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Rochallor
Apr 22, 2010


The_Doctor posted:

People are getting more creative in recreating the missing episodes. Refilming and deep faking and using the existing telesnaps and audio. Itís all very clever.

https://twitter.com/the66ramblers/status/1358780599482294272

https://twitter.com/the66ramblers/status/1359050712668278785

This is a neat project and it's just some person doing it in their spare time, so I don't want to poo poo on them too hard, but... watching this really hammers home the limitations of recreations and the like. You've got a normally expressive actor like Troughton looking like they're sitting through a time share presentation or something. It's just such an un-Troughton expression that it almost feels more out of place than the Archer-style animations, and that's before you even get into the slightly melty quality of deepfakes.

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Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Yeah it's a really cool concept and neat to see in action, but the physical performance is such a key thing, especially for somebody like Troughton. As a fun experiment though it is pretty drat awesome.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Vinylshadow
Mar 20, 2017


Hartnell and Troughton have fantastic expression work when they act and it's so much fun to see in motion

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?



I adore this

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Rhyno posted:

I adore this

It's a design by Paul Burley, and he's got it on Redbubble!

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible





https://twitter.com/scott_handcock/status/1361628235562377217?s=20

https://twitter.com/bigfinish/status/1361647262992982018?s=20

Gameko
Feb 23, 2006

The friend of all children!

Here's a discussion topic. Here in the USA, conventional wisdom states that the 6th doctor really killed the series and the 7th doctor saved it. (Of course the show was canceled after the 7th Doctor's run.) Any thoughts on that assertion?

I've liked the 6th doctor and 7th doctor episodes that I've seen and I honestly prefer the sixth doctor, though ace is one of the all time great companions. Why did the sixth doctor get such short shrift?

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.


Gameko posted:

Here's a discussion topic. Here in the USA, conventional wisdom states that the 6th doctor really killed the series and the 7th doctor saved it. (Of course the show was canceled after the 7th Doctor's run.) Any thoughts on that assertion?

I've liked the 6th doctor and 7th doctor episodes that I've seen and I honestly prefer the sixth doctor, though ace is one of the all time great companions. Why did the sixth doctor get such short shrift?

Colin Baker played the Doctor as more assertive and aggressive (the idea was that the sixth Doctor would mellow out over time), so he was less instantly likable than the grandfatherly charm of some Doctors, or the boyish friendly nature of others. Ratings were still respectable, but dipped from the 70s peak, mainly because they scheduled it against ITV's popular Coronation Street on the other channel, so the BBC put the show on hiatus for a year, and the original planned season was scrapped. The Doctor Who people had a lot of faith in Baker - he was offered the role without an audition, but the BBC didn't.

Some of the higher ups at the BBC turned on the show, and Trial of a Time Lord had production issues. In the end, the BBC fired Baker, scapegoating him for the whole ordeal. The Doctor Who production office asked Baker to film a regeneration story, but he refused, so they had McCoy in a blonde wig and Baker's coat just....fall over and die unceremoniously. Luckily, Big Finish gave him a chance to do the character how he wanted to in the end.

McCoy got stronger stories, especially towards the end of his run, but office politics at the BBC were still against the show. IIRC, it was never officially cancelled, the Doctor Who Production Office was planning the 1990 season, which was going to be McCoy and Aldred's last, and introduce a new companion, and the 8th Doctor, with Richard Griffiths being courted to play the part. They were worried about where the wind was blowing, so the Doctor's little monologue was added at the end of Survival. In the end, the BBC just....didn't commission the 1990 season, rather than outright cancelling the show. It took a while, and it was rough for some, but in the end, maybe it all turned out for the best.

tl;dr Basically Michael Grade didn't like Colin Baker.

OldMemes fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Feb 16, 2021

Zaroff
Nov 10, 2009

Nothing in the world can stop me now!

OldMemes posted:

Colin Baker played the Doctor as more assertive and aggressive (the idea was that the sixth Doctor would mellow out over time), so he was less instantly likable than the grandfatherly charm of some Doctors, or the boyish friendly nature of others. Ratings were still respectable, but dipped from the 70s peak, mainly because they scheduled it against ITV's popular Coronation Street on the other channel, so the BBC put the show on hiatus for a year, and the original planned season was scrapped. The Doctor Who people had a lot of faith in Baker - he was offered the role without an audition, but the BBC didn't.

tl;dr Basically Michael Grade didn't like Colin Baker.

This was an issue, but it didn't happen until 1987 when McCoy became the Doctor and the series moved to Wednesday evenings. Colin Baker in fact had moved back to the regular Saturday night slot after Peter Davison had been moved to various weeknight slots.

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.


Some guy on TikTok is doing "in a nutshell" versions of One serials (e.g. The Daleks), so if you fancy a laugh, check them out.

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.


In hindsight, giving Baker that coat was a bad idea, since it just distracted from the character.

OldMemes fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Feb 16, 2021

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


TinTower posted:

Some guy on TikTok is doing "in a nutshell" versions of One serials (e.g. The Daleks), so if you fancy a laugh, check them out.

