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Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Violator posted:

Did the Adam West Batman ever deal with his dead parents? "Golly gee, Robin! My parent's were shot in the head by low-life scum! Blammo!"
But yes, the first episode does which while still campy actually does play up the idea that Batman is supposed to be kinda scary or at least a big deal. Gordon's afraid to have to call him.

Billionaire Playboy Bruce Wayne posted:

Don't mention it, Mr. Harris. Perhaps if there had been anti-crime centers of the type you now propose when my parents were murdered by dastardly criminals...

Which makes it sound like Thomas and Martha Wayne were definitely tied to railroad tracks in 66verse.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Mar 18, 2021

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Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


2house2fly posted:

I'd like a Batman movie where he actually does detectiving. Like solves mysteries and stuff
I really want a Batman movie that is a one-crazy-night style caper.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

Wait a sec. How the hell is Fu Manchu not public domain?
The original League of Extraordinary Gentleman has to tap dance around using him as much as they do with secret agent Jimmy in later comics or antichrist Harry Potter.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


This looks fine and I love Robbie as Harley.

I do kind of wish you had a Suicide Squad that feels like the 80s comics that are more of these political thrillers. It was such a cult classic for such a long time, current Suicide Squad is a bit of a monkey's paw.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Mar 27, 2021

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


thrawn527 posted:

"So the SnyderCut was a success, and finally introduced Darkseid and the world of the New Gods to a live action audience...better cancel that movie."
I mean it is worth noting that Whedon cut really eliminates a lot of the big deal New Gods stuff, limiting it to a pretty minor character and parademons. I kind of wonder if New Gods was doing its own thing with the characters with the fresh slate and the SnyderCut complicates that?

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Lord_Magmar posted:

Genuinely from what has been said by people involved in the show since it finished, Buffy is good in spite of Whedon, not because of him.
I think that it's also a matter of relative restraint on Whedon's part earlier in his career.

Firefly is the start of him not being able to keep his obvious kinks and hangups out of his work. He has so much sexual violence towards women seeping into it as well as his thing for infantilized women. But then Dollhouse is just straight up a lot about mind controlled women sex slaves who are essentially children in their default state. poo poo's weird.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Payndz posted:

Millar's success mystifies me, because his entire gimmick seems to be "create pastiche of something familiar, add swearing, sadistic ultraviolence and anal rape, £$ching$£".
Millar tends to get good or at least iconic artists to work with him. So, beyond the elevator pitch, you do often have these striking little packages that standout.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Both MIllar and Ennis are surprisingly good at writing Superman though.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Uncle Boogeyman posted:

Ennis is also, whatever other complaints you can make about him, one of the best dialogue writers in comics, something that is decidedly not one of Millar's strengths.
Yeah, people can say whatever they want about Ennis, but I think about that "Miss" moment every now and then and goddamn.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Edward Mass posted:

The Flash movie has begun filming
We're gonna make our own Flash movie! With Batman! And another Batman! Ya know what... forget the Flash movie.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

I have little investment on Aquafina, but Hell Yeah letís get black and Asian people to fight eachother for our amusement.

Check out this take: Wu Tang Clan is cultural appropriation. They arenít Chinese!
The problem with cultural appropriation is that it's been smoothed out to just mean "People of a different culture borrowing thing from other culture." But cultural appropriation is fundamentally about colonialism, the notion of a dominant culture that can both marginalize other cultures and pick through them for the parts they want. It is rooted in how white supremacy does not just dominate, but turns the other into a commodity. And in that sense, appropriation isn't strictly tied to race, but also has class elements to it.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Mat Cauthon posted:

She has fans who want to support her but feel that they can't because she won't acknowledge the harm done in reinforcing stereotypes that harm Black people. She has fans who want to support her because of the importance of AAPI representation but can't because the way she got famous inflames tension between minority communities as well as reinforcing a model minority myth. That's criticism levied by people of all races but obviously Black and Asian people have been the most prominent voices because the impact affects them more heavily. No one is asking for her to grovel - simply saying "I realize that what I did was harmful, in the future I'm going to do better to listen and work to make space for all minorites who embody their culture to be embraced" would do wonders.
Rachel Bloom kind of became self-critical of her rap songs and did one last one towards the end of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend that kind of did a decent job of just naming that some of her rap stuff wasn't great. It's a pretty quick gag that I think shows how easy at least speaking to the to the issue can be.

