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Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Luke Cage's whole thing is that he's bulletproof, and the S1 plot revolved around these special bullets that he's not proof against.

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Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Shageletic posted:

There's a weird Obama non-rapy Cosby tone with that poo poo, castigating black young people for listening to hip hop or whatever. Pretty corny.
I still have no idea what Luke's father was trying to give him poo poo about.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Flag-Smasher is a head-scratcher since Gruenwald was generally pretty savvy and tended to make Captain America's nemeses radical right-wingers and corporate warmongers.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




FilthyImp posted:

There's nothing inherently wrong about black weebs or Japanese cholos or whatever.

But it is honestly exasperating dealing with people that don't understand why this is a point of contention. I don't even get how being a troll about this would be enjoyable given the messy racial politics involved. It's just legitimately soul-draining.
It's draining to deal with people who just problematize something without actually alleging wrongdoing, demanding anything specific, offering solutions, or even articulating why it's problematic.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Mat Cauthon posted:

Minority communities, Black and Asian alike, called this poo poo out from almost day one asking for accountability so that they could more enthusiastically support her.
That's absurd.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Mat Cauthon posted:

It's absurd to have standards for popular celebrities?
It's an absurd standard. So this woman has enthusiastic black fans, who want to continue enthusiastically supporting her singing with a blaccent. But in order for their fandom (and more importantly, her profit) to be ethical, she needs to issue a public statement of contrition/indebtedness to black culture.

That's the standard of accountability? Like, who's grading this? What if some people aren't convinced? I'm white, and I think imitating an AAVE accent to make money (among other reasons) is racist. I would still think this if a thousand black people told me it wasn't.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




I think Yen was onboard as a choreographer and was written in very late.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




I'm a Flash mark, I'm going to watch the Flash movie that will be bad.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Mordiceius posted:

I donít want to yuck anyoneís yum and maybe I am broken human being, but I just donít get reactions like this -

Can someone explain this to me?
The United States is not a democracy and everyone is aware of it on a more or less conscious level. The people have no power. So some people get as invested in a fantasy world as they would have been in, for example, the Civil Rights Act.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Norrington's Blade is a one-man SR Combat Organization. Of course Marvel wants you to forget him.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

It's kind of weird that the major plot point of the movie is that Killmonger was trained by the CIA, explicitly wants to mimic their actions, and cloaks his anger and desire for domination in the language redressing centuries of systematic oppression in order to deceive people and then so many people in the real world are actually tricked by the fictional character.
I agree, the black man made some good points and has legitimate grievances, but he's too angry and went too far.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Timeless Appeal posted:

Alternatively, enslaved people literally told folktales of their African ancestors having Superpowers.
Cool, could you name one?

This is a weird thing that I find keeps coming up in defenses of this movie's politics--appeals to African traditions that are never specified. I'm not saying that they don't exist. Like, Africans have myths about supernatural powers? Okay, so they're not an exception to every single culture I've ever heard of. (Which Africans, by the way? Africa is a pretty big place.)

For a movie that makes a show of anti-colonialism, there's a conspicuous lack of even a shred of actually existing African anti-colonialism. Between the time when Africans created unspecified hero myths and the release of Marvel Studios' Black Panther, a lot of stuff happened in Africa besides imperialism. For example, anti-imperialism and revolution.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Mechafunkzilla posted:

In a weird way, anti-racism can't actually be represented in a Disney film, because racism it actually exists -- embedded in structures and dissociated cultural/historical trauma -- has been extracted from the worlds being portrayed.
Also, the cooperation of the American MIC is worth a lot of money.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Everyone posted:

Because this particular character is a bad-faith actor who is clearly using revolutionary rhetoric without giving any real shits about the oppressed people he theoretically champions. Note that in almost every scene in the "Spirit World" Erik Stevens appears as the little boy instead of as a man. That's showing that in his heart he's still the angry little boy whose father was murdered.
Like Everyone who wants to dismiss black people as dumb and so goddamn crazy, you're psychoanalyzing Erik Stephens and attributing bad attitudes to him, instead of just considering his actions and any possible rational motivations for those actions. Yes, he's angry. Who gives a poo poo? Toussaint Louverture was angry.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Timeless Appeal posted:

I did. The People Could Fly which I cited in my original post.

Edit: To be clear that title is from the retold version from Virginia Hamilton who preserved and retold a lot of African-American and enslaved narratives.
Okay, so The People Could Fly is an African-American myth about escaping slavery. Black Panther is similar to this, because it's also a myth, also created by people of African descent. (In the fictional universe of the film, anyway. It was actually created by two white Jewish immigrants.) But how is this more relevant to a movie about a coup in Africa, than anything that actually happened in Africa since the end of the Atlantic slave trade?

Everyone posted:

Erik Stevens's "revolution" doesn't end with Wakanda conquering the world and a rousing cry of "Black People (literally) Rule!" It ends with Wakanda conquered and colonized, overwhelmed by sheer numbers. It ends with Wakadans lost and displaced like he was lost and displaced when they murdered his father.
Looking back, we know the future of Black Panther. If Killmonger had been successful, whoever won the resulting wars would have been conquered by Thanos. (The MCU acknowledges that ecofascists have some good points and the resulting genocide would be good for the environment.)

