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TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.

orangelex44 posted:

So there's really no way for you to tell your main carrier group, which has been moving in absolute secrecy, that it's a stupid loving idea to randomly bomb a couple small freighters with 50 planes on your way to surprise attack one of your enemies' major naval bases? This game is so weird sometimes.

Yes, you can tell them not to attack anything. But that can go badly when you blunder into an enemy carrier fleet or wander into range of Land-Based Air like Grey Hunter famously did in his LP, or more relevantly miss opportunity to hit the targets you were after like BBs or transiting carriers.

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TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
Though I've never evacuated Singapore by airlift specifically, I do dedicate a lot of my Catalinas to airlift in the first few months when I'm not going to be sending my carriers out in hostile waters anyway. Really the Catalina is so good as a multirole that you usually wish you had 10x as many.

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
I thought damage wasn't entirely random, it was determined by the number of engineers that were there when the facility was taken.

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
Almost all reinforcements for the India line arrive at Aden. In theory it's possible to prevent them from reaching India itself, but in practice intercepting a well-protected convoy before it lands, all the way out at the end of your logistical tether would be near impossible.

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.

orangelex44 posted:

I guess the logic would be that you would be taking troops/planes/supplies out of a backwater theater (Thailand/Burma) and push them to the front of an important one (India). Of course, that cleanup process would take a decent amount of time and I can understand the thinking that time is way more valuable than the troops right now. It just hurts to see Burma there as an ongoing threat to the backline, albeit a relatively minor one. I don't know how self-sufficient the area is, and whether Burma can continuously supply a couple air wings. Ground-wise it's probably not a huge concern unless the Allies try some hail-mary backdoor push towards Bangkok (starving and being bombed the entire way most likely).

It's an interesting approach to the early war in general, at least from the perspective of someone who doesn't actually play WitP. Is mostly ignoring everything south and east of Rabaul in favor of a strong push towards the Indian Ocean somehow a mechanically favorable option over trying to cut off the Australia/US supply line and pushing out the buffer zone Pearl-wards, or is that just the way this game ended up playing out? I can see advantages to both strategies from a pure "lines on the map" point of view. Both of them have the same opening anyway, it's vital to get the Dutch supply/oil centers and secure the backline of the Philippines and Singapore.

Early autovictory basically needs a massive success in one ahistorical theater (India/Australia/Hawaii/NZ+) and a moderate effort in a second. Points come from a combination of bases and smashing enemy forces so hard that the loss ratio is horrifically lopsided. But one setback or slowdown and you probably can't reach it, it's probably a stretch this game already.

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
Japanese are better at night fights early on in Witp, but realistically the British had the best radar and radar use in the world. Supposedly the sets were a bit unreliable in the tropics though. Not sure how much of this is modeled.

Good catch.

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
Of course radar is modelled terribly. I don't know why I expected anything different...


Pharnakes posted:

It's just, I don't know, Grigsby's design philosophy in a nut shell really. Gun porn is the best way I can think to describe it? Like they obsessed over the different variants of the 5/38 so the matrix regulars will go ohh this gun has the right name, but actually they are all the same.

Radar isn't shooty or soothing to their repressed homo erotic desires so it's ignored, but they'll definitely make stat blocks for obscure nonsense that was never used operationally, and some times doesn't even appear in any TOE!


Ok maybe that's a little harsh, but this game is sooo good and could have been so much better if there was someone who actually knew what UX was to steer their efforts a little better. It's just wasted potential, the thrill of casting every turn into the unknown, and of seeing plans brewed over many months come to fruition is unmatched by anything other than the dominions series. It really wouldn't have been that hard to make it more accessible/even out some of the crazier decisions.

It was never going to be mainstream, of course not, but this thread is generating 500 views a day or whatever, but so let's say 100 people are following relatively closely. BUt of that 100, do even 20 of you have the game? And who amongst you have tried to play a PBEM? (The AI is a totally different and really pretty poo poo game).


Don't even get me started on submarines.

The worst thing is other games while still super groggy at least get the feel right with enough polish that the frustrations don't get in the way. Not much polish, but the barest minimum to make the game something a decent playerbase actually *wants* to play or pbem. I guess Dominions is the LP favorite and the one I was best at and played the most, CMANO another good example especially in LP form, and I used to PBEM a really old 4X called Stars! that had this feel too (Aurora would be the closest modern equivalent).

But even with all those games under my belt I never really got farther than one game vs AI in WITP.


wedgekree posted:

Somewhere in here is the capacity for a coherent game that has a digestible UI, relatively sane organizational systems, coherent ground combat, command and control..

But that would require mostly remaking the game from the frame up or at least tearing out a lot of stuff and putting it in again.

It'd be a different game, taking cues from WITP, one where the market is tiny though so... unlikely that we'll see anytime soon.

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
Many of the naval battles in the Guadalcanal campaign had to do with defending the airfield from naval bombardment.

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
The fastest way out would be one of the off-map bases, though they'd have to slip by Ceylon. Cape Town if you reach the left map edge. Aden (Suez) on the north map edge but it's much farther away since you have to round India to get to them. Escaping to Perth is about as far as escaping to Aden so everyone is almost 100% steaming left towards the map edge for Cape Town (west but actually its not really west anymore due to the map distortion).

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.

Affi posted:

Can they reinsert those boats anywhere after they escape the map edge ?

