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Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Lord_Magmar posted:

No, he was already motivated to do terrible things, but it went from a simple desire to be someone important to trying to take over the world. His morality decayed as his power and wish grew.

I haven't even seen the movie yet and I got this. Absolute power corrupts/reveals absolutely.

I'm not sure how this was expressed by Diana accidentally? raping some dude, but whatever. Is that part a thing during the movie? Like, does Diana know that she's loving some stranger's body with Steve's spirit in it or something? Does she ever meet the actual guy who was housing Steve's spirit like the whole thing was some extended "meet cute" for WW3? "Oh, yeah, Bob. Right. I was loving you while my dead boyfriend was possessing you. Good to see you again."

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Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


hump day bitches! posted:

80 witness gave testimony.People still think this is Fisher shitposting and being mad. After what happened this year and people still deploy that poo poo.

I'll own that. If I hadn't heard about Fisher's situation in this very thread with all the attendant details, "Hollywood actor-baby whining" would absolutely have been my take based on clocking the headline of the story which I would not have bothered to read in any detail due to the aforementioned "take."

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


sean10mm posted:

Saw Ant-Man and the Wasp and it was surprisingly good!

I liked that they just went hog wild with the shrinking/growing gimmick and applied it to every goddamn thing without shame.

And for a more superficially more jokey character Ant-Man is actually less of a generic Marvel snark character than most in this movie.

The thing I like most about the Ant-Man movies is the way the stakes are vitally important, but mostly personal in nature.

If Hank and Hope can't retrieve her in time, they'll lose Janet, who is Hank's wife and Hope's mother forever, suffering that grief all over again.

If Scott gets caught by the FBI, he goes to prison, losing his friends and the chance to be in his daughter's life.

If Luis and co. can't land that one account, they lose their business and (non-criminal) livelihoods.

If Ghost can't get cured, she dies an agonizing death after living an agonizing life.

If Sonny can't get the lab, he faces unnamed but likely fatal consequences from his other business associates.

If Woo fails to catch Scott and Scott does some big criminal act, Woo suffers humiliation and probable demotion.

But in the larger scheme of things (absent Scott's involvement in the plot of Endgame), so what? Bad things happen to some of these people and their circle of associates, but there's no real direct consequences for the city/state/country/world. The movie itself drives that home in the mid-credits scene. After everything that was done in the movie, those folks are Snapped out of existence anyway.

And I Floved that. I Floved that an MCU movie had the stones to keep the stakes personal instead of "OMFG if we don't stop this, the Super-Duper Cosmverse will be destroyed for the whole of forever!"

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


teagone posted:

Here, have this loving clown explain how to you, lmao:

quote:

a loving clown posted:

worthless crap

So the loving clown (who likely does not actually gently caress all that much because potential sex partner find him (it's almost certainly a him) to be distasteful) posits that it is somehow impossible for someone not a fully Caucasian to be racially bigoted?

That seems absurd on its face. It's completely possible for a Black or Asian or (obviously) half-Lebanese person to show bigotry. The reason it's worse when we White people do it is because it has teeth. A poor Black woman might hate all white men equally with every atom of her soul. But she can't deny them employment. Or screw them out of benefits and housing. Or get them killed by calling the police on them. White people can do and have done all of those things and more.

And given what has happened to Parker, it seems pretty clear that Johns' racism also has teeth.


teagone posted:

How the hell can anyone go to bat for the corporate side of things? It's so goddamn shameful and infuriating.

"I want what I want when I want it and God gently caress anyone or anything that even appears to get in the way of that."

AKA how White culture have treated non-White cultures every chance they've gotten.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Roth posted:

I want to watch movies too, but there's more movies than just ok adaptations of comic books.

They want what they want. Recall the outpouring of grief with Chadwick Boseman died. Figure some of it was unmixed, from the people who really knew him. But among the comic-book movie crowd, you know drat well that 99% of their "grief" came from "But, but what does that mean for Black Panther 2 and Phase 4 of the MCU?!"

That's pretty true for everybody to some degree or another. It's just more obvious due to neckbeardy entitlement of comic book fans who watch the movies about their universe.