The truth, then, is that black people need to get over imperialism and unite with the US military to defeat Intergalactic Jewry.

Lord_Magmar posted:

He explicitly, in the text, does not actually care about the future of Wakanda, it's people, or the world at large, that's why he destroys the Heart Shaped Herb, he intends to be the only person with the power of the Black Panther, and possibly for there not to be a king after him (because Wakanda will be destroyed, not because he's abolishing the monarchy).

Lord_Magmar posted:

Black Panther does have the revolutionary who is earnest in their beliefs, itís Nakia, and her revolution does in fact occur at the end. Whether you think itís enough or not is a separate discussion, but the end result of the movie is Tíchalla and Wakanda performing a global revolution (hopefully) with zero bloodshed.
Killmonger doesn't care about black people because he destroyed the royal family's super-drugs?

Lowering the labour costs for companies that hire STEM graduates is not a black liberation movement.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Lord_Magmar posted:

I'm pretty sure it's if someone is trying to kill you you're allowed to use equal rights. I don't think Tony would give a poo poo if Ivan had made a successful armour/arc reactor and used it to make money, or maybe he would, that's not what Ivan does. Ivan attempts to murder Tony Stark the second they meet.

Lord_Magmar posted:

Whiplash wants to hurt Tony Stark because Tony Stark's father hurt his father, he's never shown any interest in anything leftist he just wants to be the one with the money and fame.
Stark interviews Vanko after the assassination attempt. He's baffled that Vanko didn't just sell his weapons for money, like he does. Vanko explains that the purpose of the assassination attempt was to foster resistance to the America military industrial complex.

Lord_Magmar posted:

You don't get to use cinematic analysis to twist around what the movie portrays directly.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 14:38 on May 5, 2021

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Vanko does frame this in terms of holding Stark, specifically, accountable for his crimes. Then he ends the interview by telling Tony that he knows he's dying painfully--meaning simple revenge is not his goal.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Tony is the MIC, doofus. Raytheon refusing to share trade secrets with Boeing isn't a blow against the MIC.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Lord_Magmar posted:

I guess, I feel like Tony categorically shutting down all weapon's development (except his personal suits) and choosing to focus entirely on what I want to say is clean energy production (it never really comes up what Stark Tech actually sells, except the BARF thing which seems to be for helping with therapy) kind of makes him no longer part of the MIC or even the MIC itself, especially when he's actively denying the Army and other weapon's development companies access to his personal suit technology.
If Tony wasn't still part of the MIC, the Department of State wouldn't be constantly feting him and sending their liaison to pal around with him.

Tony shut down his munitions division to focus on building Iron Men. He is doing this because he wants to be in total control of how they're used. By Avengers 2, he has a small army of Iron Man drones, and his express goal is to metaphorically encase the world in an Iron Man. By Captain America 3 he's setting himself up to legitimize his corporate-funded, extremely illegal paramilitary activities through the UN and become the commander of a global drone police force.

quote:

Oh also doesn't Ivan basically use Hammer (who is definitely wanting to produce Iron Man suits for the American Military and his own immense profit) and his factories to make drone soldiers that he sells to Hammer as being superior operators than humans that can be sold to the military but intends to have them mass bomb the Stark expo out of a desire to hurt Strark's legacy, even though at that point he would believe that Tony is dead in a ditch?
Hammer breaks Vanko out of prison so that Vanko can build weapons for him. Vanko goes along with this because he's a destitute escaped convict and needs access to tools and materials. He transparently does not give a poo poo about Hammer and is not going to deliver on a marketable product.

At this point, you should really just rewatch the movie, if you care about this at all. Also,

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

You keep depoliticizing conflicts with this "Billy got mad at Jimmy" stuff. What's up with that?

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Lord_Magmar posted:

This is also reasonable, the peace-keepers in Avengers 2 don't actually have combat capabilities beyond being robots though right, I only remember them flying (admittedly dangerous) and standing there as a mobile barricade, this doesn't make them not dangerous or not weapons but their intent is to act like traffic cones realistically.
I give up.

Lord_Magmar posted:

i'm here for furthering my understanding and knowledge whilst sharing what I remember (or as the case may be, misremember)).
Then we have both failed.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

The American government agency that I find gets the weirdest treatment in the MCU is the FBI.
The FBI doesn't have expensive military hardware that can make your movie cheaper, nor a direct line on the world's best smack and coke. No reason to include them, really.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




The Wakanda-Aligned Movement vs. Stark Industries Presents The Avengers could have been a much better movie than Infinity War.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




POWELL CURES KIDS posted:

Blockbusters this big typically pretend Africa doesn't exist, or treat it as some kind of blank, violent, ~mysteriously ahistorical~ backdrop. marvel's black panther makes it both setting and subject, and uses this to argue...what?
BP treats the rest of Africa--that is, the Africa that actually exists--as a blank, violent, ahistorical backdrop for Wakanda.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Timeless Appeal posted:

1) That's an oversimplification of The People Could Fly. Like I implied, the story is also about being robbed of culture and greatness. Flying means a lot of things.

