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KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Schwarzwald posted:

This brand identification is just the '00s console wars writ large.

Hold on - are we really going to pretend like the PS2's run wasn't the greatest of all time? :\

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KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk
I'm curious, as someone who hasn't read much comics outside of a couple Alan Moore works, how different are the various comic book Captain Americas from the MCU interpretation?

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

ImpAtom posted:

There's no clear answer because Captain America has varied massively over the years. He's been everything from a jingoist flag-bearer to an objector to the government to a far-right rear end in a top hat and everything in between. Generally the one defining trait he has is "unwavering in his convictions."

I see. What about in the last decade or two?

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk
Thanks for the info everyone.

ImpAtom posted:

...
Civil War, where he objected to the Superhero Registration Act and lead a rebellion against it. It ended up with him being beaten up by police and firefighters and then being assassinated on the steps of a courthouse after a lovely reporter yelled at him for not having a MySpace.

:hmmyes:

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Piell posted:

According to this criteria apparently I was never an American.

Amazing - they even depicted our hero acknowledging that he 'got owned'.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

The Cameo posted:

Lol he deleted the tweet, and thought this was going to somehow cover his rear end:
...
Unsurprised that Collider is still as poo poo as it was the last time I looked at it, like almost a decade ago

Being a scum bag and a coward, and then trying to reconcile those two aspects is not a good combination.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk
Let us allow the recent revelations to re-contextualize that apology he wrote to his ex-wife.

quote:

"I was surrounded by beautiful, needy, aggressive young women. It felt like I had a disease, like something from a Greek myth. Suddenly I am a powerful producer and the world is laid out at my feet and I can’t touch it.”

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Macdeo Lurjtux posted:

He wrote an episode of Firefly where the valiant main character was seduced by a seemingly innocent virginal character only to reveal she was secretly a siren doing it to further her own nefarious ends.

Ugh.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Everyone posted:

Or, you know, Angel and Buffy were both dark fantasy/horror/comedy series. Just write the loving pregnancies (Amber Bensen ate poo poo from Joss for reproducing as well) into the shows as demon/monster/angel/magic pregnancies or something. Leave aside the crappy way the actresses were treated for a second, how creatively bankrupt are you as a writer that you wouldn't immediately think of doing thar, given the shows' natures?

That's just it - it wasn't a lack of creativity or a purely self-destructive act for Whedon because all signs point to him being an actual sadist. His abhorrent treatment of Carpenter's pregnancy certainly reflects his contempt for women and their unique circumstances that 'get' in his way, but It's not all female employees that he has abused.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Feb 14, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk
Black Panther glossed over it in lieu of spotlighting neo-liberal interventionism, but how do y'all think post-coup T'Challa dealt with his radicalized leftist subjects, both within and without Wakanda?

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk
Hard to argue any of that. But I also wanted to say, shoutout to Mat Cauthon and all of their recent writing here with regards to Black Panther - really on point.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk
It's in the same way that the abolitionist John Brown and his crew were leftists.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

What's really notable is that this is basically the same as what happens in Dark Knight 3: The Dark Knight Rises. Aristocratic Wayne defeats the revolutionary Bane and opens an orphanage, etc. But, in that film, we have a much better sense of the gulf between Bane as superheroic revolutionary figure and his alter-ego: the weak, anonymous human with stupid pathological motivations.

Black Panther may be a dumb film, but the comparison points to the redemptive interpretation: that the 'human' Killmonger (with his family issues and whatnot) is the fake, and that he heroically overcomes this aspect of himself through his ultimate decision to die.

In this way, Killmonger successfully rejects the entire fuckin' Marvel Cinematic/Ideological Universe: "I would rather die than become an Avenger".

I’ve been letting this rattle in my head for a minute, and I think I understand but I’m not well read in psychoanalysis. Is the “Weak, anonymous human with stupid pathological motivations”, what mostly constituted ethical thought prior to Kant breaking it open by placing categorical imperatives beyond the phenomenal (And partially closed back up since categorical imperatives are products of language)?

I’m having trouble bridging this gap, because the film seems so utterly committed to a technocratic and ‘apolitical’ Third-Way-ism, which is embodied in T’Challa’s love interest Nakia. T’Challa goes through this journey conflicted by the protectionism of his predecessors and the traumatic figure of Killmonger, and ultimately settles on what Nakia has been pushing for all along - with her leading the vanguard of STEM schools for poor black U.S citizens.