I go back and forth on Awkwafina just because I knew a lot of APPI kids when I grew who have struggled with identity stuff and there is an insane amount of racism in NYC towards AAPI folks.

It does bother me that NYC BItch$ has a friggin slur for trans people because it's a rap song? I dunno. The trans hooker reference is weird in general for a song that I actually related to a lot on the whole.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


^ LoL. "Nobody thought I was cool for dunking on that one rando from the internet for having feelings. Let me quickly find another rando lady to make fun of. That'll get everyone on my side." ^

stev posted:

The movie struck a huge emotional chord with a lot of people and then the lead actor died tragically young.
Yeah my wife thought Endgame was fine when she first watched it, but when we watched it with my mom, lost it when Black Panther comes back.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


POWELL CURES KIDS posted:

Yeah, the ~marvel's black panther cultural phenomena~ isn't hard to read. It's the platonic cinema ideal of that Malcolm X quote: "The white man will try to satisfy us with symbolic victories rather than economic equity and justice." Since actual political/racial progress in this country has been, uh, let's tactfully say somewhat mitigated by the powers that be, a DoD/Marvel blockbuster about a CIA-backed African coup fills that niche. My primary objection to the whole thing, even moreso than the fact that it's a remarkably perverse act of psychological warfare, is that it apparently made everybody forget about classic 1998 Wesley Snipes vehicle Blade.

Be pretty cool to see Winston Duke get a bigger role, though. I've liked him since Us.


Could not possibly overstate my excitement for the Douchebag Captain America TV Series, starring John Cena. Hell yeah.
Alternatively, enslaved people literally told folktales of their African ancestors having Superpowers. The whole base fantasy of a superhero is the idea of hidden greatness. That nebbish reporter is really the greatest hero in the world. That skinny kid from Brooklyn is really the bravest man you'll meet. Black Panther is appealing to the audience in the same way The People Could Fly did. It is an aspirational story of Black greatness being obscured, but not gone. Also, beyond being a movie that is the first blockbuster Afro-Futurism film, Black Panther presents an alternate history Hollywood. It is at times spy thriller and sword and sandals epic. It makes motions to Nolan's Batman's movies and Lord of the Rings. It is presenting the audience an alternate timeline of what Hollywood could be.

That's not to say that there isn't legit criticism. It's a big budget Marvel movie that fundamentally can't change its own Universe and not only casts a CIA agent in the positive light--Although people's memories are a bit selective of how the CIA is presented. And even if you want to go that road, Sam Jackson IS RIGHT THERE.

But it's annoying when people use criticism to completely dismiss a film. To be clear, I think the CIA criticism amongst other things is valid. Although everyone who clutches their pearls about the film being pro-monarchy is being a clown. But we shouldn't use a criticism to just dismiss a movie entirely and anyone who the movie resonated with.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 23:05 on May 4, 2021

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


McCloud posted:

No one here is clutching pearls about the film being pro-monarchy.
I know nobody at the moment is, I was just being petty about a critique that has bothered me.

quote:

But now that you mention Sam Jackson, yes, there is a perfectly fine alphabet organisation they could have used instead of the CIA, it's called SHIELD. The fact that they did not, means that the choice to make Martin Freeman a CIA agent (instead of a State Dept employee like he was in the comics) was deliberate, and that makes that choice even worse

It's not just the CIA thing though, the whole drat movie is just peak liberal brainrot. I acknowledge that the movie resonated with a lot of people, and I respect the effect and impact that has. But the message of the film itself is trash.
That's what I'm kind of getting at. You have a Black character already in the series who would be much more interesting. I feel like there was something with Jackson being confused why he hadn't been invited in the film. It's a legit lovely thing about the movie and I think it's fair to spoil the movie for people.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Halloween Jack posted:

Cool, could you name one?
I did. The People Could Fly which I cited in my original post.

