Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.


And there was the Johnathan Nathan Turner controversy from a few years ago.

Apparently Eric Saward said that Colin Baker lacked "the energy and eccentricity that the part calls for" and that's just factual incorrect.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017


OldMemes posted:

And there was the Johnathan Nathan Turner controversy from a few years ago.

Apparently Eric Saward said that Colin Baker lacked "the energy and eccentricity that the part calls for" and that's just factual incorrect.

Pretty sure it was the writers and stories that lacked the writing that would let him unleash the energy and eccentricity, no?

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.



MrL_JaKiri posted:

Obviously anyone who underestimates Delia Derbyshire or Verity Lambert needs a seeing to, though

Verity was basically the showrunner for Hartnell's first couple of seasons, so I agree 100% that her role in the show's development is immeasurably large. And Delia Derbyshire should just be acknowledged as awesome in general.

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.


Vinylshadow posted:

Pretty sure it was the writers and stories that lacked the writing that would let him unleash the energy and eccentricity, no?

Yep, he was stuck with a bad costume, Michael Grade personally gunning for him and some bad scripts. You can't accuse Baker of lacking energy! Dude was putting a lot of energy in - the Sixth Doctor is louder, angrier and has access to a time machine, but very few good scripts. Peri and Mel weren't written as the best foils for him either, but that's been fixed now.

Class3KillStorm
Feb 17, 2011





OldMemes posted:

Yep, he was stuck with a bad costume, Michael Grade personally gunning for him and some bad scripts. You can't accuse Baker of lacking energy! Dude was putting a lot of energy in - the Sixth Doctor is louder, angrier and has access to a time machine, but very few good scripts. Peri and Mel weren't written as the best foils for him either, but that's been fixed now.

I think Jamie's presence and function in "The Two Doctors" proved that Six worked best when he had multiple companions to bounce off of, as it allowed him to modulate his responses. He and Peri had a fairly one-note relationship, at least in his first season, so giving him someone else to communicate with kind of sanded down his rougher edges. Shame that they didn't learn anything from that experience and expand on the two-person team structure throughout the rest of JNT's tenure.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


MrL_JaKiri posted:

Obviously anyone who underestimates Delia Derbyshire or Verity Lambert needs a seeing to, though



I love the story about Ron Grainer listening to the theme, going,"Did I write this? " and Delia Derbyshire saying something like,"...technically, yes "

Payndz
Sep 22, 2006

I'm Peter Graves, and I was wondering if you could direct me to the natatorium, as I'm attending a Scuderia Ferrari team-building exercise. Thank you. I'm Peter Graves.


Jerusalem posted:



I love the story about Ron Grainer listening to the theme, going,"Did I write this? " and Delia Derbyshire saying something like,"...technically, yes "
Somewhere on YouTube is a rendition of Grainer's music done as a 'normal' TV theme of the era, and had something like it been used I doubt the show would have lasted so long.

Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017


Payndz posted:

Somewhere on YouTube is a rendition of Grainer's music done as a 'normal' TV theme of the era, and had something like it been used I doubt the show would have lasted so long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1SZs4xudf8

I can easily see that being used for an 80's sitcom - I think it'd fit rather well in the Cushing Doctor's timeline

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Apparently there’s leaked pictures of early animatics for Evil of the Daleks.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


The_Doctor posted:

Apparently there’s leaked pictures of early animatics for Evil of the Daleks.

Oh awesome, I was just thinking the other day how odd it was they hadn't done that one yet.

Zaroff
Nov 10, 2009

Nothing in the world can stop me now!

Jerusalem posted:

Oh awesome, I was just thinking the other day how odd it was they hadn't done that one yet.

It’s been strongly rumoured (as well as confirmed-but-then-retracted by the Doctor Who Figurine Collection) that the next two animations being worked on are Evil and Abominable Snowmen.

Aside from the already-confirmed Web of Fear: 3...

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible





https://twitter.com/bigfinish/status/1390313904673226754?s=20

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Sydney Bottocks posted:

That's because (as Jakiri pointed out), that's not how the running of the show works anymore. The showrunner model is basically the same principle as the auteur theory of filmmaking: that there is one singular creative vision behind the show/film and they have the final say. Julie Gardner may have had some input on certain things, but at the end of the day she was working for RTD and he was the one that made the final decisions regarding the show, both on and off screen. Gardner wrangled a bunch of things behind the scenes, for which she most certainly deserves a ton of credit, but she wasn't writing and rewriting scripts or coming up with overarching storylines or deciding the format the series should take. It's akin to saying the foreman of the construction crew should get equal credit for the design of the building that the architect came up with.