You basically go around the map edge bases in a circle, and it takes a fixed time to travel between depending on distance. So they don't like, teleport instantly or anything, a ship traveling between map edge bases is basically gone for weeks to months. From map edge bases you can re-enter the map from the same hexes that a ship can leave from (each base has a set line of hexes where the ships can enter/leave, it's not like its the entire map edge)

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.

Grammarchist posted:

What's the upper limit of what a Japanese player can accomplish in Australia? I don't usually follow these games outside of SA.

It's entirely possible to take the whole thing.

Realistically you'll take Darwin, Perth, and the east coast to Brisbane, and leave the Sydney/Melbourne/Adelaide area out to hang. But defending that from a counterattack later is extremely exposed so if you're going for autovictory you may as well gamble for the whole thing. Chances are the reinforcements the allies can ship in will stop you though.

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
It's incredibly easy to turn India into an army point meatgrinder that does not favor the Japanese, so I'm not too sure I'm actually worried about this invasion if I'm on the other side. Defending against it would be very difficult, but locking in the forces there a month or three later should not be hard.

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
I presume that is the Amagi-class Atago that was never completed IRL?

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
The more stacked an airfield is the more damage bombardments can do, so spreading out your planes among more airfields and building those airfields bigger is a good tactic to start.
That's disregarding range, as everyone has pointed out you can base long-ranged bombers farther away.
Then go hard on recon around any major coastal targets you have and have some naval strike to punish. Note how the bombardment mission had to turn back once due to getting detected, even for a smashing success like this if it costs a BB it's not really worthwhile.
Finally recon will help you intercept bombardment missions with fleets aimed to destroy them, or slow them / have them expend ammo.


That said sneaking battleships into Port Moresby is actually a lot harder than it seems after a huge success like this, the approaches are super risky, long-range, and linear.

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
Watch the orders for the two carrier groups get separated again...

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
That's a pretty lucky day. Even if the Devastators are bad the low level torpedo runs can still draw CAP away from the dive bombers. So you're at the perfect range and also took low damage "hits".

Still, 6v3 should be in your favor so... if you had traded 2 for 2 it would have been unexpected in a bad way.

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.

orangelex44 posted:

I find it darkly funny that Milne Bay has somehow continued to escalate in that same stupid way as so many other historical battles.

Japan: "We're just gonna grab this quick, it's not really that important so we won't invest much but it should be a minor annoyance a year from now."

Allies: "Japan's landed some troops here, there aren't that many and we don't super care but it looks like it should be an excellent place to train our bombers in the meantime."

Japan: "For some loving reason the Allies are bringing dozens of bombers to loving murder these 200 guys... we're in fighter range though, so let's put up some CAP. Probably should also throw some engineers in and fort up, we'll save some supplies that way."

Allies: "Why in the hell are there Zeroes sweeping over this pissant little base now? And is that a level 2 fort? What the hell are they planning here... better bring in the surface ships to smash the place, they're in-theater anyway and we can gain a bit of initiative to start slogging towards Rabaul."

Japan: "Why are there battleships here? Good thing we brought the Kido Butai out this way, they can quick divert to murder these dudes before the US carriers show up."

Allies: "Oh poo poo, that's got to be the majority of the Japanese carrier fleet.... Maybe we have an opportunity here..."

Milne Bay: "This place sucks dick can we leave please"

Pharnakes posted:

Remember this post.

orangelex44 posted:

Christ, it gets worse? That stupid little beach has already caused the sinking of two fleet carriers (albeit indirectly), what's left to escalate to? The entirety of the Japanese battleship fleet?

Here we go.

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.

SIGSEGV posted:

You'd better hope so, a game like that starts with a couple turns a day and then slows to one a day, roughly, because keeping so many people in sync is really hard, so you get a day to think about things and one of those things is the game, so you think about it in the shower, you think about it in the subway, you think about it while peeling potatoes, and then, because it's high level play, and even more if everyone is documenting it in an AAR thread and you're getting involved in your success, you've got an audience after all, you figure out that you're going to see who built what first, based on score, and after doing that the first time, there's no harm in keeping on doing it, right?

I've done this for Dominions 4 and for Yooper's CMANO let's plays, daily turn strategy games at a decent level are super engaging and if you let it into your brain you think about it every free moment you get. I even used a note app so that any time I have my phone I can jot note ideas, though thankfully that was not the only reason I had a note app.

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
Page 52 of this report shows Japanese aerial torpedo production during the war. Ironically the tables are mislabeled, the first one is units and the second is yen value.
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200D-0471-0529%20Report%200-01-2.pdf

710 in 1941
1200 in 1942
1800 in 1943
3893 in 1944
849 in 1945
total: 8452

The US built 16600 Mk 13 and 4000 Mk 24 (antisubmarine) torpedoes according to this source:
https://maritime.org/doc/jolie/part1.htm

TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
I'm trying to think why there's active shipping in the Gulf of Carpentaria and I can only presume he's shipping supplies in from Normanton.

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TheDemon
Dec 11, 2006

...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.
Four simultaneous cross-continent paradrop operations into nearly unscouted hexes need to go right. And if there are 10k men in Bombay surely Surat or Poona must be defended somewhat? Not only that but there must not be any units moving from Bombay to Hyderabad, or to Bellary, which would both be natural routes for reinforcements.

Well, good luck to you.

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