Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

It would be a sad error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse.


Clapping Larry

SerthVarnee posted:


This one is probably more what you are looking for, even though it is being posted in a frustrating manner:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/i-found-my-91-year-old-fathers-us-navy-aircraft-carrier-diary-world-war-ii-100777

Disclaimer: NI Poster confuses Bettys for Vals.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Phanatic posted:

If they claim they shot down only double what they actually did, that's probably a pretty modest overestimate.

Yeah didn't we just have that discussion here, and the "average" overclaim ratio was like 5:1 (again, for eminently sensible reasons)? North Vietnamese came away with a very good estimate at only 2:1.

Tias
May 25, 2008

Deyr fe,
deyja fraendr,
deyr sjalfr it sama,
ek veit einn,
at aldrei deyr:
domr um daudan hvern.


Slightly off-topic, but you'll get a kick out of this: Strongman farmer accidentally yeets the border of Belgium and France 7.5 feet:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56978344?fbclid=IwAR2hkm5dmFzlTKxD-lXv7zoIfj-JAkYJ-XAZ4VWbiw2x76fUiwopjywi6UE

karoshi
Nov 4, 2008

"Can somebody mspaint eyes on the steaming packages? TIA" yeah well fuck you too buddy, this is the best you're gonna get. Is this even "work-safe"? Let's find out!


Tias posted:

Slightly off-topic, but you'll get a kick out of this: Strongman farmer accidentally yeets the border of Belgium and France 7.5 feet:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56978344?fbclid=IwAR2hkm5dmFzlTKxD-lXv7zoIfj-JAkYJ-XAZ4VWbiw2x76fUiwopjywi6UE

How hard should France glass Belgium to maintain a credible deterrence?

e: Brussels is full of European bureaucrats, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

karoshi fucked around with this message at 18:16 on May 4, 2021

Deptfordx
Dec 23, 2013



Hannibal Rex posted:

It's already been a while since you made that post, and I have to fully agree. However, that is not because I think random youtubers produce quality content. It's because there's a ton of absolutely stellar lectures and discussions by professional historians freely available on Youtube. If you know who the leading names in whichever field or time period that interests you are, Youtube is a great way to get content that's far, far more in-depth than anything you will get even from the best made TV documentaries. You can get unadulterated Glantz, Browning, Tooze, Kotkin, etc., all just a search away.


Find yourself a youtube to mp3 converter online and you can get yourself a load of podcasts as well. Obviously this doesn't work for image intensive lectures.

Phanatic
Mar 13, 2007

Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.


karoshi posted:

e: Brussels is full of European bureaucrats, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

Just leave Bruges alone, please. And pay for Cantillon and 3Fonteinen to relocate.

Tias
May 25, 2008

Deyr fe,
deyja fraendr,
deyr sjalfr it sama,
ek veit einn,
at aldrei deyr:
domr um daudan hvern.


I really like how representatives from both states are like 'haha what a darling mistake, but no, seriously, put it back'

Saukkis
May 16, 2003

Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.

Tias posted:

I really like how representatives from both states are like 'haha what a darling mistake, but no, seriously, put it back'

I hope he's uncooperative, just so we can see the border commission at work.

sullat
Jan 8, 2012


I did not realize that the border was attached to the stone, like some bureaucratic ley line.

A Festivus Miracle
Dec 19, 2012

I have come to discourse on the profound inequities of the American political system.



sullat posted:

I did not realize that the border was attached to the stone, like some bureaucratic ley line.

The US-Canada border is a cleared vegetation right-of-way between the two countries that extends for thousand of miles. It also bends like crazy and accidentally puts riverine islands half-way into the States/Canada, but it's very literally marked out.

Chamale
Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!





Just a real-life version of this comedy sketch: Moving The Border

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

sullat posted:

I did not realize that the border was attached to the stone, like some bureaucratic ley line.

VERY broadly speaking property boundaries are laid out on the ground, generally with natural features or monumentation (like that stone), then the boundaries are described in a legal document like a land plat which is somehow approved and accepted by the relevant government agency.

(I am not 100% sure if this is the way international borders work, but this is how all property in the USA, Canada, and the UK works. I suspect there's a similar system in place here.)

Moving the stone won't really move the border as it is specified in the legal description, but it will make things confusing and annoying if anyone ever needs to check it for any reason. ("The legal says the monument should be here, but it's over there, WTF.")

My job involves land survey work, I can talk all day long about this is you like.

Cessna fucked around with this message at 14:04 on May 5, 2021

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



No, European borders are actually physically tied to border stones. This has led to occasional problems, like one time a Japanese tourist took a stone as a souvenir and now part of the Hungary-Romanian border extends to Hokkaido.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



Nenonen posted:

No, European borders are actually physically tied to border stones. This has led to occasional problems, like one time a Japanese tourist took a stone as a souvenir and now part of the Hungary-Romanian border extends to Hokkaido.