Yeah, that last bit was awkwardly phrased but I wanted to pin down the detail. I'm not talking about the people who go see Justice League because "It looks fun." I'm talking the Cat Piss creatures who care deeply about this stuff. The ones who thought (and posted) that Zendaya playing the (fictional, not actually real, made the gently caress up) character of MJ was wrong because "Mary Jane is actually white!" Those fuckers.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Robot Style posted:

I feel like the show would be more interesting if the pastiche was more biting. Yeah, it's supposed to be an idealized version of a world where Wanda and Vision can be together, but keeping the less savory elements of the time these old sitcoms take place in could help to sell that there's something wrong with it. Both of the episodes released so far have centered around Wanda and Vision having to hide their otherness to fit in (Vision even needs to present as a white guy to be able to go to work), but the neighborhood is pretty ethnically diverse for 1950's/60's TV suburbia. Even Vision's Boss' communist paranoia is treated as a joke with the benefit of hindsight, but clashes with the format of the show being firmly rooted within the era where it wouldn't seem out of place.

It's not supposed to be biting or edgy. This is Wanda's Happy Place. When Wanda was a kid she was probably stuck watching crappy American sitcom reruns with her brother in much happier times. Figure after Endgame with Thanos gone and Vision still gone, Wanda cracked up and made this place as her Happy Place. And she's apparently pulled a bunch of other people with her into her own personal Pleasantville.

That episode of The Twilight Zone with the creepy-rear end kid who sent people "to the cornfield" if they displeased him? That's kind of who Wanda is here - that kid. Under the goofy sitcom schtick, something kind of horrific is happening. The tension is here is will Wanda come back to herself or get snapped out of this before she does something truly awful to keep living her fantasy life?

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Burkion posted:

I watched the first episode and boy they sure did make a boring thing.

That's about it. It's a 5 minute gag stretched out for 24 minutes. Wanda and Vision are in a 1950s I Love Lucy style sitcom!

Only they didn't include any actual humor in it, and the only bit of real character stuff comes in at the 20 minute mark

Actually they're pretty much in a Dick Van Dyke style sitcom and they nailed it really well. Plus, I thought they did pretty well with the humor. Olsen and Bettany are great when they're not having to shoulder a bunch of self-important superhero BS.

BTW for a really weird pop culture mashup, go watch Elizabeth Olsen's 2013 In Secret. Wanda Maximoff is unhappily married to Draco Malfoy, so she has an affair with Poe Dameron.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


galenanorth posted:

I never liked WandaVision because they seemed to have a big enough age gap that it was creepy. I'd assumed Quicksilver and Wanda were teenagers in Age of Ultron whereas Vision had been some billionaire's AI butler for seven years. Aside from that, they had less then three scenes together before they tried to sell us on suddenly having a romance after a timeskip.

It could have been worse. Vision could have sparkled in sunlight.

Edited to Add: Seriously though, one thing that greatly reduces the potential "squick level" of this is the fact that Elizabeth Olsen plays Wanda as an all-the-way-grown-up woman instead of as a little girl playing house. Whatever the characters' ages are supposed to be (Wanda 20? Vision 9?) Wanda looks like a woman in her late 20s/early 30s (Elizabeth Olsen turns 32 in February). So, yeah, a spoonful of clear physical/mental maturity does help the "Wait, how old are these people again?" go down.

Everyone fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Jan 17, 2021

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Darko posted:

I kind of liked WandaVision? It just came off as a quirky Dick Van Dyke show and Bewitched style sitcom that just happened to star two Marvel characters. And I thought a few things were kind of funny, mainly due to how Bettany carried it.

I actually wish they stayed in Pleasantville instead of it eventually turning into normal MCU stuff. The reason I like it now is because its actually different.

They're not actually coming into "normal MCU stuff" yet. As I understand it, the idea is that every episode will occur in a different sitcom. The last two were The Dick Van Dyke Show and Bewitched(which actually transitioned into color episodes during its run. Next up is supposed to be The Brady Bunch.

Granted that there will probably be more moments of "Wait, something is wrong here" but I think that the sitcom thing is supposed to go through most if not all of the nine episode season.

Everyone fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Jan 17, 2021

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Yeah, he is playing Gorr the God Butcher and he is the villain of the movie. I'm saying that it's not clear who Matt Damon is playing, since it is an actual role and the villain is cast.

Asgardian Jason Bourne?

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Snowman_McK posted:

The especially weird part of this is that Cap is a pretty avid baseball fan in a few iterations. Why wouldn't he know who won the world series? That's the sort of knowledge that you can get just by osmosis.

