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Crazy Joe Wilson
Jul 4, 2007

Justifiably Mad!


Drone posted:

Legacy was cool mostly because of Imperial Knights, which were cool and neat. Unlike Jedi, which are dumb and bad.

Hot take central over here.

Agreed, I remember as a kid reading the Legacy comics and thinking it was a great take on the franchise.

Too bad the conclusion to the whole series got shoved into 6 issues. And that Krayt came back and killed his second who honestly would've made a more interesting final villain.

That Dark Empire video is surprisingly well done. I really wish Disney would give the EU sources the DC Animated Universe and allow tons of different books to be turned into animated movies that don't have to be connected to their nucanon, but fat chance of that happening.

Crazy Joe Wilson fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Feb 24, 2021

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Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.



since the ps4/switch port got announced for republic commando. i am curious how the books are. i bought hard contact for cheap but how are the sequels?

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Dapper_Swindler posted:

since the ps4/switch port got announced for republic commando. i am curious how the books are. i bought hard contact for cheap but how are the sequels?

Bad to worse.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!


Dinosaur Gum

Dapper_Swindler posted:

since the ps4/switch port got announced for republic commando. i am curious how the books are. i bought hard contact for cheap but how are the sequels?

Karen Traviss is one of my favorite Star Wars authors....when she stays off in her own little Mando themed corner. The RepCom books are all real solid, but you have to be willing to go with the fact that everyone who is a POV character REALLY HATES JEDI and is a ride or die Mando lover

Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady


jivjov posted:

Karen Traviss is one of my favorite Star Wars authors....when she stays off in her own little Mando themed corner. The RepCom books are all real solid, but you have to be willing to go with the fact that everyone who is a POV character REALLY HATES JEDI and is a ride or die Mando lover
Yeah, they're pretty decent books as Star Wars goes.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


The first three books are quite good by Star Wads novels standards. Triple Zero I'd say is my favourite of them and the shenanigans they get up to competing with Delta Squad.

True Colors is also good but definitely weaker than Hard Contact and Trip Zip. Order 66 is bloated and tries to cover too much and ends poorly and ImpCom 501st is half of a good idea cut short by Traviss leaving the franchise in a huff and too much time spent trying to undo Troy Denning's attempt to murder her characters en masse during Invincible.

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



Dapper_Swindler posted:

since the ps4/switch port got announced for republic commando. i am curious how the books are. i bought hard contact for cheap but how are the sequels?

You already have her one good book, stay away from the rest.

Also, not sure if you know this or not, but just in case: there is very little overlap between the books and game. For the first book I think essentially none.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


Chairman Capone posted:

You already have her one good book, stay away from the rest.

Also, not sure if you know this or not, but just in case: there is very little overlap between the books and game. For the first book I think essentially none.

The prologue of the first book is an extended look at what happened to the rest of Darman's squad in the game's reveal trailer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8cf2YnkLgQ

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

Arcsquad12 posted:

The first three books are quite good by Star Wads novels standards.

Since the continuum of Star Wars novels stretches from, like, Iron Fist, to, like, Planet of Twilight, that's not saying much.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

Since the continuum of Star Wars novels stretches from, like, Iron Fist, to, like, Planet of Twilight, that's not saying much.

Exactly.

Still, the first three books are decent reads while the rest can be ignored.

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.



jivjov posted:

Karen Traviss is one of my favorite Star Wars authors....when she stays off in her own little Mando themed corner. The RepCom books are all real solid, but you have to be willing to go with the fact that everyone who is a POV character REALLY HATES JEDI and is a ride or die Mando lover

Chairman Capone posted:

You already have her one good book, stay away from the rest.

Also, not sure if you know this or not, but just in case: there is very little overlap between the books and game. For the first book I think essentially none.

thanks for the replies. yeah, i'll probably stick with hard contact and if i enjoy it, i'll pick up the others too.

https://www.starwars.com/news/the-secrets-of-the-sith-exclusive-reveal

i guess this is coming out, how was secrets of the jedi compared to the old essential guides?

edit: oh its an out and outs kids book, ehh gently caress that.

Cross-Section
Mar 18, 2009



So the last book in the Alphabet Squadron trilogy came out yesterday; I finished it today.

And... well, I'm actually thinking it may be the best novel of the modern canon.

