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Kalli
Jun 2, 2001



Intruder posted:

I'm blown away that Calvin has been retired long enough :stare:

It's wild, he's the same age as Ted Ginn.

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Mystic Stylez
Dec 19, 2009

every time I read Ted Ginn's name I remember he was a key piece of the 15-1 Panthers and chuckle a little

nerve
Jan 2, 2011

SKA SUCKS
I am amazed Anquan Boldin, Chad Greenway and Mario Williams would even show up in a HoF discussion

They must have been better than I remember

wandler20
Nov 13, 2002

How many Championships?

nerve posted:

I am amazed Anquan Boldin, Chad Greenway and Mario Williams would even show up in a HoF discussion

They must have been better than I remember

Greenway was especially jarring to see.

Spring Break My Heart
Feb 15, 2012

Mystic Stylez posted:

every time I read Ted Ginn's name I remember he was a key piece of the 15-1 Panthers and chuckle a little
Him being injured in 2011 cost the 49ers the NFC Championship

Intruder
Mar 5, 2003

Spring Break My Heart posted:

Him being injured in 2011 cost the 49ers the NFC Championship

gently caress you for saying that was 2011 oh my god

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012


Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.



Wedge Regret
The Ginn burning Revis meme was like 2008 :corsair:

DariusLikewise
Oct 4, 2008

You wore that on Halloween?
Chad Greenway and Mario Williams have no shot at the Hall of Fame lol

Bolden might get through to a top 25 but I don't think he will get any further

Intruder
Mar 5, 2003

Mario had a solid 5-6 year stretch of being a Pretty Good DE

gloom
Feb 1, 2003
distracted from distraction by distraction
I didn't realize Leroy Butler had a legit HoF case, huh. I remember watching him in the 90s and knew he was pretty good, but not THAT good. It's hard to see him and Woodson getting in the same year. Do voters typically care about team distribution in a given class?

This year, I'd say for sure:
Peyton Manning
Charles Woodson (my all-time favorite player)
Alan Faneca
Torry Holt

Calvin Johnson also deserves it, not just because of his on-field accomplishments, which were awesome, but also for narrative reasons. He should be there next to Barry as exhibit 1B in why the Lions have been an awful franchise in this era. I think that's an important story for the hall to tell.

None of the linebackers or defensive linemen seem that compelling to me, but I wouldn't be surprised if any of them got in. Tony Boselli is an interesting case, he's on the extreme "peak" side of the peak vs. longevity debate. I value longevity (preparing my Frank Gore takes for a couple of years now), so I wouldn't put him in personally. Six years is really short and it seems like there are enough offensive linemen with comparable peaks that had a longer career, considering how selective the hall tends to be about offensive linemen. But I don't feel strongly about the issue, sure, put in more linemen, why not.

Prof. Crocodile
Jun 27, 2020

nerve posted:

I am amazed Anquan Boldin, Chad Greenway and Mario Williams would even show up in a HoF discussion

They must have been better than I remember

They weren't; trust your instincts.


Going with Manning, Woodson, and Faneca, because they were unarguably great for a long period of time. Flip a coin to choose which B***er. Then add either Boselli or Holt since someone who wore a Jaguars uniform has to eventually get into the HOF.

Lynch, Thomas, and Wayne are where they belong--on the ballot but not in the hall.

gohuskies
Oct 23, 2010

I spend a lot of time making posts to justify why I'm not a self centered shithead that just wants to act like COVID isn't a thing.

nerve posted:

I am amazed Anquan Boldin, Chad Greenway and Mario Williams would even show up in a HoF discussion

They must have been better than I remember

I mean no way they get in but they'll hit eligibility. The D line situation with Seymour and Allen currently being finalists and Wilfork and Ware coming (both of whom are legit contenders) is a lot more interesting.

gloom posted:

I didn't realize Leroy Butler had a legit HoF case, huh. I remember watching him in the 90s and knew he was pretty good, but not THAT good. It's hard to see him and Woodson getting in the same year. Do voters typically care about team distribution in a given class?

I don't know about team distribution but I think they do try to keep a balance of positions, but then they did two safeties last year with Polamalu and Steve Atwater so it happens. A lot of people say Butler was one of the first "modern" safeties who can play up in the box well with the LBs along with playing coverage. He also did the first Lambeau Leap and he's the only member of the 1990s all-decade team not in the hall.

gohuskies fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Jan 7, 2021

Mystic Stylez
Dec 19, 2009

put Megatron in, cowards

OperaMouse
Oct 30, 2010

gohuskies posted:

And next year the newly eligible guys will be Anquan Boldin, Chad Greenway, Andre Johnson, Mario Williams, Tony Romo, Robert Mathis, Steve Smith, Demarcus Ware, and Vince Wilfork. Some of those are clear "no"s but I see at least Steve Smith, Ware, and Wilfork all eventually getting in. The D line space is going to get crowded with Richard Seymour and Jared Allen already as finalists!

