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Thirteen Orphans posted:I think eating absolutely has moral considerations. Sure, individual acts of eating like if you're a vegan or something. But then also individual acts of sex have moral consideration like rape or power dynamics or whatever. But eating as a whole is just a biological necessity and does not receive the blanket condemnation of sex. Basically, the default for sex should be "whatever" just like with eating and then we can scrutinize the odd instance of eating or sex that is perhaps immoral.
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# ? May 8, 2021 20:53 |
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# ? Apr 24, 2024 10:24 |
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Unfortunately as they say, poo poo happens when you party naked.
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# ? May 8, 2021 23:21 |
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Dang, I'm sorry I slept on this thread over the last few weeks. You folks had some good conversation. I observed Walpurgisnacht with libation and burning many cigars with friends over Discord. I followed it by attending a double feature of Midsommar and Alucarda at a drive-in on May Day. My birthday was also mid-April. One's birthday and Walpurgisnacht are the main holidays of modern Satanism, so this time of the year is always laden with celebration for me.
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# ? May 9, 2021 10:06 |
NikkolasKing posted:I consider myself fairly conservative but if there is one aspect of conservatism that has never made sense to me, it's the anti-sex thing. No doubt this hatred for sex is why progressives tend to valorize it. Neither view has any merit. Sex is like eating or pooping, just something that happens and we move on. It does not deserve any special moral consideration, either for or against. I think sexuality deserves consideration but it is a question on what that consideration should be. I would take issue with it not deserving particular consideration. It can cause profound emotional impacts on yourself and on others! People will die or kill themselves over it, by inches or all at once! They don't do that over whether or not they should eat onions or shrimp. BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:there's a definite strain among conservatives, Scalia being the most prominent example, that really really likes using big words needlessly and its always struck me as coming from a place of insecurity where they're aware of how much the intelligentsia leans left/liberal and thinks knowing what munificent means validates their opinions. Nessus fucked around with this message at 10:56 on May 9, 2021 |
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# ? May 9, 2021 10:43 |
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I'd love to learn a bit more about animals in religions. In Buddhism, are animals part of the cycle of rebirth? Do they have the same sort of 'soul' or 'spirit' as humans do? Is that whole 'reborn as a snail because you were bad' joke reflected anywhere? I'd love to hear about it from a practitioner. Aw CarpenterWalrus, isn't that a bit like having your birthday right near Christmas?
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# ? May 9, 2021 12:54 |
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In Mahayana thought all creatures are capable of understanding the dharma and achieving nirvana. There is no soul in buddhism but alll beings possess a buddha-nature. There are 6 "worlds" a being can be reborn into. They are the realm of Gods (Heaven), the relam of Demi-gods (Asura), the realm of humans, the realm of animals, the realm of hungry ghosts who have an overwhelming obssession of some kind that can never be filled , and hell. They are arranged like a pyramid where as you go up Gods has the fewest beings but the most pleasure (it still experiences suffering thougjh) while Hell has the most beings and the most suffering. All beings in the 6 worlds are impermanent, when you are in heaven you are not there forever but will eventually die and be reborn based on the unmanifested karma from your time in heaven. As a british person (I assume based on your name) a good way to think about is like the promotion/relegation system in Football. If you do poorly you get knocked down, if you do well bumped up and if you're midtable you stay where you are next season. Now a 6th level football club is going to have an extremely difficult time making its way to the premiership because while in theory its possible in real life they're going to not have enough money or fans to sign the kinds of players they'd need. In buddhism too there are not as many opportunities for a being in hell to gain the karma necessary to be promoted to the next world, not only that but the only role models they have are other beings in hell. Because of this you have a lot of practices, rituals and doctrines which are based around loving around with Karma that the buddhas and bodhissatvas set up due to the unfairness of the karmic system (the buddhas are not creator gods so there's no theological issues with buddhists just going yeah no this system does suck thats why we're trying to undermine it.) So Kshitigarbha for example despite having insanely good merit dwells by choice in the lowest level of hell where the worst of the worst live so that they can learn how to escape the cycle of existence or at least hell. Amitabha, whose name the monks and goose are reciting in that video swore a vow that anyone who asks will be taken upon death to a special "pure land" where there are no distractions of any kind at the end of which they will either escape existence or return to Samsara as a boddhisatva to help others. In buddhism the goal is to either escape Samsara or become a buddha depending on the school so generally overly focusing on karma and where you can be reborn as isn't helpful. Humans are actually considered the best world in buddhist philosophy because the Gods and Demigods tend to have little desire to escape Samsara or do good works that will prevent them from falling to the hell worlds due to being too sheltered to understand how omnipresent suffering is.