Edit: To be clear that title is from the retold version from Virginia Hamilton who preserved and retold a lot of African-American and enslaved narratives.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 03:38 on May 5, 2021

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Halloween Jack posted:

Okay, so The People Could Fly is an African-American myth about escaping slavery. Black Panther is similar to this, because it's also a myth, also created by people of African descent. (In the fictional universe of the film, anyway. It was actually created by two white Jewish immigrants.) But how is this more relevant to a movie about a coup in Africa, than anything that actually happened in Africa since the end of the Atlantic slave trade?
1) That's an oversimplification of The People Could Fly. Like I implied, the story is also about being robbed of culture and greatness. Flying means a lot of things.

2) Regardless of the comic book creators, we're discussing the Black Panther film with a Black director, writer, cast, and other crew members.

3) I don't disagree with MIC or CIA critiques iof BP although I think people become hyperbolic on Ross's actual role and arc. I was just arguing that there are reasons for why the movie appealed to people beyond people being thirsty for that CIA propaganda or whatever. You can view. a movie through more than one lens.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 19:05 on May 5, 2021

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


POWELL CURES KIDS posted:

I'm not trying to, like, attack you personally, for the record. Sorry if it feels that way. I get a little hot. It's fine to like a movie. But everything about this one, from conception to production to release, has served interests which have historically been Not Real Good for the marginalized...
Yeah, I get the critique, agree with the basic issue of the movie and don't take it personally. I think if anything annoys me, I think within this post there is a tendency to retreat to a position you're comfortable arguing with (IE How bad the CIA or MIC is which I get).

I don't really relate to your anger because do I think Black Panther hurt the real deal Civil Rights movement? No, not really. Do I think a bunch of people who I marched with this past year probably like Black Panther? Yep. Do I know people who love Black Panther who are also on the Killmonger is right train, agree with the CIA critique, and also care about real poo poo? Yep.

Because people can hold two thoughts in their heads and look through something through multiple lenses. And they can recognize a popcorn film as having value and still care about the real world. Which isn't to poo poo on your anger. I think Marvel has absolutely some weird poo poo around MIC that should be suspect.
The fact that heroes who cannot easily be folded into their militaristic view of superheroes easily get sidelined (Daredevil, Luke Cage basically don't count anymore) and Spider-Man has been made into Tony Stark, Jr is a sign of that. You're not a bad person for being mad about a movie supporting lovely things or at least making lovely people relatable.

But I think that sometimes critiques can be used as cudgel. Like the starting point of this line of thought wasn't that the critique is invalid like Halloween Jack was getting at, but that I don't think the critique adequately explains people having passion or liking the movie.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


POWELL CURES KIDS posted:

Yeah, my tendency to beat dead horses has been frequently noted through my life, and I'm sorry, seriously, for the tedium. I can certainly understand, and respect, that the film is a product of contradictions. They're what I'm objecting to, after all, and the fact is that if I'd enjoyed it on at least some other level, I probably wouldn't be (over)reacting the way that I am. Tossing problematic media would mean tossing most media, and being able to enjoy something despite finding it objectionable is basic self-care in 2021.

My own estimation of the film's content and cultural impact going forward is different than yours, but stepping back, I think why it sticks with me so much is that the narrative surrounding it, at least the narrative that's received any airtime, is all in the vein of fawning admiration for the progressive elements, with no acknowledgment of what's damaging or cynical. I wanted to like it, I wanted to like its politics, I wanted to feel like it would have a legitimately positive legacy, even if marginal, even if I was skeptical going in--so when I didn't end up feeling that way, and when the hype train never stopped, I went all pissbaby. It's filling a necessary and deeply neglected role in American media. Something like it, and something much, much better than it, should've hit this kind of critical mass forever ago. But it only seems to exist to betray the values we've been told that it champions. And, dead horse, I feel it does so to an almost...obscene extent. Pernicious! There's another good one.

Still just as mad about the Blade erasure, for the record.

Halloween Jack posted:

Oh sure, I understand that representation isn't nothing. I'm saying that this movie ultimately doesn't have better politics than, like, Rambo 3. So the culture war around it, like all kulturkampf, is very dumb and bad.
Yeah, I think these are all reasonable posts even if I disagree with aspects and thank you for listening.

