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FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?





howe_sam posted:

Rolling Stone has done an oral history of WandaVision and published an excerpt. tl;dr they originally did plan for Cumberbatch to appear, but changed their mind for all the reasons you might expect.
It would have been interesting if those fake commercials ended up being important beyond referencing some things that had happened in Wanda's life

I really did expect Strange to appear since they made it very clear that this was going to tie directly into Dr Strange 2.

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live with fruit
Aug 15, 2010


tsob posted:

What counts as regular, out of interest? I'd have thought W'Kabi, Nakia etc count personally, since they didn't obtain their position by birthright and were not part of the leadership or monarchy. Are they discounted because they're part of the military?

People with personal relationships with the king are not regular people.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


live with fruit posted:

People with personal relationships with the king are not regular people.

Why? Does being friends with someone in power void everything else about their life and lived experience? Nakia even calls out T'Challa and Wakanda in general for failing to use their means to do more for the rest of world in the film.

Marsupial Ape
Dec 15, 2020

...big ol' thick pumpernickel...


Ravel posted:

They are completely impotent to prevent Killmonger doing what he wants to do. I'm not sure how much more evidence is needed - an all powerful sovereign is great when that individual is super ethical. Otherwise it's a poor system of governance and the film shows this directly in text. There are no checks on his ability to destroy the heart shaped herbs nor to start a war with practically the entire world.

Thank gently caress that has never, ever, ever happened in a post monarchy modern government. I mean, could you even imagine? Thank gently caress it’s only pre democratic and socialist governments that can easily spiral out of control into authoritarian autocracies. Whew.

Spacebump
Dec 23, 2003

Dallas Mavericks: Generations


howe_sam posted:

Rolling Stone has done an oral history of WandaVision and published an excerpt. tl;dr they originally did plan for Cumberbatch to appear, but changed their mind for all the reasons you might expect.

The Strange stuff mentioned here sounds like it could have been better.

Casnorf
Jun 14, 2002

Never drive a car when you're a fish

tsob posted:

Why? Does being friends with someone in power void everything else about their life and lived experience?
Only when it provides context that might make my windmill tilting less clear. Remember, context is for kings, and monarchy == bad

live with fruit
Aug 15, 2010


tsob posted:

Why? Does being friends with someone in power void everything else about their life and lived experience? Nakia even calls out T'Challa and Wakanda in general for failing to use their means to do more for the rest of world in the film.

They're elites. They both represented their tribes on the waterfall. Which is why they have personal relationships with the king. We have no idea what life is like for Wakandans who don't personally know the king.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


They're elite through merit rather than birthright from what we're told. Nakia is there because she's the best warrior of her tribe rather than because she's related to the nobility of her tribe, if I recall.

Marsupial Ape
Dec 15, 2020

...big ol' thick pumpernickel...


They have public transportation and cool hats. Literal utopia.

Retrowave Joe
Jul 20, 2001



Cage Kicker posted:

So...no Wakandan Megazord then I take it

Bucky does have a bit of a Tommy vibe going on.

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




Marsupial Ape posted:

They have public transportation and cool hats. Literal utopia.

Ravel
Dec 23, 2009

There's no story


Not really sure why people are so averse to criticism of Black Panther that they're defending the idea of monarchy as a viable system of government.

There was a whole Coates run of Black Panther which criticised the same thing. Monarchies are poor systems of governance. Just because modern democracies have severe failings doesn't mean that monarchies were ever better. Explicitly in the Black Panther franchise the monarchy and succession process failed its people and they launched a coup to restore order.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


Ravel posted:

Not really sure why people are so averse to criticism of Black Panther that they're defending the idea of monarchy as a viable system of government.

No-one is adverse to it; they're just refuting that the film presents it as an explicit problem. Adverse implies people are trying to stop someone complaining at all. Which is not what's happening. As is, the use of monarchy serves the narrative function it was intended for, and that's fine. It doesn't need to be a shining model of government for the real world, because it's just a film. If Wakanda was a democracy, (roughly) the same problems would happen because they need to for the sake of drama.

tsob fucked around with this message at 23:44 on May 3, 2021

Marsupial Ape
Dec 15, 2020

...big ol' thick pumpernickel...


Ravel posted:

Not really sure why people are so averse to criticism of Black Panther that they're defending the idea of monarchy as a viable system of government.

Do you honestly think we’re doing anything but amusing ourselves at the expense of your misplaced earnestness?

Also, in your critiques of monarchies, you seem to be unintentionally Western Chauvinist and disregarding the success of the Chinese Imperial Dynasties. 2000+ years is pretty loving stable.

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




Ravel posted:

There was a whole Coates run of Black Panther which criticised the same thing.

Ta-Nehisi Coates is Black.

AngryBooch
Sep 26, 2009


Bleck posted:

Ta-Nehisi Coates is Black.

yes and?

a Loving Dog
May 12, 2001


Bleck posted:

Ta-Nehisi Coates is Black.

Ms. Lippy’s car, is green.

Cage Kicker
Feb 20, 2009

End of the fiscal year, bitch.
MP's got time to order pens for year year, hooah?


SKILCRAFT KREW Reppin' Quality Blind Made





Lipstick Apathy

Retrowave Joe posted:

Bucky does have a bit of a Tommy vibe going on.

That's exactly where I was going with this lmfao, White Wolf, new ranger....writes itself

Casnorf
Jun 14, 2002

Never drive a car when you're a fish

Marsupial Ape posted:

Do you honestly think we’re doing anything but amusing ourselves at the expense of your misplaced earnestness?

Also, in your critiques of monarchies, you seem to be unintentionally Western Chauvinist and disregarding the success of the Chinese Imperial Dynasties. 2000+ years is pretty loving stable.

I'm assuming you're familiar with the concept of water empires. Stability is a nice thing but few things that last that long are terribly capable of handling anything even remotely resembling an outside context problem. Which, hilariously, is exactly what Killmonger is -- someone who is willing to abuse the political systems put into place with the expectation of benevolence. That last bit is key. Any system built upon the expectation of benevolence is gonna run into exactly the same problems precisely because cross purposes are outside its own context.

Now, before you go arguing about the pedantics of outside context as being broadly relevant to anything the system's builders didn't foresee, I'll grant that immediately with the caveat that it is entirely possible to defend against unknown exploits as long as you have some idea of what category of defense is required, so a wide set of rules specifically to ensure malevolence has a great deal of trouble breaking through to the juicy core of governance at least gives you some warning that it is happening and, ideally, some idea of how to stop it. Whether anyone can do anything about it is quite another matter entirely but hey, I voted for Kodos.

My objection isn't the naive fool broadly declaring monarchy as bad in a situation where that assertion is basically irrelevant, but the implication of willful ignorance of why and how it relates to the various movie windmills they insist are clearly giants. If I may borrow from another favorite: "Ten out of ten for style, but minus several million for good thinking."

Casnorf
Jun 14, 2002

Never drive a car when you're a fish

I'm personally pretty pleased with that one sentence. Like, drat, fish.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


I kind of want M'Baku to be King and Nakia to be Queen to have an Us reunion.

Casnorf
Jun 14, 2002

Never drive a car when you're a fish

She's a queen!

Desperado Bones
Aug 29, 2009

Cute, adorable, and creepy at the same time!






Hold it there ya'll! Stop slap fighting over monarchy....we got a NEW LOKI trailer:

https://twitter.com/CultureCrave/status/1389389217302663172

Marsupial Ape
Dec 15, 2020

...big ol' thick pumpernickel...


Casnorf posted:

I'm assuming you're familiar with the concept of water empires. Stability is a nice thing but few things that last that long are terribly capable of handling anything even remotely resembling an outside context problem. Which, hilariously, is exactly what Killmonger is -- someone who is willing to abuse the political systems put into place with the expectation of benevolence. That last bit is key. Any system built upon the expectation of benevolence is gonna run into exactly the same problems precisely because cross purposes are outside its own context.

Now, before you go arguing about the pedantics of outside context as being broadly relevant to anything the system's builders didn't foresee, I'll grant that immediately with the caveat that it is entirely possible to defend against unknown exploits as long as you have some idea of what category of defense is required, so a wide set of rules specifically to ensure malevolence has a great deal of trouble breaking through to the juicy core of governance at least gives you some warning that it is happening and, ideally, some idea of how to stop it. Whether anyone can do anything about it is quite another matter entirely but hey, I voted for Kodos.

My objection isn't the naive fool broadly declaring monarchy as bad in a situation where that assertion is basically irrelevant, but the implication of willful ignorance of why and how it relates to the various movie windmills they insist are clearly giants. If I may borrow from another favorite: "Ten out of ten for style, but minus several million for good thinking."

I’m sure you put a lot of work into that, but I read none of that. I am here for banter until Loki starts.

Casnorf
Jun 14, 2002

Never drive a car when you're a fish

Too bad, cause I was agreeing with ya ya dingus. Hahaha

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014





I give a poo poo what he thinks, is my point

Rappaport
Oct 2, 2013


I'm almost certain there's a story line involving Von Doom and how he's a mostly benevolent monarch, although it's kind of undercut by him immediately brainwashing a small child just because he really, really hates Reed Richards. Von Doom, not the kid, prior to the brain wash. So, you know, monarchies are a land of contrasts?

BrianWilly
Apr 24, 2007

There is no homosexual terrorist Johnny Silverhand

Marsupial Ape posted:

Do you honestly think we’re doing anything but amusing ourselves at the expense of your misplaced earnestness?
After reading through the last month of this thread I absolutely, one-hundred percent believe most people here will earnestly defend any depiction of any institution as long as it makes them feel better about watching a TV show.

Azhais
Feb 5, 2007


Switchblade Switcharoo

Desperado Bones posted:

Hold it there ya'll! Stop slap fighting over monarchy....we got a NEW LOKI trailer:

https://twitter.com/CultureCrave/status/1389389217302663172

Asgard Noon

BurritoJustice
Oct 9, 2012



The_Doctor posted:

I wonder if they thought they’d have longer with Boseman, at least to get BP2 out of him and then pass the mantle at the end of the film. Now they’re folding the TV plans into the movie plans and doing them together. I fully expect academy award winner Daniel Kaluuya’s W’Kabi to have a larger role now, maybe even put on the kitty ears himself.

By all accounts they genuinely didn't know, Boseman kept it a secret from all but his close family. I guess Disney has ears everywhere but Feige at least said he found out the morning that he passed.

BurritoJustice
Oct 9, 2012



Bleck posted:

I give a poo poo what he thinks, is my point

Ravel posted:

Mate, I'm neither white nor American, I'm South African - what's with the incredibly patronising takes as though everyone who's sceptical about whether public figure superheroes would have money issues just doesn't understand narratives about racism.

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




friendly reminder that 'Black' and 'African' are not the same thing

BurritoJustice
Oct 9, 2012



Bleck posted:

friendly reminder that 'Black' and 'African' are not the same thing

They're talking about Black Panther? Is that not about a Central African country with inspiration from all over Africa?

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




BurritoJustice posted:

They're talking about Black Panther? Is that not about a Central African country with inspiration from all over Africa?

yes, and it's an American film based on American-created characters, starring two Black Americans

Black Panther, both the character in general and the film, is a portrayal of African characters and settings - but it originated as a, arguably, a product designed for Black audiences, and now over the years and culminating with the success of the film, is a Black cultural monolith

I'm not really interested in mechanistic or political takedowns of the film from non-Black audiences because (and I understand that this is reductive) they Just Don't Get It

BurritoJustice
Oct 9, 2012



Bleck posted:

yes, and it's an American film based on American-created characters, starring two Black Americans

Black Panther, both the character in general and the film, is a portrayal of African characters and settings - but it originated as a, arguably, a product designed for Black audiences, and now over the years and culminating with the success of the film, is a Black cultural monolith

I'm not really interested in mechanistic or political takedowns of the film from non-Black audiences because (and I understand that this is reductive) they Just Don't Get It

That makes sense, thank you. I don't immediately associate "black" as a mononym with specifically African-American as I'm Australian and it's not always used that specifically here (and it's mostly aboriginal).

a Loving Dog
May 12, 2001


Bleck posted:

I give a poo poo what he thinks, is my point

The post about Coates you initially responded to was agreeing with him, though, which is why people responded to you saying “Coates is black” with such confusion

Ravel
Dec 23, 2009

There's no story


Bleck posted:

I'm not really interested in mechanistic or political takedowns of the film from non-Black audiences because (and I understand that this is reductive) they Just Don't Get It

That's good, but I think you misread what I stated Coates' position to be. Coates' conception of the character was much more introspective and political, and seems to conclude that democracy is preferable to monarchy: 'Our people are the most advanced in the world. Should not the institutions that Govern them be the same?'

He suggests Black Panther as a representative, but not the ruler, of Wakanda.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Desperado Bones posted:

Hold it there ya'll! Stop slap fighting over monarchy....we got a NEW LOKI trailer:

https://twitter.com/CultureCrave/status/1389389217302663172

Owen Wilson is not going to get enough credit for being the straight man on this.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

In Rodd we Bust





Defending the Monarchy in Black Panther is the same thing as defending the CIA in Black Panther

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tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


Bust Rodd posted:

Defending the Monarchy in Black Panther is the same thing as defending the CIA in Black Panther

Objecting to it is the same thing as objecting to the existence of vibranium.

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