|
Not shooters, but Secret of Mana and Secret of Evermore had them in the early to mid 90s. They never even spread to other RPGs, though.
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2021 16:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 12:41 |
|
|
PizzaProwler posted:'Perfect Dark' had one in 2000. e: idhrendur posted:Not shooters, but Secret of Mana and Secret of Evermore had them in the early to mid 90s. They never even spread to other RPGs, though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2021 17:41
|
|
|
It's amazing how many genre changing things halo did mechanically that were great. And then the campaign itself was absolute trash that required the devs to literally paint arrows on the ground because the player was still going to get lost.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2021 17:46
|
|
|
Yup, played this with my college roommate's on their xbox. Either watching them play and enjoying the light show and heckling them, or playing myself and burning up hours I should have spent doing homework. Lots of good memories wasting time shooting the poo poo while zapping aliens and grousing about the long-rear end rooms later in the game. I have to say I disagree with the description that the original graphics are bad, because in their time they were really good. At least, I remember being quite impressed by them and enjoyed the spectacle quite a bit. The modern remasters of course look really nice especially compared to the original, but the original graphics were no slouch and I relish the nostalgia of seeing them. Since they're there and available, spend a little more time with the old graphics and let us really see how well they did back then and how much things have changed for today. I have a soft spot and an odd relationship with a lot of these mid-2000's console games, because I never owned a console myself but my friends did so I spent a lot of time hanging out with them and playing with their systems. Played through Fallout 3 like that, Halo 1&2, I think I tried out morrowwind that way. Call of Duty, which is a fun memory because my buddy and I had planned on doing this 3-day hiking trip but we got smoked out by a nearby forest fire so we bailed early and spent the rest of the weekend playing CoD co-op on his playstation. Good times them days.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2021 17:52
|
|
|
FoolyCharged posted:It's amazing how many genre changing things halo did mechanically that were great. And then the campaign itself was absolute trash that required the devs to literally paint arrows on the ground because the player was still going to get lost. We noticed them arrows and I think we had some joke along the lines of "hey look, directions for idiots!" and "well, you are an idiot" so they were fun. Being able to actually get lost in a space that wasn't intentionally trying to misdirect you (maze levels in say doom/marathon) was new-ish. I have a hard time thinking of another shooter at or before that time that had big open spaces like Halo did that you could actually get turned around in.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2021 17:56
|
|
|
 02 - Halo With our feet on solid ground(?) we round up other human survivors so we can keep fighting the Covenant. I wasn't going to post this until later this afternoon, but you guys are so active this morning I might as well do it now.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2021 18:17
|
|
|
Simply Simon posted:Lots of words This is great because so much of it exactly mirrors my experiences. Even down to not knowing what "The Pillar of Autumn" was and not realizing the inside of the ring was habitable. And yeah the MCC is broken in a bunch of ways. It's actually waaaayyyyy better than it was when it originally launched on Xbone. PizzaProwler posted:'Perfect Dark' had one in 2000. Holy poo poo, I love this game and it didn't even cross my mind when I thought of weapon wheels. El Spamo posted:We noticed them arrows and I think we had some joke along the lines of "hey look, directions for idiots!" and "well, you are an idiot" so they were fun. Being able to actually get lost in a space that wasn't intentionally trying to misdirect you (maze levels in say doom/marathon) was new-ish. I have a hard time thinking of another shooter at or before that time that had big open spaces like Halo did that you could actually get turned around in. The map design definitely has some issues, especially indoor environments. We will be talking about that a bit later when it becomes more relevant. I know I would totally get lost in a couple of Perfect Dark levels, like the Area 51 ones. El Spamo posted:The modern remasters of course look really nice especially compared to the original, but the original graphics were no slouch and I relish the nostalgia of seeing them. Since they're there and available, spend a little more time with the old graphics and let us really see how well they did back then and how much things have changed for today. So I will show off the original graphics in every video, but they're static showcases. Maybe I'll think about a bonus video showing some actual action in the original graphics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2021 18:24
