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Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Hello and welcome to Religionthread 2021!

You are welcome and valued no matter your creed or where you're at in your life/faith journey. This is above all a tolerant space in that we encourage posters of any and all faiths (or none!) to

This is a thread for talking about religion. Historically this was a Liturgical Christianity thread but in the last couple iterations we decided to just brand it as "religion" broadly because we have a bunch of cool folks who aren't Christian.
This thread will still be mostly Christian but that's not because we exclude others, that simply happens to be a majority of regulars here.

We are people that care deeply about our faith traditions. We agree to disagree and enjoy learning from each other.

Posting of silly hats and thicc houses of worship is encouraged!



Some basic thread rules:
1) Don't be a jerk. Respect the fact that everyone here has different faith traditions and opinions than you do. This is not a place for evangelizing.

2) No abortion chat Historically this has been taboo for the thread but we opened it up a couple months ago and it went surprisingly well.
Just... be considered and empathetic in your posting on abortion and other hot-button issues. I think we are probably okay to discuss abortion/right-to-life/choice issues so long as it adheres to rule 1) Don't be a jerk.




Some examples of things we post about :
-Prayer requests
-Silly hats and other cool images of religious stuff
-Serious and well-intentioned theological/philosophical discussion
-Current events related to religion
-Prosperity gospel is very bad and probably evil

Some examples of things you ought to avoid:
-Calling other faith traditions wrong/heretical/schismatic
-Personal attacks
-Being overly political







mod edit: The old thread is here

CrypticFox posted:

. This is a permanent invite link to the discord: https://discord.gg/8GFHu4Tczz

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Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Hello I'm Fritz, a horse.



Lutheran/Episcopalian, feel pretty at home in most mainstream Protestant churches.

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

what even is hinduism anyway

(I am led to believe this is a genuine non-shitpost theological question within hinduism writ large)

Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Jan 14, 2021

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

ahem

casserole


edit:

exhibit A: green bean casserole

exhibit B: tater tot casserole

and whatever lil' smokeys sausages are, they've been the new hotness in church basement food since I dunno, the 90s

Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Jan 14, 2021

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Our differences in fairly terrible Midwestern US after-church potluck terminology are irreconcilable.

I propose we schism.

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

I believe now is the point I remind the thread that the Lutheran Insulter exists and is extremely fun: https://ergofabulous.org/luther/

quote:

You are like the frogs of old who could not put up with a log for lord; instead they got a stork that pecked their heads and devoured them. You are a desperate, accursed thing.

From Whether Soldiers, too, can be Saved, pg. 112 of Luther's Works, Vol. 46


Liquid Communism posted:

I mean we could, but you know it's going to take forty-five minutes and another cup of coffee before anyone can talk themselves around to trying to leave.

Okay but, who gets the organist? There is only one person in town who can play our organ. My recipes are obviously superior and I claim the organist.

(my dad does an awesome Reuben casserole, all homemade. homemade corned beef, saeurkraut, dill pickles, etc)




edit: a large proportion of Religionthread posters are from the upper midwest. I do not have a good explanation for this phenomenon other than green-bean and tater-tot casseroles when well-executed are actually quite good.

Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Jan 14, 2021

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Liquid Communism posted:

Ground beef, sliced potatoes, cream of mushroom soup, carrots, celery, onion, and sour cream was the thing here. With biscuits on top.

Think what you will, so make in your pants, hang it round your neck, then make a jelly of it and eat it like the vulgar sows and asses you are!

From Against Hanswurst, pg. 187 of Luther's Works, Vol. 41

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Slimy Hog posted:

This reminds me of an article I read about how the Church isn't trying to answer questions like "How old is the universe" since that's a science question and the Church isn't really a body of scientists.
http://blc.arizona.edu/courses/schaffer/449/Gould%20Nonoverlapping%20Magisteria.htm


Bilirubin posted:

Steven J Gould also promulgated the idea of the Two Magisteria from the science side

fake edit ahahaha that's what the link is

hello I have strong opinions on the relationship between science and religion

(I teach college science and assign Gould's "Non-Overlapping Magisteria" essay at the beginning of several of my courses)

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

I regret not having been able to attend an Armenian or Ethiopian Orthodox service.

But, the Armenian liturgy is really really cool. Give this a listen sometime, it's sort of a fusion of Western and Eastern liturgical and musical traditions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtPfE6mHA_s

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

HopperUK posted:

It's basically traditional at this point.

