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Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

Epitope posted:

I'm gonna focus on the science and engineering until I'm out of rabbit holes to explore.

Except you don't know enough about any of that to matter. You're just wasting time here.

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Tezer
Jul 9, 2001



There's no harm in messing around a bit, seeing what you can figure out and mitigate on your own. However, given that these issues are likely related to pervasive construction quality issues coupled with brittle historic construction assembly decisions it's important to keep in the back of your mind that fixing everything "correctly" may require more money than the house is worth. That's what I take away from the more blunt comments in this thread, and I agree with them. I also agree with Motronic that sometimes ignorance is your best friend when it comes to property disclosures.

That said, there are plenty of houses with iffy assemblies that manage to limp along, and if you get lucky you might be able to wrestle your house into a better condition. I would never advise a client to start down this path because self-performance usually leads to crying. Just as a warning.


Epitope posted:

FLIR has happened, I had a guy out. I learned two things. Those things are not easy to use or interpret (he let me play with it). And unfortunately there's no obvious clue there. The guy I had out is a pro, but he was incredibly sloppy, so I'm planning on getting someone else out

Heat loss is a temperamental indicator when you are looking at a moisture issue and i'm not surprised you didn't learn much. You are trying to find locations where warm, moist air is leaving interior spaces and entering cold spaces, resulting in condensation. For this to show up in a heat loss study the temperature differential needs to be large (ok, it's winter so that works), but you also need a device that is sensitive enough to show the flow (this is a pixel size issue) and you need the flow to be large enough that the temperature differential can be detected before air to air mixing drops the temperature of the exfiltrating air to the point where it can't be distinguished. You'll have better luck if you pressurize the interior of the home, which generally is done with a blower door (maybe they did this?), but even then heat loss is the wrong tool for the job. You really want to look for air leakage with a smoke pen. Pressurizing with a blower door will help with a smoke test as well, if you are hiring someone to do this you will want it done with a blower door for best results.


Epitope posted:

Also, couldn't "poorly insulated windows" be part of the problem, and something that could be addressed with less invasive methods? Like, I get it, you and maybe any professional worth a drat is not going to see any point in dinking around with this stuff. But I have to. I can't commit to what sounds like a six figure rehab job without trying every other option first. And again, the previous owner did a six figure rehab job, and it didn't fix the problem.

Here's some more pictures of that window, with what looks like more interior air working it's way through.

They might be part of a different problem, but not the soffit problem. There is no path from the window into the areas of your soffit which are really an issue. If the condensation was on the interior of the glass, it might indicate an interior humidity issue that would exacerbate your soffit problem, but condensation on the exterior is usually just a 'cold glass' problem.

Hm, ok, now I've looked at the second picture and I see the ice and frost on the exterior trim. It could be a flashing issue on the exterior trim causing the bulk ice, but the frost is more interesting. If you are looking for another tool to buy, pick up a hygrometer so you can track interior humidity. If you search "cigar hygrometer" you can find cheap ones. Don't worry about buying a really accurate one, get a couple so you can figure out if one is super off. Like, I have one on my humidifier (winter), and my dehumidifier (summer), and a cheap analog dial stuck on my fridge. They all read 5-10% off from each other, but the goal is to figure out if your house is typically at 10% or 30% or 60% so accuracy isn't terribly important.


Epitope posted:

I did just go ahead and take off one piece of trim that's small enough I can put it back up easily. Used stir stick shim ftw

So, the trim comes off not to evaluate, but to repair. If this is an air exfiltration issue (and I know we've talked a lot about that, but technically it's still a guess!) the complete repair involves the removal of either all exterior siding and most of the sheathing, or the same on the interior, to install a complete vapor barrier in the correct location in the wall/ceiling assemblies. If that isn't possible, you identify the worst leaks and fill them with expanding foam/caulk/etc. That's where removing the trim comes in, as many of the worst exfiltration locations will be at places where materials transition and are discontinuous or have become discontinuous over the last fifty years. These locations are typically covered with trim, because that's what you do at those locations.