|
|
|
FrenzyTheKillbot posted:This is great because so much of it exactly mirrors my experiences. Even down to not knowing what "The Pillar of Autumn" was and not realizing the inside of the ring was habitable. For this level, I got lost very hard a lot and teleported everywhere after my buddy. It had been a while for him so he also got lost, but not quite as hard as me. We both found our way a lot better on the recent replay. My biggest "oh, okay" moment was actually in the bridge room, though. For anyone not aware, co-op on the XBox was of course split screen on a CRT, so you had half a comparatively tiny screen to work with, that didn't help at all, and so very often I was just huuuuh???-ing around and my buddy ticked off the objectives. In said bridge room, I had absolutely no clue what was happening, and looking at his screen helped very little. On the replay, I actually found the ramp first and hit the button, that made me a little proud, haha. I do think that it's moments like this however that show how Halo bridges old-school and newer FPSs: in Doom, Unreal etc., there's a fuckload of buttons. Just, go somewhere, hit a button, then you can continue. And finding that button, and often what the button does is part of the game. You're supposed to just explore the level and click on things that look suspicious, that can be a puzzle, or a challenge (button hidden behind enemies), or a way to gate level segments (door hides tougher enemies), but the buttons are ubiquitous. So sometimes, Halo does buttons. But because that's actually rather rare, you often don't realize that you need a button. The environments do look great, even on the original graphics as you showed. They had a very good designer for that, everything fits well together, has a defined aesthetic. Problem: the buttons blend into that. You do have that hologram of course, but there's a lot of shiny decoration. It's not super obvious. And the same goes for the ramp up to the button. It's just somewhere on the side. The room also has a left side, but there's no ramp there (or maybe there is, with goodies on top?!) - it's just very clunky, imo. There's no indication that the ramp even exists, it's behind scenery. Stuff like this is where Halo's level design fails in its awkward middle ground. Speaking of goodies: you mentioned the even then anachronistic feeling powerups. Also something that feels tacked on because it was the style at the time, and they weren't quite confident in their ability to make an entirely new kind of FPS to let go. Like the buttons, there's barely any. They'll get quietly dropped as the series progresses, and that's for the best. Random thoughts: - the Needler has a great niche on Legendary, because if you manage to fill an Elite with needles, it's fucken dead, no matter the shield status. IF, because they're jumpy motherfuckers, but it's still a great thing to have when there's This One Fucker Around The Corner. Btw, are you going to show the higher difficulties, or can/should we talk in the thread about it? I think they did those really well and there's lots to analyze. - it's tough to show but the Warthog controls like garbage imo. Not so much the driving itself or the ridiculous physics, I think especially the latter are wonderful, it's a perfect video game fun having vehicle, but how you actually steer. For anyone not in the know, it drives where the camera points. There's no steering with the left stick, you control left and right entirely with the right, and on MCC, with the mouse. This means that you cannot ever take a look around you while driving - someone shoots you from behind, and you'd like to know who, or how many? No dice, you'll veer wildly out of control. I got kind of good at it because I was designated driver (buddy was and is a way better shot, I'm actually garbage at FPSs), but it's still the weirdest thing, completely different from how any other modern videogame vehicles drive. It actually makes a lot of sense when you're driving Ghosts, mind, because of the front-facing cannon, but it's absurd for the Warthog. - if the Master Chief took one of the last lifeboats off the Pillar of Autumn, how are more arriving after his crashed? - it took me quite a while to piece together that Cortana piloted the PoA until she got put into MC's head, only then did her "I disabled the Covenant ship" make sense, I thought she was, like, hacking or something. Nope! Giant ship cannons!
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2021 19:54
|
|
|
Simply Simon posted:
I assumed Cortana meant "there's one pod left in this area" rather than "there's one pod left on the entire ship". e: Also, last to leave doesn't always mean last to arrive. Ablative fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Jan 15, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2021 20:12
|
|
|
Good news, soldier! We made it!
