed guns were hot garbage that mainly served to get their crews killed
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:51
|
|
|
I would like some Military Revolution chat. What would happen if a European 15th century army faced an 18th century one? Was it a matter of an increase of overall state capacity, or was there a fundamental improvement in tactics?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:52
|
|
|
If we're posting effortposts/blogs, I have a few But let me start with a request: does anybody have a link to that history of the Taiping civil war?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:53
|
|
|
Also on the subject of flying and food, I've been told that USN blimps during WW2 had waffle irons onboard
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 20:56
|
|
|
Who wrote the effortpost about Nazi uniforms and why they sucked? One of my favourite things I've seen from this thread, it deserves to be on page one.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:01
|
|
|
How did the allies win world war 2 on the ground when faced with such superior german vehicles and discipline 
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:02
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:In fairness US self-propelled* TDs actually did fairly well and the M18 stands out in particular in punching well above its weight, but that success mainly came from training and low-level unit tactics rather than the actual doctrine. Towed anti-tank guns used by all nations quickly hit the point where a gun that could knock out any enemy tank was simply too heavy to push around the battlefield by hand. The solution to this was either to keep lighter guns that were still okay against most tanks (ZIS-3, 6-pounder) or go hog wild and hope there are enough tractors available to bail you out when you have to relocate (Pak 43). This led to some strange solutions after the war, like the Soviet gun with a motorcycle engine that could drive on its own, albeit very slowly and not very far. Edgar Allen Ho posted:How did the allies win world war 2 on the ground when faced with such superior german vehicles and discipline Very carefully
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:04
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:How did the allies win world war 2 on the ground when faced with such superior german vehicles and discipline Because the Germans' nice uniforms made it too difficult to drop their trousers, and they pissed their pants all the time
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:04
|
|
|
Mr Enderby posted:I would like some Military Revolution chat. What would happen if a European 15th century army faced an 18th century one? Was it a matter of an increase of overall state capacity, or was there a fundamental improvement in tactics? The 15th century army would get wrecked nearly every time I'm sure. Greater state capacity means the 18th century army is going to be much bigger, and I don't even know what the 15th century army is supposed to do against field artillery guarded by lines of musket infantry. March away I guess?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:07
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
Things that need salvaging from the previous threads list: Polycav's Iran/Iraq war summaries, Trin Tragula Great War stuff and the Polish-Soviet War effort posts from a thread or two back were great. How many of us have archives anyway? I can dig around if needed.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:10
|
|
|
Mr Enderby posted:I would like some Military Revolution chat. What would happen if a European 15th century army faced an 18th century one? Was it a matter of an increase of overall state capacity, or was there a fundamental improvement in tactics? Oh wow. In the first place by the eighteenth century the infrastructure is a lot better. Roads, nutrition of the populace, agricultural capacity...
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:10
|
|
|
Chamale posted:Who wrote the effortpost about Nazi uniforms and why they sucked? One of my favourite things I've seen from this thread, it deserves to be on page one. that's cessna, who wears them for fun (it's not what it looks like)
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:11
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:The 15th century army would get wrecked nearly every time I'm sure. Greater state capacity means the 18th century army is going to be much bigger, and I don't even know what the 15th century army is supposed to do against field artillery guarded by lines of musket infantry. March away I guess?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:11
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:The 15th century army would get wrecked nearly every time I'm sure. Greater state capacity means the 18th century army is going to be much bigger, and I don't even know what the 15th century army is supposed to do against field artillery guarded by lines of musket infantry. March away I guess? Withdraw into their impenetrable stone castles! Happy Finnish independence day, btw. Ask me anything about Mannerheim's knights or something 
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:12
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:that's cessna, who wears them for fun (it's not what it looks like) Doesn't Cessna also have a time share on a Soviet tank for reinacment purposes?
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:14
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:Oh wow. In the first place by the eighteenth century the infrastructure is a lot better. Roads, nutrition of the populace, agricultural capacity... Yes. It's true that 18th century Europeans are better at almost everything than 15th century Europeans. Their bureaucracies are more functional, courts are better, literacy rates are higher, governments are more accountable. But has there been a specific change in military capabilities, or is it just a matter of overall improvement?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:22
|
|
Mr Enderby posted:Yes. It's true that 18th century Europeans are better at almost everything than 15th century Europeans. Their bureaucracies are more functional, courts are better, literacy rates are higher, governments are more accountable. But has there been a specific change in military capabilities, or is it just a matter of overall improvement? Both.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:23
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:Withdraw into their impenetrable stone castles! <Salivates Orbanly>
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:26
|
|
|
actual footage of the eidgenossen militia preparing for the battle of morgarten: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOBiTwYRSzs&t=7s please note that at the time the two foes did not recognize an ethnic difference like we do today, so what appears to our modern eyes to be an austrian is really a schwyzer halbredier
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:31
|
|
|
Chamale posted:Because the Germans' nice uniforms made it too difficult to drop their trousers, and they pissed their pants all the time One of my favorite thread moments was also that effort post as it had me imagining a group of German's sewing uniforms as fast as possible before the T-34s crush them. "sew faster hans!"