So, like, don't remove any trim unless you know the repair steps, because you'll just be creating a mess without a goal. Smoke testing, etc. can all be done without removing trim.

Motronic posted:

Except you don't know enough about any of that to matter. You're just wasting time here.

This isn't wrong...

If this is really interesting to you beyond just your acute issue, two good books on the subject:

"Moisture Control Handbook" by Joseph Lstiburek
"Water in Buildings" by William Rose

Lstiburek's book is more cut and dry, here are techniques, etc.
Rose's book is more of a textbook

Lstiburek will be more applicable to your acute issue, Rose is a easier introduction to the overall subject.

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL





Motronic posted:

Except you don't know enough about any of that to matter. You're just wasting time here.

You're a pretty acerbic dude.

But that might be a good thing considering that I spent 7 years in construction, and am constantly overwhelmed by issues on my own house. This house is troubleshooting, which just takes so much ingrained knowledge and experience that it's near impossible to do over the internet.

Tezer posted:

There's no harm in messing around a bit

You're a saint though.

What could OP do to mitigate the cost of a remodel? It seems to me like he could maybe get away with reframing the roof on the addition to make sure everything is properly sealed and vented.

If I were bumblefucking my own house, I'd tear that kitchen roof off and try to build a new one, following the roofline of that section labeled "loft" that amount of intrusiveness might allow for proper sealing/venting of the whole area, without tearing everything down and starting from first principles.

That frost on the outside of the window shows to me that they're not properly caulked (primary moisture barrier) and that they have no secondary moisture blocking of any sort. I would start by ripping those mfers straight out. (Probs in the summer tho.)

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

I really don't mind acerbic. Tezer's replies are just as brutal to me (which is a good thing).

And ya the "gently caress it, just fix it" plan we've discussed is pretty much that. Take out the skylights basically. If that's the plan though, I don't see why I shouldn't try corking it up some first. Is that a job somebody in Anchorage will try for me? Finding the people is a project in itself.

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL





The thing about "corking it up" is that improperly installed windows are just a water pathway begging for a chance to leak, they will gently caress you over and over, because the fundamental mechanics of moisture intrusion prevention require redundant barriers in case one leaks, and with the windows in place the beat you can do is exactly one moisture barrier (caulk).

If you wanna just send it, get a case of Sika Pro sealant and a caulk gun and go to town on the inside and outside of the windows while they're relatively dry. Or even better a few tubes for the inside and a tub of Mastic for the outside.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

Elviscat posted:

The thing about "corking it up" is that improperly installed windows are just a water pathway begging for a chance to leak, they will gently caress you over and over, because the fundamental mechanics of moisture intrusion prevention require redundant barriers in case one leaks, and with the windows in place the beat you can do is exactly one moisture barrier (caulk).

If you wanna just send it, get a case of Sika Pro sealant and a caulk gun and go to town on the inside and outside of the windows while they're relatively dry. Or even better a few tubes for the inside and a tub of Mastic for the outside.

This is a good way to have the windows rot out in the next several years.

First of all, those windows don't look to be very high quality. Secondly, to do even this part of the job right requires you to know what you've got under there to begin with. My guess is "someone put a window in a hole made of 2x6s" and nothing else. Simply caulking the poo poo out of them, especially on the exterior, runs a real risk of water intrusion that can't drain. Optimally this is something repaired with the siding off. But at least the window coming out would be advisable. Which creates it's own problems because these are probably new construction windows.

So again we're back to the "this is just wasting time" part. This isn't the issue that's going to make the house uninhabitable first. It's not even close to the top of that list. It risks breaking things that aren't already broken and making the entire situation worse.