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# ? May 9, 2021 18:28 |
My understanding, to follow up a little on BFD's excellent post, is that pet animals - especially in monasteries - have a pretty excellent ride, because the main negative karmic act an animal undertakes is killing other animals, and a dog who is getting fed out of the magical kibble bucket with the occasional piece of chicken will either have no cause to kill, or will kill like two mice out of enthusiasm, rather than "constantly, due to hunger." While Mr. Honks here does not understand Buddhist theology, he no doubt does understand that the local humans are doing something and he is trying to do it with them, which is an intentional act - and since the animal realm is so close to the human realm he would likely benefit greatly from it.
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# ? May 9, 2021 20:46 |
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Thank you very much, both for the football analogy, and for the knowledge that the goose is probably doing very well.
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# ? May 9, 2021 21:01 |
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Nessus posted:I believe it is partly because sexuality in general tends to evoke powerful emotions - perhaps the most powerful, on average (though individuals vary) - and partly because most of the sexual requirements tend to be easily distilled into power relations. I suspect they are also understood as power relationships internally, although I would not make more than a general statement on that. That's not about the sex, though. People aren't going to kill themselves over a Tinder hookup failing. They might kill themselves over a prolonged series of sexual failures, or a hard break-up with their partner, but in both cases it's less about sex than something much more important.
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# ? May 10, 2021 00:55 |
NikkolasKing posted:That's not about the sex, though. People aren't going to kill themselves over a Tinder hookup failing. They might kill themselves over a prolonged series of sexual failures, or a hard break-up with their partner, but in both cases it's less about sex than something much more important.
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# ? May 10, 2021 01:20 |
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Considering suicide the only fail state is also really weird. Granted I find modern sexual politics to be repulsive. Hookup culture is leading to a large amount of very unhappy people. That said I don't think most religions are anti sex. Moreso their anti sex before marriage, you wouldn't consider Christianity anti food because it tells us to fast.
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# ? May 10, 2021 01:27 |
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Nessus posted:I think if you are considering sex only in the sense of 'genital stimulation to the point of orgasm or fatigue' you are really not considering sex as humans experience it. What is sex if not sexual intercourse...? I agree sex should be more but those people who are spending all days at gloryholes or meeting each other via apps aren't looking for deep, spiritual connections. They just wanna put their penis in something or have a penis or finger or dildo put in them, probably to help obliterate the feeling of meaninglessness in their lives. Gaius Marius posted:Considering suicide the only fail state is also really weird. Granted I find modern sexual politics to be repulsive. Hookup culture is leading to a large amount of very unhappy people. And homosexuals and other forms of non-procreative sex? The greatest Catch-22 of all of it is they'll say don't gently caress but also don't masturbate which helps mediate the desire to gently caress. So people are just left sewing in agony. It's very apparent that the simple desire for sex is considered wrong. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 01:35 on May 10, 2021 |
# ? May 10, 2021 01:32 |
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NikkolasKing posted:And homosexuals and other forms of non-procreative sex? You're making a lot of sweeping generalizations that you really should not be. I would honestly tell you to take a step back and drop your preconceived notions, This is quite possibly the only entirely sincere Thread on this website. Rolling up to the thread and saying all of religion is anti sex is not a great way to start a conversation. Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 01:47 on May 10, 2021 |
# ? May 10, 2021 01:36 |
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NikkolasKing posted:It's very apparent that the simple desire for sex is considered wrong. There's a whole book of the bible about how awesome boning is.
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# ? May 10, 2021 01:40 |
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NikkolasKing posted:What is sex if not sexual intercourse...? You're making some pretty extreme (and kinda gross tbh) exaggerations and assumptions here. I think you could just stop at "people looking for casual sex are probably not looking for deep, spiritual connections from those interactions" and leave it there.
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# ? May 10, 2021 01:49 |
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NikkolasKing posted:What is sex if not sexual intercourse...? A whole lot. Sex and the maintenance of a relationship(s?) are not separate things. I mean we want to separate them, we try to separate them, but people get burned hard. If I wake up early to care for the kids, affects my sex like. The care and effort of listening and talking with my spouse, affects my sex life. Now it’s different for different people. Different parts of relationships and even negative acts in relationships affect peoples sex lives. The various rules and prohibitions in religion about sex are problematic because they are universalized yet originate from specific time periods and specific cultures. So that ends up hurting people. But they point to the idea that how we treat each other and how we act towards each other is tied up with having sex and trying to have healthy relationships.
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# ? May 10, 2021 01:52 |
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Gaius Marius posted:You're making a lot of sweeping generalizations that you really should not be. I never said anything like "all of religion is anti-sex". We're talking about our Christian society here, not India or Japan and what Hinduism or Buddhism say on sex. (and of course there being a billion sects of both of them, many of which have their own sacred texts, complicates any statement of that kind) Bar Ran Dun posted:A whole lot. Sex and the maintenance of a relationship(s?) are not separate things. I mean we want to separate them, we try to separate them, but people get burned hard. If I wake up early to care for the kids, affects my sex like. The care and effort of listening and talking with my spouse, affects my sex life. And the folks who are on Tinder or Grindr? This is all really on my mind because a Twitch streamer I follow recently recounted a story of meeting a guy via Grindr. The dude didn't have any furniture so they ended up having to gently caress on the floor. Also the guy ruined the whole thing by saying "your mom's dead? I'm so sorry." It was a very weird story. But it was clear, for him, that this was just...sex. Physical contact of genitals. No deeper meaning at all. So do you think all sex has to have the things you speak of and folks like that streamer are mistaken?
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# ? May 10, 2021 02:14 |
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NikkolasKing posted:I never said anything like "all of religion is anti-sex". We're talking about our Christian society here, not India or Japan and what Hinduism or Buddhism say on sex. (and of course there being a billion sects of both of them, many of which have their own sacred texts, complicates any statement of that kind) You're still being too sweeping in your generalisation here. Whose Christian society? I'm a British-Irish Roman Catholic, for example. That's not the same 'Christian society' as an evangelical Midwesterner, or a Presbyterian Scotsman, or even a Roman Catholic Italian.
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# ? May 10, 2021 02:20 |
NikkolasKing posted:What is sex if not sexual intercourse...?
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# ? May 10, 2021 02:26 |
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So I just wanna apologize and say I probably went overboard. HopperUK posted:You're still being too sweeping in your generalisation here. Whose Christian society? I'm a British-Irish Roman Catholic, for example. That's not the same 'Christian society' as an evangelical Midwesterner, or a Presbyterian Scotsman, or even a Roman Catholic Italian. But as it pertains to this, I have heard the Church of England is pretty liberal in this kinda thing. But no Catholic authority I've ever read or spoken to has anything good to say about sex outside of the supreme exception of marriage and procreation. Which is not good but it really is the "masturbation is a sin" idea that irks me most deeply. I don't like the idea of people having casuals ex but the best way to prevent that is encouraging masturbation.
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# ? May 10, 2021 02:51 |
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NikkolasKing posted:And the folks who are on Tinder or Grindr? This is all really on my mind because a Twitch streamer I follow recently recounted a story of meeting a guy via Grindr. The dude didn't have any furniture so they ended up having to gently caress on the floor. Also the guy ruined the whole thing by saying "your mom's dead? I'm so sorry." It was a very weird story. Even in that story: “Also the guy ruined the whole thing by saying "your mom's dead? I'm so sorry. In other-words the degree of human intimacy was connected to sex and disproportionately between the two people. And “deeper meaning” isn’t what I’m on about here. Our expectations regarding how we should treat each other is tied up with sex.
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# ? May 10, 2021 03:39 |
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NikkolasKing posted:
Catholic teaching is that sex has a particular place, yeah. I don't really agree with how strict it is. But I also am not sure of your premise there. Does masturbation prevent casual sex? Seems unlikely to me. E: even then my point was that 'our Christian culture' is a meaningless phrase unless you're specifying which one and whose because it's different all over the place.
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# ? May 10, 2021 04:34 |
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HopperUK posted:Catholic teaching is that sex has a particular place, yeah. I don't really agree with how strict it is. But I also am not sure of your premise there. Does masturbation prevent casual sex? Seems unlikely to me. There's a very crude term I see online but it is accurate. "Post-nut clarity." Things that seemed so pressing to me when aroused are utterly worthless afterward. If a guy is craving sex to the point he would throw himself at anybody to alleviate that need, jerking off is the surest remedy. I'm only one man but I can testify it has worked and kept me from doing dumb, dumb things. quote:E: even then my point was that 'our Christian culture' is a meaningless phrase unless you're specifying which one and whose because it's different all over the place. That's fair. Sorry.
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# ? May 10, 2021 06:43 |
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NikkolasKing posted:What is sex if not sexual intercourse...? Sex is fun and, like all fun things, people can and do become emotionally invested in it. If you're speaking about American Conservatism, then you're arguing from the premise that all sex should only be utilitarian. This has its basis in the American brand of Protestantism, but you're confusing it with international Catholicism, which regulates sex for very different reasons. Ultimately, religions which try to control how people engage sexually do so because that's an excellent way to control their behavior, in general. You control how and when people gently caress and you can get them to do basically whatever you want. Also, dude, I'm really bummed out on your behalf if you've never found sex to be anything other than mechanically satisfying. NikkolasKing posted:
Edit: This is also a pretty hosed up take. It's not helpful to assume that everyone who gets their rocks off in a different way from you is shallow and desperate. Edited for clarity CarpenterWalrus fucked around with this message at 18:42 on May 10, 2021 |
# ? May 10, 2021 17:53 |
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CarpenterWalrus posted:Ultimately, religions try to control how people engage sexually because that's an excellent way to control their behavior generally. . I see this claim on the internet, and only there, a lot and it infuriates me how disingenious it is. While I don't doubt that there are cults that do so, I have never ever met a religion that wants to control people. Yes, some commandments and rules might be very strict, depending on the religion, and yes, some people are power hungry or otherwise want to control others and yes, sometimes the power hungry people are religious people. But it sounds like a conspiracy theory that a religion wants to control people. Who does that even mean, exactly? Who does that accusation target? I'm deeply religious and I believe that the world would be a better place if people were more responsible in their lives which naturally includes their sex lives. Do I want to control people? Heck no, that's completely the opposite of why I am religious in the first place. I, until recently, teached teenagers. Those teachings included relatively conservative (for this forum) biblical values regarding sexual behaviours. I know there is no secret cabal in my religion that makes up rules to control people so I feel personally attacked. Who else could it even mean, except us who try to teach what we believe and why?
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# ? May 10, 2021 18:25 |
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CarpenterWalrus posted:Ultimately, religions try to control how people engage sexually because that's an excellent way to control their behavior generally. You control how and when people gently caress and you can get them to do basically whatever you want.
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# ? May 10, 2021 18:29 |
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Valiantman posted:I see this claim on the internet, and only there, a lot and it infuriates me how disingenious it is. While I don't doubt that there are cults that do so, I have never ever met a religion that wants to control people. Yes, some commandments and rules might be very strict, depending on the religion, and yes, some people are power hungry or otherwise want to control others and yes, sometimes the power hungry people are religious people. But it sounds like a conspiracy theory that a religion wants to control people. Most Christian sects control how and under what circumstances people have sex. Sex before marriage is a sin (PS only the right kind of marriage counts). Sex for fun is a sin. Sex between same-sex people is a sin. Masturbation is a sin. In some sects, sexual excitement and fantasy are lumped in with "adultery" and "covetous thought." Sexual "purity" is a powerful concept to the American Christian and great pains are taken to adhere to that idea. It seems difficult to believe that you'd be unaware of things like purity vows, purity rings, purity balls, girls signing over their virginal purity to their fathers, the Christian side-hug, etc., if you're deeply religious. These things aren't secret at all. Based on some of your spelling, you probably aren't American. The CoE very famously forbade divorce to the point that death and murder was the preferable alternative. Is this not an attempt to control how people have sex? The Catholic Church forbids birth control, either as a means of maintaining their population or by ensuring pregnancy as a punishment for sex, or encouraging Catholic marriages by saying having children out of wedlock is sinful. Again, these policies aren't secret. It's worth examining why you, personally, feel attacked by recognizing these things.
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# ? May 10, 2021 18:36 |
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You've a good point here, I can absolutely reword this to be more clear.
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# ? May 10, 2021 18:40 |
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TIL apparently Buddha prescribed cow urine as a medicine for most/all diseases and ailments. It's one of the Buddha's most ignored teachings. http://www.meditation2.net/htdocs/Books9/Bhikkhu_Dhammajiva_The_Buddha_Medicine.htm I don't have a better link, was just told this offhand
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# ? May 10, 2021 19:06 |
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Fritz the Horse posted:TIL apparently Buddha prescribed cow urine as a medicine for most/all diseases and ailments. It's one of the Buddha's most ignored teachings. Haha! I knew that sounded familiar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4GdnDZhUMo
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# ? May 10, 2021 19:10 |
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CarpenterWalrus posted:Most Christian sects control how and under what circumstances people have sex. Sex before marriage is a sin (PS only the right kind of marriage counts). Sex for fun is a sin. Sex between same-sex people is a sin. Masturbation is a sin. In some sects, sexual excitement and fantasy are lumped in with "adultery" and "covetous thought." Sexual "purity" is a powerful concept to the American Christian and great pains are taken to adhere to that idea. It seems difficult to believe that you'd be unaware of things like purity vows, purity rings, purity balls, girls signing over their virginal purity to their fathers, the Christian side-hug, etc., if you're deeply religious. These things aren't secret at all. I don't even know where to start with this other than to say you have a flawed and very narrow understanding of the way Christianity views sex
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# ? May 10, 2021 19:49 |
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CarpenterWalrus posted:Most Christian sects control how and under what circumstances people have sex. Sex before marriage is a sin (PS only the right kind of marriage counts). Sex for fun is a sin. Sex between same-sex people is a sin. Masturbation is a sin. In some sects, sexual excitement and fantasy are lumped in with "adultery" and "covetous thought." Sexual "purity" is a powerful concept to the American Christian and great pains are taken to adhere to that idea. It seems difficult to believe that you'd be unaware of things like purity vows, purity rings, purity balls, girls signing over their virginal purity to their fathers, the Christian side-hug, etc., if you're deeply religious. These things aren't secret at all. valiantman is finnish church of england exists because henry viii wanted to get a divorce (among other things don't hate episcopals)
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# ? May 10, 2021 19:54 |
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Slimy Hog posted:I don't even know where to start with this other than to say you have a flawed and very narrow understanding of the way Christianity views sex Please elaborate! As far as I know, I haven't said anything that's factually incorrect. You might argue about WHY Christianity regulates sex among its adherents, but to say that Christianity doesn't have those regulations, rules, and laws is demonstrably false. The whole point of this thread is elucidation and I welcome correction.
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# ? May 10, 2021 19:56 |
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Here’s a point to start thinking about how complicated an issue sex in Christianity is: Carnaval
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# ? May 10, 2021 20:01 |
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Smoking Crow posted:valiantman is finnish This is insightful, thank you! A quick search also shows that the CoE only allowed divorced people to get remarried starting in 2002, and at priests' discretion. Seems along the same lines as Catholicism outright banning divorce. It's also worth being very clear that I am not out to offend or attack anyone. I'm placing no value judgement on how religions regulate sex among their believers, only that many do, since that seemed to be a point of contention earlier in the thread.
