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Hiro Protagonist posted:How do people in this thread deal with the constructed nature of Christianity? So much of what Christians take for granted theologically is the result of centuries of discussion and argument from people who based their thoughts on their assumptions. While it was originally focused entirely on Jewish issues and identity, it quickly focused on Roman theological concerns and developed alongside that culture's assumptions, both logical and cosmic. If the Trinity and Jesus' relationship to God are both developed from a worldview we no longer agree with, can they still be valid? Respectfully, you're begging the question. "How do people in this thread deal with Christianity being all made up?" "No." (Or "Mu." or "n/a" or "NAN", or "divide by cucumber error", take your pick.) "If Jesus's relationship to God is developed from a worldview we no longer agree with, is that still a valid theological concept?" Well gosh, it would be interesting to discuss whether the doctrine of Jesus's relationship to God was developed from a worldview, or whether we agree with that worldview today, or whether the development was itself a disagreement with the worldview, and I think we could probably have an interesting conversation about whether theological concepts can be valid or invalid, too, but I can't answer that question either. Many people in this thread think that we're all approaching God in our own ways, and that God is merely pleased that we are trying to approach, and none of us are entirely correct or entirely wrong, &c. &c. I do not; I think we are only able to approach God because God first approached us, and correspondingly there are some doctrines that are more correct than others. When verifying that "mu" is the response I wanted to your questions, I came across this quote of Isaac Asimov's: "When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." To me, the same principle holds for religion; right now we "see indistinctly, as in a mirror", right now we only "know partially", and it's only when we're in Heaven (and, God willing, we'll all be there together) that we'll "know fully, as [we are] fully known", but that doesn't mean that every blurry glimpse of the truth is equally blurry.
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Jan 15, 2021 04:29
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Hiro Protagonist posted:How do people in this thread deal with the constructed nature of Christianity? So much of what Christians take for granted theologically is the result of centuries of discussion and argument from people who based their thoughts on their assumptions. But more broadly, I can look at St. Irenaeus, St. Basil, or St. John Damascene and recognize the same faith as St. Porphyrios, St. Silouan, or St. Maria of Paris. This is part of why I no longer take Elaine Pagels seriously (since she came up earlier); in her book on Revelation, she portrays St. Anthony of Egypt as some kind of crypto-Gnostic based on his letters, when if anything, nothing he says would be out of place in the entirely Orthodox Philokalia. And the ascetic practices of the Orthodox Church, the beliefs about prayer, sin, and theosis, and the overall framework of salvation quite simply make sense to me as a framework for Christian belief. Plus I am reasonably convinced that the Virgin Mary has answered a few of my prayers. Nothing earth-shattering, but still meaningful to me.
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Jan 15, 2021 05:02
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ThePopeOfFun posted:I would like to read about this! What's your source(s) you're referring to? In general if you asked the church fathers how old the earth was, they'd have probably shrugged and given you a young figure based on the geneaologies in the bible. From their writings, they would not have been particularly dogmatic about it. Often the issue was more "did creation take six literal days, or was it instantaneous?" With no science to speak of and the salvation of souls not depending on the answer, it wasn't something they worried about much. What they did care about was that the world was created, and cutely enough this caused some science/church friction when it was discovered that the universe did in fact began to exist (as the church had maintained) as opposed to the universe always existing as was the general secular scientific opinion before the big bang theory was originated (by a Catholic priest!) But certainly ancient Christian figures like Origen and Augustine of Hippo noticed many things like the Genesis account discussing days, evenings, and mornings before the creation of the sun and concluding that the account was deeper than a dry recounting of events. Here's a long quote from Augustine of Hippo, in a work called "On the Literal Meaning of Genesis". I don't claim that he taught an old earth (he didn't), but that he was more than willing to be open to deeper meanings in the text. Augustine of Hippo posted:Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.
