Religion Thread: I never metaphysics I didn't like

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Religion Thread: I never metaphysics I didn't like

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

PantlessBadger posted:

Anglican. Canadian. Priest.

I did some of my training in the United States so my bad posts can keep up with US religion chat on occasion, but I mostly just lurk and wait for someone to post about liturgy or the Anglican Communion to post.

Full disclosure, I own a silly hat.

So do I, but it comes from the English academic tradition so its not very pointy. Back 15 generations or so ago I even have a Anglican minister in my ancestry!

So, its complicated, and I hope I don't overshare here. I was born into an American ultra dispensationalist evangelical church, and wound up leaving it because of my getting into a fight with a deacon when 16 over evolution in Sunday School. (In real conservative tradition he "challenged me to a debate" so the following week be brought a book by Duane Gish whereas I dumped a 5 pound bag of fossils on the table.) It was a bit of an issue because my grandparents were long term missionaries in the Congo and somewhat prominent in the church but whatev. My siblings have also both left the church since (although one is Buddhist now) whereas my parents are now in a prosperity mega church, fully sucked into the FOX reality.

Anyway on my way to my current agnostic-atheist world view I spent a few years studying in a hermetic school, which made the break easier for me. I still love the tradition and pageantry of religion (as well as the sense of community) and with my formerly catholic partner will tune into Mass on various holidays whenever the mood strikes. What I really enjoy though is the theological/philosophical side of things and have Augustine's Confessions on my bedside as next to be read. I am also quite into textural scholarship (as lay reading, not my area of expertise). I never bought into nu-Atheism because I will never reject the personal meaning folks find in the experience of their lives, and have fully embraced a Matthew 7:16-20 of people in general. IOW I've become much more orthodox in my views as an atheist

# ¿ Jan 15, 2021 07:17

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# ¿ Apr 19, 2024 20:19

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Slimy Hog posted:

This reminds me of an article I read about how the Church isn't trying to answer questions like "How old is the universe" since that's a science question and the Church isn't really a body of scientists.
http://blc.arizona.edu/courses/schaffer/449/Gould%20Nonoverlapping%20Magisteria.htm

Steven J Gould also promulgated the idea of the Two Magisteria from the science side

fake edit ahahaha that's what the link is

# ¿ Jan 15, 2021 17:26

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

Nth Doctor posted:

That's a good silly hat.

Agreed!

I have an anglican parish a few blocks down from me in Calgary, which is next door to our only off leash park in the core. The church has put all sorts of those little lawn care signs around their lawn that read "pets welcome on our lawn" and I'm :3:

y'all are good people

# ¿ Jan 15, 2021 21:01

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

Tias posted:

Dear Josef,

One benefit of self-examination that often appears in conjunction with a spiritual practice, is the realization that you are not unique. The doubts, self-loathing, fear and confusion, we all deal with it in our own way - and since you're talking to us, we can mirror those feelings and help you with them.

Also, keep in mind that the self is an extremely unreliable narrator, as is the fact that it's clothed in flesh. Everything from forgetfulness to hormones can give us the notion that we should despise ourselves, in spite of us having done nothing wrong at all.

This a million times this.

After forever (even longer than I resisted getting a paid account here) I finally got a FB account. And one of the first people to follow me was someone that, to my (personal) shame, I had wronged. After they friended me in chat I finally apologized to them for having been such a dick to them over such and such incident that weighed so heavily with me. Their response? "Uh, whatever the gently caress are you talking about? I have no memory of such a thing, it obviously didn't affect me, whatever, give yourself a break!"

# ¿ Jan 21, 2021 07:20

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

Glutes Are Great posted:

Later on, lesser known philosophers took the starting point Popper set to answer that part, for example Thomas Kuhn or Imre Lakatos, who started to define how falsifying science can or should work and where to draw a line. The latter is also relevant to the matter of science as a belief system, as, like with Popper, denying everything based on something being falsifiable is not very constructive, as is immunizing something against falsification. The latter is qua definition no longer actual science, the former though makes it sheer impossible to gain knowledge from science as you can put everything into question and destroy it that way. This obviously also raises the question of our ability to gain knowledge from theology and philosophy in general. Very interesting stuff to read, if you want to get into it!