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

Setting aside whether i can execute that type of fix myself (~0% chance), or find someone to do it (hard but possible?), I'm still wondering about the viability of such a plan. I can see the existing vapor barrier or whatever the plastic sheet behind the drywall is called. Would it be anywhere in the realm of possible to bridge from that to the windows and skylights? Of course the moisture may not even be traveling that path, but if it is

ntan1
Apr 29, 2009

sempai noticed me


The technique to replace a window is as follows: https://www.familyhandyman.com/project/prevent-window-leaks-with-proper-window-installation/

Note: flashing needs to be correctly applied so that any water that sits on the top of a window will flow off the edges outside of the house, instead of being trapped in wood. Once the window is installed, the interior areas inside of the wood frame need to be caulked. See how doing this essentially requires that all of the siding be torn off.

Skylights are more complicated. The first line of defense requires that an underlayment be installed. Following this is the metal flashing. On the lower side of the skylight, the metal must sit over the roof shingles so that water doesnt leak into the roof shingles. On the upper side of the skylight, the metal will sit under the roof. Finally, as usual, once the skylight is placed in the hole, edges need to be caulked prior to drywall to avoid leakage.

If poor window or skylight installation is your main problem, then the only way to fix it is to completely redo the flashing by removing the siding.

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

I mean without disturbing the windows or existing vapor barrier.

I recognize this is may be impossible, but I'd like to know that. It sounds like once we start any significant tear out, we may as well consider things like adding more square footage. Do we have the chip stack for a move like that, and is there any potential payoff, i dunno, still hoping not to go there

Blistex
Oct 30, 2003

Macho Business
Donkey Wrestler


Lose the skylight. They're more trouble than they're worth and it's not a case of "if" they will be a problem, but "when". A few home builders and building companies in my area don't include them in their homes anymore because they're almost always a problem they have to go back and address.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

Epitope posted:

I mean without disturbing the windows or existing vapor barrier.

I recognize this is may be impossible, but I'd like to know that. It sounds like once we start any significant tear out, we may as well consider things like adding more square footage. Do we have the chip stack for a move like that, and is there any potential payoff, i dunno, still hoping not to go there

Again, fixing this right is an entire teardown. Perhaps you can save some lumber/windows/siding.

But it's impossible to say if that the teardown is financially viable. Based on your responses it's pretty clear that it isn't. Which makes the best course of action getting the gently caress out of that property and doing a better job of buying someplace else.

Ghostnuke
Sep 21, 2005

Throw this in a pot, add some broth, a potato? Baby you got a stew going!




Motronic posted:

Again, fixing this right is an entire teardown.

It sucks but this really is the bottom line, anything you do at this point is a band aid that will still need to be torn down later.

Either move or save your money for a complete demo and rebuild of your kitchen.

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

Motronic posted:

. Based on your responses it's pretty clear that it isn't.

It may be clear to you but it is not clear to me. Are you applying to be my project manager and or financial advisor? Because I'm not sharing my financial details publicly

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

Epitope posted:

It may be clear to you but it is not clear to me. Are you applying to be my project manager and or financial advisor? Because I'm not sharing my financial details publicly

You're the one asking for advice, and you don't even understand what is relevant to give you that advice.

I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors with your material defect home.

Earth
Nov 6, 2009
Ask me about being a
SCUMBAG
SCALPER


College Slice

Epitope posted:

It may be clear to you but it is not clear to me. Are you applying to be my project manager and or financial advisor? Because I'm not sharing my financial details publicly

Before you get too excited you should know Motronic is a know it all that has to post in every thread here in HCH and might have some challenges with reading comprehension. For him I'm pretty sure everything is wrong except what he does and everyone is an idiot except him. I'm a glutton for punishment so I haven't put him on ignore yet.

Okay, now that may have calmed you down a bit. I do not fully understand the situation and you're going to get no shortage of contractors that want to "fix" your stuff when really they want to get the money out of your pocket into theirs. The problem with photos on the internet is people aren't going to be really able to help you to the level you are looking for. Photos only go so far and someone who is knowledgable of the local regulations/weather patterns is really going to be able to help a lot more.