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Jan 15, 2021 05:17
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Night10194 posted:They were when I was a kid, so I was just following my family at the time. I drifted into agnostic in high school because I was like 'eh, this seems like nonsense if you can change that often' and then later back out of it because one of my professors in college actually addressed some of my main objections to the factual truth of the Gospels. Specifically that they're not meant as historic accounts as it is and that ideas about literalism are new, that they're theological documents trying to express the religious truth of Christ and preach to others. Learning how new Biblical Literalism is was one of the things that brought me back to Christianity. I wasn't raised as a Biblical Literalist, but I didn't have the knowledge to respond with anything more than "The Bible isn't meant to be taken literally" when people pointed out scientific errors or contradictions. Two other things that got me away from Atheism were: 1. seeing a guy riding around on his bike on college campus shouting New Atheist talking points to no one in particular. 2. A video where Christopher Hitchens questioned the Koran by asking why God would choose to give a backwards culture like the Arabs his final revelation instead of a more advanced one like the Chinese, or Greeks, or just about anyone other than the Arabs.
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Jan 15, 2021 05:19
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White Coke posted:Learning how new Biblical Literalism is was one of the things that brought me back to Christianity. I wasn't raised as a Biblical Literalist, but I didn't have the knowledge to respond with anything more than "The Bible isn't meant to be taken literally" when people pointed out scientific errors or contradictions. My favorite story is when I was doing a year at a small Catholic university and while walking around I heard someone who was declaiming with great vigor that he was a Christian TO THE CORE!!! while I was walking past - not addressing me, of course. I paused, because they seemed to be a pause, and I said to him: "You're a Christian, deep down?" He affirmed that he was. I asked if I could have his coat.
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Jan 15, 2021 05:40
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Anglican. Canadian. Priest. I did some of my training in the United States so my bad posts can keep up with US religion chat on occasion, but I mostly just lurk and wait for someone to post about liturgy or the Anglican Communion to post. Full disclosure, I own a silly hat.
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Jan 15, 2021 06:03
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PantlessBadger posted:Anglican. Canadian. Priest. So do I, but it comes from the English academic tradition so its not very pointy. Back 15 generations or so ago I even have a Anglican minister in my ancestry! So, its complicated, and I hope I don't overshare here. I was born into an American ultra dispensationalist evangelical church, and wound up leaving it because of my getting into a fight with a deacon when 16 over evolution in Sunday School. (In real conservative tradition he "challenged me to a debate" so the following week be brought a book by Duane Gish whereas I dumped a 5 pound bag of fossils on the table.) It was a bit of an issue because my grandparents were long term missionaries in the Congo and somewhat prominent in the church but whatev. My siblings have also both left the church since (although one is Buddhist now) whereas my parents are now in a prosperity mega church, fully sucked into the FOX reality. Anyway on my way to my current agnostic-atheist world view I spent a few years studying in a hermetic school, which made the break easier for me. I still love the tradition and pageantry of religion (as well as the sense of community) and with my formerly catholic partner will tune into Mass on various holidays whenever the mood strikes. What I really enjoy though is the theological/philosophical side of things and have Augustine's Confessions on my bedside as next to be read. I am also quite into textural scholarship (as lay reading, not my area of expertise). I never bought into nu-Atheism because I will never reject the personal meaning folks find in the experience of their lives, and have fully embraced a Matthew 7:16-20 of people in general. IOW I've become much more orthodox in my views as an atheist 
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Jan 15, 2021 07:17
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Nessus posted:I do believe that old Jehovy has shown a tendency to shine his light upon the small rather than the great, based on a cursory knowledge of Bible stories. Well that and the Arabs in the time of Muhammed were in direct contact with the Roman and Persian empires, not to mention the Horn of Africa and India which also had "advanced" civilizations. It was just racist presentism on Hitchens's part. I wasn't a New Atheist, but it really opened my eyes to how bad they could be, and by extension how Atheists could perpetuate the kinds of bigotries that they blame on religion.
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Jan 15, 2021 09:00
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zonohedron posted:
I am reminded of the Church’s teaching on other religions. The religions of the world have truth but the Catholic Church has Truth in its fullest.
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Jan 15, 2021 14:25
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It's hard to explain internal events to folk isn't it? I was just thinking about one of the very few what I'd term 'religious experiences' I've had and it boils down to 'I saw a very beautiful cloud' but it feels like there aren't words in English to explain what actually happened.
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Jan 15, 2021 15:00
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zonohedron posted:Respectfully, you're begging the question. "How do people in this thread deal with Christianity being all made up?" "No." (Or "Mu." or "n/a" or "NAN", or "divide by cucumber error", take your pick.) "If Jesus's relationship to God is developed from a worldview we no longer agree with, is that still a valid theological concept?" Well gosh, it would be interesting to discuss whether the doctrine of Jesus's relationship to God was developed from a worldview, or whether we agree with that worldview today, or whether the development was itself a disagreement with the worldview, and I think we could probably have an interesting conversation about whether theological concepts can be valid or invalid, too, but I can't answer that question either. This is way better put than I would be able to so I just quote it. In the heart of a problem of describing my faith in the triune God to non-religious people is that words like philosophy, way of life, ethics, truth and belief are incomplete. They are, mostly, very human-centric and describe humans more than they do God. I like the comparison I read in some book ages ago: humans figuring out the divine are a bit like fish figuring out life above the ground. They have no means to reach what they wish to explore and even if they had, they wouldn't understand anything, really. The only real solution is for someone aboveground to reveal something to the fish in a way they can understand it. And I only now realize there's a saying in English language about that.  But yeah, the above quote.
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Jan 15, 2021 15:21
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Personally, a part of my faith is the intellectual acknowledgement that I don't think God can be objectively known by secular methods and measures - and can't be objectively disproven, either. There are plausible secular explanations for everything, I believe. Which means that my choice to believe is to some - possibly a great - extent fundamentally arbitrary, and based on personal psychological comfort. Faith in God gives me a sense of purpose in my life, a greater perspective during the down times in my life, and a feeling that I am a part of something greater. If I had been raised Muslim or Buddhist or what have you, would I probably believe that religion and take the same comfort from it? Quite possibly. Nevertheless, acknowledging all of that, I choose to believe all the same. I think everyone believes in something, even if they believe in not believing, and this is my shot into the dark in that regard. https://i.imgur.com/g3z5Yer.mp4
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Jan 15, 2021 15:24
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PantlessBadger posted:Full disclosure, I own a silly hat. I would like to see the hat.
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Jan 15, 2021 15:26
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Captain von Trapp posted:In general if you asked the church fathers how old the earth was, they'd have probably shrugged and given you a young figure based on the geneaologies in the bible. From their writings, they would not have been particularly dogmatic about it. Often the issue was more "did creation take six literal days, or was it instantaneous?" With no science to speak of and the salvation of souls not depending on the answer, it wasn't something they worried about much. This reminds me of an article I read about how the Church isn't trying to answer questions like "How old is the universe" since that's a science question and the Church isn't really a body of scientists. http://blc.arizona.edu/courses/schaffer/449/Gould%20Nonoverlapping%20Magisteria.htm
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Jan 15, 2021 16:59
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I will always believe one of, perhaps THE, the most interesting periods of science and its intersection with faith is the 1840-1930s window of understanding thermodynamics well enough to fully quantify the insane energy output of the sun, but not enough about nuclear forces to explain it. The handwringing and philosophical arguments surrounding a series of efforts to produce that energy density from chemical and mechanical processes is fascinating.
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Jan 15, 2021 17:08
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Slimy Hog posted:This reminds me of an article I read about how the Church isn't trying to answer questions like "How old is the universe" since that's a science question and the Church isn't really a body of scientists. Steven J Gould also promulgated the idea of the Two Magisteria from the science side fake edit ahahaha that's what the link is
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Jan 15, 2021 17:26
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Hello new thread! I mostly lurk as my brain isn't wired for faith in god, but I'm Jewish and pretty attached to a lot of the cultural/ritual/philosophy stuff so sometimes I will have opinions. I'm also just interested in faith/religiousness in general as a thing that I fundamentally don't experience but which clearly lots of other people do!
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Jan 15, 2021 17:41
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Slimy Hog posted:This reminds me of an article I read about how the Church isn't trying to answer questions like "How old is the universe" since that's a science question and the Church isn't really a body of scientists. Bilirubin posted:Steven J Gould also promulgated the idea of the Two Magisteria from the science side hello I have strong opinions on the relationship between science and religion (I teach college science and assign Gould's "Non-Overlapping Magisteria" essay at the beginning of several of my courses)
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Jan 15, 2021 18:47
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Worthleast posted:I would like to see the hat.  Bit blurry, but that's what you get when trying to take pictures of silly hats, I guess.
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Jan 15, 2021 20:04
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PantlessBadger posted:
Excellent hat, vicar 
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Jan 15, 2021 20:06
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HopperUK posted:It's hard to explain internal events to folk isn't it? I was just thinking about one of the very few what I'd term 'religious experiences' I've had and it boils down to 'I saw a very beautiful cloud' but it feels like there aren't words in English to explain what actually happened.
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Jan 15, 2021 20:07
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PantlessBadger posted:
Don’t lie, you made it blurry so we couldn’t critique your reading habits. My old pastor (who baptized my now Buddhist sister by the wrong name) wore that hat for a special service but it was way too small so half-way through his prayers he ripped it off, threw it to the ground, and revealed this throbbing red line across his forehead. I felt bad for him but it was pretty hilarious.
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Jan 15, 2021 20:17
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Don’t lie, you made it blurry so we couldn’t critique your reading habits. My favourite biretta story has to do with a friend of mine whose cathedral was having issues with small bits of plaster falling from the ceiling due to construction and renvotation work related to the foundation having shifted. Think of it more like paint chips flecking off. Anyhow, he wore his biretta for an entire mass and told the people to think of it as a liturgical hard hat.
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Jan 15, 2021 20:36
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PantlessBadger posted:
That's a good silly hat.
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Jan 15, 2021 20:48
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Nth Doctor posted:That's a good silly hat. Agreed! I have an anglican parish a few blocks down from me in Calgary, which is next door to our only off leash park in the core. The church has put all sorts of those little lawn care signs around their lawn that read "pets welcome on our lawn" and I'm  y'all are good people
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Jan 15, 2021 21:01
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PantlessBadger posted:
Excellent biretta Father!
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Jan 15, 2021 21:06
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Good news, Jelly Bean pulled through.
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Jan 16, 2021 02:46
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White Coke posted:Good news, Jelly Bean pulled through. Hooray! St. Guinefort comes through again!
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Jan 16, 2021 03:48
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Praise Dog!
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Jan 16, 2021 05:09
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White Coke posted:Good news, Jelly Bean pulled through. Good to hear. "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous thread availeth much."
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Jan 16, 2021 05:45
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Zazz Razzamatazz posted:"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous thread availeth much." Honestly that's something I never expected to find on Something Awful, but found anyway: this thread prays for each other, encourages each other, and is just bizarrely wholesome. I love y'all 
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Jan 16, 2021 14:36
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zonohedron posted:Honestly that's something I never expected to find on Something Awful, but found anyway: this thread prays for each other, encourages each other, and is just bizarrely wholesome. I love y'all Love you too innit <3 This thread is a lovely place.
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Jan 16, 2021 15:06
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I'm Josef. I only post a little bit nowadays as I don't want to interrupt sincere faith posting. I'm an Atheist and pretty far on the Left, and I like reading what people have to write here because it's very different from what I usually think about, whilst also being usually well thought through. Keep safe everyone. White Coke posted:Good news, Jelly Bean pulled through. Good news, and I hope they stay well!