On the one hand I kind of get/agree with the panel. Cap holds up an abstract ideal of America but has little to no concept of or connection to the actual human people that are Americans. And one reason we know that is that he helped trash a city where they live and work. such that some of them can't do those things any more (because they're dead or out of a job because their workplace got blown to hell.)

On the other hand, dear Jesus those were some mindless pap examples. I will say that I have logged on to Myspace (though probably not for the last five to seven years at least) because I could put a music playlist there and Facebook was (still is) a finicky Orwellian nightmare. I can't recall the last World Series winner right now. I never watched so much as a single episode of American Idol. NASCAR iseems like its either for idiots or sociopaths. It's guys driving in a circle for three hours. Either that somehow entertains you or you're hoping to see somebody crash. I have gone to You-Tube but mostly to embed video when commenting on a thread topic somewhere. While on there I do sometimes check out other videos, some of them silly.

Everyone fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Jan 22, 2021

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Mechafunkzilla posted:

Motorsports are interesting but you kind of need to understand that the driving is a relatively small part of it, they're really engineering competitions with a dash of strategy and execution thrown in.

I should have gotten that. I watch Forged in Fire without some interest in and a bit of knowledge about blacksmithing, that show is basically "people pounding on metal for an hour."

The Cameo posted:

Heís in Peter Jacksonís King Kong as Bruce Baxter, the actor who stops being a coward long enough to save the group from the insect pit.

He was also in Super 8 as the dad.

Now that I think about it I think Kyle Chandler just likes big kaiju and monster movies a lot.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that except that there needs to be more kaiju/monster movies with scripts that are less crap. Who else wants Kyle Chandler for Pacific Rim 3 now?

On a different topic, I probably should have watched WW84 prior to reading about it here. Now I'm kind of turned off on the idea. So when I say what follows, I'll own that I could easily be talking out of my rear end.

I don't want to categorize what happened with the guy whose body Steve was inhabiting as rape.

The reason for that is I don't want to put something that's only possible with bullshit magic superpowers on the same level as, say, Bill Cosby drugging women and then having sex with their unconscious bodies. I think that risks trivializing what happned to Cosby's victims. Or to any woman who got roofied and raped. Or, really, to anyone who's been a victim of rape.

If you just demand some kind of "in-universe" rationale for that, figure that the guy's spirit was not present while Steve occupied his body. So once again through bullshit magic superpowers, Diana and Steve borrowed the guy's... "meat car" for a while. That isn't good or ethical, exactly, but it's not something that needs to be defined as rape, either, I don't think.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Fuckin' love social media, where the most obnoxious, stupid members of every demographic become its herald! Yeeeeah baby let's kill each other over Tweets, Big Tech gotta get paid!

There's no reason to participate in modern social media in any way beyond "finding funny stuff" which is why I'm still on this forum, participating in a tried-and-true form of social media that isn't even 10% as toxic as that poo poo.

There's some interesting stuff on social media. Right now I'm engaging in a length direct message thread with somebody pretending to be actress Elizabeth Olsen who wants to con me out of money. Unless somehow actress Elizabeth Olsen is trying to con me out of money.

Does anybody know a way to determine approximately where somebody is Tweeting/Direct Messaging from? I'm curious to learn if my pitiful savings is supposed to fund ISIS, North Korean nukes or just some asshat's toy collection.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


The MSJ posted:

Pretend that you believe it's actually her and obsessively ask for nudes.

Nah, we're past that point. "Liz" claims to be working with an NGO charity affiliated with [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_Services_InternationalPopulation Services International[/url] as a global ambassador to help raise AIDS awareness. And Elizabeth Olsen has actually done a lot of hands on charity work in the past, so I could realistically see her doing something like this. Liz's fakeness becomes clear over time, but there is a bit of sophistication to the set-up.

I think I overplayerd my hand earlier, so the game might be over. Which is sad. I was really looking forward to slowly giving out hints that I was a closely watched family "asset" whose father used to do "odd jobs" for the government.

"Yeah, Dad was in Memphis in 1968. Something about a hunting trip. But like I said, we can't talk about this outside of here. I'm really liking WandaVision and it would hard for you to do the Dr. Strange film from a CIA black site."

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Gatts posted:

I dunno, I donít think illiteracy and proud ignorance is good

Oh, no, Teagone is absolutely correct. It owns. It's just that it self-owns.

Personally it makes want to strap the guy into a chair and make him watch it start to finish.