2) Regardless of the comic book creators, we're discussing the Black Panther film with a Black director, writer, cast, and other crew members.

3) I don't disagree with MIC or CIA critiques iof BP although I think people become hyperbolic on Ross's actual role and arc. I was just arguing that there are reasons for why the movie appealed to people beyond people being thirsty for that CIA propaganda or whatever. You can view. a movie through more than one lens.
Oh sure, I understand that representation isn't nothing. I'm saying that this movie ultimately doesn't have better politics than, like, Rambo 3. So the culture war around it, like all kulturkampf, is very dumb and bad.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Spacebump posted:

We don’t know how awful MCU CIA is. Presumably Shield did some of their bad work instead, though I’ll give you maybe they didn’t and their CIA has just as much blood on its hands. However, if we aren’t filling in the gaps left by the film with our own imagination. Killmonger is shown to be a horrible person, worse than Freeman’s character. Freeman’s character doesn’t give the CIA everything in the briefing at the end. Freeman’s character helps stop Killmonger from starting a global race war. Saying he is equally bad or not as bad as Freeman’s character is ridiculous. One is a serial killer trying to cause untold amounts of more death, the other is helping the heroes of the film stop that.

In the MCU, US intelligence was all being run by an undead Nazi. So the CIA is exactly the same as in real life.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




We've gone an absurdly long time without anyone mentioning The Spook Who Sat By The Door.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




After Winter Soldier, Steve Rogers decides that he doesn't trust The Government and becomes an anarcho libertarian. Tony's goal in Civil War is to give his private army a fig leaf of oversight, and Steve rejects it on principle.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Neurolimal posted:

You'd think TV would be the place they'd allow some autonomy. Netflix aimed for a different tone from Disney, had their own flops, Agents of Shield did *waves hands* and the Marvel machine still printed money, what's the harm?
Why would you ever make a million dollars when, with a little more Management, you could make $1.1 million? You're only thinking about the money they're making; corporate executives think about the theoretically infinite amount of money that they could be making.

Asset management completely takes over the artistic process in order to make as much money as possible. Even the brand obsession is just instrumental; rewriting history is the same as discarding old machinery to them. The goal is to make the artistic process into an industrial manufacturing process that can be predictably controlled and endlessly fine-tuned to make even more money.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

300: Rise of an Empire was about a completely different city and the number 300 was not relevant at all.
300: Episode 3 would have taken place in a different country and 110 years after the original 300 had died.
I'm still wondering if Rome was planning on keeping Kevin McKidd and Ray Stevenson for the planned 5th season that would have been about Christ, when the two main characters would be at least 90.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:32 on May 18, 2021

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Neurolimal posted:

The Boys comic still has a lot of corporate malfeasance and Voight American attempting to take over the US Military, but it also spends a lot of its time on its 9/11 analogy, due to the time it was written. If you can tolerate Garth Ennis' juvenile humor and spurts of liberal patriotism, I'd recommend it.
All the Bush-era commentary has survived very well, because nothing has actually changed.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Hughie spends most of the last half of the comic doing absolutely nothing and stewing about being the team's comic relief. The show is better for having corrected that right off the bat.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




The MSJ posted:

the mutants are still on their multi book saga that people keep buying.
I stopped reading X-Men some time in the late 90s; what else is new?

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Are there still two versions of the original X-Men in the same universe, because fans liked having both the current continuity grown-up X-Men and the movie-reflecting teenage X-Men in the same setting?

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




It's definitely racist. I mean, I'm pretty sure some of the earliest examples openly questioned how primitives could have built pyramids and so on. And a lot of them quickly spiral into lurid race science fantasies.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




I don't recall anything in WotW about the Martians having visited earth in ancient times.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Leon forgot the solemn, minimalist female vocal cover of "I'm A Little Teapot" or whatever

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Roth posted:

You can tell Ethan Van Sciver is not a racist because he drew POC for Geoff Johns

Mike "Hapajap" Miller is the gold standard here.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Blood Boils posted:

Like who would like a soundtrack entirely of hit songs?!?
Not just hits...but my dad's favourite hits! Very brave.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




I enjoy the unintentional commentary where, in contrast to the comics, the military-industrial complex has Peter from cradle to grave. He goes to a STEM magnet school, gets his powers from a shady mismanaged corporate project, and six months later Tony recruits him into the super-mafia under the guise of a STEM internship program for disadvantaged youths. Stark Industries Presents Iron Man's Sidekick, Spider-Boy! He acts as an enforcer for Tony a few times before crumbling to dust.

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Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Timeless Appeal posted:

I really did like Bendis's take on Spider-Man that everyone realizes he's like the biggest hero in their world besides him because he's so anxious and riddled with guilt.
J. Jonah James has been furiously tweeting about the Spider-Menace all day, every day for two years, and every reply is just "What's that poo poo on your lip"

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