My cat is 19 years old and if she doesn't stop sneaking downstairs, eating dog food and then hurling it all over my bed, she isn't going to be 20. Little poo poo is 100% healthy and made out of screams.

She soft though.



Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Thirteen Orphans posted:

Thatís one crazy looking cat.

I'm posting selfies don't doxx me thx

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Does anyone have recommendations for places to purchase Catholic religious items? Like Etsy stores or something? I'd rather patronize artists than big stores.

Specifically I'm looking for a St. Francis of Assisi medallion for my brother and his girlfriend who recently got a big golden retriever (gf is very Catholic).

edit: I'd also welcome other suggestions for Catholic gifts related to Big Friendly Dogs.

Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Jan 19, 2021

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Glutes Are Great posted:

doctoral student

praying for u



What area of philosophy, broadly? If you don't mind my asking. Not that I know much about philosophy.

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

That sounds pretty cool and very relevant to religion.

The only philosophy I've dabbled in is environmental philosophy and philosophy of science (especially how science and religion interact) and both of those at a pretty amateurish level.

In the Before Times I gave talks to middle and high schoolers about climate change a couple times a year. One of my favorite gimmicks was asking the auditorium "do you believe in climate change?" and getting a roaring YES. Then I'd say NOOOO and the looks on kids faces are priceless. Varying mixtures of confused and indignant etc. "Science is not a belief system!" Then I'd talk for a bit about how science works.

edit: a couple of times I've noticed some of the teachers get an alarmed look for a few seconds. "wait why the gently caress did we invite this climate denialist??"

Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jan 23, 2021

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Glutes Are Great posted:

That's really cool! I always felt like scientific theory as a philosophical branch is extraordinarily important, especially nowadays where science is both either put into question by misunderstanding its structure, or used as a belief system just like you said. Religion being something else from that and, as easy as it sounds, the difference between a religious question, a philosophical question and a scientific question, is something that nowadays gets forgotten or ignored so easily. Not even just from a political perspective, but in a very fundamental way. It's scary.


Nth Doctor posted:

I love everything about this

That "gimmick" is kind of a rhetorical device to shock the audience and get them engaged and interested.

The (very loose) definition of science I usually give is that science is "a tool for understanding the natural (physical) world." It's a lens through which we can study and understand the physical (knocks on the table), material world. Science ain't got poo poo to say about human culture, philosophy, morality, religion, spirituality, etc.

I live and teach on a Native American reservation, so a large part of my job is being culturally conscious and relevant. Spirituality and traditional beliefs are super important and I want to recognize and validate them while also boosting confidence in (Western) science.

To get somewhat more into philosophy and science, most claims regarding religion and spirituality are not falsifiable. That is, it's not possible to prove them wrong. "A Creator exists." Well, I can't disprove the existence of a Creator entity. And that's very much outside the realm of the natural (physical) world of science.

Karl Popper is a good reference for a lot of this stuff though again, I'm really a novice on the philosophy end. I'm a lab scientist by training, I just care about this stuff.


I've linked this before but I think Gould's Non-Overlapping Magisteria is a good starting point for discussion of the relationship between religion and science:
http://www.blc.arizona.edu/courses/schaffer/449/Gould%20Nonoverlapping%20Magisteria.htm

quote:

If religion can no longer dictate the nature of factual conclusions properly under the magisterium of science, then scientists cannot claim higher insight into moral truth from any superior knowledge of the world's empirical constitution. This mutual humility has important practical consequences in a world of such diverse passions.

Religion is too important to too many people for any dismissal or denigration of the comfort still sought by many folks from theology. I may, for example, privately suspect that papal insistence on divine infusion of the soul represents a sop to our fears, a device for maintaining a belief in human superiority within an evolutionary world offering no privileged position to any creature. But I also know that souls represent a subject outside the magisterium of science. My world cannot prove or disprove such a notion, and the concept of souls cannot threaten or impact my domain. Moreover, while I cannot personally accept the Catholic view of souls, I surely honor the metaphorical value of such a concept both for grounding moral discussion and for expressing what we most value about human potentiality: our decency, care, and all the ethical and intellectual struggles that the evolution of consciousness imposed upon us.

Note that Gould is an evolutionary biologist, not a philosopher or theologian.

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

sb hermit posted:

Hello. I am a non-church-going christian still looking for the right church. I still give tithes to my parents' church since it's gotta go somewhere.

I noticed in the old thread that there's a link to a discord but the invite link is busted. Fritz, may I get a fresh link? I don't mind if it's quiet and I promise to keep it civil.

