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D34THROW posted:Is there a Christian music thread on SA or would this be it? I searched for Christian, gospel, worship, and got...jack. I still listen to a lot of the '80s-'90s alternative and underground stuff that was going on then. One of the most cherished, pivotal memories in my life is of being a teenager and listening to this mealy-mouthed, mild-mannered guy play a wide variety of the most radical and weird and hardcore music in a couple of hours every weekend on a local Christian music station. I couldn't get a good signal inside the house so I'd sit out in my dad's car in the driveway in the dark, shivering with the cold and excitement, and having my mind blown that this kind of music could even exist, let alone be made by Christians, especially early electronic and industrial like Dance House Children/Joy Electric, Mortal, Deitiphobia, and others.
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Sep 3, 2021 04:13
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D34THROW posted:The concept of Christian rap and Christian screamo still blow my mind. I used to think it was all stodgy worship-type hymnal stuff but I've rapidly learned that it really does run the gamut of styles these days. Just on Spotify's Christian section alone, there's pop, rock, hip hop, and R&B. My first glimmer of eye-opening was around 1990 when my mom heard Petra's softer ballad "First Love," and bought the album it was on only to discover they're more of an arena rock band, and gave it to me instead. It only took a few more years for me to discover a whole world of awesome stuff that was experimental or underground then and hardly known at all today. I sometimes wonder if these people feel forgotten or like no one appreciates what they did. Well, I do remember and appreciate. I feel like I have a lot more I could talk about on this topic and it's not something I get to discuss much, anywhere.
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Sep 3, 2021 20:04
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First question, and not to be snarky, but did you ever read the Bible you were given? What did you think of what it says? You have an interest in it, clearly, but what in particular draws you?
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Sep 4, 2021 03:44
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I suppose as a thread newbie myself, now as I'm diving in would be as good a time as any for an introduction, so you can know where I'm coming from. I grew up and remain in the Brethren church, a small forgotten Anabaptist group related most closely to the Amish and Mennonites. There aren't any hard restrictions on dress or technology like some of the others, but simple living is still encouraged, and pacifism is an official tenet. Some of the older men when I was growing up did still wear neither buttons nor neckties, and the older ladies wore hair coverings. The strongest challenges to my faith came in my 20s - as typical for most, in college, but from a Christian professor who was a strong believer in the Socratic method. He wanted to make us actually think for ourselves about our faith instead of coasting on our upbringing, and I think if you haven't gone through what I call the uncanny valley of the soul, you're not doing faith right. I never really stopped believing, but it took a long time to put the pieces back together and I was often angry with God because I couldn't find someone to share my life and start a family with. Now I have a wife and 7 kids as well as a granddaughter, so be careful what you pray for, lol. I've attended churches in most different traditions at least once, from Orthodox to Catholic to various Protestant groups, a Black church, a few charismatic ones like the Assemblies of God, and even one nondenominational that sincerely worried and dismayed me when they were all waving their offerings around like they were showing them off, and called their worship leader "The Prophet." Aside from the last one I found them all interesting and welcoming and comfortable, even though I do not fit in perfectly to any one of them. I have a pretty oblique approach to life and I am usually very reserved because I don't fit in anywhere. I made peace with that a long time ago, but it does limit how involved I get with people. Years ago I became a member of the AoG church where I met my wife, and of their 16 "essential doctrines" I agreed with 11, and to their credit they still let me join even though I said so on the written application. I'm philosophically opposed to unanimity, especially enforced, and I'm a radical supporter of free speech. Most of you, from reading earlier in the thread, would probably find me shockingly right-wing, but the older I get the less sure I am how to fix society. I think economics and politics are just chipping away at the edges, and we have more important business in the human heart.
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Sep 4, 2021 04:52
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I definitely agree that while going by a list of doctrines may be useful in some sense, it's necessarily severely reductionist when it comes to actual faith communities. There's no substitute for spending time with people.
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Sep 4, 2021 13:47
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Please define "carefree" e: and "happy"
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Sep 6, 2021 02:37
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docbeard posted:I'll keep an ear open when I start listening properly, because that's definitely something I'd be interested in learning more about. I haven't followed the industry side of Christian music in probably decades (and even then only vaguely, as a fan). I was mostly into the Choir/77s/Daniel Amos side of Christian alternative stuff back in the day, as well as the folk-rock mainstream side (Phil Keaggy, Randy Stonehill, Rich Mullins, Mark Heard, etc.) more than I was the pop stuff. Oh man, DA and the 77s are still my favorite bands of all time. Nice to see a fellow fan in the wild; no one I know even has any idea who they are.