Could the MCU simply be unable to integrate the truth of Killmonger’s plight into its symbolic order without bringing down the entire universe? I admit I may be taking shortcuts and thinking too small here though.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Mar 6, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

SuperMechagodzilla posted:


The ability to problematize a film is what makes such pure ideology impossible, and no film irredeemable. No matter how dedicated Marvel is to keeping the commoners offscreen, the films remain haunted by them - if only through their conspicuous absence.

So, like, we have Zizek’s redemptive interpretation of the film - where we have the foreclosed possibility that, in sitting down and actually listening to Killmonger, T’Challa will be radicalized.

Thank you for elaborating. I think my objection, that you had read Black Panther 'too far' against the grain, was my own psychological hang-up to giving the film a way out. But the subject/art-object relation has no exit from mediation.

The manner in which the film tackles topics usually avoided in the MCU might make it the most interesting. One way being how it tackles black sexuality within and without the context of the largely asexual universe. Black Panther depicts the relationships of two powerful black men: Killmonger’s ill-fated one that is anti-social, ‘too’ obscene, and ultimately transactional and contrasts that with T’Challa’s innocent pre-sexual intimacy with Nakia that implies a smooth continuation of his royal lineage. Further, It's T'Challa's righteous love for Nakia that opens up Wakanda to the first American government agent. Sexual difference is drawn with the angry young Wankandian men lustful for war with the reasonable and sensible women from various social positions who restore order to the world.

Everyone posted:

Were the vehicles he was shooting down actually occupied by humans? I though they were basically robot planes.

No, those were Wakandian-piloted aircrafts mostly shot down by a CIA-piloted drone. T’Challa triumphantly emerges from the wreckage of the first one to soaring orchestral music.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Mar 8, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Grendels Dad posted:

Can't find a good clip oof it now, but I'm pretty sure Erik orders the pilots to go through with the plan and you can see them manning the ships before the final battle begins. Only the royal fighter jet is explicitly said to be a drone when the CIA agent takes control of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YKeuNcHY9c

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Pitwar posted:

There's this really weird thing going on with the Snyder Cut, where if someone mentions something about it they didn't like they are instantly shot down and told they are wrong.

I loved the movie, absolutely loved it. At the same time, I can laugh at the Wonder Woman musical cue being overused, or a dramatic sequence of the team walking up some stairs.

It's ok for people to love it, but it's ok for people to find fault in it and bring that up. Let people have their opinions and discuss those in a normal manner, rather than jumping on to someone who just has a different take.

That long post about why you can't say you found the movie bad is just embarrassing. Why look for a fight about a different of opinion regarding a Justice League movie?

That isn’t what’s going on here - nobody has said that you're not allowed to dislike a 4:3 aspect ratio, the repeating usage of Wonder Woman's musical cue, excessive slo-mo usage or whatever. When people list reasons why these inclusions work, they're pushing against the notion by posters like Piell that they’re entirely iredeemable, a disgrace to film-making or whatever.

Piell posted:

Snydercut is definitely a better movie than Whedon but it's like a 7/10

Try defending the lamentations, I loving dare you

We’re now in the phase of the conversation where it’s those people who do think any of these aspects are defensible and are willing to write about it are deemed Snyder stans who won’t allow ‘different opinions’ and refuse to acknowledge any defect in his films.

Try defending the leitmotif usage In In the Mood for Love, I loving dare you

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

MacheteZombie posted:

...
For me, the only musical cue I'd change is the one over the Flash rescue. I probably would have kept it silent except for the slowed down sounds of like Barry's feet tearing up asphalt, metal crunching/grinding, and other sound effects. A minor nitpick though. Snyder loves music cues.

I would be really sad, because pretty much everything about that sequence really works for me. From seeing teasers of it over the years, I was quite surprised how well the music ultimately shaped the mood. Like Flash and Iris are doing the whole "Love at first sight, and then lost", thing and Flash's divine intervention changes the course of events. While he saves her, he admires her beauty from a subjectively safe distance, and then when reality catches up, Iris just looks at this lonely outsider with full acceptance, which scares the hell out of him.