Maybe bring in a Jigsaw puppet right as the ape scenes to tell him,

"Those right there were the only action scenes in this movie."

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


McCloud posted:

It's perfectly in line with their delusions that WS was a spy thriller and that Black panther was inspired by the godfather or other such nonsense.

To be somewhat fair even with people in superhero costumes, Winter Solider managed to be less silly than the Pierce Brosnan Bond films.

Also Black Panther was the story of a son coming to terms with the darker aspects of his father's legacy, so if you squint and do other things likely to give severe eyestrain, I can see how one might consider The Godfather.

But yeah, otherwise those comparisons are overblown bullshit put forth by a bunch of overblown bullshitters.


I'd have loved them to have just borrowed Tom Ellis for Lucifer and made his stuff in Sandman a prequel to the Lucifer show - which is exactly how it played out in terms of the comics. That said, I'm not disappointed to see Gwendoline Christie getting a meatier role than loving Phasma.

Oh, and in other news, "Elizabeth Olsen's" attempted con of me continues and we're getting to the meat of things.
The last few exchanges follow:

quote:


Her: Well you could be the one in charge of my charity money my secretary

Me: Well, as somebody who did poorly in his only college Accounting course well over 30 years ago, I'd be kind of completely unqualified to do that.

Her: You can if you really do want this offer
Her: All you need is to keep money and send it out too the less privileged

Me: What would I actually need to do? I already have a full-time job, so I don't know that I'd have the time to give the work the attention that it would. And it'll be awhile before I reply to your next message because I have to leave for that job in about 10 minute. Early morning shifts doth suck.

Her: Yes this doesnt affect your job and would only contact you whenever I need you to send money too an organization and you get paid for your services

Me: That seems reasonable. And if it's something to people in need that I can do from, I'd be a horrible selfish poo poo to not at least try. How exactly would we start?

Her: I would need some of your personal information to be my lawyer so we go and agreement for your safety and mine

Me: I can see that. You do have a charity to protect, after all. What sort of personal information? I've been told by my younger co-workers that it can be risky to send that sort of thing over the internets.

Her: Yes I know that but you have too trust me because am not here too hurt you from your good will.

Me: Tell me what information you need. I'll to talk to some other people. I kind of have "managers" too.

The last two bits were from just now.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


MacheteZombie posted:

Lol this is a dedicated con attempt

And the fun continues to continue:

quote:

Her: You involving third party is going against my rules

Me: Understood but you really can't say "No" to these people.

Her: Yes I cant because helping them means the world to me
Her: Believe me on this john

Me: I can't get into specifics but their my dad's friends from work. Just tell me what info you need.

Her: Drivers license

Me: They won't let me send something that shows a physical address. At least not until they finish their tracing this Twitter account info and running their background check. "Wit-Sec" is really strict sometimes.

Her: Why informing third party
Her: This should be between us

Me: It's their job to check everything so they do. Besides, a Driver's License from me wouldn't help. Remember my job. I check dozens of Driver's Licenses a day (along with their credit card info). I mean, it's not like that pic on my Twitter profile is actually me. They're not going to let me put my real face up on Twitter.

Her: Send me your Text number

Me: I don't have a text number. Or at least I don't know what my text number issue. I don't actually own a cell phone. Too risky. There's a reason the Agency guys call them "tracking devices" that can make phone calls. I have an e-mail address. Will that work?

I do love that "she" hasn't quite grokked the idea that her hypothetical mark has U.S. Marshals looking after him.

Really this wouldn't be happening if so many of my online RPGs hadn't slowed to a pace that makes glaciers impatient. But I'm really loving bored, and this kind of passes for an RPG.

I do wish I could actually pass this stuff along to the real Elizabeth Olsen - or better yet to Mary-Kate and Ashley, since they'd be her "big sisters." However I don't know how to find whatever private continent Mary-Kate and Ashley bought with all that Olsen Twin movie money they made in the 90s.