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Sep 7, 2021 17:37
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Slimy Hog posted:I forgot to mention what was my favorite Christian band when I was younger: Officer Negative I have never heard of this band, but a minute in and I like them already. We definitely need a thread for this kind of thing.
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Sep 8, 2021 03:44
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I never would have guessed this was from the '90s, I'm not super knowledgeable about punk but it sounds more like early Lifesavers or the "I Hate You" song from Star Trek 4.
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Sep 8, 2021 04:02
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By temperament I really want to be a universalist, although I am not. I still don't know what to make of people who follow other faiths - it's not a matter of simply having completely correct doctrine or theology, because I don't think anyone does have, including myself. I think we're all trying to worship the same God, even if all of us have a more or less distorted idea of who he is and what he's like. But I also think it does matter what we believe, and I will not say that all religions are true or equally good/valid paths to God. I do think small-T truths can be found anywhere and I can absolutely learn some things from my Muslim brothers. Division and hatred are tools Satan uses against us all.
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Sep 10, 2021 04:44
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I don't think I would say God comes in many ways; but I do think he meets people where they are, and he speaks to everyone insofar as they will listen. God wants to be a universalist too - that's plainly stated in the Bible. But I think there's a difference between seeking God in varying degrees of ignorance (which necessarily describes all seekers), and rejecting him.
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Sep 10, 2021 12:39
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I will also say it's possible to reject God while ostensibly believing (the Bible is also clear on that), and possible to be seeking God unknowingly even as an atheist. It's far better to know more clearly and believe, and I wrestle with this question a lot, but I don't think it's as clear cut as many want to make it.
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Sep 10, 2021 13:04
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No, speaking for myself, I'm still a weirdo. Just a different kind of weirdo than the stereotypical goon.
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Sep 13, 2021 17:26
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Cyrano4747 posted:Ehhhhh, I'll just kinda throw out there that a lot of women can get treated pretty abhorrently while dressed in ways that wouldn't cause a stir at a Sunday prayer meeting. Dressing "modestly" (however you want to define that) isn't always protection from getting creeped on. Sexual harassment happens to people wearing literal work coveralls. I don't think anyone's saying that in here.
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Sep 14, 2021 03:21
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Goblin Craft posted:I don't think anyone's saying that in here. In light of recent events, I hereby retract this post. The benefit of the doubt has been nullified.
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Sep 15, 2021 00:05
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fan fiction sequel to the book of Job incoming...
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Sep 22, 2021 17:34
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I think with our contemporary perspective it's easy, but uncharitable, to say it was an ideological, or even a conscious, bias on their part, especially as a blanket statement.
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Oct 13, 2021 16:38
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White Coke posted:That remind me of something I've seen brought up about the afterlife, which is what happens to our personalities. Are they frozen in place at death or will we be able to change as we experience eternal life? Asking that question is a little like the philosophical question, am I the same person today that I was yesterday? There's a discontinuity of consciousness and any number of things can be different in my body than the night before. What about people with dementia, or even after e.g. a stroke or some other brain damage? I don't think the death of the physical body is tying a pretty little bow on me and zipping me up to heaven as I am, to remain on the shelf. Far from it! The first thing I'd expect and most deeply hope for is the eucatastrophe of meeting Jesus face to face, and who knows how that alone will change me. But even Jesus said the afterlife isn't what we're probably expecting (when posed the question of which of multiple wives would one be married to there), and also didn't go into any detail about it. I don't think anyone this side of death really has a solidly accurate idea of what happens after, truly.
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Oct 19, 2021 04:17
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Notahippie posted:That reminds me of the story of Oran of Iona, who apocryphally was buried alive under the foundation of a chapel in Iona and a while later raised his head from the ground and remarked "There is no Hell as you suppose, nor Heaven that people talk about," at which point he was rapidly re-buried so that nobody would hear him spouting heresy. I don't know if that's what I would take away from it. The question posed to Jesus was what if a woman is a widow several times over, so which husband would be married to in heaven? And Jesus says more or less, you don't know what you're talking about with that kind of question, there is no marriage there as such. That seems to be a much narrower denial, it's more saying it's a lack of both imagination and understanding of the scriptures, to think that heaven is just an improved continuation of earthly life. He forthrightly taught on the resurrection of the body after death, and heaven and hell, just without an abundance of detail.
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Oct 19, 2021 16:37
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Deteriorata posted:My take on it is that our personalities are constrained by being stuck in a body. The chemical imbalances in our brains limit how much our true selves can be expressed in this life. Dying liberates our personalities from those constraints and allows us to be and experience our true selves. I can go along with this; explains a lot about why people didn't always immediately recognize the resurrected Jesus.
