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DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case




Feldegast42 posted:

Given that someone just started this thread (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3952915) I think that there could come another set of reactionaries from really broken leftists from the aftermath of the Bernie movement that would be interested in either a red / brown alliance or just complete nihilist accelerationism. Succ zone seems to be heading down this path.

accelerationism is the result of materially comfortable leftists whose affiliation with the movement is mostly affective or aesthetic. they took bernie losing very hard because they had a weird parasocial attachment to left politics. it was a personal affront to them when the libs stole the primary for biden, and so their political universe re-centered around revenge on those wicked libs. because they're materially comfortable they don't have to worry about finding another avenue to advance left politics and they don't have to worry about organizing locally for local victories because that poo poo's boring.

there are a few of them on cspam since this forum mostly has computer touchers and other assorted bourg

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Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006



Hodgepodge posted:

so maybe just


finally got a name, or maybe it (also?) means lgbt people who want their identity to be "the good ones"?

The people like shoeonhead who made videos making fun of "sjws" called themselves "antis" 2014-2016. They are thankfully an extinct species these days.

Feldegast42
Oct 29, 2011



DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

accelerationism is the result of materially comfortable leftists whose affiliation with the movement is mostly affective or aesthetic. they took bernie losing very hard because they had a weird parasocial attachment to left politics. it was a personal affront to them when the libs stole the primary for biden, and so their political universe re-centered around revenge on those wicked libs. because they're materially comfortable they don't have to worry about finding another avenue to advance left politics and they don't have to worry about organizing locally for local victories because that poo poo's boring.

there are a few of them on cspam since this forum mostly has computer touchers and other assorted bourg

This describes me way too well

TooMuchCornstarch
Dec 11, 2012
Too much is never enough.

Antifa Turkeesian posted:

The people like shoeonhead who made videos making fun of "sjws" called themselves "antis" 2014-2016. They are thankfully an extinct species these days.

The remaining ones hang around fandom twitter organizing increasingly dubious pedo hunts and turning into full blown nazis one by one.

Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

Blind.
Idiot.
God.



Feldegast42 posted:

Given that someone just started this thread (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3952915) I think that there could come another set of reactionaries from really broken leftists from the aftermath of the Bernie movement that would be interested in either a red / brown alliance or just complete nihilist accelerationism. Succ zone seems to be heading down this path.

I dunno, it seems that Aimee Terese and the rest of the "Post-Left" are currently speedrunning that, which seems distinct from wherever the gently caress succzone is going.

The former seems to be doing a basic "the reason we don't have socialism is that these imaginary working class coal miners don't like <vulnerable group> so to get socialism, we need to throw <vulnerable group> under the bus for everyone's sake", even if they like to gussy up their arguments with a fascile understanding of class.

I poke my head into succzone from time to time and they just seem to be in the disorganized and disillusioned stage that comes after a defeat. I suspect they'll swing back to advocating something positive (not saying it'll be electoralism) after a while.

It's the Post-Left that seems most likely to want to make a red-brown alliance, but right now it's such a tiny thing that I don't know there's an alliance to make. I guess it's possible that this picks up folks who weren't already hardcore reactionaries with a thin veneer of leftism, but my bet is that more folks will end up there via ecofascism than post-Bernie disillusionment.

SMEGMA_MAIL
May 4, 2018


THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021





quote:

computer touchers and other assorted bourg

What exactly is your definition of bourgeoisie lol

kitten emergency
Jan 13, 2008

get meow dis wack-ass
crystal prison











Azathoth posted:

I dunno, it seems that Aimee Terese and the rest of the "Post-Left" are currently speedrunning that, which seems distinct from wherever the gently caress succzone is going.

The former seems to be doing a basic "the reason we don't have socialism is that these imaginary working class coal miners don't like <vulnerable group> so to get socialism, we need to throw <vulnerable group> under the bus for everyone's sake", even if they like to gussy up their arguments with a fascile understanding of class.

I poke my head into succzone from time to time and they just seem to be in the disorganized and disillusioned stage that comes after a defeat. I suspect they'll swing back to advocating something positive (not saying it'll be electoralism) after a while.

It's the Post-Left that seems most likely to want to make a red-brown alliance, but right now it's such a tiny thing that I don't know there's an alliance to make. I guess it's possible that this picks up folks who weren't already hardcore reactionaries with a thin veneer of leftism, but my bet is that more folks will end up there via ecofascism than post-Bernie disillusionment.

there were a non-zero amount of posters in succ zone unironically advocating for trying to do entryism into the GOP because "trump shows that there's real interest in populism!"