So no, you're objectively wrong and we're now officially at total war with each other.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Mar 22, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Everyone posted:

Need? No. Want? Sure. Plenty of people are fine with being bigoted fucks, but they don't want to think of themselves (or have others think of them) as being bigoted fucks. Hypocrisy is still very much a thing.

That you've cited a scene from a film depicting a powerful black man laughing at other people being "hosed", in service of the 'White Cis Male Privilege' narrative is telling.

The problem is that the difference between zeroing-in on the situation 'created' by Smollett, and making fun of Crenshaw's disabilty is ideology. There will always be acts done by black/gay people that are problematic, as they are obviously people, and consist of more than these particular labels. Yes, their acts would produce readily available excuses for abusers to double down on what they're already doing, but if there weren't 'bad actors' at play in reality, abusers would simply conjure them up in their imagination. At the same time, the hyper-focus on Smollett's actions posits that there should be a world where black/gay people don't commit any problematic actions in a problematic world, and that this would, somehow, substantially improve their lot.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Apr 2, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

bushisms.txt posted:

No, i assume they're a chat bot. But what they're espousing has a direct line to White supremacy.

I'm not sure I follow.

The 'Model minority' sledgehammer is certainly real, but bringing up how other groups have similar struggles isn't meant to create a competition, nor exasperation at the futility of it all, but to produce a point of solidarity against white supremacy (Which we can't win without white people).

What does success look like once the demand is achieved where only authentic people are able to exploit black culture for profit?

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Apr 21, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

bushisms.txt posted:

Wait so you're suggesting black people are exploiting their own culture?

I'm curious what your thoughts are on the Black Panther film.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Lord_Magmar posted:

Actually no you’re right I was being overly generous, it’s still an attempt at global equality and life improvement which could lead to cultural or industrial style revolutions, but from the perspective of actual revolution against existing power structures it’s mostly shaking up with the new super power. It is however worth noting Nakia and Killmonger are intended to be saying similar things, Nakia wants outreach and improvement to help those who have been oppressed, Killmonger wants to arm and provide military support to them.

We're continuously told over and over that we all want the same things (Abstract notions of truth, justice, equality), so we need to unify by looking deep into peoples' hearts to find their true goodness. But this really just distracts us from analyzing the truth of their actions, i.e. the straightforward liberal interventionism embodied by Nakia (Exposition says she's leadership of the coding camps established at the end of the film).

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 14:48 on May 5, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Lord_Magmar posted:

I also admitted that I mis-spoke on that second bit, it's not a liberation movement, it's an outreach and life improvement initiative, which admittedly your actual valuation of it is up to yourself. My belief is that it's a strong step towards undoing inequality, and not a step towards global war (which I'd rather like to avoid regardless of the reason, which is not to say that violent revolution is never the answer).

It's not 'all subjective' - liberal interventionism has been a grand & ongoing global experiment for decades and I would characterize it as a big failure.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk
Kilmonger is also basically pretty much Trump; also that annoying co-worker I hate.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Lord_Magmar posted:

Also, I think that being upset Tony Stark in the only one use of the infinity gems he had chose to destroy Thanos and nothing else isn’t some we must always return to the Status Quo when he did not expect to have the gems ever in the first place and had an immediate threat needing an immediate solution. Especially when to me every movie and show since has been about the status quo having changed, the world has changed. But my readings are obviously my own and I’m not gonna sit here and tell you yours are wrong, that was never my intent. I just never saw the movies as ignoring the advancements (especially when we repeatedly see signs of advanced medical technology at the very minimum) so much as uninterested in going into deep detail about how Tony Stark gave every city an Arc Reactor.

Certainly, there's zero interest in the 20+ films to show Stark deviating at all from his position as a billionaire tech-capitalist shifting to the privatization of violence. But there's time for extended scenes where War Machine jokes about how he used Stark's tech to totally own some foreign general on behalf of the U.S. and the punchline is that the Avengers are like 'whatever', and Stark gloriously bestowing elite university students with unlimited resources to save the world.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Everyone posted:

Nah, I think more skilled, less cowardly Donald Trump fits him best. And in a way, that's not a disparagement. Donald Trump got more votes than any other presidential candidate in the history of the USA in 2020 - except Joe Biden. Trump was full of BS but he had a whole lot of people willing to buy that BS.

This is insanity. Tell us more about how 'black power' is not that different from 'white power'.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Snowman_McK posted:

I see the point they're making, but I think it just highlights the problems of depicting Wakanda as they did.