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Oct 20, 2021 04:04
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Oh I hadn't heard anything about that yet, but a couple Mennonite folks I'm acquainted with here (Michigan though) were going to Haiti, about a month ago I think. 😕
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Oct 22, 2021 05:22
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Tias posted:What did Jesus say that was similar? Sorry if it was mentioned, I can't find it. They were replying to me. Winifred Madgers posted:... Winifred Madgers posted:I don't know if that's what I would take away from it. The question posed to Jesus was what if a woman is a widow several times over, so which husband would be married to in heaven? And Jesus says more or less, you don't know what you're talking about with that kind of question, there is no marriage there as such. That seems to be a much narrower denial, it's more saying it's a lack of both imagination and understanding of the scriptures, to think that heaven is just an improved continuation of earthly life. He forthrightly taught on the resurrection of the body after death, and heaven and hell, just without an abundance of detail.
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Oct 26, 2021 13:10
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Same here, I got on a few channels when the uncertainty here increased, because I didn't want to lose my internet home, but that was enough to tell me it wasn't going to be a long term solution.
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Nov 12, 2021 18:57
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Nessus posted:This has always mystified me a little, like God won't use His super-powers to cure the Pope's rheumatism unless he gets 8 million prayer-ups. While I kind of get it's more prayer being an inherent good, I am curious about the like, theology behind this. Is it like merit accumulation? The pope, and any other person in authority within the church like ministers and teachers (explicitly in the scriptures), has a special responsibility and because of that is held to a higher standard. I don't know if he's praying for rheumatism, he might be as well, but primarily I'm sure he's more asking for those millions to ask God to keep him on the right path, stay safe from spiritual oppression - the more visible the person, the bigger the target because his errors could cause others to walk away from the faith, etc.
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Nov 16, 2021 13:37
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Sorry I misunderstood your question, Nessus, and I think there's some support for that in scripture too, e.g. "where two or more are gathered in my name, I am there with them." There's also evidence for intensity making a difference, although of course it's not a magic formula either - Jesus in the garden at Gethsemane praying to avoid the coming crucifixion is in a way very reassuring, both in terms of his humanity, and a reminder that God is not against me even when he tells me, "No." As with many things I believe it's "both-and" - prayer is for our own benefit in connecting with God, but also his way of bringing us into direct participation affecting the spiritual realm and the physical world. It's like when I ask my kids what they want for dinner, if everyone's on the same page that does give it more weight even if what they want isn't workable for some reason. And it's important for them to be heard. On that note I prayed for Lowtax. I didn't do that enough when he was alive and that's on me. Sometimes I remember to do that, like I don't remember the name but someone was convicted of murder some years ago and I prayed for him as if he were my brother, because in a way he is. I've prayed for Hitler. I don't know if anything could be done for these people but I think it's important, for me, to pray for those least likely to be prayed for. It's easy to pray for a family member or the pope, and that's good to do, but Jesus came to save the scumbags of the world too. Maybe there isn't much hope, but it's something I do. I would want someone to do that for me too. I didn't stay on topic very well there.
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Nov 16, 2021 19:18
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Minor schminor, God is always speaking and reaching out to us, if we will but listen. Most often he does speak softly and gently because he wants us to want to listen.
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Dec 21, 2021 13:52
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D34THROW posted:I think the days where He shouts from the mouths of prophets are long gone. Too many chances given to the Hebrews, too many prophets warning them to turn from wicked ways. I think that the best way to get us to listen and listen well for His word is to speak softly and keep our eyes and hearts open to the little things in life. Like a cat showing up at your doorstep. Even in the days of Elijah, when he sat on the mountain, God was not in the wind, or the earthquake, or the fire, but in a gentle whisper. I read that as God is not in the world, which is clamoring to drown out and shout down God's voice, but those who seek will find. Similar to the fable of the sun and the wind, or from Proverbs: It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.
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Dec 21, 2021 18:55
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Absolutely, and I'd go so far as to say that if you don't feel that, at least at some point even if not constantly or repeatedly, you're probably living an unexamined life. I think we need the dark night of the soul, or what I've taken to calling the uncanny valley of doubt, in order to go further and climb higher.
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Jan 11, 2022 18:11
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Nessus posted:I have had similar feelings myself, if usually when I'm tired or if I've been having bad acid reflux that day. That is absolutely not the worst case, which would be some form of Hades or Hell.