Romo will eventually get in as a contributor for his color commentary.

PupsOfWar
Dec 6, 2013

i think it's cool to vote for receivers that spent a good chunk of their career as a WR2

holt iirc pretty quickly surpassed isaac bruce as the WR1 for that team

so reggie wayne would get the WR2 vote

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009

So not to detract from the current class chat but the Willis stuff makes me wonder, is Kuechly a lock or a good chance or will he have to wait for a down year? He only played 8 years but managed DROTY, DPOTY (youngest in history), 5 time all pro, 2 time 2nd team All pro, 7 time pro bowler, had HUGE impact in the super bowl run, x2 tackle leader, won butkus awards and sportsmanship awards etc etc.

Their resume's are kind of similar.

Does Luke miss out because of longevity? He burned quick, but gently caress did he burn bright.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

BlindSite posted:

So not to detract from the current class chat but the Willis stuff makes me wonder, is Kuechly a lock or a good chance or will he have to wait for a down year? He only played 8 years but managed DROTY, DPOTY (youngest in history), 5 time all pro, 2 time 2nd team All pro, 7 time pro bowler, had HUGE impact in the super bowl run, x2 tackle leader, won butkus awards and sportsmanship awards etc etc.

Their resume's are kind of similar.

Does Luke miss out because of longevity? He burned quick, but gently caress did he burn bright.

Kuechly and Willis should both be locks, and I'm kinda stunned that Willis didn't even make the final ballot this year.

I don't know if this is a real judgment on their talents, or just a reaction to off-ball ILBs falling out of favor in recent years. Zach Thomas can't get any momentum for probably the same reasons.

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012


Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.



Wedge Regret
Just to throw some commentary and stuff on these guys, some of which I may just copy from what I said last year:

Jared Allen, Defensive End: Bunch of Pro Bowls and All-Pros, came close to breaking the sack record in 2011, and well remembered as a colorful guy in a good way. That said, I think he'll struggle to get votes against other players with stronger statistical arguments at their positions, so I think he'll be on the ballot for a few years. If Mayne Event segments were a consideration, he'd be in first ballot both for the legendary throwing gif, as well as the one with him rocking the jorts and Canadian tuxedo to help Brett Favre sell Wranglers.

Ronde Barber, Defensive Back: Ronde has sneakily become a pretty good color commentator over the last few years, which may help his case. On the field, he's got an extremely solid list, including being 4th all time for non-offensive touchdowns with 14 (Behind Hester, Deion Sanders, and Rod Woodson), and being a key part of the early 00's Buccaneers. He's been eligible for a few years now but this is his first time making it as a finalist, in a year where the Super Bowl is in Tampa Bay...

Tony Boselli, Tackle: To basically update what I said about him last year, the whole peak vs longevity argument is well documented, but support to get him in has grown a lot over recent years to the point I'd almost call it universal now. I don't know if it's enough to get him in over other players, but it's his 5th year on the final ballot, so maybe they'll finally get him in. If he isn't voted in this year, I wouldn't be too upset, but it depends on who gets in over him.

LeRoy Butler, Safety: Last year, I said that Butler always struck me as really good, but never among the best in the NFL. He invented the Lambeau Leap (Although Robert Brooks is the one who popularized it), was a key cog on the mid-90's Packers, and his career has gotten more appreciation in recent years as safety play has become more recognized in general. He really didn't stand a chance last year, since he was going up against Troy Polamalu, and I suspect that Charles Woodson's Packers/DB connection may get him bumped again this year. Of the three defensive backs on this year's list, I'd still have him third.

Alan Faneca, Guard: I said last year that Faneca wasn't getting in ahead of Steve Hutchinson, who did get selected. He's the only offensive lineman this year and it's his 6th time as a finalist, so I wouldn't be surprised if this is his chance. He was excellent and everyone agrees he should get in at some point, so why not this year.

Torry Holt, Wide Receiver: I wondered last year if him and Isaac Bruce being on the same ballot might keep one or both out. Bruce got in, but now Holt has to contend with two other receivers in Megatron and Reggie Wayne, both of whom are on the ballot for the first time while this is Holt's second trip. Holt was awesome for a good eight or nine years, even as the Rams fell apart in the mid-00's, and has a ring, so he has a great chance on paper, having two other receivers on the ballot and the voters generally poor recording when it comes to handling receivers makes me wonder if he'll have to wait more...