In order to make the analogy, the premise is that the people in Wakanda, and the Wakandaians around the world who sided with Kilmonger's plan to liberate the oppressed beyond nation states are a bunch of dumb & racist rubes.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Snowman_McK posted:

I think the analogy more rests on a superpower getting a weird crazy leader, disrupting its chain of more sensible leaders, but a) the two most prominent examples are both intimately linked with white supremacy and b) it's not like the sensible leaders weren't upholding horrible systems anyway. It shows why using an reclusive African superpower to make a clumsy point about imperialism is a very bad idea, since every recent empire has built and maintained its power on the bones of colonised brown and black people. Wakanda, for all its moral ambivalence, didn't. It became a superpower simply through innovation and magic. When I reviewed it at release, one of my biggest problems was that trying to make any point about the real world with a fantastical empire with essentially no historical precedent on any level is pure folly.

Sure, but Trump is hardly the exemplar of the insincere use of populist tactics to gain power - Plato wrote about that stuff. Embedded in this argument is that we must accept that Kilmonger doesn't actually care about the plight of black & oppressed people, because he's too violent overall and is disrespectful of the traditions of the Wakandian royal family?

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Spacebump posted:

I only said it was possible but also said they could be as bad. It isn't too ridiculous of a thought when you consider the MCU at some point diverges to having different Presidents and SHIELD seemed to be above them in importance (though not to the public, as shown in Ironman). What I am saying is it is possible bad things the CIA did IRL were potentially done by SHIELD in the MCU. SHIELD likely caused worse issues since they were run by Hydra Nazis. However, nothing confirms this and the MCU CIA could even be worse for all we know.

You're approaching the MCU like it's a literal parallel universe as opposed to a fictional bunch of work to be interpreted. Imagine if the MCU had an origin story of the CIA without its horrid history, but genuinely fighting for 'truth and justice'. Then we would have that in conjunction with a story where the real global threat is a black guy being too mad about systemic oppression.

Like no, this would make the MCU even more obscene, not less.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 13:06 on May 7, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Timeless Appeal posted:

Yeah, I always find when people straight up go for T'Challa is collaborating with the CIA they're spiking the ball a bit on the CIA critique. The movie is communicating to us that Killmonger isn't the Joker just letting the world burn. He's someone who became scary by going through legal US institutions. If you're a scared little kid who wants to be able to shoot and bully people, the US will let you if you put in the effort. Like I said, he's a cop.

I understand that you're referring to Killmonger's cold-blooded use of force, but I think the characterization of him as a cop doesn't clarify but obscures, because essential to the constitution of police is their badge as symbolic authority imbued by the state. It's terrifying to mess with a cop because the full force of hegemony will come down on you, regardless of that individual cop's beliefs. Killmonger is terrifying because of his absolute ideological commitment as an individual, which strengthens his ability to draw people around the world to his cause; if the second part of this description wasn't true, then he wouldn't be a supervillain.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk
You're confusing cop with standard militarism.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Timeless Appeal posted:

That seems like a pedantic argument though and not speaking to the issue of ideology. I'm not saying that Killmonger is literally a police officer, but Kaluuya I'd argue is at least a parallel for one. Wakanda has a distinct system of military protections, while the tribe's role seems to be protecting Wakanda although it's from what we understand it is a utopia that doesn't need policing. I get the impression from the end exchange with the cousin that prisons don't exist. The allusions to police in the film are meant as short hand for authoritarianism.

But like I said, that seems more like a pedantic argument. The bigger issue is separate grievance from ideology. Killmonger isn't really shown making class based appeals to a proletariat. He makes appeals based off of security. I don't think he's talking in bad faith. I think he really does want to kill white Supremacists which hey, but the movie is presenting him as dangerous not because of those grievances but because he only sees the world through authoritarian systems. It's why the film never makes the stakes actually about white people getting killed, but about Wakanda itself.

I do not think it's pedantic to question why you've chosen to characterize Killmonger specifically as a cop, because framing the non-police as such has specific historical/cultural implications. Cops have a relatively brief existence in history with a very particular formation relative to the state/populous, and drawing some nebulous lines directly to it because an entity promotes an abstract notion of authority and security isn't substantial enough.