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Jan 14, 2022 13:38
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I'll go along with that. I can't really conceive of not existing, though of course the universe got on just fine without me until a few decades ago. Well we'll all find out soon enough.
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Jan 14, 2022 18:42
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Gaius Marius posted:The world is not a living hell This seems like a very subjective and contingent statement. I mean, I agree, in a sense, but there's also a lot more to it.
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Jan 15, 2022 04:27
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That seems a little uncharitable, not least toward God. You find it less likely, for example, that God might be something like what the people you deride believe in (personal/personish, relational, etc.), but that they've got the wrong end of the stick about him in some or many ways, even though they are already wrong in your view about other things?
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Jan 18, 2022 04:36
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Caufman posted:Oof, yes. That is uncharitable of me. Mea culpa. I'm also having a little trouble parsing your last sentence. Yes, even as I was writing it I was thinking there's go to be a less clunky way of saying it, I'll try to get it a little more clear. Your concept of a personal God seems tightly tied to the dogmas of people you think are wrong about many things, which is understandable. But it reads to me as an all-or-nothing proposition, and the form of your list seems to say you find it more likely they're entirely incorrect, or more to the point entirely correct, than that they are dimly correct about God's personhood but with a lot of cruft and misconceptions about some of the other particulars. I think I see where you're coming from, but I found that a puzzling omission. Not that I expect an exhaustive continuum from an internet post, and I think to some degree, myself squarely included, we all have incomplete, incorrect, and incoherent ideas of what and who God really is.
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Jan 18, 2022 18:49
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I was saying Boo-dhism
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Jan 20, 2022 10:08
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NikkolasKing posted:My interest is pretty much exclusively intellectual history and there's all sorts of studies of how even things we take for granted are so different. Emotions have changed over time, we literally don't feel the same way people hundreds of years ago did. I don't know how this could possibly be known. E: and I see I left this open too long trying to come up with a better reply.
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Feb 7, 2022 19:15
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Killingyouguy! posted:All great questions which I do not have answers for! I kind of figured religious people have some kind of innate sense of what's the correct answer that I just lack. My thought on this is more that God so much wants it to be uncoerced, that he allows it to be obscure and difficult to figure out. He doesn't want just obedience, he wants people who seek him.
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Feb 10, 2022 20:18
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That seems a little unfair to Calvinists. It changes nothing in a practical sense, it's more of a philosophical stance. A believer in free will says, I may be the instrument God intends to save this person, so I must preach the good news or else they might not hear, and never believe. A Calvinist says, I may be the instrument God foreordained to save this person, so I must preach the good news because I do not know whom God has chosen and whom he has not - but if he has chosen me, as it seems he has (thanks be to God), the best evidence I have is that I want to obey him and preach the good news.
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Feb 21, 2022 07:10
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PortobelloPoBoy posted:That’s the best way I’ve ever Calvinism explained. I still can’t wrap my head around that way of looking at the world, but I could imagine someone having that thought process. I've wrestled with it for decades and sort of made my peace with the idea that either way it's above my pay grade.
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Feb 21, 2022 13:47
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Caufman posted:There is something very disturbing about Christian symbols being used to advance the nationalism and imperialism of great powers, especially when those symbols are applied to instruments of violence. When Jesus was preparing to send his disciples out into potentially dangerous work, he told his disciples to carry swords. They had two swords between the twelve gathered at the time, and Jesus said that was enough, and stopped the discussion of weapons right there. That is very different from the industrialization and sanctification of violence that continues to happen in places that are nominally Christian in identity but reveal themselves to still care more about power in their actions. Our pastor recently preached on this very passage and said, even further than that, carrying the swords was only to fulfill the prophecy that he would be counted as an outlaw, since weapons were proscribed to the Jews.
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Mar 2, 2022 04:59
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D34THROW posted:Atheists get a bad rap. I've met too many anti-religious atheists and/or militant atheists in my time as an internet denizen to not be cynical but I'm sure there are many, many more out there who aren't going to poo poo on me for being a devoted Christian. I don't know if any of you here have watched Babylon 5, but the creator and showrunner J. Michael Straczynski self-describes as an atheist who's fascinated by religion. He doesn't think it's true in the literal sense, but does see a lot of meaning and truths in it. I think I'm pretty close to that perspective, just from the side of Christianity. I think it's true, but I also think there's a lot of value and truths to be found in other faiths. That's not to say I think all paths lead to God, but more in terms of learning more, thinking charitably of others, and wanting to relate to people rather than to try conquering them with my ideas.
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Mar 7, 2022 19:25
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