All hail Greater Magyarul

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Nenonen posted:

No, European borders are actually physically tied to border stones.

That's a terrible system.

It beggars belief that there isn't some sort of legal description.

Cessna fucked around with this message at 14:52 on May 5, 2021

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

In tl;dr terms - when you buy a piece of property you either accept a prior survey or have it resurveyed.

Land surveyors come out to the property and measure it to make sure it is laid out as it is described on the deed.

This is the "legal description;" it describes the location and the boundaries of the property. This is kept with/is part of the deed and is filed with a government agency, like a county clerk. This is what a legal description looks like:



In brief, what it's saying is "start at this defined place, then go to the property, then go around it to make a polygon of the boundary." (There's more to a real one, but you get the idea.)

If someone went out and moved the fence around the property it would not change where the property is, because the fence would no longer agree with the legal description. The property owner would have to go move the fence back to comply with the legal.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't some sort of legal or treaty or boundary agreement between France and Belgium that describes the placement of the monuments but is in fact the legal agreement between the two nations.

A few posts ago the US/Canada border was mentioned. There's an agency, the International Boundary Commission, that maintains the border. This border also uses monuments - like the French/Belgian one - but the placement of the monuments is defined by the "International Treaty" (of 1908) which includes (in an appendix) a legal description of the monuments. If a monument was moved, they'd move it back to comply with the treaty, but the border itself would not move.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



I think Nenonen was being sarcastic

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

It would be a sad error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse.


Clapping Larry

Lichtenstein exists due to a rounding error but everyone is too embarrassed about it to fix it.

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Gaius Marius posted:

I think Nenonen was being sarcastic


Yeah, sorry. I deal with this sort of thing all day long at work, so I sorta spiraled into pedantry there.

I get "but boss, the fence isn't where it should be" calls too often.

Zorak of Michigan
Jun 10, 2006

Waiting for his chance

Cessna posted:

Yeah, sorry. I deal with this sort of thing all day long at work, so I sorta spiraled into pedantry there.

These are my favorite sorts of posts.

iv46vi
Apr 2, 2010


Cessna posted:

Yeah, sorry. I deal with this sort of thing all day long at work, so I sorta spiraled into pedantry there.

I get "but boss, the fence isn't where it should be" calls too often.

Does the modern GPS not have enough resolution to be useful as a replacement for boundary descriptions?

VictualSquid
Feb 29, 2012

Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.


Cessna posted:

In tl;dr terms - when you buy a piece of property you either accept a prior survey or have it resurveyed.

Land surveyors come out to the property and measure it to make sure it is laid out as it is described on the deed.

This is the "legal description;" it describes the location and the boundaries of the property. This is kept with/is part of the deed and is filed with a government agency, like a county clerk. This is what a legal description looks like:



In brief, what it's saying is "start at this defined place, then go to the property, then go around it to make a polygon of the boundary." (There's more to a real one, but you get the idea.)

If someone went out and moved the fence around the property it would not change where the property is, because the fence would no longer agree with the legal description. The property owner would have to go move the fence back to comply with the legal.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't some sort of legal or treaty or boundary agreement between France and Belgium that describes the placement of the monuments but is in fact the legal agreement between the two nations.

A few posts ago the US/Canada border was mentioned. There's an agency, the International Boundary Commission, that maintains the border. This border also uses monuments - like the French/Belgian one - but the placement of the monuments is defined by the "International Treaty" (of 1908) which includes (in an appendix) a legal description of the monuments. If a monument was moved, they'd move it back to comply with the treaty, but the border itself would not move.
That "right of way line" sounds awfully physical. What happens to the deed of the line gets moved?

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




VictualSquid posted:

That "right of way line" sounds awfully physical. What happens to the deed of the line gets moved?

The ROW is defined on other documents that are probably held by the county, usually in relation to USGS survey markers or freeways or some other datum.

Ensign Expendable
Nov 11, 2008

Lager beer is proof that god loves us


Pillbug

iv46vi posted:

Does the modern GPS not have enough resolution to be useful as a replacement for boundary descriptions?

Precision of civilian GPS is artificially limited. You're probably looking at 3-4 meters of error according to this link: https://gis.stackexchange.com/questions/43617/what-is-the-maximum-theoretical-accuracy-of-gps

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

It would be a sad error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse.


Clapping Larry

Ensign Expendable posted:

Precision of civilian GPS is artificially limited. You're probably looking at 3-4 meters of error according to this link: https://gis.stackexchange.com/questions/43617/what-is-the-maximum-theoretical-accuracy-of-gps

Not to mention you'd want a paper trail regardless.

Space Gopher
Jul 31, 2006

BLITHERING IDIOT AND HARDCORE DURIAN APOLOGIST. LET ME TELL YOU WHY THIS SHIT DON'T STINK EVEN THOUGH WE ALL KNOW IT DOES BECAUSE I'M SUPER CULTURED.