The showeunner model is not entirely a myth, but is partly a myth. I haven’t obsessively followed the production of Who in the way I have a few other programs, but even an extremely auteur-centric show like Babylon 5 ends up having a bunch of collaborations. Being in charge of the budget comes with considerable influence over what can and can’t be done, and even a lowly producer can have a huge influence over a show.

Women, historically, have had their roles in collaborative enterprises (and make no mistake, TV production is collaborative no matter how powerful the showrunner) minimized, and the auteur theory is one effective way to do it. That doesn’t require us all to be credulous enough to believe in it.

Confusedslight
Jan 8, 2020


More allegations. this time on the set of dr who

I'm really curious what Noel thinks his end game is here. He must know hirring lawyers who deny almost everything on his behalf is a terrible look.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


He should probably cash out every dime he has and disappear.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


I assume Barrowman behaves himself now as he’s still getting work, but he should honestly have known better in the first place and doesn’t let him off the hook.

Clarke’s career is gone now, though.

McGann
May 18, 2003

Get up you son of a bitch! 'Cause Mickey loves you!



The_Doctor posted:

I assume Barrowman behaves himself now as he’s still getting work, but he should honestly have known better in the first place and doesn’t let him off the hook.

Clarke’s career is gone now, though.

Yeah, Clarke is toast. Barrowman will limp away successfully and have the opportunity to redeem himself, at least based on the tone in these stories:

quote:

Barrowman, who played the character of Capt Jack Harkness in Doctor Who and its spin-off show Torchwood, is accused of exposing himself repeatedly on both sets, although numerous witnesses described the incidents as inappropriate pranks rather than anything amounting to sexually predatory behaviour.

Advertisement
Contacted by the Guardian, Barrowman admitted to “tomfoolery” that he now understood upset colleagues, but stressed it was never intended or interpreted as sexual in nature.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible





https://twitter.com/bigfinish/status/1390683422557982720?s=20

Davros1 fucked around with this message at 15:30 on May 7, 2021

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



Jerusalem posted:

It really is amazing how I went from sad to see Tennant go to utterly enamored with Smith IMMEDIATELY. He's just having such an amazing time and so happy to be alive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVEY5AL5zzk

Welp, time to rewatch all of season 5 again!

I made this hump again the other day and I'm always caught off guard how sad I am at the transition and how quickly Matt Smith wins me back over. I think Matt Smith might've been the first doctor I ever saw, I think the first episode was kind ofa big story moment, Astronaut in American Desert and all. I was pretty baffled by the show, and that's probably one of the more confusing possible episodes to jump in on. Wasn't sold on the Doctor at first but I liked Amy and decided to go back to the start and got hooked on it since. Sometimes I think my favorite doctor is just whichever one I'm watching presently.

howe_sam posted:

e: ^^^ lol, I guess I was tilting at windmills a little, but my central point about how casting Gillen changed up the visual dynamic of the show stands.

What do you mean? Hasn't the show ALWAYS paired some attractive young woman with the Doctor usually as an older UK-looking dude? Granted, Amy is the first sex-worker companion but I don't think that really had any lasting effect on things.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.



Narsham posted:

The showeunner model is not entirely a myth, but is partly a myth. I haven’t obsessively followed the production of Who in the way I have a few other programs, but even an extremely auteur-centric show like Babylon 5 ends up having a bunch of collaborations. Being in charge of the budget comes with considerable influence over what can and can’t be done, and even a lowly producer can have a huge influence over a show.

Women, historically, have had their roles in collaborative enterprises (and make no mistake, TV production is collaborative no matter how powerful the showrunner) minimized, and the auteur theory is one effective way to do it. That doesn’t require us all to be credulous enough to believe in it.

As was already pointed out, you're not making the same argument for Brian Minchin or Mark Strevins, so it honestly comes across like you're trying to gin up outrage over an issue that really isn't an issue.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?


Khanstant posted:

What do you mean? Hasn't the show ALWAYS paired some attractive young woman with the Doctor usually as an older UK-looking dude? Granted, Amy is the first sex-worker companion but I don't think that really had any lasting effect on things.

They mean in terms of how the camera works. Gillen and Smith are the same height.

Ms Boods
Mar 19, 2009

Did you ever wonder where the Romans got bread from? It wasn't from Waitrose!