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2021 21:03
|
|
|
I will say this - the designs of the vehicles in this game were en pointe.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2021 22:07
|
|
|
I've always adored the behavior of AI characters in games like this, and the marines are no exception. Even their interactions with each other - they'll complain about kill-steals (usually to you), and they'll bitch about incidental friendly fire, and will even apologize for it! And they just love watching the Chief work. They'll compliment headshots, gleefully celebrate good grenade kills, and will move to double-tap downed covenant after a fight, just to make sure they're not faking it. Or maybe just vent some extra aggression into their corpse. They will also either compliment or complain about running Covenant over with the Warthog - some of them find making Covenant Road Pizza to be great fun, others whine that it's more fun shootin' 'em. Marines aren't overly helpful in a big pitched fight, but they're not helpless either. Marines can generally take down Grunts without issue - and while they might struggle against Jackals, in my experience, some of them get pretty frag-happy with grenades, which counters the shield nicely. It's Elites they don't fare so well against. However, this all hinges on Marines using the bog-standard Assault Rifle. If you find a marine wielding a Sniper Rifle, treasure that boy and do everything you can to take him with you. Those guys can snipe out the biggest of Covenant Ground Forces with very little effort. It might take a few shots to hit the sweet spot, but unlike you, they're not restricted by a limited number of shots. They still need to reload, but they have unlimited reserve ammo.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2021 01:19
|
|
|
How unevenly matched are the two sides? The Covenant seem to have superior technology and greater numbers.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2021 03:10
|
|
|
The humans are hopelessly outgunned and outmanned. MC and friends are basically fighting a guerilla war at this point. That said covenant tech isn't strictly superior. In general covenant weapons are stronger against shields, but human weapons rip through unshielded flesh. For example the pistols and their one two punch to take out elites.(charge plasma shot will drop shields instantly but isnt great after that, and the pistol one shots them with a headshot but has trouble getting through the shield. By their powers combined even the toughest elite variants go down to a measly two bullets.)
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2021 03:17
|
|
|
FrenzyTheKillbot posted:I'd be interested to hear your thoughts after the next video. I think that level does a way better job of showing what made Halo stand out. What you said about the vehicles and level design makes some sense from a technical level and breaking new ground. The other smash hit FPS around time was Half-Life, which had an entirely different narrative and gameplay structure compared to every other FPS. And infinite modability I'm not a big FPS guy, so a lot of stuff looks the same to me. The shooting aspects don't seem particulary different than other games. Tho the Needler is cool looking
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2021 04:09
|
|
|
FoolyCharged posted:The humans are hopelessly outgunned and outmanned. MC and friends are basically fighting a guerilla war at this point. Is Humanity better at technological advancement? Humans doing better at improving technology, or just more creative and unpredictable, than a more advanced enemy is a common trope.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2021 04:19
|
|
|
FoolyCharged posted:The humans are hopelessly outgunned and outmanned. MC and friends are basically fighting a guerilla war at this point. I always got a kick out of how the humans have FTL drives and AI and all kinds of super-technology, but their weapons systems are all poo poo that existed in like the 1990s. It's obviously a gameplay concession- it helps distinguish the human and alien factions, and lets the alien ray guns "seem" more advanced, even if they're fairly balanced in gameplay terms. But yeah, if the Covenant weapons are truly meant to be plasma-based, then getting hit by a plasma rifle shot should be like standing in the flame of a giant cutting torch. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2021 04:57
|
|
|
This level really made the case for what made Halo great. I haven't tended to play many modern shooters. I did a lot of Doom clones back in the day (or at least the free parts from when shareware was the business model), and was really into Half-Life, but I'm not too clear on how it all evolved. In any case, if I'm remembering the eras right, that is indeed very early for wide open environments, seamless vehicles, etc. I've gone and flipped from skeptical and just assuming everyone liked it because they didn't have access to the superior PC shooters (yeah, totally ran with the dumb PC master race attitude for years) to recognizing just how innovative and impressive this was/is.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2021 05:11
|
|
|