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# ? May 10, 2021 20:01 |
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Here’s a point to start thinking about how complicated an issue sex in Christianity is: Carnaval I've always understood Carnaval and celebrations like it to be sort of release-valves for otherwise pent-up and repressed urges. They typically come just before or after periods of abstinence like Lent, right? On a smaller scale, evangelicals hold revivals in the same tents, on the same grounds, with the same organ player and audience as carnivals. Anton LaVey was inspired to write the Satanic Bible in part because he played organ for both the carnivals and preachers and saw the same people going to both events: first to get freaky, then to repent. And, just because the Church allows carnival, carnivale, carnaval, etc. to exist, doesn't mean that they condone the typically promiscuous activity that happens there. I still see carnaval/carnival as part of the cycle of guilt/forgiveness that is Christianity's bread and butter.
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# ? May 10, 2021 20:12 |
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CarpenterWalrus posted:I've always understood Carnaval and celebrations like it to be sort of release-valves for otherwise pent-up and repressed urges. They typically come just before or after periods of abstinence like Lent, right? On a smaller scale, evangelicals hold revivals in the same tents, on the same grounds, with the same organ player and audience as carnivals. Anton LaVey was inspired to write the Satanic Bible in part because he played organ for both the carnivals and preachers and saw the same people going to both events: first to get freaky, then to repent. And, just because the Church allows carnival, carnivale, carnaval, etc. to exist, doesn't mean that they condone the typically promiscuous activity that happens there. I still see carnaval/carnival as part of the cycle of guilt/forgiveness that is Christianity's bread and butter. guilt: butter forgiveness: bread grace: toaster??
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# ? May 10, 2021 20:14 |
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Fritz the Horse posted:guilt: butter With a delightful side of catharsis or potato salad, depending on where your church is.
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# ? May 10, 2021 20:16 |
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CarpenterWalrus posted:I've always understood Carnaval and celebrations like it to be sort of release-valves for otherwise pent-up and repressed urges. They typically come just before or after periods of abstinence like Lent, right? On a smaller scale, evangelicals hold revivals in the same tents, on the same grounds, with the same organ player and audience as carnivals. Anton LaVey was inspired to write the Satanic Bible in part because he played organ for both the carnivals and preachers and saw the same people going to both events: first to get freaky, then to repent. And, just because the Church allows carnival, carnivale, carnaval, etc. to exist, doesn't mean that they condone the typically promiscuous activity that happens there. I still see carnaval/carnival as part of the cycle of guilt/forgiveness that is Christianity's bread and butter. You do realize you're talking about practices that have existed in entirely different times, cultures, and contexts, right? Even if that overly simplistic answer was in fact the majority reason behind one such practice in one particular context, it wouldn't explain them all. It's almost like painting the world's largest religion as exactly the same everywhere is overly simplistic!
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# ? May 10, 2021 20:19 |
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# ? Apr 24, 2024 10:24 |
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CarpenterWalrus posted:Please elaborate! As far as I know, I haven't said anything that's factually incorrect. You might argue about WHY Christianity regulates sex among its adherents, but to say that Christianity doesn't have those regulations, rules, and laws is demonstrably false. The whole point of this thread is elucidation and I welcome correction. I'm not going to address all the points in your post because I don't have time, but here are a few: 1) Your response to someone asking you to explain quote:Ultimately, religions try to control how people engage sexually because that's an excellent way to control their behavior generally. You control how and when people gently caress and you can get them to do basically whatever you want. Is to say a bunch of stuff about Christianity. 2) Saying "Sex for fun is a sin" is just silly 3) Equating Conservative American Evangelical Christianity to all of Christianity is nonsense. 4) Ending your post with "It's worth examining why you, personally, feel attacked by recognizing these things" doesn't sound like you "welcome correction"
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# ? May 10, 2021 20:25 |