Vinylshadow posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1SZs4xudf8

I can easily see that being used for an 80's sitcom - I think it'd fit rather well in the Cushing Doctor's timeline

Initial reaction was 'oohkay', then the middle 8 kicked in, and there was no way the cat and I could resist bopping along with it. The build-up to the second repeat of the middle 8 with the key-change?

The cat enjoyed it, too.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



I blame that movie Waiting for all of the testicles or penises I've seen in the workplace.

DoctorWhat posted:

They mean in terms of how the camera works. Gillen and Smith are the same height.

Cameras have always added 1 or 2 inches to the person being filmed, they could obviously make anyone set to whatever height they needed by adding more cameras.

Khanstant fucked around with this message at 15:51 on May 7, 2021

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.



Completely unrelated to anything else going on ITT: I somehow never noticed until now that Noomi Rapace's character in Prometheus, in addition to being named Dr. Elizabeth Shaw, has a reddish tint to her hair and is British. We all know the urban legend that Ridley Scott worked on a DW episode (he didn't; he was reportedly supposed to help design the Daleks, but was unavailable and so the job went to Raymond Cusick), and as far as I know he's never really talked about DW (someone did ask him what he thought about them casting a woman in the role in a fairly recent interview, and I believe he was surprised, but that's about the extent of it), so I don't necessarily think he was knowingly making a nod to our favorite UNIT scientist that isn't the Doctor...but it sure is a hell of a coincidence that the two characters share a name and several other traits.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


Khanstant posted:

Cameras have always added 1 or 2 inches to the person being filmed, they could obviously make anyone set to whatever height they needed by adding more cameras.

They're not going full Hobbiton to make Smith seem taller than Gillen, like CE and DT were with their companions (which is the point being made)

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Khanstant posted:

Sometimes I think my favorite doctor is just whichever one I'm watching presently.

Pretty much how it works for me too.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!


Khanstant posted:

Sometimes I think my favorite doctor is just whichever one I'm watching presently.

Hypothesis confirmed.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


Jerusalem posted:

Pretty much how it works for me too.

Same unless I'm not watching a Troughton story

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


MrL_JaKiri posted:

Same unless I'm not watching a Troughton story

Look there's a quiet and polite agreement/social contract that we don't rub it in people's noses just how great Troughton was. Most of the lost Troughton stories were wiped due to hurt feelings which is what lead into the International Conference that came to this agreement to much global acclaim (Hartnell stories were wiped as cover by the primary instigator, Mr. Imnot Maduremad, which is the origin of that phrase).

What the hell are they even teaching kids in schools nowadays, anyway?

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


I've always taken the missing Troughtan tapes as proof that we are indeed living in the bad timeline.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007



MrL_JaKiri posted:

They're not going full Hobbiton to make Smith seem taller than Gillen, like CE and DT were with their companions (which is the point being made)

Oh wow, I legit did not know that. That's... so weird. Neurosis about relative dude altitude scars some people deep I guess. I was born the perfect height and managed to maintain perfect height every time the bumped it up a little, so I just don't know what it's like to be too tall or too short. Seems to really gently caress some people up.


Rhyno posted:

I've always taken the missing Troughtan tapes as proof that we are indeed living in the bad timeline.

Feel like I got some Brianstains Bares thing going on here. When I was a kid nearly all of the black and white Doctor Whos were lost, the BBC just taped over them because they couldn't afford to buy more VHS tapes.

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.


I think it was less not being able to afford to buy the film but more a question of being able to afford to store it.

The BBC could probably store a good amount of their stuff in the basement of Broadcasting House these days; back of a fag packet maths suggests between a regular plastic box full of hard-drives and a 6 inch stack of hard-drives on a pallet should be okay for a year of live TV output, but I’d have no reference on the scale of their B-roll.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!


Khanstant posted:

Oh wow, I legit did not know that. That's... so weird. Neurosis about relative dude altitude scars some people deep I guess. I was born the perfect height and managed to maintain perfect height every time the bumped it up a little, so I just don't know what it's like to be too tall or too short. Seems to really gently caress some people up.

It does matter for shooting though - the dalek redesign was largely because the original revival dalek was designed to be eye to eye with Piper, who is around 6 inches shorter than Gillen.

Khanstant posted:

Feel like I got some Brianstains Bares thing going on here. When I was a kid nearly all of the black and white Doctor Whos were lost, the BBC just taped over them because they couldn't afford to buy more VHS tapes.