Like the actual Black Panthers took authority and security by force to protect their neighborhoods, and it would be preposterous and insulting to characterize them as 'cops' or call that 'cop behavior'.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 18:57 on May 7, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Everyone posted:

Speaking as a white dude, I absolutely agree that BP was vital for black representation. Disney saw the value of a movie with a mostly black cast, black director and black writers in actual dollar amounts - which is the only way they can see value. As far as social justice goes, I didn't really see a lot of that. The story of Wakanda for most of its history seems to be "We got ours, gently caress everyone else." I mean, a big-rear end magic rock lands where they end up living. They exploit the magic rock to raise their tech and standard of living. They also hide and let all the other black people take it in the neck in the meantime.

Call T'challa building STEM centers and doing outreach liberal if you want, but it seems a step up from the conservative-libertarian "This is ours alone" concept they were practicing.

You're evaluating Black Panther's moral substance like it's a historical document, whereas this polemical argument presented by the film according to its own internal standards is precisely why people find it so repulsive. In summary: the neo-con protectionist racket pushed forth by the fantasy of Wakanda is confronted by the radical and dangerous black liberation project of the sociopathic Killmonger; and then in between we have the proposal of the beautiful & non-violent 'Third way'-ism of Nakia. This is a very old-hat trick in superhero fiction morality: have the villain posit an absurd reactionary position, and then have the hero fight for a position slightly to the left of that to win the maximal amount of the audience over.

Everyone posted:

It's not like any one thing is going to fix it. STEM centers are part of it. So is equal pay/opportunity. And police reform/retraining. And hell, having black people take advantage of the second amendment so the next time some white rear end in a top hat decides to "stand his ground" he gets put in the ground. It's all of that together. Systemic racism requires a systemic solution.

Those policies you've referenced aren't systemic solutions to systemic racism because they're not substantially anti-racist, but liberal-tolerant policies, in the sense that it doesn't meaningfully address racism in the gestation of social hierarchical rifts.

Like I'm all for wealth redistribution, but I'm under no illusion that it would be nothing but a short-term alleviation of pain, as this would not address how that wealth was accumulated in the first place via the ownership of the means of production. Other posters have written about why a STEM solution is not a sufficient goal to strive for, in that the market under which people would be selling their labor would be left entirely unchanged. Equal pay/opportunity doesn't address that the underclass is underpaid as a whole (And by extension, the inevitable reactionary rise of the politically potent white resentment exemplified by the backlash to affirmative action), police reformation doesn't work (See all the body-cam footage of police murdering black people anyway), and California has one of the strictest gun laws in the U.S. not because it's some kind of liberal bastion, but because leftist black radicals armed themselves while shoving the second amendment down our lawmakers throats (Of course, the liberal majority law-makers unified with Republicans and the NRA to pass the Mulford Act).

So without addressing why the very conception of race exists and persists in the U.S. as an integral part of the smooth functioning of the U.S.'s economic system, lawmakers will simply either reinterpret the existing rules, or straight-up change them.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 02:02 on May 9, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Everyone posted:

Forget superhero fiction morality, that hat trick's been done plenty of times in real-world politics.


From my own (admittedly white, privileged) position, the thing that gives racism teeth is class - the fact that one race, by virtue of a generally higher position within societies, has power over another race. Are there black people who are racist against white people? Sure, but for the most part, so what? Excepting some fairly uncommon circumstances, a black person isn't going to be in a position to deny a loan or job to a white person or call the cops on them. It's possible, but the default situation is going to be the white person using/abusing their position over a black person. The key to defanging racism is delinking class from race. Making so that the question of white or black is as generally irrelevant to one's life as Yankees or Red Sox fan?

The trick will be to get enough white people to go along with that. And one nasty truth that Trump revealed is that there a whole lot more white people that really want to say the quiet parts out loud than we thought.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you've written here, and please correct me if I'm wrong as to your intent, but I would posit that the caveat of the U.S.'s conception of race cannot be removed from class in an analytic perspective, because of how hopelessly & historically intertwined they are. The idea of reaching a point where race is nothing more dangerous than sports rivalry is admittedly tempting and, I realize that your analogy is not literal, but it's still useful to convey how the notion of race itself would remain as a potential threat for the hypothetical future, because of the atrocious way private sports teams in the U.S. worth billions leverage cities against each other to fund their stadiums at the cost of publicly funded infrastructure or the IOC's Olympic competitions that champion the pride of the nation-state presenting it on the global stage at the cost of the unwashed masses of whatever current city it happens to occur. You can call me an absurd idealist, but I would aim for the eradication race as substance completely, excepting the acknowledgement of its historical shaping as a concept.