Calvin Johnson, Wide Receiver: Nobody who saw Megatron play would question him getting in this year... but voters are stupid and have a long history of making receivers wait to get in, so I have zero faith in them doing the right thing. Johnson lead the NFL in receiving touchdowns while playing for a team that went 0-16, was one of the most dominant players at his position I've ever seen, and still retired before turning 31. I really, really hope he gets in this year.

John Lynch, Safety: I'll copy what Benne said last year, as it still feels relevant: "He has a lot of the same problems Atwater does, in that he's been on the ballot forever and you gotta clear out this safety logjam sooner than later, so make up your minds already. What gives Lynch the upper hand over Atwater is his work as GM of the 49ers, who are currently well-positioned to make a Super Bowl run. I thought he would've eventually gotten in even if his GM career didn't happen, but that certainly bolstered his resume." The problem Lynch faces with voters is that Atwater got in last year, and Woodson is going to occupy a DB slot this year. Would they put in another in the same class? I'm not sure, while his role in San Francisco will keep him in the popular football conscious for a while to come. I suspect he doesn't get in this year.

Peyton Manning, Quarterback: :manning: 100% lock.

Clay Matthews Jr., Linebacker: This is one of the ultimate longevity arguments, combined with a well known football family name. He played for 19 seasons, 16 of them in Cleveland. He doesn't have the Pro Bowls or All Pro nods you'd suspect for an all timer, and since he was in AFC, he wasn't fighting against Lawrence Taylor for the former every year like so many other players were in the 80's and early 90's. He's a guy who was known for playing a long time and being pretty good, but I can't really recall people talking about him in the same breath as other truly great players. I'm a Big Hall guy, and I wouldn't pick him over any of the other finalists this year. He seems more like the sort of guy who should get in as a Senior candidate.

Sam Mills, Linebacker: Basically just gonna paste what I said last year: Mills was a 5'9" inside linebacker who came out of the USFL, and was pretty much the heart and soul of every defense he was ever a part of. He's universally respected by those who played with and against him. The weakness of his case was he spent his peak in the USFL, then with the Dome Patrol Saints and expansion Panthers. The linebacking corps that he anchored was one of the greatest of all time, sending all four players to the Pro Bowl in 1992. But, the knock here was those Saints never won a playoff game, were pretty meh outside those linebackers, and never got much national attention. He spent a few years with the expansion Panthers, getting his only All-Pro nod, but still not being as well known nationally. He absolutely should have been inducted a while ago.

Richard Seymour, Defensive Lineman: Same thing, what I said last year: On one hand, gently caress the Patriots. On the other, he broke Ben Roethlisberger's nose. I'm conflicted. He's probably worthy, and the voters likely love them some :patssay:, so he'll always have a solid chance.

Zach Thomas, Linebacker: Again, basically the same: Thomas spent most of his career on some really good defenses for some not fully terrible, but not really good Dolphins teams. He was really good, but also played in the AFC at the same time as Ray Lewis, and with Urlacher in the NFC, he likely missed out on some Pro Bowl or All-Pro recognition despite being just as worthy but lacking name and team recognition (Also getting similarly inflated tackle numbers). I think he deserves to get in, but I wonder if he's another guy who will have to wait a bit longer...

Reggie Wayne, Wide Receiver: I'll preface everything by saying Reggie was one of my favorite players and one of the few actual jerseys that I own. He's still Top 10 in receptions and yards (I forget exactly where he ranked when he retired). He was Peyton's favorite target his last five years in Indianapolis, then spent a year and a half doing the same with Andrew Luck, in a new system where Wayne was used in different ways, before tearing his ACL at 35. He came back for a final season with the Colts and then spent like a week in the Patriots training camp before retiring. He'll get some benefit for playing with Manning, Marvin Harrison, and last year's inductee Edgerrin James, with some of his best seasons coming after Edge left and when Harrison was either injured or gone. Voters may also give him some benefit for the sort of 'played the right way' bullshit they tend to love, in that Reggie was not hugely outspoken or prone to excessive celebrations. He did talk and dance after some touchdowns, but it wasn't the sort of stuff that grabbed national headlines. As much as I love him, and I think it'd be cool if he went in the same year as Peyton, I wouldn't put him in ahead of Megatron. I think he gets in fairly soon.

Charles Woodson, Defensive Back: A close to a 100% lock as a non-QB can be.