Everyone fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Jan 29, 2021

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


And con over from my perspective. My last post:

quote:

And we're done. This was fun for a bit. I was going to spin out a whole story of how "John" was in Witness Protection because his dad used to kill people for the CIA, but I'm tired now. You're not Elizabeth Olsen. You're some kind of con artist. A legitimate charity would not need to go through this silly crap to get my bank account info. An actual Hollywood star would not be following 20 times the number of people who follow her. And speaking of lovely things and people, you are a lovely person doing a lovely thing. I am a stranger to Elzaibeth Olsen, but outside observation shows that she does a lot of real charity and cares a lot about real disadvantaged people. You have mimicked her identity to con people into giving you access to their information and bank account to steal money. That is a deeply lovely thing to do. I will report you to Twitter. And the FBI. I doubt either of them will do anything. I'll also report you to the Disney corporation. They have worldwide influence. And they absolutely loath anything that dilutes their brand. Which this does. If I could figure out how, I'd report you to Elizabeth Olsen herself, I would. And most likely I will. That bit about how terrifying it is to be the subject of a celebrity's attention? That was real. I hope you "enjoy" it.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


well why not posted:

We donít deserve a movie where McKellan rips apart every railroad track in a city to defend young mutants from sentinels. Or one where he uses the spire of a tall building as a javelin through a mega sentinel piloted by nazis.

Iím available for spec scripts but only on this topic.

Then you post those things right here, right now so we can all read them and weep in sorrow that they'll never see the screen.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Ghost Leviathan posted:

A pity, because they really could and should just remake this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s90ubJVR7-c

But make it R-rated like Logan with Cap and Logan just butchering the gently caress out of Nazis.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


SolidSnakesBandana posted:

Eventually that would result in the image of a flying submarine so I am all for that

Right there with you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkUAzcja74Y

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


FilthyImp posted:

Here's how I think it goes:
X-Men Origins - Xmen 1,2,3 - The Wolverine - DoFP

DoFP directly follows The Wolverine's end credits scene so that's one Continuity down. We can throw X-Men: Origins in there if we want, along with Xmen 1-3. The end of DoFP overwrites Jean dying in X2 and the Phoenix event in X3.

Wolverine travels back in DoFP and that creates an echo in the timestream that establishes the First Class continuity.

Then we have:
First Class - DoFP (70s Wolverine) - Apocalypse - Dark Phoenix - Deadpool - Logan

For the sake of not being a bummer, I'm going to assume that the Restored/Good Ending of DoFP proceeds and is unseen to us so it's possible that doesn't end in horrible genocide.

Nah. The Fox X-Universe (Deadpool aside) is depressing as balls. It definitely ends in horrible genocide. Then after the mutants are all gone, aliens roll up to Earth, take it over (since no super-people exist) and put the populace into camps for use as food/sex toys. The End.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


I think it'd be interesting to bring in Professor X but he's played by Jonny Lee Miller from Elementary.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


well why not posted:

Elementary seemed like a terrible idea as it was overshadowed by the BBC show that came out around the same time. The BBC version immediately started eating its own poo poo, while Elementary chugged along and ended up pretty watchable.

I never saw a bad episode of Elementary. I saw episodes that were better than other episodes, but I never saw an episode that made me say "Jesus, is this ever a dumpster fire." I saw several episode of Sherlock that made me say that. Over seven seasons Elementary had a total of 154 one hour(ish) episodes. Sherlock had 14 90 minute episode and one "movie." At least a third of them were drek.

Both series at various points did a version of "The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton." Sherlock turned "Magnussen" into something like a supervillain, having Lars Mikkelson pissing in a fireplace and lick people. We got to meet Sherlock's parents who were Cumberbatch's parents because... cute, I guess. The only cool bit was Yasmine Akram, who would have vastly improved the fourth season if she'd come back.

Elementary played things differently and closer to the original story. It made "Milverton" just an rear end in a top hat professional backmailer. Sherlock and Joan come into the case when Sherlock's AA sponser's sponser receives a demand for money with the consequences being that the blackmailer will put the video of his daughter getting date-raped onto the internet. No licking or pissing required to establish that Milverton is an evil gently caress. We don't meet Sherlock's parents until later in the series. Dad comes in during the fourth season and is played by John Noble. As for Mom... just watch the series. I don't want to spoil it even under spoiler markings.

Everyone fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Feb 9, 2021

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Chairman Capone posted:

I really loved the first two seasons of Sherlock when they aired but trying to watch them again a while back, I realized that only the first episode of each season were any good, and even the S2 opener has some bad bits. Particularly Moriarty, whose portrayal was grating even at the time and has only gotten worse.

I think in some ways the lack of availability of the actor who played Moriarty on Elementary was kind of a blessing. One of cooler moments was a character reading a letter in their own tone of voice and then it switches to Moriarty's voiceover and it's an awesome "Oh, poo poo!" moment.