I think regardless, critique shouldn't be used as cudgel in either direction. Black Panther's aspirational afro futurism and Black great movie ride delight doesn't eradicate critiques about the CIA presence or the fact that Black Panther's big charitable action is a thing that Ryan Coogler could just do himself.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


The intellectual problem I have with the monarchy criticism is that it's a piece of fiction and monarchies can at times take a more figurative role. Yes, literally, it is problematic that Aragorn becomes King or that Aladdin doesn't lead a peasant revolt with his final wish. And while there is some discussion to be had about how we position benevolent monarchies in fiction, it's a critique that leaves people distant from the text. Because if your focus is all on how monarchies are bad and not what is being communicated when Aragon kneels in front of the Hobbits, you're not engaging in the text itself to create deeper readings. It's a very limited criticism in a way that I don't think the CIA or MIC stuff is.

There are a lot of nuances on screen in how Wakanda is being depicted. There is some form of representation amongst the tribes and they are being shut out by Killmonger with preference only given the ICE tribe. There's a lot going on in regards to the position of women in Wakanda. There is a lot going on with there being a system to peacefully transition power which Killmonger destroys, something that T'Challa's main rival before Killmonger cannot bring himself to do. And all of this stuff is not to say that the movie is good, but for better or for worse it's stuff that needs to be understood to discuss the film at all in any direction. And just going, "Monarchies are bad" runs a bulldozer over it.

But at another level like, I really do understand why someone is upset about making a CIA Agent relatable or the broader MIC trends in the MCU. Or how people are afraid that Killmonger works on angry black man stereotypes or can be a strawman for actual real world revolution. Like what is the fear here though? That all the kids want to start monarchies? Do you think the movie is pro-monarchy in that it is suggesting we should do away with natural rights? Is the movie in any way propaganda for any real life monarchy?

And like look, if you don't like the movie because you can't make that jump because obviously a monarchy is not a great real world thing then that's fine. I actually struggle to connect with Lord of the Rings. But when people are like the movie is bad because it's pro-monarchy that just seems really silly to me.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 13:10 on May 6, 2021

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


As a Black Panther liker, I don't think Killmonger is hard to decode. Killmonger grew up in a hosed up place, tucked away his trauma by taking on an authoritarian roles out of a sense of security. Killmonger is visually coded as a cop for a lot of the movie--blues, tactical gear--as well as the Wakandans who actually side with him who are functionally border patrol. But he really did grow up in a racist rear end country and see his dad die. It's supposed to be tragic because he does have legitimate grievances and you can see the hurt in his father during the ancestral plane scene. The line at the end of the movie is not him appropriating real struggles--talk to Claude McKay about what it means to be a wealthy and well-to-do Black man immigrating to the US--because those are real struggles.

Killmonger being a super-predator is the worst take.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


KVeezy3 posted:

You're approaching the MCU like it's a literal parallel universe as opposed to a fictional bunch of work to be interpreted. Imagine if the MCU had an origin story of the CIA without its horrid history, but genuinely fighting for 'truth and justice'. Then we would have that in conjunction with a story where the real global threat is a black guy being too mad about systemic oppression.

Like no, this would make the MCU even more obscene, not less.
Yeah, I always find when people straight up go for T'Challa is collaborating with the CIA they're spiking the ball a bit on the CIA critique. The movie is communicating to us that Killmonger isn't the Joker just letting the world burn. He's someone who became scary by going through legal US institutions. If you're a scared little kid who wants to be able to shoot and bully people, the US will let you if you put in the effort. Like I said, he's a cop.

But that's why all the Ross stuff seems gross to me, not because the film is CIA propaganda per se--although it has literally been used as such--but that the film both recognizes that the CIA is bad, Ross is at least complicit in imperialism, but gives him a weak redemption arc so maybe the CIA isn't all THAT bad?