What I'd Like to See:
Alan Faneca
Calvin Johnson
Peyton Manning
Sam Mills
Charles Woodson

What I Think We'll Get:
Ronde Barber
Alan Faneca
Calvin Johnson
Peyton Manning
Charles Woodson

PupsOfWar posted:

i think it's cool to vote for receivers that spent a good chunk of their career as a WR2

holt iirc pretty quickly surpassed isaac bruce as the WR1 for that team

so reggie wayne would get the WR2 vote

Reggie was the WR2 early in his career, but fairly quickly it become a #1 & #1A with him and Marvin Harrison. The thing the Colts did during those years was Marvin Harrison lined up on the right side of the field something like 95% of the time and rarely was motioned or anywhere else. Wayne was wide on the left side of the field in the same manner, rarely motioned or moved, while they used other guys inside (Brandon Stokley, Anthony Gonzalez, later Austin Collie, or often Dallas Clark flexed). Marvin got hurt in 2007 and Reggie became the defacto main receiver at that point, and would remain in that role through the rest of Peyton's time and into Luck's tenure until Reggie got hurt in 2013, after which T.Y. Hilton became their leading receiver. It's worth noting that when Bruce Arians became the OC in 2012, he started using Reggie a ton more inside, similar to how Arians used Hines Ward in Pittsburgh and would later use Larry Fitzgerald in Arizona. Wayne wasn't as renowned as a blocking receiver as either of those two guys, but I remember Arians and teammates saying he was good in the role, and the Colts would keep doing so during his last years with the team.

Benne posted:

Kuechly and Willis should both be locks, and I'm kinda stunned that Willis didn't even make the final ballot this year.

I don't know if this is a real judgment on their talents, or just a reaction to off-ball ILBs falling out of favor in recent years. Zach Thomas can't get any momentum for probably the same reasons.

:same: I suspect Willis' case will be hindered by him being hurt most of his final season (He only played 6 games) and then retiring at 29. I'd honestly forgotten he'd be eligible until it was brought up here. I hate to say his legacy faded kinda quickly, but that may be because of how much other insanity happened to the 49ers in those years, particularly off the field stuff that basically obscures some of their on the field stuff from when Willis played. FWIW, he was one of the 25 semifinalists announced in November, so maybe he'll get more consideration in the future...

Paint Crop Pro
Mar 22, 2007

Find someone who values you like Rick Spielman values 7th round picks.



I for one am eagerly awaiting Jared Allen's Hof speech.

Also his bust better have the mullet with full racing stripes.

(For those who don't remember he would put a racing stripe in for each sack he got during the year.)

gohuskies
Oct 23, 2010

I spend a lot of time making posts to justify why I'm not a self centered shithead that just wants to act like COVID isn't a thing.
It's only now I realize the good news that Hines Ward was snubbed by not being chosen as a finalist yet again this year. I was really worried that he was going to get serious consideration based on being a famous Steeler, a "tough guy" who blocked and etc, while not actually being very good. Sometimes the simple blessings feel the best.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

gohuskies posted:

It's only now I realize the good news that Hines Ward was snubbed by not being chosen as a finalist yet again this year. I was really worried that he was going to get serious consideration based on being a famous Steeler, a "tough guy" who blocked and etc, while not actually being very good. Sometimes the simple blessings feel the best.

Hines Ward has been eligible since 2017 and never even sniffed the final ballot yet. People have always been a bit concern-trolling about him skating into the HOF by Steelers proxy; he's a Hall of Very Good guy and the voters clearly see him as such.

wandler20
Nov 13, 2002

How many Championships?
Put Ronde in!

https://twitter.com/nflthrowback/status/1351544955156787207?s=19

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose
Wayne
Woodson
Johnson
Lynch
Manning

PupsOfWar
Dec 6, 2013

Put ricky williams in the Hall you cowards

Ornery and Hornery
Oct 22, 2020

How the gently caress did megatron only make three 1st-team All-Pros?

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012


Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.



Wedge Regret

Ornery and Hornery posted:

How the gently caress did megatron only make three 1st-team All-Pros?

His other years are very good but not statistically mind blowing, while other receivers had great years. In 2008 for example, when he had over 1,300 yards and 12 TD, he didn’t even make the Pro Bowl while they two All-Pro guys, Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald, both had more yards and a lot more catches. His last year, 2015, he finished 10th in yardage with 1,214 and had 9 TDs, but Antonio Brown and Julio Jones both had 136 catches and 1,800+ yards.