Andrew Scott was pretty good the in the first series finale/second series opener, but after like, the fifth time he showed up I was "Jesus gently caress, not him again."

It's sort of like there was a custody battle over Sherlock Holmes between Elementary and Sherlock. Sherlock got London, 221B Baker Street, Scotland Yard, male Afghanistan war veteran Dr. John Watson, Mycroft who "is" the British government, etc. all the trappings of the Holmes canon. Elementary got the character's soul and that was worth more than all the rest of that crap put together.

One thing that helped me watch Sherlock was imagining it to be a loose prequel to Elementary. Sherlock is Holmes in Britain, riding high (and being high) showing off and living free of any bad consequences.

Elementary is what happens after he crashes back to Earth, with negative consequences ready and eager to punch him in the balls at the slightest provocation.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Oasx posted:

Moriarty is the best thing about Sherlock in my opinion, Andrew Scott is great in the role.

He was good. So he was brought back. Again and again and again and again. It got to the point where my favorite episode of Sherlock is "The Sign of Three" and that's partly because not only does Moriarty not appear, he isn't even indirectly mentioned. But mostly it's because of Yasmine Akram as Janine and the little kid who liked murder scenes.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


josh04 posted:

Sherlock depicting Magnusson as a Rupert Murdoch/Richard Desmond type and then having the protagonist just shoot them was pretty much the best thing the show ever did.

That was a cool shocking, twist. And the consequence of Sherlock being sent on a mission that would result in his death was a perfect season finale. Or it would have been if they hadn't done the "Whoops! Moriarty's back. Exile's over three minutes after it started, Sherlock. Welcome home, you adorable murdering scamp, you."

Jedit posted:

Sherlock did Mycroft completely wrong. They had the whole "he is the government" bit, but forgot that Mycroft is incorrigibly lazy and demands a vast price for his services so that he will only ever be called on in times of extreme need - which is why Sherlock despises him, as he sees this as a waste. Instead they had Mycroft as the secret power behind the throne and thus a better Sherlock, meaning Holmes now despises his brother just because he's better than him.

I loved the way they did Irene Adler as Sherlock's supposed equal by making her a dominatrix. "Oohhh sexy-naughty." On Elementary that character would have been one of Sherlock's "exercise partners." For a Tuesday. A slow Tuesday.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


well why not posted:

Pitching Benedict Cumberbatch as the more compassionate, soulful and bohemian brother was a hell of a swing. The guy is a billboard that reads ďprivate schoolĒ.

Well, compared to Mycroft "Yes, I regularly sign assassination orders during tea time" Holmes he kind of is. Compared pretty much anyone else, not so much.

In Douglas Adams's Hitchhiker books, Zaphod gets placed in a mental torture device. The device shows a person in comparison to the vast, infinite glory of the universe and that realization of their utter insignificance compared to it breaks the person's mind. Zaphod goes into the device and comes out fine, even somewhat more self-satisfied. We learn that when Zaphod went into the device he left his own universe (call it Universe A) and entered the device from Universe B. Universe B had been specifically created to allow Zaphod to do this Zaphod was the purpose for its existence that therefore Zaphod was by far the most important thing in it.

In Sherlock Sherlock Holmes is in his own Universe B.

In Elementary he's in Universe A.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


josh04 posted:

Right, but we criticise arrogance in actual people, not necessarily in fictional characters - Sherlock in Sherlock is indeed the most important character in Sherlock and much of the series is based around interacting with that - Mycroft isn't just an exaggerated, competent version of Sherlock, he's also literally one of the writers. Moriarty isn't just an intelligent villain, he may as well be the compelling protagonist from a show named Moriarty making a guest appearance.

I'm not saying you have to like or want this kind of meta nonsense, but it's very definitely what the show is doing. Hbomberguy makes the same mistake in his video and ends up asserting that the dull, racist one from the first season is the best episode.

Well, sure. Holmes is arrogant in Elementary as well. The difference is that Elementary treated its characters as though they were real people with real lives and real emotions that matter within the world. Sherlock... kind of didn't most of the time. The closest Sherlock really got to genuine consequences was with the character of Janine. There's a nice moment where Sherlock seems to understand that this was a cool person who could have been a good friend and he doesn't get to have her in his life any more because of the lovely way that he treated her.