Pretty sure that guy's just ripping off Keiran Hodgson's youtube stuff. That's definitely his audio, and the style's similar too.

I'd prove it, but Hodgson seems to have taken all his stuff down.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012


Zaroff posted:

This was an issue, but it didn't happen until 1987 when McCoy became the Doctor and the series moved to Wednesday evenings. Colin Baker in fact had moved back to the regular Saturday night slot after Peter Davison had been moved to various weeknight slots.

wonder if all this loving around with time slots might have had an impact

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible





Dabir posted:

wonder if all this loving around with time slots might have had an impact

Another problem was, in 1984 due to the broadcast of the Olympics, the BBC edited the four part broadcast of "Resurrection of the Daleks" into 2 45 minute episodes. It ended up pulling decent ratings, so the BBC said make the following season all 45 minute eps. But the scripts had been commissioned, and turned in, so they ended up having to due a lot of revision to fit that format, including adding scenes that really served no purpose other than to pad the run time. And in the end, the 45 minute runtime wasn't really that popular. Plus, the BBC would schedule it against slick US programming like The A-Team. Eric Saward and JN-T butting heads over the tone of the show should take didn't help either.

But honestly, as pointed above, the real big hit was Michael Grade. Not only did he hate Colin Baker (because Colin had dated an ex of his), Michael Grade flat out hated science fiction, particularly Doctor Who. In fact, when he resumed his post as head of the BBC in 2004, he inquired if it was possible to stop production on the new series of Who, only to be told that it was too far along to stop.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Open Source Idiom posted:

Pretty sure that guy's just ripping off Keiran Hodgson's youtube stuff. That's definitely his audio, and the style's similar too.

I'd prove it, but Hodgson seems to have taken all his stuff down.

It's not his audio

https://twitter.com/kieranchodgson/status/1355052221868761094

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.


Davros1 posted:

Another problem was, in 1984 due to the broadcast of the Olympics, the BBC edited the four part broadcast of "Resurrection of the Daleks" into 2 45 minute episodes. It ended up pulling decent ratings, so the BBC said make the following season all 45 minute eps. But the scripts had been commissioned, and turned in, so they ended up having to due a lot of revision to fit that format, including adding scenes that really served no purpose other than to pad the run time. And in the end, the 45 minute runtime wasn't really that popular. Plus, the BBC would schedule it against slick US programming like The A-Team. Eric Saward and JN-T butting heads over the tone of the show should take didn't help either.

But honestly, as pointed above, the real big hit was Michael Grade. Not only did he hate Colin Baker (because Colin had dated an ex of his), Michael Grade flat out hated science fiction, particularly Doctor Who. In fact, when he resumed his post as head of the BBC in 2004, he inquired if it was possible to stop production on the new series of Who, only to be told that it was too far along to stop.

Truly, Chris Morris said it best: Grade is a oval office.

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.


The Doctor didn't push them in the acid bath, they weren't following standard acid bath health and safety procedures.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


C.Bakes is the best Doctor because he taught me that it's perfectly acceptable to enter a party uninvited and be a tremendous rear end in a top hat to everyone you meet.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



Legit one of my favorite 1st Doctor bits is when he shows up out of nowhere in The Keys to Marinus to save Ian by acting as his lawyer.... except he has zero legal training and zero knowledge of the legal system of the zone (and planet!) they're on and is just there to win by sheer force of personality alone

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.



Davros1 posted:

Another problem was, in 1984 due to the broadcast of the Olympics, the BBC edited the four part broadcast of "Resurrection of the Daleks" into 2 45 minute episodes. It ended up pulling decent ratings, so the BBC said make the following season all 45 minute eps. But the scripts had been commissioned, and turned in, so they ended up having to due a lot of revision to fit that format, including adding scenes that really served no purpose other than to pad the run time. And in the end, the 45 minute runtime wasn't really that popular. Plus, the BBC would schedule it against slick US programming like The A-Team. Eric Saward and JN-T butting heads over the tone of the show should take didn't help either.

But honestly, as pointed above, the real big hit was Michael Grade. Not only did he hate Colin Baker (because Colin had dated an ex of his), Michael Grade flat out hated science fiction, particularly Doctor Who. In fact, when he resumed his post as head of the BBC in 2004, he inquired if it was possible to stop production on the new series of Who, only to be told that it was too far along to stop.

Didn't Parliament draft a resolution or something, when Grade went back to the Beeb, saying they wanted assurances that he would not in any way interfere with the revived series of DW?

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


The Queen has been getting some stick recently about using Queen's Consent for her benefit, but if things get really bad her people are going to salvage her reputation by revealing she wrote to Parliament in in the mid 2000s saying, and I quote,"Do not gently caress with Doctor Who, or I'll go you with a knife."

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible





Jerusalem posted:

The Queen has been getting some stick recently about using Queen's Consent for her benefit, but if things get really bad her people are going to salvage her reputation by revealing she wrote to Parliament in in the mid 2000s saying, and I quote,"Do not gently caress with Doctor Who, or I'll go you with a knife."

