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Post is a work in progress, bear with me. Let me know if you catch anything or have suggestions. I'll try to get it formatted better soon! I've been playing blackjack since some friends got jobs playing for one of the MIT blackjack teams, and got me into it the game (not the team unfortunately, I was too young). Blackjack isn't nearly as easy to beat as it was then, since team play has pretty much been disallowed (by just not allowing mid-shoe entry). However you can still get an edge just by playing basic strategy with a minimum of counting, at least for a small amount. And its also one of the best games to get casino comps at. I like to just get the odds close to even (while still not feeling like its a painful job), and play high enough that I get a decent amount of comps. I go to vegas with the expectation that I will win money and not have to pay for anything, and I'm pissed if I lose. To me, that's fun, and I kind of don't understand everyone else who is budgeting thousands of dollars to lose to the casino on their trips *and* paying for their rooms and drinks and food. People do make actual livings playing blackjack, although the professional blackjack forums are a bit depressing, at least from what I've seen. Solo play is mostly a low paid grind, although this movie is amazing and legit. I thought it might be complete bullshit, but I know a few of the people in the movie vouching for him. Shuffle tracking and hole carding techniques on display. Learning the game I'm going to give a lot of links to Wizard of Odds, because Michael Shackleford has been one of the best at giving great advice and computing the accurate edges of various strategies and blackjack variants for over 20 years now. If you know nothing about blackjack at all, his blackjack page gives a ton of walkthroughs (and even videos now) to teach the game. He does seem to have sold a ton of ads and affiliate links now though, ignore all of those! Lot of crap online casinos, don't play any of that! His content is as on point as ever though. I would go through his tutorials and then play the simulator for awhile to get the hang of things. When you go to a live casino, don't be afraid of telling the dealer that you are new to the game. They should be pretty amenable to helping you out with anything and they'll even tell you the "book" way of playing your hand if you ask, which is good enough. Ignore other players and however they want you to play. 90% of 'em just run on superstition. Basic Strategy After you figure out the basics of the game, then you want to look up the specific rules for blackjack at the casino you will be playing at. Shackleford keeps a fairly up to date list of the rules (and edges) for the good vegas games here. Do not ever play 6-5 blackjack, where blackjack is only paid off at 6:5, not the standard 3:2. Its better than slots I guess, but goddamn it is a poo poo game. That rule on its own about triples a "normal" blackjack games odds against you. You can see the impact of rule differences with this edge calculator. Everyone sitting at those tables because it is "cheap" is losing much more money than just playing a decent game with basic strategy at $25/bet. The odds and major rules of the table will be on the felt, but you might need to ask the pit boss to be sure about splitting aces or surrender - although hopefully they would be posted on a placard to the side. Take the rules and plug them into this calculator to get the basic (non counting) strategy for the game you want to play. (If this is all too much for you, I've never played it, but it looks like Shackleford has designed a near universal "simple strategy" that doesn't give up that much of an edge. ) Using the wrong strategy will hurt your odds, but the strategies don't vary *that* much. And casinos don't actually give a poo poo if you come to the table with the strategy printed out! Dealers can even be curious about it to see if it matches what "the book" says. Watch out, the cards the casino sells in the gift shop never seem to match the games they spread. Other players might be pissed at you if you slow the game down too much looking at your sheet though (not me, I kind of like a slow game). To learn the strategy, I have a bunch of flashcards made up for the most common games. Before I go to a casino, I'll pull out the cards for that game and whip through them a bunch of times to be sure I've got it down and refreshed in my head. Usually the better the rules, the higher limit you have to play. Used to be able to play "stand 17, double after split, resplit aces" everywhere for $5/hand, and even have late surrender a lot of places. Now that game is often just in the high limit area, if its spread at all. But looks like some casinos are getting a bit more desperate due to the pandemic! Just for reference, about the worst game I will play is six deck, hit 17, double after split, late surrender at red rocks, which Shackleford has at 0.54% odds against you. But they give me good comps! Counting Once you have basic strategy down, and have played enough to be sure you aren't making just basic mistakes, its time to start working on a bit of counting. The most common and the one I learned is Hi-Lo. The disadvantage to this is the casinos do know Hi-Lo pretty well now too! This count works by valuing the low cards (2-6) as 1 point, and 10s (10s and face cards) and aces as -1. Ignore 7,8,9s. I learned to count by just taking a deck of cards and cranking through it as I counted. Should be zero when you hit the end of the deck (hi-lo is a "balanced" count). As you get better, add decks and go faster. Then you start peeling off two cards at a time, instead of one. Doing two or more at a time helps when you are sitting at the table and a lot of cards are coming off together. Mentally you match the 10s to low cards and disregard them, so each hand for the table usually only adds/subtracts a few points. The general premise is that the higher the count, the more you want to bet. You make money by getting blackjacks, and by doubling and splitting when the dealer has a bust card. Never pass up the chance to double or split when the strategy calls for it, shovel that money out there with both hands. These situations happen a lot more when the count is high! Don't go from betting table min right to table max though, that will set off all sorts of red flags. You want to act like you're chasing your win streaks by doubling your bets (or if allowed even play more hands to soak up more of the good part of the deck from other players). Or act like you need to make up your losses by pushing out bigger and bigger bets. Gotta act a little bit, but you should try to get up to 4x of your standard bet when the deck is hot. A lot more if you can, I've watched people who are good at it plausibly move right up to table max pretty quickly. I'm not that good an actor though. Honestly, this is close to where I have always stopped. I'm happy with getting the odds pretty close to even by game selection and betting more when the count is favorable, and then "making money" by getting room and food comped. I'll see about making a separate thread for casino comps. Systems After being able to track the running count, you should be able to approximate the "true count" by dividing the running count by the number of decks left. The shoe is right there in front of you, but estimating decks is definitely more an art than a science. You don't need to worry about keeping track of fractions or anything though, as long as you are in the ballpark. The majority of the time the count is negative or small, and then just every now and then you get a nice run and go wild. Depending on the true count, you start mixing in deviations of strategy. The "Illustrious 18" are the major ones, and give you almost all of the solved games advantage. Shackleford has them listed in order of value here. You have to forego splitting tens unless you don't give a poo poo about getting flagged. All dealers will yell it out to alert the pit boss (as well as "checks play" or "black action" if you have been betting real small and are all of a sudden throwing out black $100 chips). I've gotten most of the way through the I18 as well as the "fab 4 surrenders" where surrenders are allowed. But I feel like deviating from basic strategy when the count is high is where you get flagged, (and its a ton more work!). So mostly I am just satisfied with working on getting as much money out as possible when the deck is good, and only occasionally mixing in the deviations. Baddog fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 00:29
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How do I get comped? What can I do ahead of time to get comped before showing up at a casino?
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Jan 12, 2021 00:54
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droll posted:How do I get comped? What can I do ahead of time to get comped before showing up at a casino? Interested in this too. This OP is excellent by the way
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Jan 12, 2021 00:56
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Baddog posted:After being able to track the running count, you should be able to approximate the "true count" by dividing the running count by the number of decks left. The shoe is right there in front of you, but estimating decks is definitely more an art than a science. You don't need to worry about keeping track of fractions or anything though, as long as you are in the ballpark. The majority of the time the count is negative or small, and then just every now and then you get a nice run and go wild. Depending on the true count, you start mixing in deviations of strategy. The "Illustrious 18" are the major ones, and give you almost all of the solved games advantage. Shackleford has them listed in order of value here. You have to forego splitting tens unless you don't give a poo poo about comps or coming back to that casino. All dealers will yell it out to alert the pit boss (as well as "checks play" or "black action" if you have been betting real small and are all of a sudden throwing out black $100 chips). I've gotten most of the way through this list as well as the "fab 4 surrenders" where surrenders are allowed. But I feel like deviating from basic strategy when the count is high is where you get flagged, (and its a ton more work!). Would love to hear from people who are real Hi-Lo experts, or who play other strategies (there are a ton). I've got dealer training (though I didn't get the position due to internal politics). The way casinos catch card counters nowadays is to track how often you deviate from basic strategy, and how often you win while doing so. If you only rarely go against The Book and usually win when you do, you're a counter. If you often leave the Book behind, and don't have a significant increase in winning, then you're fine. This is nearly impossible to beat - there is a camera looking straight down at every betting position, and most casinos have personnel dedicated solely to observing this. Training classes are focused more on detecting money laundering and counterfeits than they are cheating, because the dealer doesn't usually have to worry about that. Call-outs of high-value chips and such are more a guard against the dealer pulling something than anything else - it is surprisingly easy to palm chips and such during payout.
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Jan 12, 2021 01:09
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How common are continuous shuffle machines these days? As I understand it, advantage play is almost dead in some places due to the advent of those rotating shufflers. Has anyone seen them around? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpPEq0rnBOo On the other hand, does anyone know of any places that are still single deck games that still have 2-to-1 blackjack and not that trash 6-to-5?
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Jan 12, 2021 03:47
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AHH F/UGH posted:How common are continuous shuffle machines these days? As I understand it, advantage play is almost dead in some places due to the advent of those rotating shufflers. Has anyone seen them around? My casino has continuous shufflers on all the 6:5 games, but none of the 3:2 ones. The 6:5 ones are generally lower limit (and lower min bet). The things are unpopular with dealers because they're more cumbersome to deal from than a shoe.
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Jan 12, 2021 04:04
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Goddamn continuous shuffle machines! They are spreading.... Macao had them everywhere, but the nice thing was their rules were so good it was almost in your favor just playing basic strategy. Getting comps from them without being on a junket was hard though. I'll work on a comps thread next, although I'm a room/some board guy, nothing outrageous. Most strip casinos give you offers for your *next* trip, nothing if you are not already on an offer. Offstrip is better. You should always get a card and get your play rated if you are averaging close to 25/hand or better. If it's a new casino for me, I will call up casino credit and get approved for a marker before I go. If you ask for enough a host will probably reach out (or you can ask for them after you get approved). Ask if they can do anything for you before you go, but strip hotels almost always want to see your play first. Playing on credit always makes them more friendly. And you don't have to hit the bank in Vegas or carry a ton of cash. Just don't get degenerate. Caesars was giving out cruises for surprisingly little play last year. Probably more like NCL is trying to get caesars players on their ships. But either way, it was good.
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Jan 12, 2021 05:26
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ngl as a non-advantage blackjack player I kinda like em — less downtime
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Jan 12, 2021 05:49
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Gnoman posted:I've got dealer training (though I didn't get the position due to internal politics). The way casinos catch card counters nowadays is to track how often you deviate from basic strategy, and how often you win while doing so. If you only rarely go against The Book and usually win when you do, you're a counter. If you often leave the Book behind, and don't have a significant increase in winning, then you're fine. This is nearly impossible to beat - there is a camera looking straight down at every betting position, and most casinos have personnel dedicated solely to observing this. Training classes are focused more on detecting money laundering and counterfeits than they are cheating, because the dealer doesn't usually have to worry about that. Call-outs of high-value chips and such are more a guard against the dealer pulling something than anything else - it is surprisingly easy to palm chips and such during payout. Yep I'm gonna edit the post a bit to see if I can make this a little more clear. Pretty sure I have never been flagged because I don't deviate that often, and they don't care toooo much about the bet spread. And I'm not a heavy regular, its not my job, I'm not sitting there for 40 hours a week at any given casino. I think dabbling with this is a fun way to get your vegas trips paid for and not lose a lot of money over the long run (or not lose any money at all). But if you try to push it to where its a half percent or more in your favor for any serious period of time, I'd expect to get backed off. But not that long ago I ran into a pretty famous counter in vegas at the tables, still counting... so its not quite "impossible to beat" yet! However his wife then tried to get my wife into her amway pyramid, so maybe you're right and they aren't making too much money at counting anymore. Or they just added a new grift. Hey, speaking of palming, for awhile I was convinced I should palm a chip and rathole it every now and then so that it might appear I wasn't winning as much as I was (and I'd get in that "deviates but loses" category). Gave it up because it just didn't seem to make any difference, but was I loving the dealers if they have to reconcile everything? Of course its a lot harder to do any of that these days since I think even the greens have RFID chips in them now.
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Jan 12, 2021 10:09
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Customers palming chips when they lose (or slipping them on when they're going to win) is a form of cheating that we were specifically taught to look for, but is really hard to detect.
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Jan 12, 2021 15:17
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Gnoman posted:Customers palming chips when they lose (or slipping them on when they're going to win) is a form of cheating that we were specifically taught to look for, but is really hard to detect. I don't mean taking them off the betting circle! That's stealing. I meant just taking a chip off my stack and putting it in my pocket so when they do the count "he came with 1k and left with 900" they think I lost. You made me think that perhaps the dealer gets blamed if the chips don't add up at the end of shift.
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Jan 12, 2021 19:36
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No, what I mean is that one of the things they speifically watch for is the dealer pulling out more chips than needed to pay out, and palming one as they slide it off. That can be hard for the cameras to spot, so they lije to have the pit supervisor watching as a backup when high-value chips (blacks, purples, and oranges) are in play. Actually tryong to match the chips is impossible ebcause customers are not prohibited from taking them home or to another table.
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Jan 12, 2021 19:47
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I think a lot of people refer it as past-posting and short changing, if that's what you mean. Yeah that's some scummy poo poo and probably not even profitable considering the risk. I've seen someone get caught for it at a roulette table once. The guy looked exactly how you'd imagine him to look - basically like a homeless version of John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever. He was escorted out with the right amount of money by two huge-rear end security guards. Anyhoo, I'm a very casual AP but I am profitable overall at it, I just don't have any casinos close to me anymore where I was able to do it regularly, but back when I lived in Korea and was closer to a casino, I would spend time on weekends there and during downtime playing Texas hold 'em, I would go and do a few hands at the blackjack tables. And let me tell you, holy god almighty, Asian casino patrons have some of the most nightmarish basic strategy on earth. They also do this thing where every time they hit and their card is turned over, they slap the table and go "HAP!" like it's good luck or something. So god drat annoying. AHH F/UGH fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 01:12
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AHH F/UGH posted:How common are continuous shuffle machines these days? As I understand it, advantage play is almost dead in some places due to the advent of those rotating shufflers. Has anyone seen them around? when I dealt back in like... gently caress that had to be 2014-2015 ish, my casino tried out an automatic shuffler on one of the blackjack tables I, personally, loving loved it as a dealer because then I didn't have to stop to shuffle a bunch of decks, but players hated it because they thought the machine was rigged (there was not a noticeable drop in won hands or anything, but, y'know, gamblers) in the face of constant pissing and moaning from players (who could have just gone to any of the manually shuffled tables but didn't, because, gamblers) we eventually ditched the auto shuffler, and the players went back to thinking the game was rigged by the dealer instead of the machine Lunatic Sledge fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 03:12
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i thought i put all this behind me years ago. now poker in the rear is back and i'm practicing hi-lo instead of working. i think the last thread recommended Las Vegas Blackjack Diary as a good read and i'd agree. it really nails down how this poo poo isn't fun, it's a job, you still lose a lot, and you can't stop counting
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Jan 13, 2021 17:55
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I really recommend Million Dollar Blackjack for people who want to put some effort into counting. I have a previous edition, so I don't know if some of the anecdotes have been updated, but it's a fairly thorough look at various counting systems and how to train yourself. Like anything else it just takes practice.
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Jan 15, 2021 23:48
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saintonan posted:I really recommend Million Dollar Blackjack for people who want to put some effort into counting. I have a previous edition, so I don't know if some of the anecdotes have been updated, but it's a fairly thorough look at various counting systems and how to train yourself. Like anything else it just takes practice. Probably hasn’t changed much; the author has been dead for over 30 years. 
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Jan 16, 2021 00:02
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If it was written 30 years ago, any advice will be pretty close to useless. The ways casinos catch counters nowadays (primarily, as I said earlier, by monitoring how often you diverge from the "correct" play) is vastly different and obsoleted most earlier techniques.
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Jan 16, 2021 00:27
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Gnoman posted:If it was written 30 years ago, any advice will be pretty close to useless. The ways casinos catch counters nowadays (primarily, as I said earlier, by monitoring how often you diverge from the "correct" play) is vastly different and obsoleted most earlier techniques. It’s still a good primer for learning how to count though the deployment advice is dated.