Bringing this back to the MCU and WandaVision, Sherlock is like the WandaVision sitcom with the various characters acting as living props giving scripted responses to support whatever plot is occurring within the episode. Elementary generally allows its characters to react in some degree the way that real people would respond to situations instead of doing something "because that's what the script says."

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Violator posted:

I gotta say Iím super impressed by how in-depth you all know about these Sherlock shows. Any thoughts on the RDJ movies?

They felt like a bigger budget Sherlock. Not the most interesting Sherlock Holmes I've seen and not the most interesting RDJ performance (that probably goes to Kirk Lazarus from Tropic Thunder).

Speaking of different takes on Sherlock Holmes. Here's The Blue Carbuncle featuring Peter Cushing as Sherlock Holmes.

Everyone fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Feb 10, 2021

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


FilthyImp posted:

Her remember when the Buffy comic books were hailed as a continuation of the plot and Dawn was cursed to be a Giant/Centaur/whatever because she banged some rando and cheated on her demon boyfriend? And how she ends up with Xander...

Cool stuff, normal stuff

I dropped it before he decided that Buffy should be a lesbian. For reasons. Looking specifically at the women of Buffy, it's seems like the only one who really rose to greater heights was Alyson Hannigan. I have to wonder if part of that is because he didn't target her or he wasn't able to take some kind of poo poo on her career because of the American Pie movies.

One other thing to consider is that on IMDB Whedon is listed as the sole creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. For Angel he's listed as a co-creator with David Greenwalt. I wonder if that meant he couldn't pull as much of his poo poo on the Angel set.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Nucleic Acids posted:

He is nothing more than loving dog poo poo to be wiped off a shoe.

Yeah, but he seemed to have been a fairly selective piece of dog poo poo. Eliza Dushku came back for Angel and Dollhouse. Amy Acker came back for Dollhouse and Cabin in the Woods. I recall an Angel episode in the fifth season where we see "Buffy" as a blonde woman shot from behind or ar different angles to avoid showing her face because presumably Sarah Michelle Gellar did not come back for that epiosode. When her contract on Buffy was done she was away from Joss ASAP.

I kind of wish we could hear from them and especially from Alyson Hannigan to get a more complete picture of what all occurred.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Well, for argument's sake let's assume Eliza Dushku was one of the actresses he got with on Buffy. She gave him what he wanted, so he gave her what she wanted. Perhaps Amy Acker did too. I mean, it's not nice to think about but it does happen, and I can't blame someone for wanting to get ahead in their career (please note that I am NOT saying this is acceptable! just that these Hollywood sickos engineer these situations specifically to make it hard to say no and for the participants to feel bad about it after so they don't expose them!)

Well, Eliza Dushku is the latest to speak out so let's maybe not slut-shame her at this point.

Also, Jesus, dude, that's where you went? They put out? They, what, "gave head to get ahead?" I was thinking more that maybe Whedon had a "type" or something. But apparently his type was "female and working with him." Until proven otherwise I'm going to assume that one reason he was so hateful to the women around him is that when he tried that "casting couch" bullshit they all told him to get hosed with somebody other than them.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Mat Cauthon posted:

Seriously?

I think it's more likely that, given what we now know about Dushku's experiences on the set of True Lies, she was maybe more capable of 1) recognizing Whedon for the predator he is and 2) having a support system or team around her to minimize the chances of being made vulnerable to someone like Whedon.

It's also possible that Whedon didn't pull any poo poo with her just because predators understand the utility of treating a handful of women (or whichever gender they're targeting) with respect so that they have erstwhile defenders when the accusations finally come out.

Beyond that, one thing to consider that Alyson Hannigan and Eliza Dushka share is that both were in big movie productions. Eliza Dushku knew Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jaime Lee Curtis from True Lies (not that it helped her much at the time). Alyson Hannigan knew Dan Ackroyd and Kim Basinger.from My Stepmother is an Alien. These were people that could potentially end his career.

Whedon is a predator. Predators want prey. Those they see as weak or vulnerable. Two girls who could potentially call some of the biggest names in Hollywood at the time to destroy his life were probably not Whedon's idea of "prey."

As for Amy Acker and the women of Firefly, well, even if it doesn't make the trade journals, people talk. Word gets around. The fact that there was an actual loving rule that Joss Whedon was not allowed to be alone with the 15 year old girl probably got around - at least to the set of Angel. So he was probably "managed" very carefully there and on future projects.

