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Bar Ran Dun posted:I’ll post about it later today when I’m not out. So let’s start with the Baltic states. Think Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and let’s throw in the northern coastal parts of Poland for good measure. Estonia is basically Tallinn. Tallinn is an old European city that is unique because it’s just about where the war destruction stopped in WWII. The Soviet Union was very much present in the Baltic states and the waterfront and residential buildings in several of these cities. Communism there is a real failed project of the past that people there have complex thoughts about. It’s post communist. This is mixed up with the strong reaction to Russian chauvinism from that period. Any way the reality there in the Baltics is much closer to Nesses’ description of the setting of DE: “simultaneously a dream, a political theory, a failed regime, a successful program brought down by evil manifest, an idea which is the solitary source of hope for humanity, an idea which is a laughable scourge on humanity, and the producer of an unsafe nuclear reactor. “ Now into this post communist region. Imagine ferry loads of Scandinavians. Tallinn especially is a tourist location. Before the Baltic’s went fully onto the Euro, so go back a bit more than twenty years ago, the exchange rates were also very advantageous to Scandinavians and Europeans in general. There was a certain amount of sex tourism because of the currency rates coupled with the tourism. So 20 years ago these Baltic states were preparing to join Europe and you had Swedes, Finns, and Norwegians partying heavily and with lots of prostitution. That would have been the face of social democracy to a lot of folks, so Sunday Friend. That’s why moralism seems very Scandinavian in the game. And that’s why the moralist church looks like a Norwegian stave church.
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May 29, 2023 04:04
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omg who cares
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May 29, 2023 05:28
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Bilirubin posted:omg who cares You ever read On a Theology of Culture? It’s an important series of essay mostly because it lays out the grounds for analysis and critique of art in a modern Christian context. In those essays Tillich moves past the moral, or the rational, or the subjective intuition as religion to the of depth in the totality of the human spirit as what defines religion. It’s a good game cause that’s what it’s about.
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May 29, 2023 07:05
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Bilirubin posted:omg who cares I'm fairly interested. Though saying that I think the Sunday Friend is different in that he seems a lot more "Centerist Dad" but with power behind it. I think he is the most character I have hated the most in any video game and believe that he is one of the best examples of pure, brutal, evil that I have ever seen in my life. I can stomach darklords and cackling sorcerers and dread Gods, but they are dwarfed in the sheer "how bad of a person am I" to someone who talks about "The Price Stability".
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May 29, 2023 10:48
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Bilirubin posted:omg who cares 
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May 29, 2023 11:43
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Nessus posted:In Disco Elysium's setting, Communism is simultaneously a dream, a political theory, a failed regime, a successful program brought down by evil manifest, an idea which is the solitary source of hope for humanity, an idea which is a laughable scourge on humanity, and the producer of an unsafe nuclear reactor. I found that fairly accurate portrayal of people's relation to it, living in a post-communist state. Nothing in it seemed overtly online or insincere to me, honestly sube fucked around with this message at 13:15 on May 29, 2023 |
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May 29, 2023 13:11
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Josef bugman posted:Okay, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this particular idea about Disco Elysium, for several reasons. I don't believe that the game is being insincere. It's being Sincere in both it's cynicism of the world and it is also very in the little moments that help to make the world more beautiful despite all the problems that plague it. The game is also frequently very funny, it's fine to say that you don't find it humourous, or that you find certain things unappealing, but I don't think something that makes people laugh this much is able to just be called "unfunny". Also to call something "juvenile" is slightly odd. Why do you think it's Juvenile and what do you consider to be "adult" as a type of media? It's insincere in its presentation. It is irreparably damaged by the post sixties malaise of cynicism that has infected people; it can't talk about the hope of communism or human decency without burying itself in artifice and self censure. The few moments that stand out, like the "date" with the fisherwoman are good, but the majority of the game is filled with dialogue peppered with your pocket full of pickle ricks living in your mind. It's exhausting, it's like watching a film where half your view is obscured by a pillar, or reading a work (good or bad it doesn't particularly matter[although you'd think you'd want to read a good novel] which) that is parenthesized to hell in attempt to get in your cheap jokes and references. Largely because of that I consider it a juvenile work, that is juvenile in character not juvenile as in an authors juvenilia. To anthropomorphize it would give it the character of a shy, edgy teen with strong opinions on things but an inability to voice them productively and a lack of experience to consider such thoughts fully worked out; a child whose gaze is always floorbound while their thoughts heavenbound. I also do not give one drat about other people's tastes. Game ain't funny in general, and certain parts like everything with Electrochemistry or the Tie are pure anti humor; levels of this should have never been shown to someone publicly that previously only highschool love poems to your crush occupied. NikkolasKing posted:I have no opinion on DE but the discussion in the thread reminds me of all the arguments I heard growing up about "can a urinal be art?" It's kind of not the same thing because of the complete difference in approach and meaning. DE is a written work with clear goals and intentions behind it. Duchamp was elevating the mundane purely through the ineffable powers of "art". There's a distinction with the Fountain that people miss in that it is not that the Fountain is art, but that it is made art. You can follow that rabbit hole down a lot of interesting avenues and a lot of really cool work has been made that confirm or deny it as a premise. That's not here nor there tho.