Spacebump posted:

Nobody said super-predator. Yes his story is tragic, but tragic people can still commit wrongs. At some point he should be accountable for his actions. Doesn't Killmonger kill or attempt to kill almost every woman he talks to in the movie? Why did he need to murder his girlfriend? Isn't he introduced in a scene where he is leading a squad to commit mass murder in museum during the day? This was better to do than rob the museum at night because?
Sorry, I'm not trying to be purposefully provocative, I just feel like it's not hard to get that point from your posts and I'm struggling with what you would even consider the movie to be about.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Neo Rasa posted:

When he started saying how Killmonger is using the CIA's methods I was briefly expecting him to then reveal how he was working with Killmonger all along to bring Freedom to Wakanda which is why they were so easily able to bust Ulysses Klaue out/etc. Naive of course but in the moment of watching the movie I was just assuming he was going to turn out to be bad or at least conflicted/complicit at some point because as others pointed out I figured like why else is he just a "regular" CIA guy and not from SHIELD or whatever.
I kind of have mixed feelings about this because yes, I think what you're describing would make a lot more thematic sense, but also take some agency away from Killmonger.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


KVeezy3 posted:

I understand that you're referring to Killmonger's cold-blooded use of force, but I think the characterization of him as a cop doesn't clarify but obscures, because essential to the constitution of police is their badge as symbolic authority imbued by the state. It's terrifying to mess with a cop because the full force of hegemony will come down on you, regardless of that individual cop's beliefs. Killmonger is terrifying because of his absolute ideological commitment as an individual, which strengthens his ability to draw people around the world to his cause; if the second part of this description wasn't true, then he wouldn't be a supervillain.
I think in the case of the Wakandans--We're not made privy to his crew before he comes to Wakanda--but it's important who he is appealing to and why he appeals to them. Daniel Kaluuya is literally a cop, his tribe being the sort of border guardians of Wakanda, and are visually coded as such with their blues. Killmonger's initial appeals beyond that of just bloodline are around the fact that he killed Klau.

I think we're conflating Killmonger's grievances and ideology. His grievances regarding white supremacy and the failures of Wakanda are all legitimate. But we only see him carry himself as an authoritarian and making appeals to security and hierarchy.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


KVeezy3 posted:

You're confusing cop with standard militarism.
That seems like a pedantic argument though and not speaking to the issue of ideology. I'm not saying that Killmonger is literally a police officer, but Kaluuya I'd argue is at least a parallel for one. Wakanda has a distinct system of military protections, while the tribe's role seems to be protecting Wakanda although it's from what we understand it is a utopia that doesn't need policing. I get the impression from the end exchange with the cousin that prisons don't exist. The allusions to police in the film are meant as short hand for authoritarianism.

But like I said, that seems more like a pedantic argument. The bigger issue is separate grievance from ideology. Killmonger isn't really shown making class based appeals to a proletariat. He makes appeals based off of security. I don't think he's talking in bad faith. I think he really does want to kill white Supremacists which hey, but the movie is presenting him as dangerous not because of those grievances but because he only sees the world through authoritarian systems. It's why the film never makes the stakes actually about white people getting killed, but about Wakanda itself.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


POWELL CURES KIDS posted:

or maybe not, or this isn't relevant, gently caress my brain hurt
I think for the most part, the vast majority of people are on the side that to some degree Killmonger's base mission and ideology are good, but the movie is presenting him as a strawman and capitalizing on angry Black man stereotypes.

I don't think that's a complete depiction of the film as I don't think the movie discounts Killmonger's key grievances, but presents him as a tragic figure who has adopted an authoritarian world view. Granted, I don't think this read on things if immune from the angry Blackman strawman argument. I more just think that stuff like how police imagery is leveraged sort of falls by the wayside when the film is only discussed as CIA propaganda.

I think one poster was being way too literal and focusing on just Killmonger's violence and not the context in a fictional film which we're discussing and had a weird take on what if the MCU CIA was good.

Most of us agree the CIA poo poo in the film and Ross as a character is bad.

I think for the most part people are listening to each other and being pretty polite. it's just we disagree on some stuff.

V Yeah, but the issue is that it's a choice. Why give the CIA redemption at all? Why not use Nick Fury? V

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 17:37 on May 7, 2021

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


KVeezy3 posted:

I do not think it's pedantic to question why you've chosen to characterize Killmonger specifically as a cop, because framing the non-police as such has specific historical/cultural implications. Cops have a relatively brief existence in history with a very particular formation relative to the state/populous, and drawing some nebulous lines directly to it because an entity promotes an abstract notion of authority and security isn't substantial enough.