My suggestion would be to get your insurance adjustor out to your house to check things out. One of my friends had water/rotting wood problems in the frame of the house in Seattle and insurance got involved. Insurance has an interest in doing it right vs a contractor interested in separating you from your money. And insurance doesn't want to pay so if they think they can get someone else to pay they may try that. Also, your insurance people may have a list of trusted contractors they like to work with. That is if you trust your insurance provider. If you don't then you're going to have to be looking around harder than that.

The biggest point is if you plan on hiring this out and not doing it yourself then the best suggestion is finding a good company to do the work.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

Earth posted:

My suggestion would be to get your insurance adjustor out to your house to check things out.

So you start with ME being the problem and then give him a suggestion that 100% will get him dropped from his homeowner's insurance. Very interesting.

Earth
Nov 6, 2009
Ask me about being a
SCUMBAG
SCALPER


College Slice

Motronic posted:

So you start with ME being the problem and then give him a suggestion that 100% will get him dropped from his homeowner's insurance. Very interesting.

Another example of you being the only person that can be correct, even though I provided a tangible example of difference. Insurance didn't drop my friends who had problems way worse than this.

Good job with that reading comprehension issues again by picking out just a few items in a post.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009



Grimey Drawer

Earth posted:

Another example of you being the only person that can be correct, even though I provided a tangible example of difference. Insurance didn't drop my friends who had problems way worse than this.

Good job with that reading comprehension issues again by picking out just a few items in a post.

Your suggestion relies entirely on this person having the money to do the job properly. Once you call your homeowner's insurance company's attention to an issue like this you are on the clock and the incident is entered into CLUE so you won't be able to get underwritten by anyone else either. Recall that insurance is a requirement of a mortgage. This puts their entire housing situation in jeopardy.

There is no one to go after here unless it can be proven that the disclosure was fraudulent. And it would take years of civil suits to get any money out of them that way if it ever happens.

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

I had a pretty enjoyable daydream about giving a goon my phone number, and answering "hello this is epitope"

I also booked one of the bpi guys for next week. Don't blow up the thread before then

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


Isn't most of this stuff due to the roof being crap and letting water and moisture geting in where it shouldn't. I mean yes it's overall shoddy and wrong construction, but evens shoddy construction could still stand a long time, as long as the roof is built right and keeps water out, roofs are the most important part of a house.

Seems to me you'd need to tear off the roof and make a new roof. Possibly replacing the loft roof as well and make a new single roof line that goes from the loft to the kitchen exenstion (and no skylights). I am not sure if that's just lipstick on a pig though.

I've no idea on the windows because american windows and designs are unfamiliar, and I am not sure what I am seeing in your photos. Is the water between two panes, or is it water on the inside? The latter to me says the inside humidity is too high and the windows are cold so condensation forms on them. Got a humidity meter?

ntan1
Apr 29, 2009

sempai noticed me


ice dams are a completely distinct problem that aren't solely because of the roof.

His Divine Shadow
Aug 7, 2000

I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.


Seems to me a matter of how you define it. To me, heat getting to the roof so stuff melts on it, indicates an improperly built roof as the outermost layer of the roof should be separated from such a possibility with a ventilated air gap and a secondary barrier. But nordic construction probably differs.



Improper insulation further down makes the problem of an improperly built roof worse though. The heat just shouldn't be allowed to get that far up to begin with. Not enough slope on the roof is also an issue, and using asphalt shingles instead of sheet metal (the snow just slides off the first chance it gets).

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

I wish it were just the roof. Then all I would have to do is lean on one roofing company to fix their work. One of the biggest roofing operations in town put on a new roof (and rafters) 5 years ago.

Tezer posted:

If this is really interesting to you beyond just your acute issue, two good books on the subject:

"Moisture Control Handbook" by Joseph Lstiburek
"Water in Buildings" by William Rose

Lstiburek's book is more cut and dry, here are techniques, etc.
Rose's book is more of a textbook

Lstiburek will be more applicable to your acute issue, Rose is a easier introduction to the overall subject.