EggsAisle posted:I always got a kick out of how the humans have FTL drives and AI and all kinds of super-technology, but their weapons systems are all poo poo that existed in like the 1990s. It's obviously a gameplay concession- it helps distinguish the human and alien factions, and lets the alien ray guns "seem" more advanced, even if they're fairly balanced in gameplay terms. But yeah, if the Covenant weapons are truly meant to be plasma-based, then getting hit by a plasma rifle shot should be like standing in the flame of a giant cutting torch. To be fair, hurling small pieces of metal at supersonic speeds is a pretty efficient way of doing serious damage to living beings, and if it's not broke, there's not really a good reason to fix it. We'd need two reasons to seriously change the kinds of weapons we're using (which, over the last 70 years, have changed in the internals and the bullet calibres but haven't really changed in terms of what they do) - either they would have to provide a sufficient tactical advantage in combat, or they'd have to provide a sufficient strategic advantage in terms of logistics and training - where sufficient is based on the cost of replacing one's current stock of weaponry with the new technology. The main reason that the AR-15 is still the primary assault rifle of the US army is that nothing that has been made in the 70 years since has been sufficiently better to justify the cost of replacing them - in spite of a number of weapons trials over the years. In the west, we replaced bolt action and semi-automatic rifles with fully automatic rifles because miniaturisation made it feasible and because fully automatic fire is a huge tactical advantage at the closer ranges we were seeing towards the end of the second world war. We replaced wood and metal with polymer in both rifles and handguns because it made production cheaper. We went for smaller rounds because they were lighter, providing a logistical advantage. We went with double stack magazines because having more ammunition in the firearm is a good thing. All of these things were done because they either provided a huge tactical advantage or because they made logistics easier. The most recent attempt to significantly update the assault rifle was an attempt to make a rifle where a two or three round burst can be fired such that the final round leaves the barrel before the recoil from the first round has been felt - thus increasing accuracy. This is where the AN-94 and H&K G11 came from. Neither was really adopted by the militaries they were designed for (Russian and US, respectively) because they were too complex for ease of field maintenance, and didn't provide sufficient advantage over what they already had. In terms of more advanced weaponry, railguns and lasers are worth considering for naval vessels which engage (and are most commonly engaged by) targets well over the horizon, so a railgun can potentially fire a lighter projectile a similar distance using velocity to generate force while lasers aimed by computers might be useful for taking out incoming ordinance. At those distances, if you overpenetrate then you're probably going to do so below the water line, and thus you haven't really wasted any of that energy. Such weapons will be more complex to repair and maintain than traditional gunpowder weapons, but a ship will have dedicated engineers. At the personal scale, a weapon needs to be decently reliable, decently accurate to the expected engagement range (it doesn't matter how accurate the weapon is a mile out if you're only engaging people at a hundred yards), light enough to carry both it and its ammunition comfortably, rugged enough to handle the rigours of combat, and simple enough to repair the most common kinds of malfunction in the middle of a firefight. In addition, overpenetration is more of a problem partially because it doesn't matter how much energy the projectile carries if not enough of it is imparted to the target, and partially because there's more likely to be something behind the target that you might not want to hit. So yeah; we might well be using gunpowder (or similar) weapons on the personal scale for almost as long as we used bows and spears before them, regardless of how far we advance in other areas, for no other reason than because nothing else is better enough to replace them. The materials used in the cartridges may change, as may the propellant, but until a more advanced form of personal weapon comes out that makes modern rifles obsolete in the same way that platforms like the AK-47 and the AR15 made bolt action battle rifles obsolete, there's very little chance of that basic design being abandoned. Infodump ends.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2021 07:11
|
|
|
I think this classic vid makes your point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjlCVW_ouL8
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2021 10:26
|
|
|