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Jan 16, 2021 16:30
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Josef bugman posted:I'm an Atheist and pretty far on the Left, and I like reading what people have to write here because it's very different from what I usually think about, whilst also being usually well thought through. I've found that as my politics moved to the left I've become more religious. How was it for you? Josef bugman posted:Good news, and I hope they stay well! She's got a moderate heart murmur, which is to be expected with a cat her age (which according to the vet is 15 years & 7 months not 17 years like we thought) and shrunken kidneys which were because of dehydration. What ended up saving her life is that I started giving her canned food to treat her well before sending her off, and the extra moisture allowed her to recover enough that we got a QOL check from the vet. Make sure to water your pets, folks.
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Jan 16, 2021 20:19
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White Coke posted:She's got a moderate heart murmur, which is to be expected with a cat her age (which according to the vet is 15 years & 7 months not 17 years like we thought) and shrunken kidneys which were because of dehydration. What ended up saving her life is that I started giving her canned food to treat her well before sending her off, and the extra moisture allowed her to recover enough that we got a QOL check from the vet. Make sure to water your pets, folks. I'm really glad to hear that this worked out well. I got one of those little water fountains for my cats some time ago and even though it's kind of a pain to keep clean, they love the thing and thus actually drink so I consider it a good investment.
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Jan 16, 2021 20:52
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White Coke posted:I've found that as my politics moved to the left I've become more religious. How was it for you? I've usually moved leftwards because it seemed like the best thing to do to help people. It's not that I don't want to believe it's more just that I don't feel the belief. Was raised sort of Atheistically? My mum and dad never really talked much about it and the only really "religious" people in the family were my Grandma and Grandad. After Grandad died I don't think my mum ever stepped inside a church for prayer. I love religions and faith itself is something really cool, but in the same way that I can't make myself feel happy, I also can't make myself feel faith. How was it for yourself? White Coke posted:She's got a moderate heart murmur, which is to be expected with a cat her age (which according to the vet is 15 years & 7 months not 17 years like we thought) and shrunken kidneys which were because of dehydration. Good grief! That is an old lady. I hope she continues to have a long and happy life, and that she gets watered enough.
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Jan 16, 2021 21:16
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White Coke posted:I've found that as my politics moved to the left I've become more religious. How was it for you? Somewhat the opposite for me, but that's trying to reconcile the desire for social justice with the actions and positions of the Catholic Church in the US for you.
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Jan 17, 2021 01:35
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I regret not having been able to attend an Armenian or Ethiopian Orthodox service. But, the Armenian liturgy is really really cool. Give this a listen sometime, it's sort of a fusion of Western and Eastern liturgical and musical traditions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtPfE6mHA_s
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Jan 17, 2021 06:31
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 Great physician, heal our hearts.
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Jan 17, 2021 21:14
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docbeard posted:I got one of those little water fountains for my cats some time ago and even though it's kind of a pain to keep clean, they love the thing and thus actually drink so I consider it a good investment. My neighbor, who had one cat live to be 19 and a half, and another (who was the kitten of one of our cats) live to 18, recommended one of those. Josef bugman posted:I love religions and faith itself is something really cool, but in the same way that I can't make myself feel happy, I also can't make myself feel faith. I struggle with my faith, but faith isn't just what you believe, it's what you do and who you do it with. One of my biggest realizations was that while I thought of myself as an antisocial loner, I was really missing human company, being part of a faith community. Growing up my family wasn't super religious but we did go to church every Sunday and we had a lot of friends through that. Liquid Communism posted:Somewhat the opposite for me, but that's trying to reconcile the desire for social justice with the actions and positions of the Catholic Church in the US for you. I'm not Catholic, but as I understand it being a Catholic who is opposed to many of the actions of the Church is something with a long historical precedent.
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Jan 18, 2021 03:35
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