Like the actual Black Panthers took authority and security by force to protect their neighborhoods, and it would be preposterous and insulting to characterize them as 'cops' or call that 'cop behavior'.
Well, I think that the film is using cop imagery (Blue, tactical vests) as shorthand. I agree that he is not a literal cop or the film is some allegory about the police. It's the same how Star Wars used Nazi imagery as shorthand for its characters. It's not a literal allegory for Nazism, but acts as short hand to evoke truths about the character.

The reason I found the argument pedantic is that even without the cop imagery, I would argue that his actions are authoritative and his main appeals to power in Wakanda are rooted in authority and security. Daniel Kaluuya's for example really doesn't seem to give a poo poo about the revolution. His concerns are more with the rest of the world sending Iron Men to conquer them. My bigger issue is that I think people are treating grievance and ideology as the same thing. So, you either:

-- Have to see Killmonger as a true revolutionary fighting for Black liberation
-- Or see Killmonger as a bad faith actor who doesn't give a poo poo about Black Liberation

Neither is true although the former more true than the latter. His grievances are correct and in good faith, but his mental models and how he actually persuades people is fundamentally authoritative.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 19:42 on May 7, 2021

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Junkozeyne posted:

Black supression in the real world has nothing to do with nobody teaching black people STEM, .
Okay, but that's not true. Like a huge amount of Black oppression has been related to lack of education since slavery. It's part of that systematic oppression. We're still struggling with access to resources and how education for Black and Brown kids focuses on control and compliance whereas for white kids it is more often focused on intellectual enrichment and exploration.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Everyone posted:

Exactly. Plus, within the MCU teaching black kids how to navigate, exploit, subvert and overthrow the system seems like a much more promising avenue than handing out laser guns and telling them to "Go shoot Whitey!"
Well no, the ending is still bad because it's pretty unimaginative and nebulous. Despite the "LOL coding" stuff, the actual language being used is super vague of what exactly they're building. It being a charter school or an embassy or a cultural center or a shelter all seem equally possible. And honestly, building a cool thing in the increasing gentrified Oakland isn't the most promising thing.

The MCU is currently a world where literally half the planet was dead for five years, Norse Gods are definitely and well known to be real, and first contact has been made with alien species. But it would be too weird for it also to be a world where T'Challa just paid for reparations or something ambitious.

Saying that education actually has nothing to do with Black oppression clearly isn't true, but it's not even clear if what they're building has anything to do with education. It's the most vague phrasing to get across that Wakanda is doing something, but that's kinda weak sauce.

Also

Everyone posted:

telling them to "Go shoot Whitey!"
ew.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 01:36 on May 8, 2021

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


YOLOsubmarine posted:

There is some truth to this but it also misses the point. Even when controlling for education level blacks have worse career outcomes and financial outcomes. The implication is that black people are much poorer, more likely to be killed by police, more likely to spend time in prison, more likely to be unemployed, more likely to die early because they donít understand physics well enough.
Oh agreed, I'm not really defending the ending or the movie at this point. But discounting the role education has served in white supremacy seems like a huge mistake to me. Douglass cites it as the primary tool of controlling the enslaved and the school to captivity pipeline (A term I borrow from the excellent book Pushout over the usual school to prison pipeline) is a very real thing. It's not just a matter of lack of access to educational resources, it's that we train kids to think they are primarily bodies to be controlled instead of minds to be engaged. It's a traumatic experience.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Ferrinus posted:

Dude like 90% of contemporary superhero movies are about how cool the CIA is. Black Panther just did us the courtesy of not pretending otherwise.
Further evidence that The Dark Knight Rises is actually a good movie. It's super explicit that the CIA is indeed not cool.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 20:55 on May 9, 2021

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


^Yeah mostly agree with that^

KVeezy3 posted:

To be fair, OP was talking strictly about the superhero films' love of the CIA as a whole. Although the film does present the CIA as meaningfully trying to protect the world from a super nuclear bomb, them getting in way over their heads is a pretty good punchline. But then we have Batman V Superman, where the CIA is presented as, not just a bunch of bumbling idiots, but ones that would, in cold-blood, create massive destruction & death to hide that very fact.
Yeah, that's a fair assessment. Deception is a big motif in TDKR and the gag is that he's sort of hit the limits of bluffing with the baddies, but that's kinda assuming a level of limits and morality for the CIA. Similar to how the Dent Act is indeed presented as horrific, but also as a good faith effort that just went too far. You see it in the end with the cops. I think years removed from Occupy, what you're really seeing is a bunch of unarmed cops running towards military vehicles and militia members. There's an idea of the platonic ideal of cops running towards the militarized police. The issue is that it assumes a platonic ideal of good cops.