Basically, without spoiling anything, Freed manages some drat complex character work while also straight-up tackling one of the bigger franchise "themes" in a way that thoroughly critiques it while also supporting it, in a sense.

The whole thing is laden with pain and emotion and pew-pews and I could not be happier with how the trilogy as a whole turned out.

Humerus
Jul 7, 2009

Rule of acquisition #111:
Treat people in your debt like family...exploit them.




Cross-Section posted:

So the last book in the Alphabet Squadron trilogy came out yesterday; I finished it today.

And... well, I'm actually thinking it may be the best novel of the modern canon.

Basically, without spoiling anything, Freed manages some drat complex character work while also straight-up tackling one of the bigger franchise "themes" in a way that thoroughly critiques it while also supporting it, in a sense.

The whole thing is laden with pain and emotion and pew-pews and I could not be happier with how the trilogy as a whole turned out.

My hold for this came through (I'm assuming my library bought more copies) but I'm reading something else so I won't get to this until next week but I'm glad to hear it. I really enjoyed the first two.

In other news, I read Into the Dark, Claudia Gray's entry to the High Republic, and I liked it much more than Light of the Jedi. The two stories kind of intersect so it's probably "better" to read Light of the Jedi first but since it wasn't very good a wiki summary would be fine. Or not honestly, I think there's enough in Into the Dark to understand what's happening regardless. If you liked Master & Apprentice this has a similar feel.

Cross-Section
Mar 18, 2009



Humerus posted:

In other news, I read Into the Dark, Claudia Gray's entry to the High Republic, and I liked it much more than Light of the Jedi. The two stories kind of intersect so it's probably "better" to read Light of the Jedi first but since it wasn't very good a wiki summary would be fine. Or not honestly, I think there's enough in Into the Dark to understand what's happening regardless. If you liked Master & Apprentice this has a similar feel.

I agree, it feels a lot tighter and more intimate (which is a fun word to use considering how they address Jedi celibacy in this book) than Light of the Jedi did. I like that the Drengir are basically Audrey IIs but Star Wars.

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012

Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.




Wedge Regret

Cross-Section posted:

The whole thing is laden with pain and emotion and pew-pews and I could not be happier with how the trilogy as a whole turned out.

I just finished it myself, and this is the best summary of it and the trilogy as a whole. Freed has definitely become one of my favorite authors in the new EU, as Iíve enjoyed all of his stuff that Iíve read.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

Horned Rat-Sempai Noticed Me!


It's still a lol that Disney de-canonized the EU only to bring back the dumbest aspects in the movies.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

SirPhoebos posted:

It's still a lol that Disney de-canonized the EU only to bring back the dumbest aspects in the movies.

This has come up before, but they de-canonized them so they didn't have to just recap them in some sort of "previously on", not because they didn't like any aspect of them. "Did you know Luke has a kid? Yeah. With who? Doesn't matter, she died. Who killed her? *sigh* Sit down, this is gonna take a while."

"Please don't ask where Chewie is."

Van Dis
Jun 19, 2004


Is that attested somewhere official? Because it does not pass the sniff test: the sequels begin in medias res of the dominance of the first order and sequestration of Luke etc

Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady


None of which existed in the old EU so...

Kind of an inescapable conclusion.

Van Dis
Jun 19, 2004


One thing I definitely do not conclude when looking at the sequel trilogy is that planning the narrative with an eye towards internal coherence and integrity was a prime goal, so unless there's a source for that claim I remain skeptical.

General Battuta
Feb 7, 2011

This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

Van Dis posted:

One thing I definitely do not conclude when looking at the sequel trilogy is that planning the narrative with an eye towards internal coherence and integrity was a prime goal, so unless there's a source for that claim I remain skeptical.

They tossed out the EU because it was too complicated to explain, then they set about making a new sequel trilogy which ended up being a complicated mess. Since they tossed out the EU first, the way the sequel trilogy turned out isn't really relevant to that decision.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Van Dis posted:

Is that attested somewhere official? Because it does not pass the sniff test: the sequels begin in medias res of the dominance of the first order and sequestration of Luke etc

Oh it's entirely an assumption on my part, but I feel like it's a safe one. If they were going to include the original characters in any way, which, let's face it, they were always going to, they were going to need to set it around 30 years after the OT to explain the age difference. At that point you could either include the old EU or not. If you included the old EU, you could ignore certain parts of it because who cares about the Truce at Bakura, for example. But some stuff you just couldn't ignore. Like where's Chewie? Oh, he was killed by a race of masochistic aliens who were invisible from the Force who dropped a moon on him. Han and Leia? They had 3 kids. One of which was killed by the aforementioned masochistic aliens, one of which turned evil and was killed by the 3rd kid. Luke has a son. His wife? Killed by the evil Han and Leia kid. And that's just for starters, before your first movie even gets started. It was so much easier for them to just say, "Forget it, the entire EU is gone, we're starting over."