As I recall, Lakatos also expanded upon the idea of the secondary, embeded, hypothesis, cautioning that when a larger hypothesis is falsified a la Popper, it might actually still be sound but a secondary, perhaps unarticulated, secondary hypothesis might be the error. Basically this means "be aware of and state your assumptions" in my mind because its a process of refining theory over time. We scientists (I'm an evolutionary biologist, but I interact with the philosophy of science department) don't actually deal with the large scale, overarching theory in our day to day work, but pick around the secondary (or tertiary) hypothesis. Its a rare person (like Gould) that synthesizes large scale theory.

Popper was interesting enough (until I hit the heavy symbolic logic), but Kuhn was a great read.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2021 06:23

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Fritz the Horse posted:

edit: I should also add my field involves processes that occur on geologic timescales which again, not falsifiable in any reasonable sense. Like I can confidently state that the cooler climate of the Cenozoic era we live in is largely due to silicate weathering of the Himalaya uplift which started ~60-70 million years ago. Just lol falsifying things which occur on a timescale of "tens of millions of years"

I'm a paleontologist. There are ways to frame the work in a falsificationist framework, mostly stemming from establishing the inferential validity.

But yeah we can't exactly run an experiment in the lab. Gould speaks in detail about this.

re: Church of Nazarene: there was one at the end of my street where I would catch my bus to school every day. I always wondered what their deal was. Of course, my church was across the street from our house, and the bible college my parents met at two blocks away so I'm sure I asked when I was a kid and was told "they aren't 'real' Christians," like every other sect that wasn't ours.

# ¿ Jan 25, 2021 06:05

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GreyjoyBastard posted:

I always love retelling this one.

Shiva's wife - let's call her Parvati for the purposes of this story, ~~to humor the boring, humorless, stonefaced Shaivites~~ because that's the most common version of it - is bathing in the river. She instructs her kiddo, Ganesh, to guard the approach to the river with his silly little kiddo spear, so nobody sees her skinnydipping.

Shiva comes sauntering up to come visit his wife and is confronted by this short dipshit with a stupid little pointy stick. "Halt! The Goddess has commanded me to keep you from entering!" "Really? Are you serious? I'm her husband, and a god, you little moron!" "I have been told to bar the way against even gods, and so I shall!"

So, being a reasonable, level-headed dude like most of the pantheon, Shiva chops his head off and continues on. "Hey wife, good to see you!" "Hey husband, great to see you too! I assume you met our son on the way in, were you impressed with his bravery?" "Our... uh... excuse me, I forgot to wash the cat. Be right back."

Shiva calls his minions together. "Alright, folks. This is a vital, top secret, and extremely urgent mission. I want you guys to go find the head of a living creature and bring it back to me. PROMPTLY." The first of his minions to return has an elephant head in hand and he rapidly attaches it to the body of the son he inadvertently decapitated, as his wife emerges from her bath. "See? Good as new!"

and that's why ganesh is the god of luck: because he didn't bleed out before his idiot father could find a replacement head

hahahahaha that's great

# ¿ Jan 25, 2021 06:09

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Fritz the Horse posted:

vertebrate or inveterbrate? I went to grad school with a bunch of invert paleontologists. no need to answer if it'd doxx you too much

I'm a biogeochemist. all the paleontologist friends I had were wizards with sed-strat which is totally outside my area of expertise

Cool hi! Biochem is something I missed but am getting via a current student in spades. I'm vert but my undergrad was in geology so I know both invert and sed-strat (and structure) pretty well.

(I liked chemistry so much in ugrad I almost switched to metamorphic petrology for my focus, its so cool)

# ¿ Jan 25, 2021 06:59

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Dapper_Swindler posted:

so i have a weirdly personal question. can something be a miracle if someone had to suffer/die for it to happen. so like 12 or so years ago, i was on dialysis for like 3 years because my one kidney had decided to eat poo poo and stop working. basicaly the whole experience was awful and hellish and one of my moms catholic friends gave us some Lourdes water because gently caress it. my mom does it to me and a couple weeks later, i get a kidney, a perfect matched one genetically or some poo poo. its been working for 13 or so years now and shows no signs of stopping and all my religious friends and relatives say its a miracle i feel like i should be happy and i am but someone died so i could have that kidney ai know they chose to give up their organs after death and it was there time and such. but it feels hosed up to call it a miracle and such. i will never know who that person was and i always feel bad thinking about how it could have been some mother or some father and that my "miracle" was the worst day in someone's life. i guess i still feel weirdly guilty about it.