The first book has a case study of a very similar situation. The preview doesn't include the page on the fixes, but I'm not sure if I'm going to pay $115 for one page



In this case, the moist air is getting through penetrations at recessed lights. I assume the fix is either removing the lights or sealing them better. I guess my question is, could this fix be done with minimally invasive surgery? Like, cut out the light from inside, cap the wire, patch the insulation, patch the vapor barrier, patch the drywall, drink a beer?

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

Here's some other spots where moist warm air gets out and freezes on things. This is an exterior door with a glass screen door (storm door?) where air leaks out around the main door and turns to frost on the outer door. I think this is not a big deal, just shows what the air transported moisture situation is here.



For the sake of discussion, I think I could squirt Sika Pro or whatever Elviscat was talking about around the main door. This would reduce that moisture transport. I wouldn't be able to use the door, but hey.

This is more of a puzzle, and something of a problem, though I don't think as big as the rafter one. The window on the left in the first image, taken close up in the second




You can see the moisture dripping at the top of the window. You can also see streaks from this happening frequently. Is this interior air leaking around this window? Did they not connect the moisture barrier around this window? The trim inside and outside is all intact and painted and sealed as far as I can tell, so not sure what's going on here.

The window in the middle doesn't have this problem. That's the bathroom. Maybe they did a better job of sealing the bathroom?

Kaiser Schnitzel
Mar 28, 2006

Schnitzel mit uns




This isn't BFC, it's the broken houses forum where we try to fix broken houses. It's full of threads about houses that should have been teardowns but the owners are fixing with their own blood, sweat and tears (and dollars). That may not always be the most financially optimal thing to do, but it's why we're here.

If you don't have any helpful input on helping the OP diagnose and potentially repair their problem, I'd suggest not posting in this thread. The OP has heard 'everything is hosed tear it down' and that may well wind up being the last recourse, but in the meantime I don't think it's helpful.


OP I would be hesitant about contacting your homeowners insurance about this. They may not help you and like Motronic said, they might kick you off your insurance. You have some slow-ish, long term problems with your house, but it doesn't look immediately catastrophic. Your particular problems are pretty foreign to my warm climate and I don't know much about them, but a good course of action would seem to be to spend the winter months trying to find the source of the problems so that someone can fix it in the spring/summer.

Tezer
Jul 9, 2001



Epitope posted:

In this case, the moist air is getting through penetrations at recessed lights. I assume the fix is either removing the lights or sealing them better. I guess my question is, could this fix be done with minimally invasive surgery? Like, cut out the light from inside, cap the wire, patch the insulation, patch the vapor barrier, patch the drywall, drink a beer?

You're in luck, I own the book. I like it because it never strays from core concepts. For example, the solution for that case study just lays out the basic reality: "condensation at a surface can be controlled by reducing the amount of moisture accessing the surface, elevating the temperature of the surface, or by removing the moisture once it gets to the surface". You can't do the second (requires reinsulating) or the third (requires rebuilding the assembly for proper ventilation), so you need to do the first. You can do the first by removing the moisture being transported (reducing the humidity in your home), removing access to the condensation surface (air sealing at the drywall plane), or by removing the transportation mechanism (depressurize your home so air tries to infiltrate your home instead of exfiltrate).

Air-sealing by removing the lights can be done, but don't do it until a professional who has seen your home says it needs to be done. If you have can lights in a cathedral ceiling it is "not good", but it also doesn't necessarily mean there is an issue or that it contributes to your other issues.

Like any thread, there is a bit of "blind men feeling an elephant" syndrome. We are reacting only to what we can see, which is what you are posting. We aren't diagnosing your home as much as we are diagnosing an incomplete model of your home. So hopefully the BPI contractor is a good one and can give you some answers. If they disagree with what this thread is telling you, keep in mind that no one in this thread has actually seen your home and this thread is probably just missing a key detail that is easily viewed onsite.