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May 30, 2023 00:12
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In other news Scorsese met with the pope and promised a Jesus film coming soon. Between him and Schrader putting in work, and Coppola finally making his supposed masterwork, we're living in an interesting time for the old guard of movie making on the eves of their passing on.
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May 30, 2023 00:14
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Gaius Marius posted:In other news Scorsese met with the pope and promised a Jesus film coming soon. i have no idea what this new one is about, but the soundtrack to his first jesus film is one of the best soundtracks of the 80's so i hope he's also meeting with peter gabriel again
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May 30, 2023 00:23
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sube posted:I found that fairly accurate portrayal of people's relation to it, living in a post-communist state. Nothing in it seemed overtly online or insincere to me, honestly
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May 30, 2023 00:26
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Two of the Chapo people did VA work for the OG edition. Trying to say DE wasn't at least in conversation with western online politics is absurd.
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May 30, 2023 00:34
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Has anyone, now that I think of it, ever done a film about Jesus's ministry rather than emphasizing the Passion?
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May 30, 2023 00:45
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Nessus posted:Has anyone, now that I think of it, ever done a film about Jesus's ministry rather than emphasizing the Passion? Pasolini
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May 30, 2023 01:06
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Also Franco Zeffirelli, George Stevens, and Johnny Cash. (Of course, I took the prompt as "covering the whole life of Jesus." They all still deal with the Passion. It's arguably incomplete without the Passion.) Keromaru5 fucked around with this message at 01:20 on May 30, 2023 |
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May 30, 2023 01:16
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Nessus posted:If anything it felt far more realistic to me than most of the idealized town settings a lot of American fiction is rooted in. Even things like Cuno and Cunoesse are realistic. I remember we would take the launch boat go into Klaipėda. Eating at a restaurant on the deck outside there would be begging children “one litas“. Later one would see them running the money to a very shady looking man. Straight out of Oliver Twist. I think this is my biggest problem with GM’s take on it. This setting isn’t an exaggerated cynical malaise. It’s a pretty accurate take on the area ( atleast from what I saw of it almost twenty years ago.) That and that the tone of the whole thing is utterly earnest whichever political flavor one plays it from.
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May 30, 2023 01:26
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Keromaru5 posted:Also Franco Zeffirelli, George Stevens, and Johnny Cash. Imagine how weird a movie that ends with them going to Jérusalem would be.