Epic High Five
Jun 5, 2004





MysteriousStranger posted:

Nope. LCRs were just rich Republicans in blue states who really didn't have to deal with the Jesus brigade locally but really hated paying taxes. They got run out of the GOP after the fight over gay marriage was lost and when state governors tried to pass religious liberty laws to allow businesses to end run anti discrimination laws and rich corporations threatened to boycott the states thus bankrupting and the states caved. This was also when the Religious Right decided that capitalism was woke and anti Christian and thus bad.

Hell the LCRs are now banned from CPAC!

it was really funny just how much abuse and contempt they had to pretend wasn't happening to convince themselves that they were being taken seriously, like how one of the Obama-era CPACs had their booth way in the fringe between two extremely anti-gay preachers

I think what really killed them was the Dem shift to woke capitalism tho, if you are LGBT but also affluent and white and a neocon in every other way, the modern Dems are probably the first time in history you've got a party that exactly matches what you want

DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case




SpaceSDoorGunner posted:

What exactly is your definition of bourgeoisie lol

found the computer toucher lol

SMEGMA_MAIL
May 4, 2018


THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021





kitten emergency posted:

there were a non-zero amount of posters in succ zone unironically advocating for trying to do entryism into the GOP because "trump shows that there's real interest in populism!"

What isthe succ zone? Is it like a specific place? I thought it was just a term for Pete Buttigieg style Dems

SMEGMA_MAIL
May 4, 2018


THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021





DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

found the computer toucher lol

Iím a nurse but

Like are we going to argue how having the wrong kind of wage job makes not a TRUE PROLETARIAT because I really donít think you understand what those words means since weíre arguing about different kinds of wage jobs

SMEGMA_MAIL has issued a correction as of 15:22 on Jan 4, 2021

animist
Aug 28, 2018




MysteriousStranger posted:

It's not just Qanon though. It's the entire social/cultural/religious conservative right, of which Q is just the latest itterration of the crazy. The thing is, the anger is because of social issues. The right firmly believes that capital is against them and backing the gay agenda because of pride day and other items. That capital is outright anti Christian and one of the reasons their religion is in deep decline. That capital is all in on social justice/race theory/wokeism. That capital supports non european immigration and forces it on them. That capital is all in on women in the work place and thus against the traditional family.

They want what they were promised on culture. And to be fair to them, they were told that they would get it. They were promised all that and then got nothing, in fact capital turned around and started backing stuff like gay rights. Goldman Sachs at the height of the economic crisis was (still is!) one of the most diverse and progressive places to work along with the business partner of the Human Rights Campaign. The LGBTQ movement owes it's success to big business and capital.

Establishment Democrats and Republicans still don't want to admit what happened, because the deal is ugly. Capital promised the cultural right what it wanted in exchange for tax cuts and deregulation, and then backed the cultural left in the fight in exchange for them not doing anything about it. The reckoning is going to be over that.

good post

Epic High Five
Jun 5, 2004





Azathoth posted:

I dunno, it seems that Aimee Terese and the rest of the "Post-Left" are currently speedrunning that, which seems distinct from wherever the gently caress succzone is going.

The former seems to be doing a basic "the reason we don't have socialism is that these imaginary working class coal miners don't like <vulnerable group> so to get socialism, we need to throw <vulnerable group> under the bus for everyone's sake", even if they like to gussy up their arguments with a fascile understanding of class.

I poke my head into succzone from time to time and they just seem to be in the disorganized and disillusioned stage that comes after a defeat. I suspect they'll swing back to advocating something positive (not saying it'll be electoralism) after a while.

It's the Post-Left that seems most likely to want to make a red-brown alliance, but right now it's such a tiny thing that I don't know there's an alliance to make. I guess it's possible that this picks up folks who weren't already hardcore reactionaries with a thin veneer of leftism, but my bet is that more folks will end up there via ecofascism than post-Bernie disillusionment.

Its leadership is 100% insane post-grad students who spend all their time online, it's as much of a death sentence for a movement as if it were headed by Rudy

SpaceSDoorGunner posted:

What isthe succ zone? Is it like a specific place? I thought it was just a term for Pete Buttigieg style Dems

It's an actual thread in CSPAM but since mid-December or so has been an endless repeating of the same 4 posts by the same ~10 posters who apparently have found a comfortable routine they're loath to change

Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

Blind.
Idiot.
God.



kitten emergency posted:

there were a non-zero amount of posters in succ zone unironically advocating for trying to do entryism into the GOP because "trump shows that there's real interest in populism!"