There's stuff I like a lot like the inherent message of the necessity of the privileged actually having to give up their privilege to do anything that means a drat. But what I will give TDKR a lot of credit for is I think Nolan has a bluntness that I appreciate. Like there is no wishy-washy maybe Bane was right and went too far stuff. He's just definitively a charlatan, although the movie doesn't really walk back him being technically right. It's not a politically perfect movie at all, but it feels more like an honest point of view from a creative team that you can more easily engage with for better or for worse.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


This conversation did make me realize how the MCU is slowly morphing into quite a different creature than the comics and more overtly an alternate universe. Like the whole conceit of the massive superhero universe is everything is true--including our world in its broad strokes. Obviously they're different from the very nature of having space sun gods and such or imaginary cities and countries, but the broad strokes of history are generally to assumed as having happened. You generally assume all Presidents were the Presidents. Even things that don't get referenced or are significantly different in the moment are assumed to be true as they become the past of comics and their sliding time scale. Superman had a lot of Presidential politics stuff twenty years ago, but because the timeline changes and moved forward, now you just assume Bush was President.

But the MCU doesn't have a sliding timeline. Things are very set. It just seems kind of weird ten years down the line if the MCU still exists that it's this world where huge historical events like COVID-19, George Floyd's murder, and 01/06 just never happened.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


He cancelled the Rand stuff because he read the loving room and also lack of WB love

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


I think ideally Zack Snyder tag teaming with like Greta Gerwig for a Saga adaptation would be a good movie.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


I'm kind of curious of what people's lived experiences as the directors and writers on the series have been like. Like a showrunner can also stomp down on the creativity on talent, and there are shows where writers don't really get to do anything and are just glorified editors for a creative genius. They can act like bullies locking people out of the room like Sam Simon did for years to women writers on The Simpsons or like creepy gurus who abuse their power like Dan Harmon or Matthew Weiner.

it's Marvel and I'm aware of them not just making story elements straight edict but also storyboarding movies before there is even a proper creative team. So, not really going to go to bat for them being a bastion for artistic vision. But I'm not totally against the idea of a traditional showrunner being challenged.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

What is the practical difference between not having a show runner and having a series of shows all made by the same director/producer ala J.J. Abrams or Shondaland?
Producers like that can be more of guiding influences or original creators than actually serving the day to day writing and production. A showrunner is exactly what it sounds like. It's the person in the thick of it, usually managing the writer's room and general creative direction of the show. Sometimes it's a more mercenary like position, but it can often be the creator of the show. They can take on other roles like directing, but in general TV has always been a bit more writer-centric than film.

EDIT: To be clear, Abrams and Shondland's shows all have/had showrunners who have more influence than what is being described in the Marvel stuff. I mean Abrams producing Lost and having Lindelof showrun is what eventually led to him actually making good stuff like The Leftovers.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 21:42 on May 13, 2021

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Detective No. 27 posted:

Finally, some vindication for saying that retconning a "real" Mandarin in an Iron Man 3 DVD bonus short was a dumb idea.
You don't understand, I read a wikipedia article about the Mandarin after seeing Iron Man thirteen years ago and that jogged my memory that I vaguely remember him from a lovely 90s cartoon so the Mandarin is an important character.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


^ The X-men have actually gone through some interesting phases like the Morrison-Era really setting mutants up as an unique culture or Aaron recasting Wolverine as Professor X. It all eventually just runs its course and goes back to the status quo though. ^

I really liked the swagger of The Eternals trailer starting with "It's beautiful, isn't it?" Very self-aware of this being much prettier than your usual Avengers flick.

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Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


RBA Starblade posted:

I'm pretty sure that was only in the movie
And even then it's less that the aliens were helping us build poo poo and more the dark notion that our entire civilization was essentially being farmed by another species.

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