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May 30, 2023 01:54
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Gaius Marius posted:It's insincere in its presentation. It is irreparably damaged by the post sixties malaise of cynicism that has infected people; it can't talk about the hope of communism or human decency without burying itself in artifice and self censure. The few moments that stand out, like the "date" with the fisherwoman are good, but the majority of the game is filled with dialogue peppered with your pocket full of pickle ricks living in your mind. It's exhausting, it's like watching a film where half your view is obscured by a pillar, or reading a work (good or bad it doesn't particularly matter[although you'd think you'd want to read a good novel] which) that is parenthesized to hell in attempt to get in your cheap jokes and references. Largely because of that I consider it a juvenile work, that is juvenile in character not juvenile as in an authors juvenilia. To anthropomorphize it would give it the character of a shy, edgy teen with strong opinions on things but an inability to voice them productively and a lack of experience to consider such thoughts fully worked out; a child whose gaze is always floorbound while their thoughts heavenbound. How? I don't believe that there is anything bad about being cynical about the things which we love and the world in which we live. Also how do you mean by "artifice" or "self censure" in this instance? Because to me at least it looks more like "this thing has flaws and talking about them and being aware of them is important to doing them". The fact that you regard the emotions as "pickle Rick" level is almost astonishing in how you can see it like that. What makes them "pickle ricks" because I am truly astounded that that is what you got. Volition, Shivers and Inland Empire contain some of the most beautiful expressions and funniest lines I have heard in a given medium, the descriptions of life in a city and of the people that live there are wonderful, and it's very weird to me that you would compare that to a cartoon program with astonishingly little to recommend it. Your definition of Juvenile is also lacking. "Uhhhh it's like as if the author is a teenager" is just not relevant or understandable in this instance. Your entitled to your opinions, but Gods know I am going to call you wrong and, in a lot of ways, just plain unable to understand things. I say this as someone who is not particularly wise, but you seem to have decided to view a work through a certain lens and then been unable to appreciate what is in front of you when it chooses to say things. Well you should, caring about what people think and how they reason is an important part of the human experience IMO. You can disregard it once you've considered it ofc, if you like, but it's good to care about it because it means you care about the person behind it. Gaius Marius posted:Two of the Chapo people did VA work for the OG edition. Trying to say DE wasn't at least in conversation with western online politics is absurd. Sure. But what you seem to be arguing in this instance is that the Tree is only the blossom, whereas everyone else is pointing out that it is also the leaves, the trunk, the roots and the bark. You've focused in on one area you would prefer to criticize as a way of ignoring the larger work because it makes things easier for you.
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May 30, 2023 07:14
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If you think DE has some of the most beautiful expressions in a medium than you need to hit the books. Secondly you don't understand what I mean by juvenile, still. I am not saying the authors are juvenile I'm saying the work is. I cannot make this clearer to you if you aren't willing to undertake the necessary work to understand the metaphor. Imagine a teenager, it is a dance, his name is Disco. He burns with passion, but he cannot express it, his jokes are ill timed and ill advised, he tries to impress women and constantly fails. He fails at most things, most most things, but he laughs it off most the time, self deprecation has become so knee jerk that it fires off unwittingly and near constantly; the laughter he has at himself is merely external, inside he burns with rage at himself and at the world. He's out of shape, tolerable rather than likeable, his glances are surreptitious. He likes the idea of believing more than the act. And above all, he is insecure. Fully and totally insecure in who he is and what he is. DE is a game that is constantly trying too hard, while always trying to pretend it isn't trying. If you still are scratching your head I'd recommend reading some excerpts from DE. Then grabbing some from a very confident writer, someone who can emblazon beauty into your mind with the quill; Nabokov, Faulkner, Mishima, McCarthy or Kawabata. I appreciate that, beautiful flow, rhythm, sensuous text you can feel emerging languorous and unvocalized as you read the text. I do not appreciate constantly breaking rhythm with herky jerky dialogue from the mental choir, crass non jokes, constant self deprecating remarks or any other such things. There is a difference between someone being funny and someone being made fun of, and DE only knows how to operate as the latter. Josef bugman posted:Sure. But what you seem to be arguing in this instance is that the Tree is only the blossom, whereas everyone else is pointing out that it is also the leaves, the trunk, the roots and the bark. You've focused in on one area you would prefer to criticize as a way of ignoring the larger work because it makes things easier for you.
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May 30, 2023 08:14
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I am currently at work so will reply later in more depth. But what I meant about my last comment is that you are trying to say that the game is irony poisoned, because they involve people from an online podcast, whilst people are pointing out that much of the response is more a reflection of the time and place the creators grew up and experienced. Hence why you are confusing the blossom for the whole tree.
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May 30, 2023 09:37
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I didn't bring it up, Nessus did.