Ablative posted:I assumed Cortana meant "there's one pod left in this area" rather than "there's one pod left on the entire ship". Yeah, I'm thinking some lifeboats took a more circuitous route down, maybe if they launched from the other side of the Autumn. Although the real answer is probably just "narrative causality". White Coke posted:How unevenly matched are the two sides? The Covenant seem to have superior technology and greater numbers. White Coke posted:Is Humanity better at technological advancement? Humans doing better at improving technology, or just more creative and unpredictable, than a more advanced enemy is a common trope. In general, humans are able to hold their own and often actually win ground engagements, especially if they have Spartans. As others have said, it turns out conventional weaponry is still drat good at killing things no matter how advanced they are. However in space battles, Covenant just destroy humans, which is why they rarely engage on the ground. The math is something like 3 or 4 human ships to every Covenant ship for them to have a chance to win (with heavy losses). Of course, the opening cutscene shows that having an AI as smart as Cortana running your fire control can give you a pretty big edge. There is also some stuff about humanity being good at adaptation. For example the Master Chief's shields only exist because they copied the Elites technology, and his are better. The reason for it isn't exactly "humans are special" though, but I don't want to get into it because we don't know enough yet. Nissin Cup Nudist posted:What you said about the vehicles and level design makes some sense from a technical level and breaking new ground. The other smash hit FPS around time was Half-Life, which had an entirely different narrative and gameplay structure compared to every other FPS. And infinite modability Yeah Half-Life is definitely a big one. Their whole story-telling thing where you never lose control of the character (except being knocked out once) so the whole game is essentially an entirely unbroken narrative is super impressive. Typing that I realized that it's the exact same approach that the movie 1917 took too, which was also very impressive. Also, there's a Half-Life "megathread" going on right now where Blastinus is planning on showing off every Half-Life sequel/derivative. Check it out if you want to see another huge influential franchise. As well, one of the things about FPS games that's hard to quantify is how the shooting "feels". All the Bungie Halo games, and Destiny games after, the shooting just feels really good, but again I can't really say why.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2021 15:38
|
|
|
FrenzyTheKillbot posted:There is also some stuff about humanity being good at adaptation. For example the Master Chief's shields only exist because they copied the Elites technology, and his are better. The reason for it isn't exactly "humans are special" though, but I don't want to get into it because we don't know enough yet. Is it because the Elites are bigger than the Spartans so the shield has to be stretched over a larger frame?
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2021 20:30
|
|
|
Simply Simon posted:- it's very easy to get lost, the game imo has massive issues with player guidance I never had much trouble navigating as a kid, but on replaying the first level with the Master Chief Collection a couple months back, I somehow got stuck in the hallways immediately before the escape pod at the end of the level for like fifteen minutes because they all look the same and there's no indication where the still-docked pod even is. White Coke posted:Is it because the Elites are bigger than the Spartans so the shield has to be stretched over a larger frame? To my knowledge it's related to the reason you can't reload Covenant energy weapons in the field, is all I'll say for now.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2021 04:35
|
|
|
Kadorhal posted:To my knowledge it's related to the reason you can't reload Covenant energy weapons in the field, is all I'll say for now. They never invented changeable batteries.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2021 09:30
|
|
|
If nothing else, a technologically inferior enemy has the advantage of being able to reverse engineer their enemies' superior technology to close the gap.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2021 04:20
|
|
|
White Coke posted:If nothing else, a technologically inferior enemy has the advantage of being able to reverse engineer their enemies' superior technology to close the gap. I might call that a "silver lining" more than an "advantage". And you'd have to do so pretty quickly when that technologically superior enemy is trying to do a full genocide/xenocide.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2021 15:55
|
|
|
Kadorhal posted:I never had much trouble navigating as a kid, but on replaying the first level with the Master Chief Collection a couple months back, I somehow got stuck in the hallways immediately before the escape pod at the end of the level for like fifteen minutes because they all look the same and there's no indication where the still-docked pod even is.  As for the "we vs. aliens" debate, I think it's a running theme in many sci-fi settings like this that the aliens are constantly underestimating humans. The Covenant especially have united all of these alien races under a banner of shared fanaticism, they probably are used to other species either becoming assimilated or getting steamrolled out of existence. The humans of Halo at least say "no we won't" at a level of fierceness and tenacity that the Covenant are completely unused to, and that seems to be the one thing allowing the humans to hold their own. The Covenant think "oh they would have to sacrifice four of their ships to take down even one of hours, surely they won't" and the humans go OOH-RAH and do just that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2021 19:43
|
|
|
Simply Simon posted:
From what little I know of Halo's setting, I wouldn't be surprised if there's also a lot of "Oh they're religious, of course they're stupid and we're smarter than them."