I PM'd you a fresh link. Apparently they expire after one day, so it's not really productive to post them in the thread.


ProperGanderPusher posted:

We're already a couple pages in, but here's my reintro. I've been around since the original liturgigoon megathread. I was raised atheist, spent a few years in Rome (in a radtrad bubble) in my early adult years, and finally became Orthodox about eleven years ago. I mostly lurk around these parts since like a few other posters I lean heavily traditional and conservative and I'm careful about when to reveal my power level.

I'm mostly here for the church pix and fun historic fact chat.

I see a lot of people posting about their political leanings. As I'm sure you know as a longtime reader in these threads, things sometimes get a little heated around political/doctrinal issues but mostly the thread is chill. I think the key is this is not a debate thread, we're not going to change each other's minds on abortion/right-to-life and such but we can learn from the discussion. Personally I thought the IVF discussion last fall was interesting and not something I'd really given much thought previous to then.

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Yeah we do a lot of wild-rear end induction in my field (earth science broadly, oceanography/limnology specifically) because falsifying hypotheses about regional/global scale systems is uh not terribly feasible. We end up doing a lot of laboratory ("bottle") experiments and trying to extrapolate that to large-scale natural phenomena which requires a ton of hand-waving.

My absolute favorite thing about my and related fields is the underlying assumption of "assuming equilibrium / steady-state..." because lol that the real world is ever in equilibrium. It's just a necessary assumption to make a lot of modeling and extrapolation work.

But like, religion and spirituality are examples of things that are definitely not falsifiable (mostly) and definitely outside the scope of science.



At some point I should reprise my rant on uniformitarianism vs. catastrophism which is very relevant to the historical interaction between religion and science.




edit: I should also add my field involves processes that occur on geologic timescales which again, not falsifiable in any reasonable sense. Like I can confidently state that the cooler climate of the Cenozoic era we live in is largely due to silicate weathering of the Himalaya uplift which started ~60-70 million years ago. Just lol falsifying things which occur on a timescale of "tens of millions of years"

Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Jan 24, 2021

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

White Coke posted:

I'd also like to hear more conservative peoples' opinions on matters of theology out of curiosities sake, but I know that for some people there are opinions that given even a chance to be heard are very hurtful and alienating so I don't know how free ranging such discussions could be.


Captain von Trapp posted:

Fundamental disagreements about the deepest parts of the human experience are likely to be hurtful and alienating from time to time. This thread has been able to handle those disagreements in a pretty genial live-and-let-live way. Why not continue? If it's too intense for some, there's always every other thread on the forums.

I may be wrong here, but I think the thread can handle things like "my faith tradition believes that marriage is only between a man and a woman" or "I believe reproductive matters are up to the individual choice of a woman." Many of us will disagree, but that's OK.

imo the problem has been posters pairing statements like the above with support of applying those to society or people that don't share their beliefs. It's one thing to hold sincere beliefs based on your religious tradition, it's another to post here that you think those beliefs should be imposed on people who don't agree with you.

Does that make sense?

"I support X" is probably not going to offend people unless you make it personal by also saying "X should be law" or "I support a theocracy enforcing X."


edit:

Also I am neither a mod nor an arbiter of what is/isn't acceptable in this thread. We have a pretty great community of posters and lurkers who understand the bounds of what's accepted in this thread vs. liable to cause drama. I'm confident we can self-police just fine.

That said, there are several mods and an admin watching this thread and I'm sure you could PM them and get a quick response if someone is trying to cause trouble.

Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Jan 25, 2021

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

GreyjoyBastard posted:

So, being a reasonable, level-headed dude like most of the pantheon, Shiva chops his head off and continues on. "Hey wife, good to see you!" "Hey husband, great to see you too! I assume you met our son on the way in, were you impressed with his bravery?" "Our... uh... excuse me, I forgot to wash the cat. Be right back."

post/av text combo

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Bilirubin posted:

I'm a paleontologist. There are ways to frame the work in a falsificationist framework, mostly stemming from establishing the inferential validity.