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May 30, 2023 09:40
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admittedly i only played 2 or 3 hours of this game, if that, but i dont remember religion coming up in it at all and im very confused as to why this thread is now about it
Earwicker fucked around with this message at 09:46 on May 30, 2023 |
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May 30, 2023 09:43
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I'm too tired Put better, I think art, politics, these things are the new meaning structures people need to deal with life given the collapse of organized religion. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 09:53 on May 30, 2023 |
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May 30, 2023 09:50
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Earwicker posted:admittedly i only played 2 or 3 hours of this game, if that, but i dont remember religion coming up in it at all and im very confused as to why this thread is now about it It is a game about faith but you wouldn't realize it for ten, twelve hours. It's one of its more interesting qualities, near contradictions, that a game that should be rooted firmly in materialism screams out so hard for idealism.
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May 30, 2023 10:14
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Gaius Marius posted:I didn't bring it up, Nessus did. NikkolasKing posted:I'm too tired What's interesting to me in particular is that a lot of the people who reinvent the computer terror future in basically Protestant apocalyptic terms are often, themselves, not Protestant; Eliezer Yudkowsky, one of the big AI posters, was apparently raised as an Orthodox Jew, yet his image of the AI Future holds such a strong analogy to this vaguely Calvinistic horror-show. Are these things just in the seed bank of Western culture now?
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May 30, 2023 14:07
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Earwicker posted:admittedly i only played 2 or 3 hours of this game, if that, but i dont remember religion coming up in it at all and im very confused as to why this thread is now about it This was what I was driving at with my shorter, more dismissive post above. Apologies if I gave anyone offense. Its SA and I should just accept that gameschat will happen everywhere. On another topic, today's WaPo has a fantastic story about the conservative Christian homeschooling movement and one couple's struggle to come to terms with the contradictions their homeschooled indoctrination presented to their own personal sense of right and decency, starting with corporeal punishment of their own children: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/interactive/2023/christian-home-schoolers-revolt/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f002 This one struck a strong chord with me. Although I was able to escape homeschooling--in fact, education was strongly encouraged and my sisters and I were sent to an academic magnet school (thanks the spirit of my great grandfather!), many of my cousins, who married pastors and got deep into quiver full type bullshit, did not. To see how limiting that was on their children in turn is heart breaking. OTOH, I can understand, while strongly, strenuously objecting to, the motivation to "protect their children from the world". Simply, their world view cannot stand on its own in the marketplace of ideas, so you isolate yourself from anything other. My father, no doubt mimicking his own father (the missionary and pastor), tried to convince me to do a two year degree at the bible college he and my mom met at before heading to university. By that point I had established a strong enough identity to refuse (although I needed a lot of time away from university after my first year to learn about life and grow up before I would come back to finish), but reading this couple's story about the isolation they have endured through their crisis of faith and consequent rupture with their family resonated. Their 6 year old astonished that they had never heard of Punxsutawney Phil before highlights that degree of indoctrination. The other thing discussed which contributed to their crisis of faith was the issue of spoiling the rod. They discussed their feelings waiting for their parents to summon them into their room for punishment over some slight, and it brought me back to my own childhood. I was spanked, sure, but never hit with something else. Then an old memory surfaced about one time my own father was mad to the point that he started taking off his belt-I was never struck, the thread was enough for me (and I wonder how it relates to ongoing anxiety issues--note to self get into counseling), but now, I think I was never struck because he was flashing back to a trauma of his own. I wonder if I really remember tears or if this is a manufactured memory. Anyway, the path to hell is lined with good intentions. Thank you for attending my therapy TED talk.
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May 30, 2023 18:54
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https://twitter.com/lilyalta/status/1663593413453676548
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May 30, 2023 21:35
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NikkolasKing posted:I'm too tired ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy i just wrote a theological reflection on this very thing (sort of) too many swears in it tho sinnesloeschen fucked around with this message at 01:30 on May 31, 2023 |
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May 31, 2023 01:28
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“to curse for the sake of God’s Word is just.” - Martin Luther Folks have collected Luther’s myriad curses: https://ergofabulous.org/luther/insult-list.php Some curated favorites. “You do nothing more than latch on to a small word and smear over with your spittle as you please, but meanwhile you do not take into account other texts which overthrow you who smear and spits, so that you are up-ended with all four limbs in the air.” “There you are, like butter in sunshine.” “You dear asses.” “You are admirable, fine, pious sows and asses.” “You are like mouse-dropping in the pepper.” “Listen, you rear end, you are a particularly crass rear end, indeed, you are a filthy sow!” “You vulgar boor, blockhead, and lout, you rear end to cap all asses, screaming your heehaws.”