Ensign Expendable posted:

Precision of civilian GPS is artificially limited. You're probably looking at 3-4 meters of error according to this link: https://gis.stackexchange.com/questions/43617/what-is-the-maximum-theoretical-accuracy-of-gps

Selective availability, the system that introduced artificial error to civilian receivers and restricted high-precision GPS to military receivers, was disabled in 2000. Newer (Block III) GPS satellites aren’t even capable of turning it back on.

https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/sa/

It’s possible to get centimeter-level accuracy out of GPS with differential systems, that basically measure local error caused by things like ionospheric weather and provide a feed of corrections. But, to measure that error, you need to have a fixed and well-defined reference point in the first place - and it has to be relatively close, or you lose accuracy. So it’s not very useful for defining borders in the middle of nowhere.

Ensign Expendable
Nov 11, 2008

Lager beer is proof that god loves us


Pillbug

That's what I get for not reading anything covering events that took place after 1945.

AmbassadorofSodomy
Dec 30, 2016

SUCK A MALE CAMEL'S DICK WITH MIRACLE WHIP!!


Space Gopher posted:

Selective availability, the system that introduced artificial error to civilian receivers and restricted high-precision GPS to military receivers, was disabled in 2000. Newer (Block III) GPS satellites aren’t even capable of turning it back on.

https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/sa/

It’s possible to get centimeter-level accuracy out of GPS with differential systems, that basically measure local error caused by things like ionospheric weather and provide a feed of corrections. But, to measure that error, you need to have a fixed and well-defined reference point in the first place - and it has to be relatively close, or you lose accuracy. So it’s not very useful for defining borders in the middle of nowhere.

Some of those units that are accurate to within centimetres are also expensive as all hell. Like the average person out camping or backpacking isn't buying a GPS thats in the tens of thousands of dollars range.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Aren't there national borders that are defined by, e.g. rivers, though? What happens when the river moves?

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



iv46vi posted:

Does the modern GPS not have enough resolution to be useful as a replacement for boundary descriptions?

Yes, until Kessler effect actuates.

Regarding historic border treaties, sometimes the details were, shall we say, sketchy. Such as the first treaty between Sweden and Novgorod:

quote:

The original text of the treaty has been lost. It has survived in partial copies in Russian, Swedish, and Latin, which are somewhat conflicting.[9]

The treaty was negotiated with the help of Hanseatic merchants in order to conclude the Swedish-Novgorodian Wars. As a token of goodwill, Novgorod ceded three Karelian parishes to Sweden; Sweden would in turn stay out of any conflict between Novgorod and Narva. Both sides would also promise to refrain from building castles on the new border.[citation needed]

The treaty defined the border as beginning east and north of Viborg Castle, running along the Sestra and Volchya Rivers, splitting the Karelian Isthmus in half, running across Savonia and, according to traditional interpretations, ending in the Gulf of Bothnia near the Pyhäjoki River. However the wording "the sea in the north" can as well mean the Arctic Ocean.[10]

Only the southern part of the border, close to Viborg, was actually considered important and clearly defined in the treaty. Borders in the wilderness were defined very roughly, and presumably considered less important than the line across the Karelian Isthmus. It has also been suggested that the treaty would have originally given both Sweden and Novgorod joint rights to northern Ostrobothnia and Lappland.[11]



Red line is the part of the border that we know for sure. North of this everything was wilderness with few people who didn't give a toss about borders. Except over time more people would settle there to avoid heavy taxation in the more central areas, making the wilderness region more attractive to the kings of Sweden, leading to new conflicts!

Cessna
Feb 20, 2013

KHABAHBLOOOM

Space Gopher posted:

It’s possible to get centimeter-level accuracy out of GPS with differential systems, that basically measure local error caused by things like ionospheric weather and provide a feed of corrections. But, to measure that error, you need to have a fixed and well-defined reference point in the first place - and it has to be relatively close, or you lose accuracy. So it’s not very useful for defining borders in the middle of nowhere.

Exactly.

And as such, you're still using the "old" system. You start at a monument (that "fixed and well defined reference point") then use bearings and distances to go to the property, then describe the property.

Fangz posted:

Aren't there national borders that are defined by, e.g. rivers, though? What happens when the river moves?

Again, you go to the legal description. That's what defines the border, not the river.

If the river moves, the legal description still defines the border unless you renegotiate and re survey the border, which doesn't always happen.

There are plenty of borders between US States where the river has shifted - the legal still defines the border even though the river moved:

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



Presumably the old river bed also continues to exist so you still have a natural geographic reference.