You're correct that Trump exposed how much a section of white people are willing to out themselves as explicitly racist in service of their own interests, but what the usual media narrative elides about his rise to power is how necessary the other members of the populous were. This includes getting the votes of the bourgeois middle to upper class white people who would protest how they are definitionally not racist, just 'fiscally conservative'; as well as the gaining of the highest percentage of support of non-whites a Republican presidential candidate was able in the last 60 years.

So in other words, we must address those who weren't fooled by Trump's rhetoric: the diverse demographic of voters who were willing to 'hold their nose' and put into power a truly vile and overtly white-supremacist candidate for their own self-interests.

EDIT: Sorry for all the edits, as I'm having trouble getting my thoughts into coherent posts.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 06:19 on May 9, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Everyone posted:

I think race can be removed from class to at least some extent because it has been for other groups. Irish, Italians and Chinese people all faced horrific bigotry in our nation. I think one hurdle for black people comes out of the legacy of one of the more perverse aspects of slavery. See it wasn't enough that white people (and yes, some black people) owned slaves. They wanted to feel good about themselves while doing that. So, you had John C. Calhoun's concept of slavery as a "positive good." "But let me not be understood as admitting, even by implication, that the existing relations between the two races in the slaveholding States is an evil:–far otherwise; I hold it to be a good, as it has thus far proved itself to be to both, and will continue to prove so if not disturbed by the fell spirit of abolition. I appeal to facts. Never before has the black race of Central Africa, from the dawn of history to the present day, attained a condition so civilized and so improved, not only physically, but morally and intellectually." Of course that asshat's "positive good" requires that black people are intrinsically inferior to white people - which is bullshit. But it's bullshit that a lot of less-than-accomplished white people cling to in the absence of any other claim to success.

I mean that race and class can't be disentangled in the sense that critiquing race in the U.S. ideologically requires holding the historical context of class relations closely. How the Irish and Italians 'worked' their way from being officially black to white from the 19th to the 20th century offers us a view into how race functions to propagate the formal/informal caste system that reflects the extant populous.

And it's the ideological nature of race that generates the superiority fantasies like the one you've referenced. Because consciousness must justify itself as inherently good, every horrible and destructive act is always said to be done for some greater good; the evil of an act is always projected onto and for the Other. It's why the idea that standard superhero fiction is good because it at least teaches kids the difference between right and wrong is nonsensical. Colonialists wanted the land and resources of Native Americans, so they constructed a fantasy that justified genocide. People wanted to use imported chattel slave labor that had nowhere to run, so they built a narrative about how black people are savages naturally gifted at manual labor and cannot survive without masters. Once slavery was no longer the engine of economic growth, then black people retroactively became naturally lazy and leeches on our social safety net.

Of course as other posters noted, anytime black people started to build something for themselves despite it all, white people, with the support of the government, would destroy everything with the slimmest of pretexts.

Nations around the world need their minority groups while they oppress them, as their function in the social order is useful on the fantasmic level as a nexus point at which people can project their dissatisfactions of the ways that they and their society fail as an idea. Zizek wrote about how we can leverage this point as leftists: that the Black Lives Matter mantra highlights how black people's conditions in the U.S. manifests Hegel's conception of 'Concrete universality' infinitely more than the nothing slogan that is All Lives Matter. This opens up the space to, to show one example, demonstrate to white people how racism against black people hurts white people too; which is something the actual Black Panther Party did, and why they had to be wiped off the face of the earth.

And it's because the film Black Panther presents incrementalist neo-liberal policy as something cool and radical that 1) ignores all of this and 2) has already been tried and failed repeatedly that I find it so off-putting.

Everyone posted:

I'm fine with people voting their self-interest. I vote my self-interest. Of course, I vote Democratic because I see my interest being served by good things coming to all people not just the ones who look and live like me. The Democratic party is a Frankensteinian mess of special interests who have found common ground and compromise. That's a big reason I vote Democratic, because no one group is going to be allowed to stampede the others. Even if there's stuff I might like in the GOP, they're so homogeneous that the right impulse can turn them into lemmings. And Trump did.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't vote for their self-interests, as solidarity is the only way for the left to win, but that it should always be critiqued relentlessly.