And yeah. Joss Whedon is a good writer and a good director. So if Dushku and Acker could be reasonably sure that he wouldn't be allowed to abuse or molest them, I could see them wanted to continue working on his stuff because it potentially opens further career doors.

If Joss Whedon was as lovely a writer and director as he is a human being, this would all have been much easier for everybody - liek it was with Gina Carano. Mediocre, easily replaceable actress posts toxic crap on Twitter? Fire her. When there's a lot of actual talent mixed in with the toxicity, things get murkier in the board rooms.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Rabelais D posted:

Joss Whedon is absolutely not a good writer or director, in the same way Dan Brown is a pretty lovely writer. He's successful and his stuff is popular, but he's not actually good. He just knows how to pander to genre audiences.

And that makes what difference to studios, exactly?

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Karloff posted:

It's completely irrelevant whether he's a good or bad writer/director at all. Dude's a psycho. He could have composed the greatest work of art of all time. Doesn't matter.

Of course it does, however "great art" is defined. Roman Polanski "statutorily" raped and sodomized a 13 year old girl. He can't go to a nation with a US extradition treaty for fear of going back to a US prison for that. Do you seriously think he would have had so many people wanting to work with/for him if he had a reputation for making bad or even mediocre movies?

Gina Carano didn't get fired because of her toxic Tweets. She got fired having a huge liability in terms of her toxic Tweets while also having very little in the "asset" column to counter-balance them. James Gunn's apology for his previous Tweets was accepted and he was returned to working on Guardians of the Galaxy 3 mostly because of how well GotG 1 and 2 did in terms of box office number and buzz/popularity.

Now maybe you're talking about it not mattering in moral/ethical terms, but moral/ethical terms cut very little ice in the business of Hollywood - or, really, in most businesses when you get right down to it.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Karloff posted:

It's such a terrible excuse/argument. Anyone who watched Angel knows that Cordelia's disappearance from the show is one of the worst, most contrived things in it so Whedon sabotaged his own show just to punish her. People getting pregnant or getting sick is just a fact of life. A non psycho would have leant into the writing challenge and came up with a workaround. It's a fantasy show, you can do anything, have Cordelia turn into a loving cat for a season and have Carpenter do voice over until she's ready to return. It's easy.

Or, you know, Angel and Buffy were both dark fantasy/horror/comedy series. Just write the loving pregnancies (Amber Bensen ate poo poo from Joss for reproducing as well) into the shows as demon/monster/angel/magic pregnancies or something. Leave aside the crappy way the actresses were treated for a second, how creatively bankrupt are you as a writer that you wouldn't immediately think of doing thar, given the shows' natures?

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


KVeezy3 posted:

That's just it - it wasn't a lack of creativity or a purely self-destructive act for Whedon because all signs point to him being an actual sadist. His abhorrent treatment of Carpenter's pregnancy certainly reflects his contempt for women and their unique circumstances that 'get' in his way, but It's not all female employees that he has abused.

One thing that people need to consider about Sarah Michelle Geller backing up her co-stars is that she came out of the soap opera, "All My Children." From 1993 to 1995 Sarah Michelle Gellar played Kendall Hart, Susan Lucci's character's bitchy, bitter daughter-by-rape. Soap opera production schedules are loving insane. Five shows a week. Every week. No reruns. No "haitus." Gellar played a 23 year old woman (with all the sex/adult situations that would entail) in one at the real life age of 16. So, this is a lady who knows and has endured some pretty amazing pressure.

Joss Whedon was worse than that.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


Grendels Dad posted:

I mean, I love the cast of most of his shows, but he's been kind of exposed as a sex pest. At the very least he cheated on his wife with supporting actresses, and then there is the ominous "Michelle Trachtenberg shouldn't be left alone with him" thing.

I don't think he's been exposed as a sex pest. We've gotten hints but not even Trachtenberg has called him on it.

That said, not every kind of abuse is sexual in nature, but non-sexual abuse is still abuse.

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Everyone
Sep 6, 2019


YOLOsubmarine posted:

Dude is loving gross about women and sex and using his newfound power to gently caress his employees is definitely abusive.

Agreed.

I guess my thing is that if the story comes out that Whedon trapped Trachtenberg in a room and screamed at her for three straight hours because she messed up a line but he did not suggest sex or grab her breasts or something, that doesn't make what happened okay. Abuse is still abuse. Harassment is still harassment.

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