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:34
|
|
|
I found Cessna's excellent uniform posts from two threads ago.Cessna posted:It's a baggy cotton duck (Edit: with increasing rayon/synthetic content as the war goes on) smock with elastic at the waist and wrists. Cessna posted:I've had my hands on originals, and they're sooooo bad. The smock is that canvas-y duck material. It does NOT breathe at all; it's like a canvas trash bag. So your Nazi soldier is wearing: Cessna posted:[what dye and mordant did they use, i might be able to tell if that would have happened] Cessna posted:[holy loving hell! i'm remembering all those holocaust survivor testimonies where the old hands sneak up behind the author during intake and whisper to them "tell them you're a tailor" and it saves their life! i thought just yeah, useful skills, pretend to have useful skills, but there was a specific reason the SS wanted tailors] Cessna posted:[germans! Cessna posted:No, sorry... Cessna posted:[this is the most German poo poo of all time] Cessna posted:The stahlhelm - and so help me, now I prefer the term "naughty German helmet" - WAS a bad way to go. It required vastly more labor to produce, and it wasn't really that much better than comparable helmets of the time. Cessna posted:In 1939 the Iron and Steel Specialty Division of the Third Reich Research Council (don't make me type it out in German) tested a bunch of helmets from other countries, some captured, some purchased pre-war. They found that none of the helmets were ideal for protection or ease of manufacture. In 1942 they designed a new helmet that had really good ballistic protection and was easy to make. This was initially designed "on the down low," but the design was so good that they decided to show off the results to Hitler. Hitler liked it, but vetoed production because it didn't look German enough. Cessna posted:[https://www.tankarchives.ca/2017/08/whose-helmet-was-better.html] Cessna posted:The rationale was that they didn't want the "little guy/big helmet" look, so their soldiers wouldn't end up looking like Dark Helmet from Spaceballs. And it goes back to the "tailored" mentality behind uniforms. Cessna posted:[honestly my takeaway from this all this uniform chat is that fashion considerations play a larger role in military uniform design than most people realize]
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 21:48
|
|
]
|
 This needs to be on every first page of every thread I'd also like to encourage all the lurkers who feel intimidated by big hulking megathreads to get stuck in and just ask whatever's on your mind about military history.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 22:07
|
|
|
Ensign Expendable posted:Towed anti-tank guns used by all nations quickly hit the point where a gun that could knock out any enemy tank was simply too heavy to push around the battlefield by hand. The solution to this was either to keep lighter guns that were still okay against most tanks (ZIS-3, 6-pounder) or go hog wild and hope there are enough tractors available to bail you out when you have to relocate (Pak 43). This led to some strange solutions after the war, like the Soviet gun with a motorcycle engine that could drive on its own, albeit very slowly and not very far. While this is obviously all true, US towed guns stand out as being especially bad. For those who don't know: US TD doctrine was created as a reaction to the fall of France. Specially trained and equipped TD units (Both towed and self-propelled) would be held in reserve to react to armored breakthroughs, using high strategic and tactical mobility to position themselves in key defensive positions to defeat enemy armor. As a strategic doctrine, this failed for more then a few reasons. By the time the US was in Europe, the Germans weren't exactly conducting armored offensives, and it didn't make sense to hold back perfectly good guns and tanks to wait for an offensive that would never come. So the TD units were sent out onto the battlefield, with differing results. The self-propelled guns (Mainly the M10, M18, and M36) generally perfomed well. While these vehicles were all flawed to varrying degrees (the lack of a roof stands out in particular), they were reliable, packed decent guns, and the M18 in particular had excellent tactical mobility that the well-trained crews were able to make the most of. By contrast, the towed guns were a disaster. These units were equipped with M5 3 inch guns, the same weapon found on the M10. The AT performance of this weapon was good in 1942-43 but barely adequate for 1944 - and this was made worse by the sheer physical bulk of the gun, originally designed in 1918, and exacerbated by the also-overly large gun carriage it was mounted to (originally designed for the M2 Howitzer). This meant that by late 1944, the towed TD units were equipped with a gun that was massive, barely mobile, and had relatively weak AT performance - so that when the TD doctrine was finally put to the test at the Battle of the Bulge, the towed gun units were mostly slaughtered (while the SPGs performed admirably). After the Bulge, pretty much all the towed guns were converted to self-propelled units, for obvious reasons. Outside of the specialized TD units, US AT guns generally lagged about a generation behind everyone else. While the Germans were using the 75mm PaK 40 and the Brits were using the 76mm 17 pounder, the standard US AT gun was still the 57mm M1, adapted from the British 6 pounder. And even up to December 1944, the US was *still* using the completely obsolete 37mm M3. Granted, this all didn't matter a whole hell of a lot. The US had enough Shermans, artillery, tank destroyers, and bazookas that infantry units were rarely lacking for anti-tank protection, and outside of the Bulge German armor offensives were fairly rare on the Western front. So the US could afford to have a nonsensical doctrine and bad AT guns, because we were doing well enough in other areas that outside of a handful of engagements it didn't really matter (though obviously it sucked a whole hell of a lot of the guys who were in those engagements)
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 22:13
|
|
|
hahahaha the germans packing their helmets like expensive chocolates hahahahaha
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 22:15
|
|
quote:Hey, if it means anything, their early-war paratroopers had it worse. Their Fallschirmjagers (paratroopers, and I'm too lazy to put the umlaut over the "a") were set up to jump from low altitudes. They wore a distinctive jumper-outfit over their gear, the idea being that it would keep their gear from snagging on anything parachute-related when they jumped. To quote a fictional grown man in a Butterfly villain costume: quote:Nice onesie, dick. Does it have snaps in the back so you can make poopie?
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 22:26
|
|
|
Trin Tragula posted:
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 22:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Sep 22, 2023 08:45 |
|
|
Hello new thread! Didn't catch up with the old one and this was probably covered but did we have a discussion of the recent military history of Ethiopia? I was curious what the current conflict looks like and why it's apparently due to something dating back to the civil war.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2020 23:35
|
|