Prof. Crocodile
Jun 27, 2020

fartknocker posted:

His other years are very good but not statistically mind blowing, while other receivers had great years. In 2008 for example, when he had over 1,300 yards and 12 TD, he didn’t even make the Pro Bowl while they two All-Pro guys, Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald, both had more yards and a lot more catches. His last year, 2015, he finished 10th in yardage with 1,214 and had 9 TDs, but Antonio Brown and Julio Jones both had 136 catches and 1,800+ yards.

The more you think about Megatron, the less likely he seems to go into the HOF. The memory of his highlight reel fades every year, and his numbers really don’t stand out from the other great receivers on the ballot.

gohuskies
Oct 23, 2010

I spend a lot of time making posts to justify why I'm not a self centered shithead that just wants to act like COVID isn't a thing.
Mike Tanier did an interview with five Hall of Fame voters about what they expect to happen - https://www.profootballnetwork.com/could-calvin-johnson-be-snubbed-hall-of-fame-voters-discuss-finalists/

They suggest Calvin Johnson might not get in this year (though they expect him to eventually) and they seem surprisingly bullish on John Lynch. Faneca sounds like a near-lock.

Mystic Stylez
Dec 19, 2009

gohuskies posted:

Mike Tanier did an interview with five Hall of Fame voters about what they expect to happen - https://www.profootballnetwork.com/could-calvin-johnson-be-snubbed-hall-of-fame-voters-discuss-finalists/

They suggest Calvin Johnson might not get in this year (though they expect him to eventually) and they seem surprisingly bullish on John Lynch. Faneca sounds like a near-lock.

Article posted:

"I don’t think Holt’s a Hall of Famer. He belongs in the 'Hall of Very Good'."

the hell

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012


Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.



Wedge Regret

A lot of the voters are really, really loving stupid.

PupsOfWar
Dec 6, 2013

Prof. Crocodile posted:

The more you think about Megatron, the less likely he seems to go into the HOF. The memory of his highlight reel fades every year, and his numbers really don’t stand out from the other great receivers on the ballot.

megatron's HoF case is entirely contingent on the eye test

if you watched him play much at all you're like "jesus christ this guy is one of the best athletes I've ever seen in professional sports, he's a hall-of-famer for sure", whereas his 'on paper' case is not as strong

I think he was certainly the most ~feared receiver in the league even when he overlapped with guys like jones or fitzgerald having bigger years.


I think torry holt suffers from a lack of explosive highlight-real factor, kind of the inverse of megatron
plus too many of his good years were in the bulger era

probably his historical significance (WR1 on one of the most influential offenses in league history, crowned with a super bowl win) is sufficient to get in eventually

but like...i watched him put up big numbers in a number of big games but only really remember a handful of plays he made
the HoF is ultimately a promotional organ, it rewards flash

PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jan 20, 2021

wyoak
Feb 14, 2005

a glass case of emotion

Fallen Rib
Bruce was WR1 for the really good Rams teams wasn’t he?

Although it was like 1a 1b on those teams

PupsOfWar
Dec 6, 2013

wyoak posted:

Bruce was WR1 for the really good Rams teams wasn’t he?

Although it was like 1a 1b on those teams

holt overtook him pretty quick

by the time of their super bowl holt was getting more targets, certainly

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012


Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.



Wedge Regret
Remember that Holt was a rookie in ‘99 when they won the Super Bowl while Bruce had been around for a bit. He had like 800~ yards as a rookie and then blew up with a bunch of 1,300+ yard seasons in a row, with a couple over 1,600 in there as well.

PupsOfWar
Dec 6, 2013

wait I had the Rams' super bowl year mixed up with the Ravens super bowl year

thought the rams took it in '00

Ornery and Hornery
Oct 22, 2020

Prof. Crocodile posted:

The more you think about Megatron, the less likely he seems to go into the HOF. The memory of his highlight reel fades every year, and his numbers really don’t stand out from the other great receivers on the ballot.

Seem pretty good to me.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnCa00.htm

Lol, just lol at the amount of triple coverages in this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq51oSJP_SA

D-LINK
Oct 1, 2007

I was talking to peachy Peach about kissy Kiss. He bought me a soda.

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Wayne
Woodson
Johnson
Lynch
Manning

Faneca has 8 all-pros (six 1st team). It is bizarre that he is still waiting

Mystic Stylez
Dec 19, 2009

Alan Faneca
Calvin Johnson
Charles Woodson
Peyton Manning
Torry Holt

TheBizzness
Oct 5, 2004

Reign on me.
Peyton
Ronde
Faneca
Wayne
Woodson

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Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN
https://twitter.com/PGutierrezESPN/status/1358220404243001344

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