Nah you should not feel guilty about it at all. This is what hermeticists would call the outcome of ritual (if it had been performed), Christians and others will call it an answer to prayer, atheists will call it the outcome of a good donor program. Whatever explanation that best brings meaning to your life is "best". Only one might have evidence that could be gathered to "prove" it but who gives a poo poo. You have a new lease on life, enjoy your time! But also honor those that live on in you too, if that helps you.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2021 03:47

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

Cyrano4747 posted:

I'm an organ donor and my exact words to my wife, my parents, and anyone else who might conceivably be making that kind of decision for me are "take everything you can, I want to be parted out like a stolen new model Civic in a chop shop. Throw my rear end skin or whatever else they can't use in a cheap box, burn that, and do whatever makes you happy with the ashes."

Believe me, I like being alive. If I have it my way I'll end up being cremated with all my organs because no one will want my wrinkly 100 year old kidneys. But if I get hit by a bus tomorrow? At the very least I want the maximum good to come from my early death, so pretend I'm a buffalo and use every damned part of me.

Same actually, except I want my bones on some dusty shelf to torment undergraduates in perpetuity

# ¿ Feb 1, 2021 03:49

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BattyKiara posted:

I'm recovering from having had a total nervous breakdown. Happy to see you are all still posting. I love to read here, but scared of posting in virtually all threads.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2021 03:50

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Cyrano4747 posted:

Crosspost from the Norse heathenry thread:

While I have extremely ambivalent feelings about missionaries displacing local faiths (and exponentially more so in eras that aren�t in the distant past), I have to admit that I find syncretic practices like this fascinating.

That's a nice way to put it. I tend more towards active negativity towards the idea, this despite my grandparents spending 15 years in the mission field where my father and the rest of his family were born. I will also acknowledge the good work that they accomplished making some people's lives better as well (although also the colonialism that largely caused it even more so, read King Leopold's Ghost for more on that), and the evangelical directive given to all Christians. Still #itscomplicated

The cool thing of that stone (other than the baller lighting of the photo, was one of a few bluebird days I got there) is the cross at the top of the serpentine carving. Here is another runestone from the churchyard of the cathedral at Uppsala.

And my personal icon, the tomb of Linnaeus set in the floor of the entranceway to the nave

(I really love nothing more than wandering old churches, and have listened to mass being said at Notre Dame twice)

# ¿ Feb 19, 2021 00:10

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Thirteen Orphans posted:

Sorry I just knew it was San Francisco, I didn�t know what exactly counted as Bay Area.

Castro is practically *in* the bay

# ¿ Feb 20, 2021 02:46

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Hi again religonthread!

[TELL] me about this icon

I assume it is Saint's Michael and...Raphael? I found it last fall in the neighbourhood while walking the dog, and try as I might (posting on my town's lost and found boards on both Facebook and Reddit) I could not find its owner. It's made by a Greek company based on the label on the reverse but a handwritten note on the reverse, in Romanian, suggests it was given to a dear possibly younger person but a aunt or grandmother or whatever, on the event of whatever feasts day or event took place on the Sunday of June 21, 2019. I could find no names, so I will drop it off at the Romanian Orthodox church in town and hope it can either find its way back to the owner (its nice gold leaf after all) or be given to another.

So anyway, the question: what purpose does this icon serve, what is it used for, what do those fine angelic types represent, etc. I'd like to know more about this little thing on my desk.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2021 03:11

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crazypeltast52 posted:

Messaged HEY GUNS about it:

I grew up culturally orthodox but was functionally lapsed for various reasons, so I just know that we have icons around, but can�t really describe the why exactly.

cool info, thanks!

# ¿ Mar 2, 2021 05:47

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Lutha Mahtin posted:

lol i am not even going to try and make a comprehensive reply to this post. "excuse me goon sire can you kindly summarize 2000 years of theology and geopolitics for me tia" haha

*hauls out thick doctrinal book, blows dust off of it*

OK, let's see where you might fall out. Question #1: The Holy Trinity. Are you for or against this

# ¿ Mar 5, 2021 20:34

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Happy Easter to those who celebrate it, belated Passover greetings to those who celebrate that. The Baptist church across the street kicked off their weekly (recorded) bell concert for the neighbourhood with Blessed Redeemer. Its scary how quickly these hymns come back to me despite rarely entering a church since I was like 17.

# ¿ Apr 4, 2021 20:12

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D34THROW posted:

Please keep my father and paternal stepgrandmother in your prayers, my papoo passed this afternoon. I posted in E/N but long story short I've been an awful grandson. I haven't talked to him in nearly a decade despite meaning to and having the means to.

Sorry to hear it, and to learn of your regrets for not reaching out. You were not awful, you were just human. Hopefully you can find good memories to cherish.

RE Christmas chat: both my partner and I are agnostics, she raised Catholic me American Evangelical. This season for us is an excuse to turn on all of the colorful lights we keep strung about the place. We do try to give each other meaningful gifts, if inexpensive since we try to live life in the now, and I relate with OP for whom gifts are incomprehensible since we both came from similar modest means.

We will even occasionally drink too much and surf digital cable for masses held variously around the world. Although not religious personally I cannot deny the meaning others find, and the sometimes profound insights that can arise from meditating on the human condition at this time, the birth of a child of refugees. One year I was in Paris and saw the nativity told simply, with a programmed series of lights that would sequentially illuminate relevant carvings in the wooden choir at Notre Dame. This modern take on a medieval pictorial story telling left me feeling strongly identifying with countless generations that came before me that witnessed the same thing in different times. That, to me, was extremely meaningful.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2021 06:47

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

Tias posted:

instiutionalized

Oh no, will have Suicidal Tendencies stuck in my head all day

# ¿ Jan 25, 2022 16:05

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# ¿ Feb 8, 2022 20:42

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remember everything can always be stupider than they are now!

# ¿ Feb 15, 2022 18:39

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Earwicker posted:

why? there are a lot of great ones

itd be weird for an adult to only read YA novels but there's no reason to avoid them altgother either. i recently revisited some lloyd alexander, his prydain series is definitely still just as good as an adult

Interesting. Just this morning while I was drying off snowdoggo I noticed my Alexander Lyre novel, and wondered both what it was about because I had enjoyed it as a kid but remember nothing, then why I never bothered with the rest of the series. The latter probably had to do with money.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2022 20:37

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Herstory Begins Now posted:

i feel like a satanist potluck is going to have really good barbecue

and hot dish

# ¿ Feb 22, 2022 15:59

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zonohedron posted:

Tater-tots??? I think that might be a heresy.

Tater-tots own.

This reminds me how my partner's family marked annual events based upon proximity to an event at their parish called "spaghetti supper". Years later I finally got to experience one, and it was exactly like I expected, except much more spoken Italian was used. Good times.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2022 16:56

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

Just got a random, hand written letter from our local JW community. Certainly better than a door knock.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2022 17:42

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Liquid Communism posted:

Absolutely. I'm not interested in what they're selling, but polite of them to have concern for safety in their outreach.

Yeah I got a letter from one a couple months back, might have posted about it ITT at the time to. Very nicely handwritten, and once I confirmed it was them (it was confusing for a bit, my partner has an online business that it might have been related to) I recycled it. I regret your time wasted, as it was clearly hand written, and appreciate the concern, but nah.

# ¿ Mar 12, 2022 16:32

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Earwicker posted:

ive been visited by both as well as been stopped on the street by lubavitchers several times when i lived in nyc and even once in downtown la (this generally only happens to jewish or "jewish looking" people)

That was one of the most confused I've ever been, when the Lubavitchers once stopped me on campus in Montreal with their vehicle based Purim prayer and blessing stall. I apologized profusely and said I'd be happy to take any information about their rebbe they wished to give me (they politely declined) but I am about as Swedish looking as one can be short of actually walking the streets of Stockholm (although I have darker hair I guess?). Jewish friends subsequently explained their deal (I mean we had Chabad Houses everywhere I've lived but never went obviously) especially the awkward place Judaism is in with respect to evangelism.

# ¿ Mar 12, 2022 16:42

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

Happy Easter to those who celebrate it (and celebrate it today)

# ¿ Apr 9, 2023 15:40

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

Also Happy Passover and Ramadan Mubarek, to those what celebrate those.

Busy calendar this time of year

# ¿ Apr 10, 2023 20:42

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

What, Misery Island? Now exporting worldwide!