I saw that but read it as expressing extreme contempt for the Dems, as in "gently caress, it'd be easier to make the Republicans populist than the Dems" not an earnest interest in becoming Republican, but I both don't care to defend succzone nor pour through the thread to see if I'm right or wrong. Either way, it's a little inside baseball to discuss that thread here, so I'm going to disengage from that after having said my piece.

DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case




SpaceSDoorGunner posted:

Iím a nurse but

Like are we going to argue how having the wrong kind of wage job makes not a TRUE PROLETARIAT because I really donít think you understand what those words means since weíre arguing about different kinds of wage jobs

yeah i was being a little flippant tbh and should properly have said petit bourg. but bourg is not the same as capital. the marxist definition positions bourg as the capital class, which is fine as far as it goes, but it collapses two useful separate categories down into one. the term predates marx.
the group i'm referring to is what a properly marxist framework would call a "labor aristocracy" but basically consists of members of the working classes that have nevertheless achieved such a level of material comfort that class politics for them is less about survival than solidarity-- or, in the accelerationist case, aesthetics. true solidarity demands unglamorous, sometimes humiliating work in order to better the lot of the proletariat. accelerationists reject that in favor of an ostensibly "radical" but in reality selfish and aesthetic form of politics that appeals to their sense of drama. any work that they find boring or unglamorous can be dismissed as "insufficiently radical." this tendency was present throughout the 60s-80s, a period notable for being the most rapid and total collapse of left politics in the history of the world, and has unfortunately resurfaced lately.

it's basically the mirror image of lib poo poo. libs are all about performative wokeness while in reality doing nothing, accelerationists are all about performative radicalism while in reality doing... nothing, but with style

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



Itís expressed commonly about individuals, that itís easier to bring a disaffected person from the right all the way left than it is to move a snug centrist.

In no way should this be applied to entire political parties.

SMEGMA_MAIL
May 4, 2018


THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021





DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

.

it's basically the mirror image of lib poo poo. libs are all about performative wokeness while in reality doing nothing, accelerationists are all about performative radicalism while in reality doing... nothing, but with style
That is a good description lol

kitten emergency
Jan 13, 2008

get meow dis wack-ass
crystal prison











one thing i'm genuinely curious about is how these groups will evolve as they're forced off of the "mainstream" internet. trump's ramblings about section 230 aside, there seems to be a broad consensus amongst policymakers that the ability for the little people to say whatever they want online must be curtailed. sesta/fosta demonstrated how quickly chilling effects spread, i wouldn't necessarily be surprised if further laws and regulations are passed that effectively ban all political speech that isn't "verified" in some way.

that said, how do the reactionaries raise money in that scenario? how do they recruit? it's one thing to start facebook groups and knockoff gofundmes in order to rip off clueless boomer+'s, but it's another thing entirely to get them onto tor or telegram for them to find you in the first place.

DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case




the "GOP entryism" idea is the stupidest poo poo i've ever seen. you literally just saw the GOP machine take donald trump, whose 2016 platform was a vague blend of peronism and strasserism, and digest him into governing like a Reagan clone. they have a proven, demonstrable ability to break down any populist movement and redirect it into the service of capital. it's just a way to performatively poo poo on the dems ("it would easier to work with republicans than with you!")
yeah, dems suck, but the enemy of your enemy is a fascist monster machine. you might be able to outsmart some of the more sincere chuds, you can't outsmart the Club For Growth.

TrixRabbi
Aug 20, 2010

Time for a little robot chauvinism!



ram dass in hell posted:

Fkin spooky how close they got it. Only missing a bigass circle for "people who agree with the actor from home alone 2 who said all mexicans are probably rapists" but they were a year early for that!

The more surprising miss was "your mom starts posting on 8chan."

Bedshaped
Apr 1, 2010




Soiled Meat

kitten emergency posted:

one thing i'm genuinely curious about is how these groups will evolve as they're forced off of the "mainstream" internet. trump's ramblings about section 230 aside, there seems to be a broad consensus amongst policymakers that the ability for the little people to say whatever they want online must be curtailed. sesta/fosta demonstrated how quickly chilling effects spread, i wouldn't necessarily be surprised if further laws and regulations are passed that effectively ban all political speech that isn't "verified" in some way.

that said, how do the reactionaries raise money in that scenario? how do they recruit? it's one thing to start facebook groups and knockoff gofundmes in order to rip off clueless boomer+'s, but it's another thing entirely to get them onto tor or telegram for them to find you in the first place.