The masters were wiped very quickly (in some cases weeks after broadcast). The 16mm copies were kept for a while though, and we basically missed out on them by only a few years because in the mid-late 70s it was decided that old Doctor Who had little commercial value.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible





Cute!

https://twitter.com/blufruity/status/1391011373778341888?s=20

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


Oh my god, Six and Twelve having a grump-off is adorable.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


War holding 7’s spoons!

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


I can see 10 reacting exactly like that to 1 as well

"Oh gosh, look how young I am! I'm so adorable!" to a spluttering 1 trying desperately to retain his dignity while 13 tousles "the kid's" hair.

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 23:17 on May 8, 2021

Narsham
Jun 5, 2008


Sydney Bottocks posted:

As was already pointed out, you're not making the same argument for Brian Minchin or Mark Strevins, so it honestly comes across like you're trying to gin up outrage over an issue that really isn't an issue.

Sydney Bottocks posted:

I know RTD's currently riding a wave of critical acclaim and good press because of "It's a Sin" and all, but people really need to be asking him "what did you know about this, and when did you know about it" in regards to this kind of poo poo happening while he was running the show.

Firstly, we're outraged about the same thing, or so I thought. Evidently not.

Secondly, I'm pleased to see the Guardian follow-up talked to both Gardiner and Davies, so evidently they understand that both were involved in running the show--in fact, it sounds like Gardiner was the one to reprimand Barrowman, although the story isn't entirely clear in that regard.

Thirdly, my point was that fandom tends to treat the "solo showrunners" of the new era as if they're the only ones making the decisions, and that this tendency means that the women involved with the show tend to have their contributions minimized, because no woman has "run the show" since Verity Lambert. Your response is that the same thing has happened to Minchin and Strevins, so it's OK? Or it isn't, but there's some "gotcha" because I didn't mention them? But you didn't pick Marcus Wilson, or Phil Collinson. Neither of us has been comprehensive in that regard. I was pointing to two women to demonstrate how the auteur model marginalized them. That you somehow think that male producers also being marginalized in this way justifies the auteur model is baffling to me; it doesn't. The auteur model isn't deserving of our support and defense, and it isn't how things actually work except in a few very dysfunctional cases. I don't really understand why anyone would go out of their way to defend it, and I didn't think attacking the auteur model would somehow turn into a controversy.

And I promise to stop posting on this topic in future, because it feels like it isn't a controversy except for me and Sydney.

In other news, was I the only one who saw Barrowman's "tomfoolery" statement whose mind went immediately to Tom Baker making a "Who, me" face?

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.



Narsham posted:

Thirdly, my point was that fandom tends to treat the "solo showrunners" of the new era as if they're the only ones making the decisions, and that this tendency means that the women involved with the show tend to have their contributions minimized, because no woman has "run the show" since Verity Lambert. Your response is that the same thing has happened to Minchin and Strevins, so it's OK? Or it isn't, but there's some "gotcha" because I didn't mention them? But you didn't pick Marcus Wilson, or Phil Collinson. Neither of us has been comprehensive in that regard. I was pointing to two women to demonstrate how the auteur model marginalized them. That you somehow think that male producers also being marginalized in this way justifies the auteur model is baffling to me; it doesn't. The auteur model isn't deserving of our support and defense, and it isn't how things actually work except in a few very dysfunctional cases. I don't really understand why anyone would go out of their way to defend it, and I didn't think attacking the auteur model would somehow turn into a controversy.

Again, my point is solely that Julie Gardner et al were not putting their creative vision on the screen, they worked to put RTD's vision on the screen. They weren't H.R. Giger working on Alien here, they were behind-the-scenes wranglers who made sure people got to where they were supposed to be, got money budgeted and made sure that money was properly allocated and accounted for, etc. You seem to be approaching this from the perspective that they had just as much creative input as RTD or Moffat or Chibnall in terms of stories and scripts and characters and that this input is somehow being minimized or denied, and that's just not the case. They may have offered their two cents worth and RTD or whoever may have asked for their opinions at times (and I'm sure they had to shoot down the more impractical or expensive ideas at times, too), but as I said before it was no more their own personal creative vision than a building is the creative vision of the guy who runs the construction crew. I'm not sure why you seem to be convinced that these particular ladies have somehow been denied their just due for a show that they basically ran behind the scenes so the showrunners could focus on the creative side of things; but at this point we're just talking past each other, so I agree that it's not really worth posting about any more.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001




Denying the existence of the showrunner model also means denying Chibnall the full share of the blame and I don't wanna live in that world.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply