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You got me there. It wasn't written by him, it's a compilation of writings that he made in his lectures at Union Theological Seminary. It was published in 67 apparently. I suppose it's conceivable he wrote the actual parts to it earlier than that. I think by revolution he just means what the man on the street means by the word "revolution" or what's conjured in the minds eye. A mass uprising, barricades, factory occupations, paving stones unearthed and lobbed at police or that sort of thing. I can only assume that it's a question of degree and what he's really implying is that compared to the French they are very slow to resort to disorderly means to achieve their goals. Perhaps this is true.
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Jan 30, 2023 20:50
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Prurient Squid posted:I think by revolution he just means what the man on the street means by the word "revolution" or what's conjured in the minds eye. A mass uprising, barricades, factory occupations, paving stones unearthed and lobbed at police or that sort of thing. I can only assume that it's a question of degree and what he's really implying is that compared to the French they are very slow to resort to disorderly means to achieve their goals. Perhaps this is true. I think his definition revolution is definitely going to be influenced by the Marxist-Leninist understanding of revolution and by fascism forming in Germany. When I get a chance I’ll see if he formally defined it in the Socialist Decision.
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Jan 30, 2023 21:29
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Yes I think it’s definitely going to be influenced by the French Revolution through both those routes too.
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Jan 30, 2023 21:38
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https://phys.org/news/2023-01-viking-brutality-monastery.html
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Jan 31, 2023 06:27
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The Master and Margarita is really good. I don't really get what the cat is all about but it's already my favourite character ever.     
Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Jan 31, 2023 |
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Jan 31, 2023 11:32
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I think I might get Orientalism by Edward Said. e: I've bought this now and Eurocentrism by Samin Amir. e: I'll buy Karl Barth's The Epistle to the Romans. Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jan 31, 2023 |
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Jan 31, 2023 19:32
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The Humanity of God by Barth is good too. Didn’t find a formal definition of revolution but I did find where he differentiates between not revolutionary and revolutionary romanticism. It’s the final break the current system and the attempt to make a new origin by violence that he characterizes as “revolutionary” 
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Feb 1, 2023 00:41
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Behemoth owns extremely hard and I'm honored to say that in an adaption he would be well served by Mr Danny DeVito. M&M also has Lowkey some of my favorite cover art of all time This guy is the cover I have, and is probably my favorite of all time but....  Wordsworth Delivers hard  Bonus Behemoth Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 04:15
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Gaius Marius posted:
I'm dying. In My Dinner with Andre, Wally Shawn (in character) says he played the cat in Master and Margarita. I'd like to see that.
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Feb 1, 2023 11:34
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There's a six hour audiobook on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Aud-z9KJeE e: My thoughts so far. The jibes at the Stalin era literary establishment go over my head a bit because obviously I don't know these people or their works. But it's obvious these people live in a bubble and enjoy privilages and would do anything to hold on to it. They live together with each other in one building and seeth with malice and mutual envy. I hope the cat shows up more. The cat is hysterically funny. e: There's a level I wasn't getting. Massolit sees it's self as a populist literary movement whose works glorify the struggles of the ordinary man and woman. But it's artists don't inwardly feel the sentiments they put forth in their novels and poetry. All they care about is the perks and privilages of living their hermetically sealed life inside their comfortable shell. They know they are hack frauds basically. So it's actually a tragedy. e: I think shouting "In his heart he's a Kulak" is basically the way of saying "Check your privilage". Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Feb 3, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 12:43
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I'm thinking about getting baptized into being orthodox christian instead of a jewboy. I've got far more of a community in russian/now-greek orthodox churches than I ever felt in Temple. And now that I'm nearly old salvation feels more real than being a light unto the nations. Anybody ever converted that way? Like I have always loved being jewish but never really cared, now I've been going to church and it actually feels like I get poo poo. Local greek orthodox church is like my only family outside of my wife and kids now. I kinda like the idea of salvation instead of rules the more I attend as a pleasantry.
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Feb 3, 2023 22:26
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I can think of at least one Jew who converted a few years before dying yeah.
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Feb 4, 2023 02:02
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If your asking you've already made the decision you just want someone to back you up. That's how I always see it
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Feb 4, 2023 02:06
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There's a couple at my parish that converted well into old age, and Fr. Alexander Men, who died shortly before the fall of the USSR, was a convert from Judaism (albeit as a child), so neither one is unheard of.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:23
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I'm thinking about getting baptized into being orthodox christian... Do what feels right, OP. It sounds like you’ve already made your decision. Serious question: I’ve heard there’s no sitting in Orthodox services. How does that not kill the feet or back after 40-50 minutes? Automatic Slim fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Feb 4, 2023 |
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Feb 4, 2023 09:50
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I hope your choice brings you satisfaction Edger Allen Ho! Something unrelated. I've been reading Maimonides "Guide for the Perplexed" and it's clear that he's less concerned with proving the existence of God as proving God's unity. For him to intone a statement of faith without comprehension is to lack the notion of God's unity. This notion if understood properly, he claims, will result in a conception that can't be doubted and produce certainty. This certainty is something that can only be cultivated by a minority of speculative thinkers.
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Feb 4, 2023 12:43
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Automatic Slim posted:Do what feels right, OP. It sounds like you’ve already made your decision. There are generally benches around the perimeter for those unable to stand.
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Feb 4, 2023 14:16
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Automatic Slim posted:Do what feels right, OP. It sounds like you’ve already made your decision. To be fair once you get past a certain age, the stand-sit-kneel procedure of Catholic Mass starts to get a bit much. Not that anyone cares if you don't do it, though.
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Feb 4, 2023 14:29
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Who wants to donate to my kickstarter to send M.Night Shyamalan a copy of Fear and Trembling?
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Feb 5, 2023 04:41
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I just noticed that Engels mentions Jakob Böhme in Socialism Utopian and Scientific. Interesting. e: Engels developed Marxism or "Dialectical Materialism" alongside Karl Marx. They considered themselves to be theoreticians of "Scientific Socialism" which they differentiated from "Utopian Socialism", the Utopian socialists were reformers who wanted to build ideal communities based on schematics they developed themselves. As part of his work, which forms a subsection of a greater work, usually titled Anti-Dühring, Engels is interested in exploring the origins of Materialist thought. Jakob Böhme was a 16th Century German mystic who believed the the Kingdom of God was all around and could be accessed by silence. He may have been an influence on the Quakers and was described as "the first German philosopher" by Hegel because he wrote in the German language. He opposed the fierce religious sectarianism of the time and believed that all such fallings out were due to the substitution of flawed human interpretations for genuine Christianity. Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Feb 5, 2023 |
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Feb 5, 2023 18:20
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I think I reject Existentialism. I think "humanity" exists and human beings can conform or fail to conform to it. So the idea that philosophers of the past of had that, for instance, human essence is reason but a baby is still a human in spite of this essential element only being implicit, is in my opinion close to the truth. I think we should try to work how actual human beings can behave in inhuman ways rather than despairing of the very idea that an essential nature exists. Maybe I believe that existentialism solves the paradox of man's inhumanity too quickly. e: True human beings will be incapable of feeding other human beings to lions or waging war or defaming their enemies in a campaign of slander. Humanity is something that we are groping towards and artificially constructing all the time but it is not arbitrary. The realisation of humanity is the fulfillment of humanities purpose. Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Feb 6, 2023 |
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Feb 6, 2023 01:56
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That sounds like some serious No True Scotsman you've got going there. From a historical standpoint, a majority of all humans who ever lived were okay with being terrible to some portion of other humans.
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Feb 6, 2023 03:50
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Prurient Squid posted:I think I reject Existentialism. I think "humanity" exists and human beings can conform or fail to conform to it. So the idea that philosophers of the past of had that, for instance, human essence is reason but a baby is still a human in spite of this essential element only being implicit, is in my opinion close to the truth. I think we should try to work how actual human beings can behave in inhuman ways rather than despairing of the very idea that an essential nature exists. Maybe I believe that existentialism solves the paradox of man's inhumanity too quickly. I strongly reject any idea that a person can not be a 'true human being'. There is nothing a human being can do that is outside what human beings do, by definition. I refuse to draw lines and say, the person on the other side of this line is not a true human. They are less human than others.
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Feb 6, 2023 04:28
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Prurient Squid posted:I think we should try to work how actual human beings can behave in inhuman ways rather than despairing of the very idea that an essential nature exists. i dont think its actually possible for humans to behave in "inhuman ways". i think the word "inhuman" is one derived from wishful thinking and an inability to face some of the horrors we can commit against each other or against other living creatures. (some of the time, it's also a word used to draw divisions between in-groups and outsiders). but in reality when it comes down to it, "humanity" is simply the sum total of human behavior, not just what we'd like it to be. quote:True human beings will be incapable of feeding other human beings to lions or waging war or defaming their enemies in a campaign of slander. if people who wage war are not "true human beings" than what are they? this just seems like changing a definition for the sake of idealism.
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Feb 6, 2023 04:54
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suppose you have one culture which values extreme pacifism, and another culture in which waging war is considered acceptable or even desirable under certain circumstances. if you draw a line and say that one of these cultures is "more human" than the other, you are already doing the work that leads to violence, even if you believe you are favoring the pacifists when doing so, that's only happening in the short term. when members of one culture believe that members of another culture are "not human or "less human", that is bigotry by definition, and the foundation of many of humanity's worst ills. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Feb 6, 2023 |
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Feb 6, 2023 04:59
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HopperUK posted:I strongly reject any idea that a person can not be a 'true human being'. There is nothing a human being can do that is outside what human beings do, by definition. I refuse to draw lines and say, the person on the other side of this line is not a true human. They are less human than others. Touching on a sensitive subject here so I'll tread as lightly as I can, especially as I suspect I'm in the minority and I'm not looking for a fight, but where do you draw the line of personhood? Developmentally speaking. Because I agree with what you are saying and I would include the unborn in it. I don't think there can be any non-arbitrary line drawn along the continuum after conception.
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Feb 6, 2023 05:16
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Earwicker posted:suppose you have one culture which values extreme pacifism, and another culture in which waging war is considered acceptable or even desirable under certain circumstances. I think it's a tough self-reflection to not just ask "why would someone do that?" when we see 'inhuman' behavior, but to ask "what would it take for me to do that?" I think an honest answer to that question frightens people. We're all run by the same human emotions and drives. When we see monstrous acts done by another person I think it horrifies us partly because, in some basic way, we see ourselves reflected in others. We psychologically need to distance ourselves to stay sane... So we call them, and their act, inhuman.
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Feb 6, 2023 05:19
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Winifred Madgers posted:Touching on a sensitive subject here so I'll tread as lightly as I can, especially as I suspect I'm in the minority and I'm not looking for a fight, but where do you draw the line of personhood? Developmentally speaking. Because I agree with what you are saying and I would include the unborn in it. I don't think there can be any non-arbitrary line drawn along the continuum after conception. I am not going to answer that here. Sorry.
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Feb 6, 2023 05:34
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Prurient Squid posted:I think I reject Existentialism. I think "humanity" exists and human beings can conform or fail to conform to it. So the idea that philosophers of the past of had that, for instance, human essence is reason but a baby is still a human in spite of this essential element only being implicit, is in my opinion close to the truth. I think we should try to work how actual human beings can behave in inhuman ways rather than despairing of the very idea that an essential nature exists. Maybe I believe that existentialism solves the paradox of man's inhumanity too quickly. What you're describing are angels, not humans. Humans are absolutely capable of feeding each other to lions. They are imperfect and sinful. You're confusing the ideal of what humans ought to be with the reality of what they are. Your ideal that we're supposedly building toward is impossible to attain, and why we're in need of salvation in the first place.
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Feb 6, 2023 06:42
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Deteriorata posted:What you're describing are angels, not humans. Humans are absolutely capable of feeding each other to lions. They are imperfect and sinful. The ideal of what humans ought to be was human. Flannery O'Connor in one of her novels (though I cannot remember which) has a character that drives a “rat turd” colored car. It’s just a long paragraph of rat turd rat turd rat turd about this character. Awful character. That character makes the Christ sacrifice later in the book. We are imperfect, sinful and capable of genocide. We also can be for others. Any of us. Because we can point to one of us that was.
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Feb 6, 2023 08:12
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Earwicker posted:when members of one culture believe that members of another culture are "not human or "less human", that is bigotry by definition, and the foundation of many of humanity's worst ills. no u see calling russians orcs is ok bc
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Feb 6, 2023 11:05
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I'd like to respond to what Earwicker said above and I think JCDent said something similar earlier. Hitler definitely was a human and a true human and pure human and nothing but a human being. But he fell short of humanity. He betrayed his humanity and if he was a monster his actions would be more excusable. Hitler's acts deserve the reproach "be human". But if you said to a cat "be a cat" that would be meaningless. In fact I almost want to turn the whole thing around the other way and argue ONLY humans can be evil because only humans can fall short of their own humanity. So if you have committed evil acts that's proof that you definitely are human. e: I thought about some more. I'm a 100% embodiment of humanity because I'm a human being. Nothing I can do or say can make me less a human. But I have brown eyes and brown hair and not green eyes and blonde hair. Now we're talking about something else. The gene pool and alleles. So in that sense I'm only a partial expression of humanity. But you can carry on the cycle and have different sense of humanity and the ways in which human communities can be full or partial expressions of humanity. Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Feb 6, 2023 |
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Feb 6, 2023 12:59
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Personally, I believe that the point of humanity is that we are capable of both the greatest, most selfless good, and the most terrible evil. What does being good mean if being good is all that you are capable of? I believe that the reason we are capable of both good and evil is that the choice to do good, to be good, is meaningful to God. https://i.imgur.com/Ypiov0q.mp4
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Feb 6, 2023 13:25
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If you become "inhuman," what do you become? A sort of ape? We have at least a good idea of the general parameters of the behavior of our ape brothers, and it turns out they are mostly chill but occasionally capable of acts of shocking sadism and violence. Other mammals? Go all the way back until you turn the corner back to dinosaurs/birds? Advance to crab? And by contrast, if someone does lack certain aspects of what you could call the "sinful nature," by luck, training, or accident, do they become less human too? And if so, which way are they going? Towards ape or towards angel?
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Feb 6, 2023 15:26
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Do you all remember the Christian guy who went to try and convert those extremely isolated people who lived near India? They killed him and nobody cared. Some even celebrated. I think about that a lot when I'm in the mood to research hunter-gatherers. These societies fascinate me because they might hold some keys to how humans started out. And even if they don't, it's a completely alien way of life to all I've known so of course it's endlessly intriguing. Anyway, we protect these societies, even though they largely go against most modern "acceptable norms.". Simpler societies tend to be more egalitarian true but they also have strict sexual divisions (although thee vary a ton - so you can get some societies where female competitiveness is promoted) and girls having sex and getting pregnant at ages like 15 is studied with anthropological detachment. Unlike that Christian fella, most Christians or progressive minded people would never think of actually enforcing any sort of universal code on these peoples. We accept that they live their own lives and have their own ways. Whenever I contemplate these totally foreign societies, with their pros and cons (pros being aforementioned egalitarianism, other ways of education and raising children, etc.), it's humbling. I realize humans are impossibly diverse and that no one idea or concept or rule is truly universal to them. The attempt to find one, which I've attempted so many times in my life and which other human beings have tried for thousands of years, is so incredibly wrongheaded. Obviously so, if you ever stop to think.
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Feb 6, 2023 15:55
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The way I heard someone put it was "the ways of being human are bounded but infinite," which sounded right to me.
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Feb 6, 2023 15:59
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Prurient Squid posted:I'd like to respond to what Earwicker said above and I think JCDent said something similar earlier. reproaching people who commit terrible acts with "be human" would also be meaningless. part of the problem here is that the ideals of "humanity" you are talking about vary from person to person, culture to culture. your particular sense of what the ideal "humanity" means is not at all universal. none of them are. many of the people who do terrible things to other people fully believe they are doing good things when they do so. that they are, in fact, living up to the standard of the "ideal human". either their cultural beliefs or personal experiences or some combination thereof has led them to that conclusion. someone reproaching them and saying their actions are "inhuman" - especially if that someone is coming from a different set of beliefs and experiences - is unlikely to even phase them.
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Feb 6, 2023 16:28
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NikkolasKing posted:Anyway, we protect these societies, even though they largely go against most modern "acceptable norms.". Simpler societies tend to be more egalitarian true but they also have strict sexual divisions (although thee vary a ton - so you can get some societies where female competitiveness is promoted) and girls having sex and getting pregnant at ages like 15 is studied with anthropological detachment. Unlike that Christian fella, most Christians or progressive minded people would never think of actually enforcing any sort of universal code on these peoples. We accept that they live their own lives and have their own ways. im sorry but, this is bullshit first of all, the vast majority of remote island societies in the world have in fact dealt with multiple attempts (often quite successful) to convert them to Christianity. all through the 19th and 20th centuries Christian missionaries managed to get to just about every remote region of the world and they were absolutely interested in enforcing universal codes on the people in question. this was strongly encouraged by various kinds of Christians in many western countries, churches would publicly gather funds and resources for these missions, it was incredibly popular, and its still incredibly popular today. the idea that the majority of Christians "accept that they live their own lives and have their own ways" sounds like mockery in the face of centuries of Christian missionarism and outright conquest that spread the religion around the world. secondly, the particular islanders you are referring to are primarily protected by themselves, not some altruistic "we". the islands are in Indian territory (when India sent a helicopter in 2004 to check on the islanders after the tsunami it was repelled by arrow fire), before that they were controlled by the Brits, who fought the islanders several times. if India hadn't gained independence, who knows what fuckery would be going on there, but it's certainly not Christians or any other outsiders protecting those islands lastly, this isn't just historical. as a non-Christian who has frequently lived in Christian majority societies, the idea that Christians in general accept that non-Christians "live their own lives and have their own ways" just lfmao no. there are a few I have encountered that are like or at least able to pretend to be like that, but i find it impossible to believe its a majority. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Feb 6, 2023 |
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Feb 6, 2023 16:48
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Assuming Nikkolas is speaking of the Sentinelese, didn't the most recent effort to contact them come from attempts by Christian missionaries to land?
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Feb 6, 2023 17:02
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Nessus posted:Assuming Nikkolas is speaking of the Sentinelese, didn't the most recent effort to contact them come from attempts by Christian missionaries to land? it was one dude, who claimed the island was "Satan's last stronghold on earth". he illegally hired some local fisherman to drop him off. technically the most recent efforts to contact those peoeple came from Indian authorities attempting to recover the dude's body (they failed) his trip wasn't officially sponsored by a particular church (because it was illegal) however he was trained (and, after his death, applauded as a "martyr" by) a missionary organization called All Nations. (https://allnations.international/) his training apparently involved a fake "native village" complete with people roleplaying hostile indigenous people resisting Christianity. the organization received a bit of attention and criticism after the guy died but they are still around and doing their thing and so are a ton of other Christian missionary organizations. these days a lot of the missionarism occurs under the guise of international aid. for example there were several organizations who went to Sri Lanka and other countries following the 2004 tsunami to help rebuild but also to convert people to Christianity while doing so. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Feb 6, 2023 |
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Feb 6, 2023 17:38
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