For example - is that really a bathroom right next to the soffit area where you have moisture issues? That is something worth investigating - for example, if the duct for the bathroom fan isn't properly sealed it would just be dumping warm, moist bathroom air into the roof right around where you're having issues.

Earth
Nov 6, 2009
Ask me about being a
SCUMBAG
SCALPER


College Slice

Your guy's insurance sucks.

I've had my insurance out for a leaking roof right after buying a house and they hooked me up with two contractors they liked working with. I picked one, got the bill and called up insurance again and they said it won't be worth claiming it as it was below the deductible for the year. My Seattle friends got half their issue paid for by insurance and I touched base with them and they didn't get increased premiums.

I guess it depends on who your insurance is and what state you live in.

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

Whether insurance will pay or not, they're not going to fix it. This is clearly complex, so I'm avoiding breaking any seals before I have to. Both opening drywall/siding or interacting with giant nightmare factory bureaucracies

Tezer posted:

You're in luck, I own the book. I like it because it never strays from core concepts. For example, the solution for that case study just lays out the basic reality: "condensation at a surface can be controlled by reducing the amount of moisture accessing the surface, elevating the temperature of the surface, or by removing the moisture once it gets to the surface". You can't do the second (requires reinsulating) or the third (requires rebuilding the assembly for proper ventilation), so you need to do the first. You can do the first by removing the moisture being transported (reducing the humidity in your home), removing access to the condensation surface (air sealing at the drywall plane), or by removing the transportation mechanism (depressurize your home so air tries to infiltrate your home instead of exfiltrate).

Air-sealing by removing the lights can be done, but don't do it until a professional who has seen your home says it needs to be done. If you have can lights in a cathedral ceiling it is "not good", but it also doesn't necessarily mean there is an issue or that it contributes to your other issues.

Like any thread, there is a bit of "blind men feeling an elephant" syndrome. We are reacting only to what we can see, which is what you are posting. We aren't diagnosing your home as much as we are diagnosing an incomplete model of your home. So hopefully the BPI contractor is a good one and can give you some answers. If they disagree with what this thread is telling you, keep in mind that no one in this thread has actually seen your home and this thread is probably just missing a key detail that is easily viewed onsite.

For example - is that really a bathroom right next to the soffit area where you have moisture issues? That is something worth investigating - for example, if the duct for the bathroom fan isn't properly sealed it would just be dumping warm, moist bathroom air into the roof right around where you're having issues.

Thanks! A couple people have mentioned heat recovery ventilators (HRV), so I'm starting to think that's part of the fix. Lower the inside pressure. Sounds like it requires installing ducts though

Sorry, we don't have recessed lights, or we do but not in the problem area. I was just talking about principles using the books example.

I think y'all have a good picture. You're not the first one to suspect the bathroom fan. I heard that the 2015 roofers may have fingered that as the culprit. It may be involved, but I'm fairly sure it's not the main issue. Thinking more, I wonder if the bathroom windows don't have the weird leak problem because the fan let's air out, so lower pressure differential in the bathroom. Even when the fan's not running you can see air flowing out.

mcgreenvegtables
Nov 2, 2004
Yum!

Ignore the haters posting in this thread. Armchair internet experts declaring half your house a teardown based on a few pictures are really being reckless with both your money and emotions. I think you are doing a great job trying to tackle this. It does make sense to put in the effort you are to educate yourself and pursue low-cost solutions, even if they have might have a low chance of working.

Let me be clear I am not an expert in this area. But if this really is an air exfiltration problem is it possible that there are a range of solutions that land at different points in the cost/effort/effectiveness/DIY-able plane? For example, and I am totally bullshitting here with zero experience, but what about something like pull the interior trim, throw up a vapor barrier, put up 1/4" drywall over it and redo trim as needed? Assuming that would actually work, while its clearly pretty crazy and not something any reputable contractor would do, it might be cheaper, less invasive, and more amenable to DIY than other options. Again, no idea if this would work, but there for sure have to be a range of things that would work that are going to be better for your personal situation than tearing down your house or trying to pass this problem on to someone else.