Now, how they handled it after that point is not something I'm debating here. But I totally get why they did what they did. They wanted to attract more than just the fans of the old EU, so rather than explain what the hell happened there, they excised it, and pull from it when they want to.

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



They also probably didn't want to be forced adapt whatever would be at that point in the timeline. If you're trying to hire writers and directors to make the first new Star Wars movie in a decade (and the official sequel to the movies they grew up with), telling them they have to adapt the Dark Nest trilogy is really going to get a lot of talent backing out of the project.

Lucas' own treatments totally ignored the EU, and I'm guessing the video game version of Episode VII that Lucasarts was working on prior to that would have only used it as a starting point as well (allegedly it would have starred Ben Skywalker as the playable character).

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

Incredible machine.





I will say, as much as I have a soft spot for the old EU and really don't like most of what they've done with nuCanon, I am supremely loving thankful that they tossed the concept of Jacen Solo out the window.

Though Kylo Ren does have a looot of Jacen in him.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

Horned Rat-Sempai Noticed Me!


thrawn527 posted:

Oh it's entirely an assumption on my part, but I feel like it's a safe one. If they were going to include the original characters in any way, which, let's face it, they were always going to, they were going to need to set it around 30 years after the OT to explain the age difference. At that point you could either include the old EU or not. If you included the old EU, you could ignore certain parts of it because who cares about the Truce at Bakura, for example. But some stuff you just couldn't ignore. Like where's Chewie? Oh, he was killed by a race of masochistic aliens who were invisible from the Force who dropped a moon on him. Han and Leia? They had 3 kids. One of which was killed by the aforementioned masochistic aliens, one of which turned evil and was killed by the 3rd kid. Luke has a son. His wife? Killed by the evil Han and Leia kid. And that's just for starters, before your first movie even gets started. It was so much easier for them to just say, "Forget it, the entire EU is gone, we're starting over."

Now, how they handled it after that point is not something I'm debating here. But I totally get why they did what they did. They wanted to attract more than just the fans of the old EU, so rather than explain what the hell happened there, they excised it, and pull from it when they want to.

I totally get why they did it. I just find it hilarious that they wound up at the exact same spot.

Disney: Gentlemen, I give you...MORE STAR WARS
This thread: Ah geeze, I don't know about that after the last time.
Disney: This time....SHALL BE DIFFERENT!
This thread:...well okay, I would like some good Star Wars-
Disney: ITS NOT DIFFERENT AT ALL, IS IT STEVE?!?

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



Robot Style posted:

Lucas' own treatments totally ignored the EU, and I'm guessing the video game version of Episode VII that Lucasarts was working on prior to that would have only used it as a starting point as well (allegedly it would have starred Ben Skywalker as the playable character).

Not quite all of the EU, it did have Darth Talon!

I think the splintering of the EU was obvious to everyone as soon as the Disney purchase was announced, but I think the more surprising element for many was that they just shut the entire EU continuity down rather than keeping it as an ongoing alternate universe, the way the Marvel comics continue to exist in a separate continuity from the MCU.

But that being said, it is funny that after decades of movie-only fans using Dark Empire, the Empire surviving after ROTJ, Super Duper Superweapons, Glove of Darth Vader, and Jacen Solo turning into Vader Jr. as a way to put down the EU... those became core aspects of the new movies.

I do think it also says a lot that the new movies and shows are packed with old EU references, while almost completely ignoring the new in-canon EU. Terex was mentioned once in Resistance, the valachord was mentioned in Solo, and Mandalorian S2 had a few direct references (mainly from Aftermath) but other than that, you can tell pretty much everyone involved is a lot more excited to refer to the old EU than the new stuff.

Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady


Van Dis posted:

One thing I definitely do not conclude when looking at the sequel trilogy is that planning the narrative with an eye towards internal coherence and integrity was a prime goal, so unless there's a source for that claim I remain skeptical.
That's one hell of a goalpost shift you've pulled there, but you'll just have to take Star Wars dot com's word for it.

Chairman Capone posted:

I think the splintering of the EU was obvious to everyone as soon as the Disney purchase was announced, but I think the more surprising element for many was that they just shut the entire EU continuity down rather than keeping it as an ongoing alternate universe, the way the Marvel comics continue to exist in a separate continuity from the MCU.
The story for The Old Republic is still going. There was a small expansion last week.

Van Dis
Jun 19, 2004


The argument I question is that Disney saw the EU as too complex to explain. I think that's nonsense. They obviously threw it out so they could simply do their own thing, and not "In order to give maximum creative freedom to the filmmakers" as that blurb states. The idea that a director, especially of the kind Disney would hire, would pull out of a Star Wars project because of limits on creative freedom stretches credulity way past its breaking point. "Preserving the element of surprise" is a believable reason but not much, because unexpected twists are not what drives movie ticket sales. It was very simply a good decision to discard almost all of the EU and establish their own narrative over which they had control, decision which have nothing to do with the ostensible complexity of the stories. And of course the fact that some of the worst elements have been brought back is completely hilarious.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


The fact that Mando could just as easily take place in the old EU as in Disney EU tells me that it has nothing to do with how dumb the Old EU definitely got and more to do with what the writers and directors wanted to get out of their live action stories.

Arquinsiel
Jun 1, 2006

"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady


Van Dis posted:

too complex to explain.

Van Dis posted:

"In order to give maximum creative freedom to the filmmakers"

Van Dis posted:

establish their own narrative over which they had control
These are all the same thing.

ETA: well, apart from where you tried to move the goalposts in the first one again.

surf rock
Aug 12, 2007



I agree with the person who said it's only surprising that Disney didn't let the old EU continue to live on an as alternative universe thing. Which, I guess they technically still could (and they are still printing the books after all), but it seems unlikely. But yeah, even before the Disney sale the EU was only canon until a movie or show contradicted it.

That said, it is interesting to see the old EU references in the new canon. It's no surprise; many of the people who are Star Wars obsessives now were Star Wars obsessives before the Disney transition, including content creators. I feel like we're living in a world where Disney's creatives pick-and-choose from the old EU but just picked bad poo poo, like Dark Empire.

What should they have grabbed instead while doing their EU remix? I guess the obvious answer is the Thrawn trilogy, but what were the other options?

- X-wing (too big of a focus-shift to be the sequel trilogy but perfect for a TV show or a spinoff movie series; this is the EU content I would want adapted most)
- Bounty Hunter Wars (let's loving gooooooooooooooooo)
- Jedi Academy (with some reworks I could see it being this)
- Black Fleet Crisis (just worse NJO)
- Corellian trilogy (hahahaha)
- NJO (I think this is the only other realistic alternative to the Thrawn trilogy, but that's an incredible amount of condensing needed for a trilogy)

Anything post-NJO would just be too wildly different to re-establish. Personally, I would've preferred NJO or even Jedi Academy to Thrawn for a sequel trilogy.

Defenestrategy
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


surf rock posted:

What should they have grabbed instead while doing their EU remix? I guess the obvious answer is the Thrawn trilogy, but what were the other options?


A lot of the Clonewars/pre-new hope stuff was pretty good reading in my opinion. Post ANH I didn't read much beyond Bounty Hunter Wars, Thrawn, Jedi Academy, and Xwing. I remember Shadows of the Empire being fine, although they'd probably have to tweek Xizor a bit to be less gross and I don't remember having a negative opinion on the Dark Forces stuff, beyond Kyle Katarn becoming kinda boring.

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



Arquinsiel posted:

The story for The Old Republic is still going. There was a small expansion last week.

Yeah, that's true (and Squadrons even just had a tie-in thing to The Old Republic too) but it's a pretty unique case given The Old Republic was already kind of its own little corner without a lot of connection to the rest of the EU,* and the game was one of the most expensive games ever and had been out for less than a year as of the Disney purchase, so to just shut it down with the EU ending would have been an enormous waste of money (almost as much as they lost on Solo!)