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Jan 16, 2021 00:35
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Gnoman posted:If it was written 30 years ago, any advice will be pretty close to useless. The ways casinos catch counters nowadays (primarily, as I said earlier, by monitoring how often you diverge from the "correct" play) is vastly different and obsoleted most earlier techniques. Midjack posted:It’s still a good primer for learning how to count though the deployment advice is dated. Right, the anecdotes probably aren't helpful but the breakdown on different counting systems is still gold.
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Jan 16, 2021 00:47
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What if the casino shuffles the deck after each hand
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Jan 16, 2021 00:54
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That's basically what a continuous shuffler does. The other trick used is burning cards - if a table's going really hot, the dealer might be informed that it is break time and another sent in. This removes 1-2 cards from the deck unseen (new dealer burns a card, sometimes the old one does as well), obscuring the count.
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Jan 16, 2021 00:56
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I don't know if it's standard elsewhere, but a lot of the casinos in Oklahoma swap dealers + burn a card every fifteen to twenty minutes
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Jan 16, 2021 01:04
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Shuffling up the deck every hand kinda kills your counting yep. The only time a casino has ever done anything to me was at sams town, single deck, where the boss came over and told the guy to start shuffling every hand on me. Even though on single deck you can still get a good idea what's left in the deck by the time action gets to you, it doesn't matter (enough) if you can't get a second hand in on that deal and change your bet size. Let me know if you see a 3:2 single deck game around anymore though. I never thought much about the burn card, it's only 1 card out of many left. That really happens huh. I'm more worried about getting bad penetration, but mostly I play six deck shoes and the cut card is fixed. I've had good success getting dealers to throw away bad shoes every now and then though.
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Jan 16, 2021 05:58
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3:2 single deck is advantage bait if it’s the only table in the house with those rules and the microscope will be on you as soon as you start deviating.
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Jan 16, 2021 06:19
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Pakistani Brad Pitt posted:ngl as a non-advantage blackjack player I kinda like em — less downtime watch me split this 10s while asking how the machine works
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Jan 18, 2021 02:50
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Glad to find this thread here-- I haven't played BJ for many years, but I counted pretty seriously from about 2005 to 2008-- I'm pretty sure I'm still persona non grata at blackjack in the Station casinos after getting backed off one too many times. And I've still got a deep love/hate relationship with the El Cortez after being backed off from for going from $5 to $20 on their single-deck games. That was the very end of the era when counting was profitable and I'm glad I got into it before every single dealer hit soft 17. It sounds like the security has gotten better, as well. It was pretty fun pretending to be some kind of spy/rager against the machine and I made quite a bit of money (mostly just good variance from a few sessions at the Bellagio). But flying out to Vegas just to spend 6 hours a day walking around casinos and not drinking got old. I gravitated to poker just in time to make some decent money off of that before all the really bad players lost interest in it. I'd also be interested in finding out what level of blackjack play gets comps these days-- most of my gambling these days is a bit of green chip pai gow and that gets me weekday nights during the offseason in Atlantic City, but nothing else.
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Jan 18, 2021 08:55
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RapturesoftheDeep posted:
Spreading 25 to 200 for a few hours at a casino I haven't been to in awhile still seems to get me offers for 3 free nights almost everywhere. mostly weeknight, but some weekends. Often some room credits too. I'd heard Caesars was giving cruises, so I hopped into their high limit (still s17) for maybe two hours and splashed around a bit (think i got up to 500). Tipped well (if that even helps much, but the floor has gotta have some discretion eh). Went by the host desk after and got that nice buffet comped for four and a few weeks later they sent me the cruise for two. Went back on 3 free weekend nights and just played poker haha, and of course it dried up, but you know how it goes. This was pre pandemic, no idea what's going on these days.