# ¿ May 27, 2023 16:30

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omg who cares

# ¿ May 29, 2023 05:28

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Earwicker posted:

admittedly i only played 2 or 3 hours of this game, if that, but i dont remember religion coming up in it at all and im very confused as to why this thread is now about it

This was what I was driving at with my shorter, more dismissive post above. Apologies if I gave anyone offense. Its SA and I should just accept that gameschat will happen everywhere.

On another topic, today's WaPo has a fantastic story about the conservative Christian homeschooling movement and one couple's struggle to come to terms with the contradictions their homeschooled indoctrination presented to their own personal sense of right and decency, starting with corporeal punishment of their own children:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/interactive/2023/christian-home-schoolers-revolt/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f002

This one struck a strong chord with me. Although I was able to escape homeschooling--in fact, education was strongly encouraged and my sisters and I were sent to an academic magnet school (thanks the spirit of my great grandfather!), many of my cousins, who married pastors and got deep into quiver full type bullshit, did not. To see how limiting that was on their children in turn is heart breaking.

OTOH, I can understand, while strongly, strenuously objecting to, the motivation to "protect their children from the world". Simply, their world view cannot stand on its own in the marketplace of ideas, so you isolate yourself from anything other. My father, no doubt mimicking his own father (the missionary and pastor), tried to convince me to do a two year degree at the bible college he and my mom met at before heading to university. By that point I had established a strong enough identity to refuse (although I needed a lot of time away from university after my first year to learn about life and grow up before I would come back to finish), but reading this couple's story about the isolation they have endured through their crisis of faith and consequent rupture with their family resonated. Their 6 year old astonished that they had never heard of Punxsutawney Phil before highlights that degree of indoctrination.

The other thing discussed which contributed to their crisis of faith was the issue of spoiling the rod. They discussed their feelings waiting for their parents to summon them into their room for punishment over some slight, and it brought me back to my own childhood. I was spanked, sure, but never hit with something else. Then an old memory surfaced about one time my own father was mad to the point that he started taking off his belt-I was never struck, the thread was enough for me (and I wonder how it relates to ongoing anxiety issues--note to self get into counseling), but now, I think I was never struck because he was flashing back to a trauma of his own. I wonder if I really remember tears or if this is a manufactured memory.

Anyway, the path to hell is lined with good intentions.

Thank you for attending my therapy TED talk.

# ¿ May 30, 2023 18:54

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

https://twitter.com/lilyalta/status/1663593413453676548

# ¿ May 30, 2023 21:35

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Nessus posted:

The homeschooling people in this case were almost literally terrified of their kids being exposed to godless etc. etc. not phones; evolution or the existence of other religions and such.

So fair point on your end but not the thrust of the write up. It’s a good un though.

Thank you for addressing that much more eloquently than I would have. To that I would add that in the portion that I wrote that the reply to me quoted I was specifically addressing the alienation from the family one endures from breaking away from that received social structure, which in the case presented in the article came from literally isolating their children from all ideas outside their world view via home schooling.

I deleted the rest of the post however as I think I was being a bit overactive. I have some stressors in my life right now and occasionally they show themselves in inappropriate ways, as I think they did here. I don't wish to harm the vibe of this thread.

Bilirubin fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Jun 1, 2023

# ¿ Jun 1, 2023 06:55

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

lol

# ¿ Jun 2, 2023 04:44

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I mean, how can you read the Gospels and then well acktually yourself into that position?

(I know how, my church had basically elevated Paul above the gospels too)

# ¿ Jun 2, 2023 15:54

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Well ok if I can't bag on Paul can I at least do Irenaeus?

Also every time I read Polycarp I think lots of fish

# ¿ Jun 3, 2023 00:56

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TOOT BOOT posted:

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-evangelicals-2663078391/

MAGA is a literal cult

# ¿ Aug 10, 2023 14:41

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# ¿ Apr 19, 2024 20:19

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LITERALLY A BIRD posted:

I'm reminded of this, uh... are they still called "tweets"?

https://twitter.com/LegoRacers2/status/1648148529020551169

Reminds me of a buddy, high Anglican, Master Mason, who one day at the pub espoused the Manichean heresy and has never discussed theology with us again after getting called out on it

# ¿ Aug 11, 2023 04:48

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