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2021 19:45
|
|
|
Simply Simon posted:
It's worth noting that the Elites develop enough respect for humanity as warriors that a lot of them are actively confused as to why the humans were never given a chance to join the Covenant, and why it's straight to "EXTERMINATE THEM" from the Covenant Leadership.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2021 21:29
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:From what little I know of Halo's setting, I wouldn't be surprised if there's also a lot of "Oh they're religious, of course they're stupid and we're smarter than them." Its not just that, its also the covenant leadership are prideful as all gently caress and have their heads stuck several miles up their own asses, hopped up on their own self importance. This will all be shown after Halo 1, however.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2021 22:18
|
|
|
Yeah I know some more definite answers from what I picked up of the Halo 2 story, but I'm keeping to what we know already to avoid spoilers.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2021 22:42
|
|
|
 03 - Truth and Reconciliation A dangerous mission, in unfamiliar territory, to rescue the Captain.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 20:20
|
|
|
I will say, Keyes himself does use standard Marine AI during that last segment, and AI in Halo 1 absolutely hammers on the Needler when they get in combat, so it's entirely possible you're simply having trouble getting Keyes actually into the combat. But if you position yourself poorly, you can honestly get yourself filled with needles, though it can be difficult. I suspect there was some... cooperation between the two of you in your past to get you so consistently shredded by Keyes. The AI will *attempt* to avoid shooting friendlies, but they don't always succeed - and as I noted previously, the Marines will actually apologize for it when they hit a friendly! Keyes doesn't get any generic combat dialogue though; aside from scripted dialogue, he's mute. Also, as far as I know, this is the only time in Halo 1 where human NPCs wield Covenant weaponry.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2021 22:18
|
|
|
BlazetheInferno posted:Also, as far as I know, this is the only time in Halo 1 where human NPCs wield Covenant weaponry. There is actually one other time but it's actually kind of subtle. We will mention it when it happens but erroneously call it the "first" time it happens.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 01:26
|
|
|
I believe the same composer for Halo also did the soundtrack for the Myth games, actually. Listening to you bring up how important the composer is.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 01:41
|
|
|
Two things from early Bungie that I really appreciate, the storytelling in Marathon and the music in Myth. drat, a Myth TFL remaster would be wonderful.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 03:48
|
|
|
BlazetheInferno posted:I will say, Keyes himself does use standard Marine AI during that last segment, and AI in Halo 1 absolutely hammers on the Needler when they get in combat, so it's entirely possible you're simply having trouble getting Keyes actually into the combat. But if you position yourself poorly, you can honestly get yourself filled with needles, though it can be difficult. I suspect there was some... cooperation between the two of you in your past to get you so consistently shredded by Keyes. He doesn't actually use entirely vanilla Marine AI. See, vanilla Marine AI has a "taunt enemy" action. Where they shoot a corpse. Repeatedly. Yeah, they got rid of that pretty quick.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 05:09
|
|
|
Ablative posted:He doesn't actually use entirely vanilla Marine AI. Eeeeeeeeeshh
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 09:08
|
|
|
I never had an xbox but had a few friends that were really into Halo. My only real experience is some local deathmatch and the time I actually borrowed an xbox and Halo in order to do a run through at home, I don't remember if I beat it but I do remember getting extremely lost in one of the later levels. Anyway https://i.imgur.com/f6X8YvZ.mp4
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 14:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 12:41 |
|
|
Do you only carry one type of grenade at a time?
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2021 18:19
|
|