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Jan 18, 2021 10:34
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Baddog posted:Spreading 25 to 200 for a few hours at a casino I haven't been to in awhile still seems to get me offers for 3 free nights almost everywhere. mostly weeknight, but some weekends. Often some room credits too. I'd heard Caesars was giving cruises, so I hopped into their high limit (still s17) for maybe two hours and splashed around a bit (think i got up to 500). Tipped well (if that even helps much, but the floor has gotta have some discretion eh). Went by the host desk after and got that nice buffet comped for four and a few weeks later they sent me the cruise for two. Went back on 3 free weekend nights and just played poker haha, and of course it dried up, but you know how it goes. This was pre pandemic, no idea what's going on these days. Is this in Vegas? I will have to get some BJ in once things are not a total shitshow-- that is a lot better than I get in AC for similar play at pai gow and craps. Of course, playing blackjack means dealing with ploppies who yell at you for hitting 16 in third base.
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Jan 19, 2021 04:13
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RapturesoftheDeep posted:Is this in Vegas? Yep, vegas. You gotta stand for the team! gently caress that lol. Hey speaking of making people upset, you ever bank pai gow? I hardly ever play it, but of course I gotta bank. Man, that seems to clear out the table.
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Jan 19, 2021 06:57
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Baddog posted:Hey speaking of making people upset, you ever bank pai gow? I hardly ever play it, but of course I gotta bank. Man, that seems to clear out the table. I've done it once or twice, but it's really rare to see anybody do it in Atlantic City anymore-- people seem to really hate it! To be honest I barely remember the mechanics of it because it happens so rarely anymore.
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Jan 19, 2021 08:19
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RapturesoftheDeep posted:I've done it once or twice, but it's really rare to see anybody do it in Atlantic City anymore-- people seem to really hate it! To be honest I barely remember the mechanics of it because it happens so rarely anymore. When you bank its nearly even money vs a -2.5% game when you don't. So alternating banking makes it such a better game (-1.25%), but yep people really hate playing against another player. If they don't leave they'll minbet, like its a courtesy to me.
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Jan 19, 2021 09:02
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How much do you bet when you bank? Most people I see banking are putting up enough to cover everybody else's bets, which is more than I usually want to put on the line. Instead I very occasionally bet the sucker side bets-- Once I hit like $300 on Emperor's Treasure and an envy bonus the next hand, and ever since I've been hooked.
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Jan 20, 2021 03:21
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RapturesoftheDeep posted:How much do you bet when you bank? Most people I see banking are putting up enough to cover everybody else's bets, which is more than I usually want to put on the line. Never banked myself, but I believe you have to at least cover everybody else's bets. EDIT: It does look like some (most?) places will let you co-bank for less. And yeah, I'm a sucker for the fortune bonus/envy side bet. I figure since my $20/$25 main bet is like 40% to push, the 5 on the side is whatever. (And I'd hate to not have it out there when I/someone at the table hits a straight flush.) CellBlock fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jan 21, 2021 |
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Jan 21, 2021 21:52
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I bank as much as i can, even odds with comps on top. Stop playing side bets! Degenerates haha.
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Jan 22, 2021 02:03
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without suckers taking side bets and insurance, there would be no tables to play
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Jan 23, 2021 17:57
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Misc posted:without suckers taking side bets and insurance, there would be no tables to play no dont worry your bets are -ev too
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Jan 23, 2021 18:01
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:no dont worry your bets are -ev too 
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Jan 26, 2021 20:33
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So in reality, is it worth trying to count with a six (or more) deck shoe? I always figured whatever minimal advantage you could pull out with that much possible variation isn't worth the effort unless you're playing like 8 hours a day every day and really needing to creep that house edge out of the way. But for your average "go to the casino a few weekends a year" type player? I guess to put it more cleanly, for those who have actually done this, how often does the true count get high enough to matter when it's always going to be divided by like 3 or 4 at best (and higher than that a good amount of the time)? All I do when I play is religiously follow the basic strategy and figure I can make up the half a percentage point with free drinks and comps or a little bit of short-term luck. I've never really gotten into counting, since it seemed like more of a pain than it was worth. Maybe I'll give it a trial run on like, Pokerstars VR. StarkRavingMad fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 00:20
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I actually kind of like counting a shoe cus when it does go high it can be high for awhile. Definitely can be worthwhile.
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Jan 28, 2021 02:12
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