Due to land rising the Kvarken between Sweden and Finland will become a land bridge in the next 2000 years, isolating the northernmost gulf of Baltic Sea into a lake. This shouldn't be a problem from border treaty POV, assuming that same borders still applied in a.d. 4000 which is rather doubtful.

aphid_licker
Jan 7, 2009

eyebrowse


Pillbug

Nenonen posted:

Presumably the old river bed also continues to exist so you still have a natural geographic reference.

Due to land rising the Kvarken between Sweden and Finland will become a land bridge in the next 2000 years, isolating the northernmost gulf of Baltic Sea into a lake. This shouldn't be a problem from border treaty POV, assuming that same borders still applied in a.d. 4000 which is rather doubtful.

Wow, just how fast is this thing rising / how deep is it now?? That sounds like it's going multiple millimetres a year.

e: it's only 25m deep apparently, but still, that's a hefty rate of movement for a bit of sea bottom.

e:

quote:

In 2006, parts of the Kvarken Archipelago were added as an extension to the World Heritage Site of the High Coast (located on the western shore of the Gulf of Bothnia) in Sweden, because it is “continuously rising from the sea in a process of rapid glacio-isostatic uplift, whereby the land, previously weighed down under the weight of a glacier, lifts at rates that are among the highest in the world. As a consequence of the advancing shoreline, islands appear and unite, peninsulas expand, lakes evolve from bays and develop into marshes and peat fens. This property is essentially a ‘type area’ for research on isostasy; the phenomenon having been first recognized and studied here.”[2] Most Finnish parts of the High Coast/Kvarken Archipelago World Heritage Site are situated in the Korsholm municipality.

That's wild.

aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 18:21 on May 5, 2021

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



iv46vi posted:

Does the modern GPS not have enough resolution to be useful as a replacement for boundary descriptions?

It is widely used for boundary surveying, particularly in remote areas, but it's not a replacement. In particular because cm level positioning is differential, it's typically done with RTK, with your base station over a known point in the cadastral network.

thepopmonster
Feb 18, 2014




iv46vi posted:

Does the modern GPS not have enough resolution to be useful as a replacement for boundary descriptions?

Also, GPS is defined relative to a fixed model, so your property will shift slightly relative to it's "actual" boundaries due to continental drift (between 3 and 0.5 inches/year depending on plate - it's fastest in Australia, apparently) and other earth-moving experiences (https://darksky2500.medium.com/hollister-58b77e02facb). https://gis.stackexchange.com/questions/137192/does-gps-correct-for-continental-drift looks like it might lead to some more detail if you still care.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



While that's true, the actual drifts of the continents relative to WGS84 are extremely well understood and it's mathematically straightforward (the biggest problem normally is figuring out what datum various input positions were in to begin with) to convert from the global datum to a local plate fixed one. For real time applications that's normally resolved by using differential corrections from a base station nearby, but it can also be done without a local base.

That said, this is all extremely non-Milhist at this point, so come ask more questions in the GPS Megathread

PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 18:52 on May 5, 2021

iv46vi
Apr 2, 2010


Thank you all and sorry for the derail. To connect it to the military topic would you need more that 3 inches of American naval vessel to cross into Chinese territorial waters before scrambling interception jets? Please disregard super villain submarine in this scenario.

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




iv46vi posted:

Thank you all and sorry for the derail. To connect it to the military topic would you need more that 3 inches of American naval vessel to cross into Chinese territorial waters before scrambling interception jets? Please disregard super villain submarine in this scenario.

I'll spot you the submarine, but only if I get to keep the remote controlled rocket powered torpedo with the drill-head.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006


re: borders

I'm going to go full grad student and say that they are cultural constructs.

The only reason I'm mentioning this is that once in a while it's important to sit back and think about what, exactly, the phrase "cultural construct" means.

It doesn't mean that it's bullshit, or unimportant. Tons of things that are insanely important to people's day to day lived experiences are cultural constructs. Gender and race to name two obvious hot button issues.

But what it means is that there isn't some natural, immutable property that defines it. It is whatever we all agree that it is. The beaver and bears and moose don't know or care what the gently caress the Canada - US border is. But if you're a human? That poo poo's important because of the cultural context of things like taxes and laws and import regulations etc.

Which is all to say that borders are inherently arbitrary and exist only as a mutually agreed upon delineation of where one sovereign's (or government's in a post french revolution era) regulations end and another's' begin. The only reason upstate New York is New York and not Ontario or Quebec is because of a few centuries of history and culture that culminate in Tim Hortons only being in one place and not another.

All of which tl;dr's down to the location of a specific rock marking where one person's patch begins and another's ends being both incredibly meaningless and profoundly, incredibly important and worth fighting wars over.

Welcome to history, people are complex and irrational and that isn't good or bad it's just a thing.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Cyrano4747 posted:

The only reason upstate New York is New York and not Ontario or Quebec is because of a few centuries of history and culture that culminate in Tim Hortons only being in one place and not another.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply