|
Dexo posted:The Dora Milaje loving own I love "the Dora Milaje have jurisdiction where ever they please". They take no poo poo from anyone, though if they had just killed Walker right there it probably would have saved a lot of headaches down the road Holy poo poo that ending 
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 08:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 14:43 |
|
|
I'm beginning to think this John Walker guy was not a good choice for Captain America.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 08:54
|
|
|
twistedmentat posted:Holy poo poo that ending YO
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 08:55
|
|
|
YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 08:55
|
|
|
This show is going places Wanda vision would never have dreamed of. drat.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:02
|
|
|
HOO BOY That Ending. My favorite part of the episode though was Zemo casually drinking then making a smooth exit while the Dora Milaje fought Captain Dumbass
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:08
|
|
|
TheBigBudgetSequel posted:HOO BOY That Ending. I also appreciate that he legit thinks he’s right and ain’t tempted.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:14
|
|
|
Okay I'm a little confused on one part, just found it a bit hard to follow: Karli texts Sam to meet her at some place, which they do. They start to talk a bit. Aiight cool. Sharon then calls Sam and tells her that New Cap is on the move. Apparently he managed to find the other Flag Smashers? Do we know how he managed to do this, or is it mostly just unexplained? More importantly...Sam and Bucky suddenly just stop their meeting with Karli and start to just rush away to get to Walker. Why? Karli is right there! Isn't the whole point to get her, specifically? And now she's finally here and you've finally got your alone time with her, you're just gonna...leave her? For her mooks? Was that what happened or am I not getting this sequence?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:14
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:Okay I'm a little confused on one part, just found it a bit hard to follow: I think it was "Oh God, Walker is gonna loving ruin everything and no matter what we do with Karli now she's gonna go right back to how she was as soon as she finds out America got her friends while we were distracting her"
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:19
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:Okay I'm a little confused on one part, just found it a bit hard to follow: They aren't trying to capture Karli, they are mostly trying to talk her down. Walker has been able to track Sam and Bucky extremely easily the entire show. They saw them going somewhere weird and decided to go make a move. And Sam told Sharon earlier to track his Movements, which is why she was tracking him. Sam and Bucky didn't suddenly stop, Captain rear end in a top hat interrupted and she ran off, They weren't even necessarily there to capture her, just to talk to her. As shown by Sam pretty much telling her that Walker was on the way.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:20
|
|
|
I think Bucky and Sam wanted to prevent Walker from getting his hands on Karli. They already had a connect and know Walker is just an rear end in a top hat
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:24
|
|
|
I guess? It just seems like they went through a lot of trouble to try to get time with Karli, and then they do, but then they just run away from her because of reasons, so now they have to go and find her all over again. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:25
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:I guess? It just seems like they went through a lot of trouble to try to get time with Karli, and then they do, but then they just run away from her because of reasons, so now they have to go and find her all over again. edit: nvmind I misremembered. But anyway Bucky and Falcon don't want to capture Karli, they just want to talk to her, and know that Walker won't. They will probably be able to find Karli or contact Karli again, not so much if Walker catches her Dexo fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Apr 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:26
|
|
|
The way Sam spread his wings and took off made it seem like they were going off to somewhere else edit: Wait no? That's not what happened. Sam absolutely tells Bucky "I'll send you the location, go" like they're definitely going to go meet somewhere else. And they both definitely just...leave Karli in the middle of that atrium for no reason. Yeah I don't get this scene. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 09:39 on Apr 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:33
|
|
|
That opening scene in Wakanda, with Bucky's trigger words finally entirely removed made me cry like a big ol' baby.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:35
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:
It was definitely a "Oh gently caress, he's going to their headquarters and she's gonna think we are trying to distract her, again. Go stop his dumb rear end from doing something dumb" which...didn't go so well clearly. John Walker: American Idiot
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:42
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:46
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:
John Walker is coming to them, they don't want John Walker to see Karli. They want to talk to Karli and think the best way to do that in the future is to make sure that Karli doesn't meet Captain rear end in a top hat, So they leave to intercept him. Falcon runs into rear end in a top hat, who tells Falcon that they have his partner. And as such Falcon follows him, Bucky runs into one of the Flag Smasher's who he just knocks out, and then they all get into the fight in the room at the table with the Flag Smasher mooks. And yeah... They were likely expecting Karli to run away like she has done before she didn't, she wanted Walker dead.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 09:51
|
|
|
Ep was fantastic. I legit thought Walker was about to decapitate the guy but bludgeoning him to death is just as brutal. The imagery of Cap's shield covered in blood is so simple but effective. I love Walker's character. His great failing is simply that he isn't perfect like Steve, and it ate him up inside. I feel like the writing of this episode was significantly better than the last one. It gave some much needed time for Karli to say her piece. Nothing surprising but it still clarified her motivations that previously seemed muddled and half-baked. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Apr 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 10:05
|
|
|
Can I say just how  that the thing that Pushes Walker to take the Serum is getting the poo poo beat out of him by a bunch of Black Women
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 10:10
|
|
|
I need to check again, but In the fight scene with the Dora Milaje, when Walker is stuck to the table with the spear through his shield, it looked a lot like he finally got free by just letting go of the shield for a second. It immediately called to mind Homer Simpson being stuck in the vending machines because he's still holding onto stuff, but like I say I need to check again
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 10:10
|
|
|
A+ final shot of the episode, drat.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 10:39
|
|
|
LionArcher posted:I also appreciate that he legit thinks he’s right and ain’t tempted. Yeah, it was a total tossup for me on if he'd take it in a "gotta be a monster to fight monsters" mentality or stick to his ideals. My big takeaway from this episode is that literally every hero (and John Walker) needs to learn how to keep an eye on or spot the bad guys that they really should constantly be keeping track of. That bit with the Dora and Bucky's arm was a nice touch that I didn't see coming. For me Wandavision is still absolutely beating Falcon and WS on the story front, but this show definitely has better action. I have high hopes for Loki, since it seems like it's going to blend the high concept factor of Wandavision while having quippier dialogue and enhancing the action with a bit more special effects flourishes while not going full Wanda/Agatha flying CGI fight. And don't get me wrong, I'm a total sucker for that kind of thing and I'll gladly take as much of it as the MCU will give me, but I think there's more potential for fun action when it's more grounded and only going 25% or 50% of the way with the CGI flourishes. I also wish they went full measure with the ending and had Walker straight up decapitate a dude with the shield cutting through 'em like a hot knife through butter. There's tons of precedent in marvel comics for showing graphic violence but in an artisticly-censored way, and even as a proper Disney PG-13 MCU show I think they could've gotten that idea across without making it too graphic for kids. They even had the body end up with its head hidden by some scenery, all it would take is adjusting the positioning a bit and having the shield slams (or even just the last shield slam) come down around the neck and we'd get the picture. NowonSA fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Apr 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 10:40
|
|
|
I had a feeling that eventually Walker was going to be the new face of American brutality in front of some cameras, but not like that. Ayo and the Dora Milaje were incredible the whole episode.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 10:49
|
|
|
So if the serum amps a person's traits, ala Red Skull becoming literally Red Skull, Walker going completely respect my authority authoritarian murder, Karli becoming more terrorism happy(?) and Bucky even says he himself is crazy, with Steve as the only stated exception to the rule, is there any clue what changed in Bucky or did it get so meshed in with the Winter Soldier stuff that we can't really tell what's serum and what's just post-Hydra mess?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 10:57
|
|
|
I enjoyed the talk between Battlestar and Walker about how medals of honour are really records of the terrors of war and nothing to be proud of. Got the point across that Walker isn't personally ideologically fash he is just a product of that system taken to the extreme. He did really want to do something good with the mantle but he is just too broken and objective driven for what it represents. America as it really is in war, not as it pretends to be My man Hoskins didn't have to go like that  I might be an outlier but this episode didn't really catch me, but it might be just because I read the whole Invincible run to coincide with the new show and it was vastly more engrossing (if less topical).
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 11:29
|
|
|
So, the discussion here is great. im pretty sure dude got decapitated, which was almost ironic because i think that was the one who said he grew up a fan of the cap. also, i must of misunderstood the situation because i was thinking karli was going to ask sam to help them fight walker cap? ill watch it again tomorrow but that was the direction i thought it was going for. I appreciate the direction the show is going. I also wept like a baby for the scene in wakanda. "you are free" its nice to see that kind of vulnerability in superheroes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 11:35
|
|
|
It's no secret the medal of honor is something no soldier ever wants to earn living. Walker had suffered through so much in war and what he did is a reflection of the policy of what American foreign policy had become and how the government wanted to legitimize the image
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 11:38
|
|
|
Dexo posted:Can I say just how Was this shown on screen btw? I might have been looking away when it happened.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 11:53
|
|
|
Artelier posted:Was this shown on screen btw? I might have been looking away when it happened. No. You can see him resolving to use it in his conversation with Lemar at the cafe afterwards, but you never see him take it. He just shows up throwing the shield hard enough to dig in to a concrete pillar, bending metal pipes etc.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 12:21
|
|
|
That was a lot of what I was hoping the episode would be. Karli finally verbalized her ideas, the show didn't back off on being sympathetic to her with even Sam seeing past the killings, further escalation from her threatening Sam's family and killing Battlestar but she actually shows that she's affected by it, and then Walker shows he's different by killing someone in cold blood and not feeling remorse. I won't say its perfect or anything but a lot of the stuff I was feeling uncertain about going into that episode feels a lot clearer now.coolusername posted:So if the serum amps a person's traits, ala Red Skull becoming literally Red Skull, Walker going completely respect my authority authoritarian murder, Karli becoming more terrorism happy(?) and Bucky even says he himself is crazy, with Steve as the only stated exception to the rule, is there any clue what changed in Bucky or did it get so meshed in with the Winter Soldier stuff that we can't really tell what's serum and what's just post-Hydra mess? Bucky got brainwashed and spent like 70 years as a POW and Manchurian Soldier. I think its safe to say the bulk of his personal issues mostly developed during that period.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 12:23
|
|
|
It's hilarious to me that everyone is freaking the gently caress out that Walker killed a dude when Sam killed like 15 men in the opening sequence, many of whom had horrible deaths
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 12:24
|
|
|
Re: Sam and Bucky suddenly leaving the meeting, I thought that was pretty clearly because Karli reveals she just wanted to get Sam separated from Walker so the rest of the Flag Smashers could kill Walker, since as the new Captain America he's the symbol they want to destroy. She says herself to Sam that killing him would mean nothing, she wants to kill Captain America, which is when Sharon pipes in to tell Sam that Walker is on the move because he found the Flag Smashers "or they found him", implying that they leaked their location so he'd run in like a loving idiot and they could kill him. That's why Sam and Bucky take off and Sam says he'll send Bucky the location, they're trying to get to the ambush to save Walker, not knowing he's taken the Super Soldier Serum and things are going to go badly for the Flag Smashers.LionArcher posted:I also appreciate that he legit thinks he’s right and ain’t tempted. Loved that, also his question to Sam afterwards asking if he would be tempted to take it, and he's so impressed that Sam instantly says no. I think Zemo DID consider even if only briefly taking the serum for himself before staying true to his (hosed up) ideals and smashing the vials. Also yeah just Nthing that the final visual of the episode was Edit: Also also: "they weren't even super soldiers...." was a fantastic line. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Apr 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 12:24
|
|
|
BurritoJustice posted:It's hilarious to me that everyone is freaking the gently caress out that Walker killed a dude when Sam killed like 15 men in the opening sequence, many of whom had horrible deaths Bludgeoning a prone victim to death, a person who was seen by many as a revolutionary and hero themselves, vs killing a bunch of terrorists/soldiers in a high pitched battle after they've killed and kidnapped people tends to play differently with a lot of people. Its like also why we're talking about Karli killing Battlestar or the GRC people in a different way. Those were wrong but Karli kills Battlestar in the heat of battle. She kills the GRC as an idealistic idea. Wrong, but different from Walker just straight up executing a person. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Apr 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 12:32
|
|
|
BurritoJustice posted:It's hilarious to me that everyone is freaking the gently caress out that Walker killed a dude when Sam killed like 15 men in the opening sequence, many of whom had horrible deaths I think most people would see a clear distinction in those situations. Sam is killing soldiers in an active battlefield, and perhaps just as importantly, there's no one aroundt to see. Walker kills what is essentially a civilian, in front of a load of other civilians who are not only watching but recording it, and that civilian is making a plea for Walker not to harm him because he's beaten and knows it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 12:35
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:Re: Sam and Bucky suddenly leaving the meeting, I thought that was pretty clearly because Karli reveals she just wanted to get Sam separated from Walker so the rest of the Flag Smashers could kill Walker, since as the new Captain America he's the symbol they want to destroy. She says herself to Sam that killing him would mean nothing, she wants to kill Captain America, which is when Sharon pipes in to tell Sam that Walker is on the move because he found the Flag Smashers "or they found him", implying that they leaked their location so he'd run in like a loving idiot and they could kill him. That's why Sam and Bucky take off and Sam says he'll send Bucky the location, they're trying to get to the ambush to save Walker, not knowing he's taken the Super Soldier Serum and things are going to go badly for the Flag Smashers.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 12:37
|
|
|
I understand the difference in context, I'm just seeing a lot of comments about Walker killing someone in general when Cap definitely kills half the guys he hits with his shield throws. The way Hoskins died is exactly how many goons are thrown when hit by heroes in Marvel. You can also argue that he was a super soldier terrorist who just killed his friend and could easily harm others if he turns his back on him, a knockout blow was likely justifiable but he went (way) too far from there. It's definitely an interesting example of how the tone of the scene can put a spin on the different kills by marvel Heroes tsob posted:I think most people would see a clear distinction in those situations. Sam is killing soldiers in an active battlefield, and perhaps just as importantly, there's no one aroundt to see. Walker kills what is essentially a civilian, in front of a load of other civilians who are not only watching but recording it, and that civilian is making a plea for Walker not to harm him because he's beaten and knows it. The guy was not a civilian by that standard. Retreating and vulnerable, yes, but still a superpowered combatant who was trying to kill him a minute before BurritoJustice fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Apr 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 12:43
|
|
|
BurritoJustice posted:The guy was not a civilian by that standard. Retreating and vulnerable, yes, but still a superpowered combatant who was trying to kill him a minute before A terrorist is a civilian almost by definition, since one of the important parts of a terrorist is that they are not part of any formal army and can blend back in to the crowd after an attack. As opposed to a soldier (and not a combatant in particular), who wears a uniform as part of a formal army they can be identified as part of in some manner, has rules of conduct they nominally stick to etc. He was absolutely trying to kill Walker only a few minutes beforehand, but the fact he'd essentially surrendered (even if not in so many words) and was pleading for leniency in front of others completely changes the context of the act as well as how pretty much anyone would view it. Especially when compared to Steve, which is who pretty much anyone talking about this scene will automatically be comparing it to anyway, and who it is hard to imagine doing that to anyone under those circumstances. tsob fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Apr 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 12:57
|
|
|
BurritoJustice posted:The guy was not a civilian by that standard. Retreating and vulnerable, yes, but still a superpowered combatant who was trying to kill him a minute before This is true but that's 100% not how it's going to play and any explanation will look like damage control. Especially since it's likely that Walker straight up decapitated a helpless target.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 13:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 14:43 |
|
|
Like regardless of how you feel about that opening series scene of Sam in battle it plays entirely differently if it ended with Sam stalking a downed soldier, him begging off, and Sam repeatedly bludgeoning him with his wings until he was dead.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2021 13:05
|
|