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

Right on, that's where I'm at. Again, I really don't mind people pointing out low quality elements. The pros that come in are infuriatingly reticent to do so. Also, if I pull it off, gonna be like

https://youtu.be/zkCNPl1Siz8

Jenkl
Aug 4, 2008


Not much to add but just wanted to say this thread is great and you're great for not being quick to make this someone else's problem. I appreciate that you'd like to see your little corner of the world better off than when you got there, even if it costs a bit of time and money.

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

I appreciate that, thought I'm not sure I can take too much credit. I'm fairly boxed in. Also, I had some pretty ugly thoughts in April when I first was getting the full picture. Bluffing some other bougie A-hole is far from the worst legal escape route.

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

Here's an email i sent to my mate in April. Maybe house shoppers can learn from my mistakes. Still, seems to me the only hard and fast way to not end up here is set your max budget and stick with it.

a month ago i had more cold hard cash than i thought i'd ever have in my life. today i'm in the hole, praying that nothing more goes wrong before i can climb back out. i think i'm repairing the strain to my marriage this caused, but still worried about that too. should i have hid the chips from my wife? should i have told her she can't be involved in the hand? she was clearly on tilt. i suppose i should have told her no, we can't make that bet, that's irresponsible and reckless. we can make a smaller bet instead. well, actually i did say that, but she was on tilt, so she said no we should go for it. so i said gently caress it, we got a strong hand, it'll probably work out, and if i say no and we have to fold pre-flop, that might be a bad situation for marital bliss. so in we went.
i maybe could have gotten us out of the hand at the turn, but i am bad at reading people, or no, that's not true, i read him fine. i'm just a chicken poo poo about making a move that people are going to be uncomfortable with. god damnit, i shoulda made those fuckers squirm. anyway, it goes to showdown, and she's all "yay we won" and i have to study the cards for a couple days but find that, nope we got taken to the loving cleaners. i mean real life chips are way harder to value than poker chips, so still don't really know the tally, but pretty sure it's six figures. i mean, i guess it's just money, but gently caress it hurts to get owned hard.

mcgreenvegtables
Nov 2, 2004
Yum!

Epitope posted:

I think y'all have a good picture. You're not the first one to suspect the bathroom fan. I heard that the 2015 roofers may have fingered that as the culprit. It may be involved, but I'm fairly sure it's not the main issue.

It seems like you are in a spot where it doesn't hurt to take some simple steps and this would be as good a starting point as any. Even if you don't think it's the main issue, it is pretty simple compared to other options. Not to mention someone in the thread who is an expert identified it as a possible source of your problems.

If I were you I'd take all the small pieces of diagnostic advice in this thread and just try it and see what seems to help. Buy some humidity sensors, maybe run a dehumidifier, look into the bathroom fan. You probably aren't ever going to figure this thing out 100%, especially not by posting pictures online and taking down a trim board here or there, so just get started with the easy stuff!

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

Ok so I took off the cover both inside and out. The pipe exits the housing parallel the roof so has to do a 90 degree turn. Still, I think I could see most of the run, and it all looks intact. Again, this was just redone, so hopefully it's done correctly, but agreed no reason to assume at this point. Also, the little flapper door thing hangs down when closed, but the ceiling is sloped, so at rest it's partially open. After noticing this, I put a butterfly baffle thing on the top. Maybe that's now increasing pressure inside and making my problem worse? However, part of my motivation was there is quite a large depression in the snow around that vent stack. Seems like a lot warmer than it should be. Needs better insulation there? Or is this another consequence of big pressure difference with inside greater than outside?