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May 31, 2023 03:03
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Bilirubin posted:
Let me just say as a teacher, it's not always that an idea is too weak or can't stand in the marketplace of an idea, but that it is true people's attitudes and ideas shift due to peer influence, sometimes for the worse. I have seen in many class many many times good students who get in there, get with friends who are academically disinclined, and that original good student changes their behavior and actions to fit their new friend circle. I have an entire class this year that when it started, was 66% academically motivated students and 33% unmotivated. By the 4th quarter, the poor and belligerent attitudes of the academically unmotivated students had dragged a lot of that 66% into their camp. When I had to deal with very nasty problem behaviors from kids trying to disrupt, I could see on the faces of the acadmically motivated students that they were losing interest and wanted to be anywhere but here, and their work quality started to suffer. Similarly, I'm not going to send my kids to my local public school (we're doing a private Catholic school), for that former and an additional reason; cell phones. The school system has completely given up on trying to enforce phone rules and even a majority of kids in 2nd grade have them at school (according to friends with kids in those grades). I don't want my kid in that environment where academics are so completely disrupted, so I'm sending them elsewhere (Plus its our parish school, so there's a community and religious aspect). Perhaps I've missed your original point (And I haven't read the WAPO article, honestly), but I don't think "protecting your kids from the outside world" is always because your ideas are fragile or bad. In the WAPO article from the summary they might be. It might also be that there are some deleterious aspects in the wider world you don't want your kid exposed to. Lot of tech company executives banned tech inside their own house for similar, non-religious reasons.
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May 31, 2023 18:08
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The homeschooling people in this case were almost literally terrified of their kids being exposed to godless etc. etc. not phones; evolution or the existence of other religions and such. So fair point on your end but not the thrust of the write up. It’s a good un though.
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May 31, 2023 18:38
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There’s quite a lot of broiling unhappiness over schools and the pandemic, and in some places curriculums are very legislated with little deviation allowed which is a pocket if one has ND kids. Remote was a massive failure and it’s basically gone unacknowledged and in many places they’ve basically just given up on trying to fix the problems it caused. This of course is being used by the right to do racism.
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May 31, 2023 19:15
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Bar Ran Dun posted:There’s quite a lot of broiling unhappiness over schools and the pandemic, and in some places curriculums are very legislated with little deviation allowed which is a pocket if one has ND kids. 'It is this collective trauma, the abject failures of technocracy, capitalism, ‘’democratic representative government’’, the myths of white supremacy, American and Western exceptionalism, and failure of “the shining city on the hill” that’s enabled and inspired a lot of analog horror (and adjacent weird ARG projects) which have beautifully showcased the incredible talent, ability, skill, diversity, and passion of regular-rear end people; people who are trying to make sense of a world that is now not only senseless, but actively hostile to rising generations... Why should any of them trust any of us, for anything, at all?... [U]ntil we (and yeah, I mean WE) acknowledge our failures, admit our mistakes out loud, and start walking the Jesus walk as opposed to just using Jesus as a cudgel for moronic, hateful, bigoted, and spiteful ‘’culture war’’ paradigm, we – and the beautiful and precious things we hold dear – this fragile earth, our island home, treating other people as whole and complete human beings, the beauty and diversity of our shared lived existence, and true, honest, and vulnerable community -- where all are fed, all are clothed, all have a safe and warm home, and all are acknowledged for who they are instead of the stupid cookie cutter capitalism and religious dogma that has forced us to abandon hope for our future – will die. All the things we know will die. All our ideas will die. All the work we’ve done will die. And it will get worse.'