I think characterizing the GOP as lemmings doesn't give them enough credit. They were always wary of Trump, and they never wanted him as their nominee in 2016. Once he showed that he could no longer win them the presidency, they dropped him like the worthless pariah he is.

You wrote that no one group can stomp out the others, but look at the polls for one example: people overwhelmingly want universal healthcare on "both sides", but we can't even get a vote to vote on it with a Democratic president and a majority in the House and Senate during a pandemic.

You say that Democrats at least bring some good to all people, but what about the effect of foreign policy on the rest of the world? And this leaves out the U.S.'s parasitic and destructive position in the extant stage of the world's economy in financialized global capitalism. It's precisely that Trump's entire act was an embarrassing disaster for the U.S.'s image on the world stage that the ruling class was never with him the way they were with Obama, and it's why he was never actually a threat to pull a coup and bring about fascism or whatever.

The film Black Panther's ending had Wakanda reveal its true self on the international stage, which included a rebuke of Trump. Now that Trump is out of office, what does it stand for?

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 16:25 on May 9, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Ferrinus posted:

"In the colonies the economic substructure is also a superstructure. The cause is the consequence; you are rich because you are white, you are white because you are rich. This is why Marxist analysis should always be slightly stretched every time we have to do with the colonial problem."

...and the US is a colony, even though it had to import and manufacture a nationality to oppress.

Race and racism aren't incidental epiphenomena that just tumbled out of class by accident; they're fundamental building blocks of the global capitalist era. The post-facto legal and ideological justifications for white supremacy - such as Disney's Black Panther - are secondary to the underlying economic relation, but race itself is not.

I have nothing to add, just love me some Fanon.

Everyone posted:

The "ruling class" might have tried to drop Trump, but he's still around and still very much exercising influence and basically still running the GOP in every way that matters. Five'll get you ten that if he's still alive in 2024, he'll be the GOP nominee. Hell, there's decent chance the fucker will end up President again.

I'm kinda fascinated at what the GOP nominee will ultimately be, as Trump kinda ran roughshod over their whole usual spiel, and I don't think there's any going back to the usual. I personally don't think Trump has a chance after how badly he screwed up Covid-19, nevermind cheerleading a goddamn insurrection. Just no Prez Zuckerberg please: even the Snyderverse isn't that grimdark.

Pillowpants posted:

Are you guys done fighting about politics in the place I go to escape from politics

That's my b: I definitely sprawled way too much.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 23:25 on May 9, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk
ugh quote not edit

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Mandrel posted:

yeah lmao at talking about dark knight rises as having good politics. it’s the OG of “this villain is objectively right, psyche just kidding he actually just wants to blow up the city and kill everybody with a big bomb” in modern superhero movies

To be fair, OP was talking strictly about the superhero films' love of the CIA as a whole. Although the film does present the CIA as meaningfully trying to protect the world from a super nuclear bomb, them getting in way over their heads is a pretty good punchline. But then we have Batman v Superman, where the CIA is presented as, not just a bunch of bumbling idiots, but ones that would, in cold-blood, create massive death & destruction to hide that very fact.

Regrettably, DKR has some hardcore liberal energy, but I find it joyfully re-watchable because of the cinematography, the way it paints Batman as such a doofus, and Tom Hardy's & Anne Hathaway's performances are just awesome.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 00:07 on May 10, 2021

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk
The question to ask is, what would Peter Parker 'responsibly' do with actual power?

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Collapsing Farts posted:

Testosterone isn't really all that dangerous. I'm pretty sure doctors are prescribing that stuff pretty easily in America nowadays

That's what these actors take to get faster results. I've done it myself, it works great.

There's a significant difference between injecting testosterone 'in general' and using it to exceed the human's body natural maximum capacity to hold skeletal muscle over an extended period of time.

It's not long now before we hear how Kumail Nanjiani works out 7 hours a day, eats 6 times a day, and sleeps 20 hours a day.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

That's marketing - you can tell because the merchandising takes up the majority of the article.

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KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk
Because the idea of success and progress being synthetic is antithetical to all prevalent U.S. ideology.

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