As far as the rafters, I still think this is separate. The worst of the soffit frost is a little bit away from that stack. And, the portion of the roof that is way too hot for no good reason (no snow left on it) is even further away.

The bathroom vent stack is just off the left side of this pic

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer



The worst frost is just to the outside of the addition side wall
The melted out section of roof is just to the inside of the same wall
The stack is pretty far to the left

i should have labeled the skylights, maybe no one can tell what is going on in this picture. Maybe i'll work more on it later

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

Here's a more labeled diagram, with some of the photos again. Hopefully this helps orient everything. The suspect wall is labeled with on the outside wide angle and the diagram, and the knifeboard is on that spot from the inside view







Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

Wasn't able to find a smoke pen locally, but I have the skills to DIY this one



Didn't find anything conclusive, but at least helped me get familiar with the technique. Could help me understand anything subsequent test results

Epitope
Nov 27, 2006



Grimey Drawer

Jesus Christ. It's like trying to do R1 level research at an undergraduate-only institution. They all know everything, and none of them will spend the time to do the work, let alone think through the problem.

The short version is we did a little more poking around diagnostic wise, but nothing really new there. We did more or less confirm the previous findings, which is something I guess. I hoped he would take on the job, or know someone who would. Maybe he'll get back, but as of now I'm still empty handed. At least he didn't charge the full quoted price before he left me with my dick in my hand.

The long version- I called and was very specific about what I was asking for. I said "blower door, thermal imager, and smoke pencil." And he said ya, though he was kinda suspect about the smoke so I wasn't going to be surprised if he didn't bring that. But he didn't run the blower door either. So I got one out of three. At least his camera was lightyears better than the last guy's, and we spent the time to turn up the heat and run the bathroom fans for a while. Still, I loving wanted the blower door camera test. I swear I saw air moving in the trouble area when the last guy had his blower door going (but his camera was out of batteries during that visit (rant about that visit here). So I said "if you brought your door, I'll pay extra for you to set it up" and he started to say ok, but then said na I don't want to. GAH! He did sit down with me and talk about details, and gave me a number of a guy who might be able to find engineering filings from the 2015 job. He was also very knowledgeable, an old timer that's been around. Very professional. Shared a lot of general theory. Gave a lot of assessments of what he saw that he liked, and what he saw that he didn't like. He pointed out elements I hadn't seen before. However. He contradicted himself. "It's a roof leak, it's not interior air" (goes outside and looks) "It's interior air, it's not a roof leak." Ah... "It's not related to the heat supply lines." (5 minutes later) "Hmm, I wonder about these heat supply lines." Ok, sure, whatever, you're making a judgement based on what you can see, no expectation you'll nail it right off the bat (despite the tone that implies you have). But when I bring up HRV he scoffs and says you don't need it (tone says they're a scam to bilk yuppies). Which, I still think it would help, but I don't really know. The one that's really throwing me for a loop is "oh that frost is normal." Like, what!? No, I'm pretty sure it's from the house cancer. Which it sounds like you agree I have, because you agree someone needs to come take down the cabinet and take down the drywall to find out what's going on. But not you though, you only do insurance jobs.

Also, "the work that's been done here is very high quality"

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Tezer
Jul 9, 2001



Epitope posted:

But when I bring up HRV he scoffs and says you don't need it (tone says they're a scam to bilk yuppies). Which, I still think it would help, but I don't really know. The one that's really throwing me for a loop is "oh that frost is normal." Like, what!? No, I'm pretty sure it's from the house cancer. Which it sounds like you agree I have, because you agree someone needs to come take down the cabinet and take down the drywall to find out what's going on. But not you though, you only do insurance jobs.

Also, "the work that's been done here is very high quality"

Frost is fine, until it starts damaging the building and then it is not fine.

An HRV should be used to establish balanced ventilation. It will help control interior humidity if you've got an existing issue, but that's just a byproduct of the way it works (similar to how air conditioning works - you buy the air conditioner to cool the air and dehumidification is just a nice byproduct).

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