I think the biden presidency is when rightwing social media will properly take off. Twitter is not a tenable battleground anymore, lib boombers are becoming woke to pulling the brakes on facebook. Youtube has already become a space where far right propeganda is going completely unnoticed and indistinguishable from general content and it has become this way due to advertising requirement changes so it's less obviously abrasive politically

There will be two internets which won't have to interact with each other except for offline where the discourse becomes more violent and bloody

ram dass in hell
Dec 29, 2019



SpaceSDoorGunner posted:

What isthe succ zone? Is it like a specific place? I thought it was just a term for Pete Buttigieg style Dems

Morpheus: Unfortunately, nobody can be told what the succ zone is. You'll have to see it for yourself.

Snail Information
May 29, 2010

Snailmancy


Bedshaped posted:

There will be two internets which won't have to interact with each other except for offline where the discourse becomes more violent and bloody

I don't disagree, but it's a bit frightening.

dead gay comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011




Azathoth posted:

It's the Post-Left that seems most likely to want to make a red-brown alliance, but right now it's such a tiny thing that I don't know there's an alliance to make

ah gently caress that poo poo, to hell with anyone who even remotely describes themselves as leftists in 2021 and wants to go to bed with fascists, loving traitor bullshit by spineless vermin

MysteriousStranger
Mar 3, 2016

"if you're "shelter in place" and middle class or better it's a chance for real self improvement"




dead gay comedy forums posted:

ah gently caress that poo poo, to hell with anyone who even remotely describes themselves as leftists in 2021 and wants to go to bed with fascists, loving traitor bullshit by spineless vermin

There's a dawning reality for them that the "working class" is socially conservative and will never join up no matter how many economic goodies they throw at them as long as women/lgbtq/minorities don't go under the bus. Conversely the middle class and wealthy that are strong on social issues won't tolerate socialism or leftist economics. So they either have to give up on economics or social issues, there is no way to get both. This is also why you get the sort of crazy accelerationalism into burning down the system where a leftist uptopia will rise in glorious revolution nonsense that animates a good portion of them. The problem is burning it all down won't do that, those two groups will still exist and then the only way out is one side is going to wipe out the other and you get the camps and the death squads.

This is one of those realizations that causes people to turn into shitlibs and lanyards. Conservatives just say "gently caress it we need a Franco". And in true American fashion they wished for a Franco the monkey finger curled and Trump came down the escalator.

kitten emergency posted:

one thing i'm genuinely curious about is how these groups will evolve as they're forced off of the "mainstream" internet. trump's ramblings about section 230 aside, there seems to be a broad consensus amongst policymakers that the ability for the little people to say whatever they want online must be curtailed. sesta/fosta demonstrated how quickly chilling effects spread, i wouldn't necessarily be surprised if further laws and regulations are passed that effectively ban all political speech that isn't "verified" in some way.

that said, how do the reactionaries raise money in that scenario? how do they recruit? it's one thing to start facebook groups and knockoff gofundmes in order to rip off clueless boomer+'s, but it's another thing entirely to get them onto tor or telegram for them to find you in the first place.

They don't really raise money now. Right now the right is pushing tech companies to give conservatives carte blanche for all their crazy under free speech or get broken up, we'll see what happens.

Epic High Five
Jun 5, 2004





I don't really think we have sample size enough to say whether or not hardly anybody would get on board for actual socialist policy because most people have never been exposed to or promised them. I mean we'll never get the idpol focused retirees or jetski dealership owners on board but M4A and legal weed are definitely strongly leftist positions that poll positive even among the Republican base and it's not it's only reactionary revolutions have enjoyed the support of the disaffected lumpen.

We've got the steady shift of latinos from the Dems to GOP over the years that certainly hints at a big part of the population that are socially conservative but will put that aside for redistributive policies if they are on the table, but vote for the chuds if they aren't.

Anecdote ain't worth much but I can definitely tell ya that getting somebody to vote for Bernie was probably a lot easier than getting them to vote for Biden in Obama to Trump country where I'm at.

Shame that the party decided it was all wrapped up before we got to vote and we ended up once again being the first state called for Trump lmao

Cpt_Obvious
Jun 18, 2007

I don't Want to be this kind of animal anymore.



There's a distinct difference between "we can convert alienated workers from the right over to the left" and "let's break bread with Nazis".

dead gay comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011




Cpt_Obvious posted:

There's a distinct difference between "we can convert alienated workers from the right over to the left" and "let's break bread with Nazis".

neoliberal discourse contamination has hosed up a lot of contextual understanding for a lot of people

(just to be clear that I agree with you)

kitten emergency
Jan 13, 2008

get meow dis wack-ass
crystal prison











Bedshaped posted:

I think the biden presidency is when rightwing social media will properly take off. Twitter is not a tenable battleground anymore, lib boombers are becoming woke to pulling the brakes on facebook. Youtube has already become a space where far right propeganda is going completely unnoticed and indistinguishable from general content and it has become this way due to advertising requirement changes so it's less obviously abrasive politically

There will be two internets which won't have to interact with each other except for offline where the discourse becomes more violent and bloody

yeah, maybe. i wonder how sustainable right wing social media is, though, without libs to beat up on.