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May 31, 2023 21:26
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Nessus posted:The homeschooling people in this case were almost literally terrified of their kids being exposed to godless etc. etc. not phones; evolution or the existence of other religions and such. Thank you for addressing that much more eloquently than I would have. To that I would add that in the portion that I wrote that the reply to me quoted I was specifically addressing the alienation from the family one endures from breaking away from that received social structure, which in the case presented in the article came from literally isolating their children from all ideas outside their world view via home schooling. I deleted the rest of the post however as I think I was being a bit overactive. I have some stressors in my life right now and occasionally they show themselves in inappropriate ways, as I think they did here. I don't wish to harm the vibe of this thread. Bilirubin fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Jun 1, 2023 |
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Jun 1, 2023 06:55
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sinnesloeschen posted:'It is this collective trauma, the abject failures of technocracy, capitalism, ‘’democratic representative government’’, the myths of white supremacy, American and Western exceptionalism, and failure of “the shining city on the hill” that’s enabled and inspired a lot of analog horror (and adjacent weird ARG projects) which have beautifully showcased the incredible talent, ability, skill, diversity, and passion of regular-rear end people; people who are trying to make sense of a world that is now not only senseless, but actively hostile to rising generations... Why should any of them trust any of us, for anything, at all?... [U]ntil we (and yeah, I mean WE) acknowledge our failures, admit our mistakes out loud, and start walking the Jesus walk as opposed to just using Jesus as a cudgel for moronic, hateful, bigoted, and spiteful ‘’culture war’’ paradigm, we – and the beautiful and precious things we hold dear – this fragile earth, our island home, treating other people as whole and complete human beings, the beauty and diversity of our shared lived existence, and true, honest, and vulnerable community -- where all are fed, all are clothed, all have a safe and warm home, and all are acknowledged for who they are instead of the stupid cookie cutter capitalism and religious dogma that has forced us to abandon hope for our future – will die. All the things we know will die. All our ideas will die. All the work we’ve done will die. And it will get worse.' meanwhile, among the crowd that gives Paul way too much credit: https://www.standingforfreedom.com/2023/05/some-people-deserve-to-starve-a-biblical-view-of-work-and-welfare/
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Jun 2, 2023 00:52
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St. John Chrysostom posted:I do not say these things haphazardly now, but rather because many are often overly intrusive in their investigation of the needy. They examine their lineage, life, habits, vocation and the vigor of their body. They make complaints and demand immense public scrutiny for their health. For this precise reason, many of the poor simulate physical disabilities, so that by dramatizing their misfortunes they may deflect our cruelty and inhumanity. And although when it is summertime, it is terrible to make these complaints, it is not quite so dreadful. However, during the frost and the cold, for someone to become such a savage and inhuman judge and not impart any forgiveness to the unemployed, does this not involve extreme cruelty? “Therefore, what did Paul ordain by law,” they say, “when he said to the Thessalonians, ’If any one does not wish to work, neither let him eat’?” So that you, too, may also hear these things, you should discuss the words of Paul not only with the poor individual but even with yourself. For the laws of Paul are laid down not only for the poor but also for all. Let me say something burdensome and grievous. I know that you will grow angry. Nevertheless, I will say it; for I do not say it to strike you but to correct you. We criticize them for their laziness, something which is worthy of forgiveness for the most part. However, we too often do things which are even more grievous than any laziness…. Therefore, when you say, “What then shall we say to Paul?” converse with yourself, too, and say these things not only to the poor. Read not only the threat of punishment but also Paul’s admonition to forgiveness, for the one who said, “If anyone does not wish to work, neither let him eat,” added, “And you, brothers, do not lose heart in doing good.”
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Jun 2, 2023 01:57
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Bilirubin posted:Thank you for addressing that much more eloquently than I would have. To that I would add that in the portion that I wrote that the reply to me quoted I was specifically addressing the alienation from the family one endures from breaking away from that received social structure, which in the case presented in the article came from literally isolating their children from all ideas outside their world view via home schooling. 
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Jun 2, 2023 02:19
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lol
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Jun 2, 2023 04:44
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shame on an IGA posted:meanwhile, among the crowd that gives Paul way too much credit: i would like for this writer to be slowly lowered into a vat of bleach until he is dead
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Jun 2, 2023 15:51
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I mean, how can you read the Gospels and then well acktually yourself into that position? (I know how, my church had basically elevated Paul above the gospels too)
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Jun 2, 2023 15:54
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At that point isn’t it Paulism not Christianity ?
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Jun 2, 2023 16:05
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