In contrast, just before the Disney purchase Dark Horse relaunched its main Star Wars comic title as a completely separate series with no connection to the rest of the EU or anything beyond ANH, and even that just got shut down with the reboot rather than continuing (though I guess there's an argument to be made that the new Marvel comic is essentially a continuation de facto).

*Ironically some of the only direct nods to The Old Republic were from The Clone Wars, with the Jedi training ship, as well as Darth Bane's tomb being the Sith Academy from TOR.

surf rock
Aug 12, 2007



Defenestrategy posted:

A lot of the Clonewars/pre-new hope stuff was pretty good reading in my opinion.

My focus was on a sequel trilogy, but speaking of the prequels, I'd love a movie or show adapting the MedStar books. Space M*A*S*H made for a helluva story.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

I think Dark Empire is legit one of the best ways to have done the sequels. Sure, there's garbage in there that should stay buried, like the steamships and whatever, but if you wanted to draw a throughline from the prequels, having it be the Skywalkers discovering and putting an end to Palpatine's quest for eternal life is a pretty good one.

X-Wing series and some of the other stuff should always be spin-offs, a lot of them don't really deal with the gestalt totality of Star Wars. A Star Wars "main" story needs to deal with the Force mysticism parts of it as well as the mil-SF parts of it, and Dark Empire does both.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Mar 9, 2021

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



as long as you can fit a bunch of imperial remnant warlords like zsinj in there i think you could still adapt a lot of the non-han/luke/leia-focused stories from the old EU. i do think X-WIng makes the most sense...they're basically everyone's favorites, and who hasn't wanted to see corran horn (he's so dreamy) on TV?

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

I think Dark Empire is legit one of the best ways to have done the sequels. Sure, there's garbage in there that should stay buried, like the steamships and whatever, but if you wanted to draw a throughline from the prequels, having it be the Skywalkers discovering and putting an end to Palpatine's quest for eternal life is a pretty good one.

Yeah, it was for this reason that I always liked either the Dark Empire idea, or Plagueis being Snoke. Those seemed like the only ways to actually make it feel like all nine movies were connected thematically in some way. Really, I get why they did it, but running away from the prequels so hard (along with being so desperate the "recapture" the OT) was the worst thing they could have done with the sequels in terms of making all nine feel like a cohesive whole.

I still harp on this but I can't believe that not only did we never get a Luke/Ghost Anakin interaction, but the name "Anakin" itself was never even spoken in the sequels. Or Padme's name. Or even the fact that Vader was redeemed at the end of his life, given how Kylo's entire motivation was "I'll never be as evil as Vader."

I think part of it was also that Lawrence Kasdan co-wrote TFA and I honestly don't think he ever saw the prequels. He gave some interview right after TFA came out about how Kylo was such a unique villain because he wasn't always evil, he started as a Jedi and turned evil, and... I mean, that was the entire trajectory of Anakin, the grandfather who Kylo literally worships.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?





College Slice

I was pretty pissed off because it was super obvious in TFA that Rey was supposed to be a Skywalker all along, like they all but put it in neon. Then Rian Johnson hit and they had to retroactively make her a Skywalker via Palpatine like Anakin.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!


Dinosaur Gum

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:

I was pretty pissed off because it was super obvious in TFA that Rey was supposed to be a Skywalker all along, like they all but put it in neon. Then Rian Johnson hit and they had to retroactively make her a Skywalker via Palpatine like Anakin.

Abrams and Kasdan never signposted Rey as being related to anyone in particular. It was a signature abrams style hollow mystery box where the answer to what's inside was Somebody Else's Problem.

Johnson went the character-first route of "what's the hardest thing Rey can hear about her family?" For Luke, it was "this guy who I thought killed my father, and my mentor, turns out to actually be my father." Rey didn't have any knowledge or preconceived notions about who her family was, she just wanted to know who they were, and why they left her, and how she "fits in". So the hardest thing she could hear is "they're nobody. Just randos. Sold you off for drinking money. Sorry kiddo".

It was a focus on telling the story of Rey, not putting Rey's journey on a mirror to the OT with a Big drat Reveal at the heart of the second installment.

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General Battuta
Feb 7, 2011

This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

Yeah I liked that a lot. The ďletís do something newĒ message was so right for that middle installment. Anything couldíve happened in the third one! Anything at allllllll

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