But yeah we can't exactly run an experiment in the lab. Gould speaks in detail about this.

re: Church of Nazarene: there was one at the end of my street where I would catch my bus to school every day. I always wondered what their deal was. Of course, my church was across the street from our house, and the bible college my parents met at two blocks away so I'm sure I asked when I was a kid and was told "they aren't 'real' Christians," like every other sect that wasn't ours.

vertebrate or inveterbrate? I went to grad school with a bunch of invert paleontologists. no need to answer if it'd doxx you too much


I'm a biogeochemist. all the paleontologist friends I had were wizards with sed-strat which is totally outside my area of expertise

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

By popular demand posted:

I can confirm, Commandment #11 is "Fritz is the best horse"

(#12 is eat some veggies you guys, ffs)

ThePopeOfFun posted:

I agree with Fritz. Talking about how our beliefs affect how we live is super important. Arguing that beliefs, especially regarding one's behavior, should be enshrined in law is way beyond the purview of our thread.

Nth Doctor posted:

No but you're the bestest horse in these here parts, and that counts for a lot.

Thanks guys :S

Here is me enjoying my dinner, I hope you all are enjoying a similarly high-fiber diet:




ThePopeOfFun posted:

I agree with Fritz. Talking about how our beliefs affect how we live is super important. Arguing that beliefs, especially regarding one's behavior, should be enshrined in law is way beyond the purview of our thread.

What I was trying to get at is expressing your personal beliefs is fine. Suggesting the religious beliefs/doctrine you adhere to should apply to others is going to ruffle some feathers.

Just to use a personal example: I'm a gay horse. I'm not offended if someone here posts along the lines of "my religious tradition believes marriage is between a male horse and female horse and does not recognize same-sex horse unions." I respect your beliefs and tradition even if I disagree.

Where I would get prickly is if you suggest your tradition or personal beliefs should be applied to society as a whole. There's a difference between "I personally or my tradition believes X" and "I would like a society where X applies to you" because that makes it personal.

edit:

Bilirubin posted:

Cool hi! Biochem is something I missed but am getting via a current student in spades. I'm vert but my undergrad was in geology so I know both invert and sed-strat (and structure) pretty well.

(I liked chemistry so much in ugrad I almost switched to metamorphic petrology for my focus, its so cool)

sweet! we went fossil hunting all the time as kids, I have a large collection of Cenozoic mammal fossils. lots of ?camel? and ?toed horse? teeth, bone fragments, petrified wood etc. I'm in South Dakota, we have lots of fossil beds 'round here

Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Jan 25, 2021

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

docbeard posted:

(partly because of what happened the last time Anabaptists tried that)

Hmm what happened??

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Yeah I'm familiar with the Munster rebellion in general terms, just wondered if docbeard had a favorite telling of that history.

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

There are a lot of Hutterite colonies in the Dakotas and yes they do communal ownership. They have little self-sustained communities out in the middle of nowhere. They don't entirely shun modern technology and enthusiastically make use of modern agricultural/industrial machinery. My uncle did a lot of electrical work for Hutterite colonies, they have big poultry and meatpacking shops. They sell a lot of produce to local grocery stores.

You'll run into groups of Hutterites at like Walmart all the time. A family of people in traditional clothes, talking in German, then they take their Walmart stuff out to the car.


edit: the historical background of the Hutterites and others on the northern Plains is they're largely Germans from Russia. Catherine the Great (German herself) invited German settlers to farm the Volga region with guarantees they wouldn't be conscripted into the army and would have freedom of religion. Quite a few Anabaptist groups took that offer, they were often not welcome in much of Europe because they refused to serve in the military or pay taxes that would fund the military. The exemption from conscription and freedom of religion didn't last and most of them emigrated starting in the 1860s. Many settled in the northern Plains because they were experienced in dryland agriculture and familiar with steppe climates. German Russians have a reputation for being more conservative/traditional than other German immigrant groups.

Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Jan 26, 2021

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Paladinus posted:

There is also a sizeable community of Russian-speaking Germans in Kazakhstan, mostly Protestants, and some Catholics. They established some villages there back in the 19th century, and then later many ethnic Germans were deported there from all over USSR.

yup those are the remnants that didn't bail

My great-grandmother (everyone refers to her as grossmutter) was still alive when I was a toddler, she grew up speaking German and taught herself English by doing her children's grade-school homework. That side of the family were part owners/editors of Dakota Freie Presse which was the major newspaper for German Russians globally. An interesting thing I did not know,

quote:

In 1924, the DFP became the first paper published in the United States to be allowed re-entry into the Soviet Union.

It's an important ethnic group in the region but doesn't have much cachet in the broader culture. I think a lot of that is because of the World Wars, German language and identity in America got very unpopular.

(for whatever reason an unusually large proportion of the posters in this thread are from the Upper Midwest)

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Antivehicular posted:

Apologies if this is straying too far off-topic, but can anyone recommend any good books on the topic of German immigration to the US, particularly the Upper Midwest? My mother's family is German Catholics in Minnesota (and my grandfather spoke German as his first/home language, which I only learned a few years ago). I'm going to ask my mom about what family history she knows and if anyone on that side has done any genealogical work, but a general book on the history of those immigrants would be really interesting.

Well, related to my previous post, one of the owner/editors of Dakota Freie Presse wrote a book on migration of the Volga Germans. There are a couple copies that are family heirlooms. It just so happens to be completely digitized and free!

A son of Colonia the forgotten by Gustav Gottlieb Wenzlaff https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$b28459&view=1up&seq=9

That might be more specific than what you're looking for if what you want is a more general text. This is about the history of the Russian Germans and one family's migration to the Dakotas.

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Also up on skimming some of that book, I should note it has some pretty gross glorification of The German Race and talks about how Russian Germans were purer than those back in the German Empire. It was published in 1937. So, y'know.

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

That's a weird take on inductive reasoning, I guess.

As someone who has significant experience with psychedelics I really don't consider it similar to religious experiences. That's just me though.

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

me, catching up on religionthread: a Satanist? oh no

me, a few posts later: not bad

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Bourricot posted:

I self-identify as a Reformed Protestant, but more due to heritage/cultural inertia than theological grounds (to be honest, I often struggle with some parts of Reformed theology).
I'd appreciate this thread insight on something that's been bugging me: I've been reading James 2 recently, and how do you explain sola fide next to James 2:17 "Faith that doesn't lead us to do good deeds is all alone and dead!" (and the next verses continue in the same spirit).
I keep thinking about it and I can't find a satisfying answer. So I welcome any and all viewpoints on the subject.

This is probably overly reductive but the mainstream Protestant take is usually that faith and accepting God's grace is what grants us salvation, but if we truly have saving faith then good works are a natural outgrowth of it. The good works don't "earn" you salvation, but if you're not doing good works your faith isn't very genuine.

Something like:

faith -> God's grace -> salvation -> good works as a natural consequence of that saving faith


Salvation is a product of faith alone, but good works are a necessary product of genuine faith.

What comes first, the saving faith or the good works?


edit: to try and match this with the boat analogy - you're in a life raft with a paddle and emergency rations. You're not going to get to shore by paddling, it doesn't make a difference against the vast ocean (of sin). But you want to survive, so you paddle anyway and eat/drink the rations because of your desire to live and reach safety. It's the right thing to do.

Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Mar 4, 2021

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Keromaru5 posted:

Also, the Orthodox likes boat metaphors as well--the Church is the new Noah's Ark, Christ is the captain, who helps the Saints with steering, and the canons are the Rudder.

first read this as "cannons" and was trying to figure out what Orthoboat is shooting at, maybe demons or something??

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Lutha Mahtin posted:

gregorian calendars

load the cannons with righteous shot and prepare to fire a broadside volley at the Filioque

and also instrumental church music

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Zazz Razzamatazz posted:

So what are the differences between the Orthodox churches? If someone was going to take Hey Guns' advice and become Orthodox how do they choose?

from what I recall,

They're supposed to be national churches (Russian, Greek, Romanian, Serbian, etc) but the patriarchs fight over who gets jurisdiction in the US. The differences between them are more political than theological. Each church is going to use its specific language and mostly be attended by members of that nationality/ethnicity.

Greek churches are more likely to have heretical "modern" "innovations" like pews and instrumental music.

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

CarpenterWalrus posted:

Keeping an entire human being around as humble-drip is some next-level Buddhist smug game.

I just wanna say your (chill, measured) Satanism and sincere posting is an interesting and appreciated (imo) contribution to the thread. In my opinion.

In local news,


COMPUTER.

ENHANCE



oh deer

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Christ is risen indeed!

Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

docbeard posted:

One of the ways Menno Simons described what he called "true evangelical faith" (speaking of loaded religious terms!) was that it "becomes all things to all people". I'm not a hundred percent sure what that was intended to mean but this discussion has made me think of it a lot.

how would the history of Anabaptism have gone differently if it was Womenno Simons??

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Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

Oh boy um er this is certainly A Take

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/teenage-pregnancy-vs-the-success-sequence/

quote:

The Conservative Case For Teen Pregnancy
Where the success sequence is parsimonious, pregnancy is liberal in the old-fashioned sense of the word, even munificent.

The writing is also terrible. Someone ate two whole thesauruses for breakfast.

(I am not at all a fan of Walther, to put it lightly)

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