Dang It Bhabhi!
May 27, 2004

Every idiot can count to one.


kitten emergency posted:

yeah, maybe. i wonder how sustainable right wing social media is, though, without libs to beat up on.

They will admit that itís not. I forget which thread it was but someone had a parler screenshot or something that was like ďitís no fun without libtards to beat up on.Ē

TrixRabbi
Aug 20, 2010

Time for a little robot chauvinism!



The thing about societal collapse is that the rich all have bunkers in New Zealand while the poor will die, and the idea of that being good for the working class is laughable on its face. I don't know if any accelerationist has ever considered what collapse actually looks like.

ekuNNN
Nov 27, 2004





thalweg
Aug 26, 2019


Snail Information posted:

I don't disagree, but it's a bit frightening.

It is, but also i dont think that's really a huge shift from where we are now. People already inhabit fairly discrete realities, inhabiting infobubbles inside fb/twitter/reddit and then reinforced by whichever media aligns with them out of fox/msnbc/breit/nyt and so on. Look at any event in the past year (or longer, but whatever) and the complete political divide on what they're seeing, masks votes cops etc. Leftists of course have our own circles of info, but at least we also have historical matterialism as a tool to help understand what's going on. But yes it will probably only become worse.

SMEGMA_MAIL
May 4, 2018


THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021






Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006



MysteriousStranger posted:

There's a dawning reality for them that the "working class" is socially conservative and will never join up no matter how many economic goodies they throw at them as long as women/lgbtq/minorities don't go under the bus. Conversely the middle class and wealthy that are strong on social issues won't tolerate socialism or leftist economics. So they either have to give up on economics or social issues, there is no way to get both. This is also why you get the sort of crazy accelerationalism into burning down the system where a leftist uptopia will rise in glorious revolution nonsense that animates a good portion of them. The problem is burning it all down won't do that, those two groups will still exist and then the only way out is one side is going to wipe out the other and you get the camps and the death squads.

To the degree that the category "working class" has meaning any more, I don't think it's really accurate to say that it is conservative or reactionary on the whole. There are elements of the white working class within certain regions that are reactionary, especially if they lack a college education, but the middle class is disappearing fast and a huge number of the people now living precarious lives are not white or are not really reactionary.

The post-left defines the working class with a caricature of like a 1960s dock worker or a miner in Kentucky, or like a white factory worker in Detroit and assumes a huge amount that is absolutely untrue.

kitten emergency
Jan 13, 2008

get meow dis wack-ass
crystal prison











thalweg posted:

It is, but also i dont think that's really a huge shift from where we are now. People already inhabit fairly discrete realities, inhabiting infobubbles inside fb/twitter/reddit and then reinforced by whichever media aligns with them out of fox/msnbc/breit/nyt and so on. Look at any event in the past year (or longer, but whatever) and the complete political divide on what they're seeing, masks votes cops etc. Leftists of course have our own circles of info, but at least we also have historical matterialism as a tool to help understand what's going on. But yes it will probably only become worse.

I mean, the only reason the info bubbles work is because there's a media ecosystem that's designed to funnel garbage into them like Gateway Pundit, Epoch Times, freedomeagle dot net poo poo. Those sites are running a business, not necessarily an ideological crusade (although I suppose there's a bit of column a, bit of column b thing going on here) and if they get purged from the mainstream internet or reduced to only being able to post into specific right wing platforms, then it's not going to be great for their sustainability.

Peanut President
Nov 5, 2008





MysteriousStranger posted:

There's a dawning reality for them that the "working class" is socially conservative and will never join up no matter how many economic goodies they throw at them as long as women/lgbtq/minorities don't go under the bus.

what

Peanut President
Nov 5, 2008





do you think that gays, women, and brown people can't be working class? who the gently caress do you think is the working class?

Juul-Whip
Mar 10, 2008



the boys haulin truckloads of whatever out in the tar patch are working class. the baristas who hand them their hot cuppa in the morning are PMC

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AnimeIsTrash
Jun 30, 2018
Probation
Can't post for 5 hours!


https://twitter.com/SamBraslow/status/1345916823951167488

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