There were the stories of her requesting the new series DVDs when she went on vacation.

And then there was the story of her visiting the BBC in the 70s, and being introduced to the BBC Radiophonic Workshop, and asking about Doctor Who

Edward Mass
Sep 14, 2011

The Timeless Child is THE DOCTOR? Oh, for God's sake!


Every so often I remember that Queen Elizabeth II is still ruling England, and Iím amazed that itís been that way since the events of M*A*S*H.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


I mean, she was married to the 11th Doctor after all!

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001





"Fourth and final"--I'll believe that if he makes it to Unicron because he's been saying "this was going to be the end but there's so much more I need to do one more volume" since the first.

It's fine by me though, because if you haven't read them, his Welles books are great!



Davros1 posted:

But honestly, as pointed above, the real big hit was Michael Grade. Not only did he hate Colin Baker (because Colin had dated an ex of his), Michael Grade flat out hated science fiction, particularly Doctor Who. In fact, when he resumed his post as head of the BBC in 2004, he inquired if it was possible to stop production on the new series of Who, only to be told that it was too far along to stop.

I think he did at least give a backhanded "I suppose I was wrong, this new Doctor Who is successful but I was right to cancel the original" comment after it became an international sensation though.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible





Astroman posted:

"Fourth and final"--I'll believe that if he makes it to Unicron because he's been saying "this was going to be the end but there's so much more I need to do one more volume" since the first.

It's fine by me though, because if you haven't read them, his Welles books are great!


Has he covered Welles' collaborations with Manowar?

Gameko
Feb 23, 2006

The friend of all children!

Thanks for the historical perspective on doctors six and seven. As I understand it the sixth doctor did much better in the novelizations, and they swapped out his technicolor dreamcoat for a daper plum suit.

Who is the worst reboot doctor? I think they all bring something good to the role so its hard for me to condemn any one of them. Generally my displeasure with modern who is focused on the writing and series direction. The performances in who are almost always worthwhile...even the ones who chew the scenery.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012


I think it's Jodie, purely from having been let down by the material. I'm sure she has the chops to be a great Doctor but she just hasn't had the writing or directing she needs. All the rest have had at least one great season, and usually the kind of bad material that they can elevate or have fun with.

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!



Gameko posted:

Who is the worst reboot doctor? I think they all bring something good to the role so its hard for me to condemn any one of them. Generally my displeasure with modern who is focused on the writing and series direction. The performances in who are almost always worthwhile...even the ones who chew the scenery.

In terms of performance, I don't think there's been a bad Doctor in the revival. In terms of the quality of the stories, Whittaker has been done no favors whatsoever by Chibnall's awful writing, but Capaldi's first season was almost uniformly terrible as well (with a few exceptions like Mummy on the Orient Express) and Eccleston had himself some real stinkers, too ... but so did Tennant and Smith.

But, really, Whittaker's run has been marked by a lot of low lows and has never really risen above aggressive mediocrity, which is a shame, because she is absolutely giving it her all but getting no help at all from the scripts.

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006



Yeah Chibnall's era is very consistent, almost all the episodes are ok to pretty good, with a couple of terrible ones. And one really terrible one. There are no really good episodes with Whittaker.

I would prefer the RTD/Moffat style rollercoaster where you don't know if you are getting dogshit or a masterpiece, at least then there was the chance of a masterpiece. It's a shame because Jodie is a really good actor, and I like her as the Doctor, but the writing just isn't there.

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.


Maybe Michael Grade saw the infamous shirtless 70s Colin Baker photos, and that's what set him off?

Jodie Whittaker is really charming and gets the character, but Chibnall writing most of the episodes is really hurting the show. Ryan and Yas were barely characters, and there's just a lack of imagination overall. The 13th Doctor feels a little flat after how much range 12 got to cover - I'd like to see her angrier, or a bit darker at times. Maybe play her as a little more alien and ancient too - with 12 you could get the sense that yeah, this was the same character who went through all the good and bad the character has gone through with all these different faces. Or maybe have more moments of sadness or reflection. I like those bits where the Doctor reflects on being basically alone, with no constant but their TARDIS.

13 is basically the modern 6 - the actor is wonderfully cast, but being let down by the writing. More episodes like "It Takes You Away" or the first half of "Kerblam" would be good.

The 13th Doctor should be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine.

Basically it needs someone with the same kind of energy and willingness to delegate as Briggs does for Big Finish in charge. Chibnall has done some excellent stuff, but he's trying to do too much on Doctor Who.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.



Personally I think the series needs a Tom Baker-type; not necessarily "Bohemian eccentric alien", but rather (as Tom himself has said many times) an actor who is just playing an amped-up version of themselves, so they just glide naturally into the role without much effort.

I think Jodie could have been that type of Doctor. She's effortlessly charming and charismatic, and I think her Doctor would have worked well in that way, sort of just buzzing around whatever situation and charming everyone into doing what she wanted them to do (except for the villains of course). That applies to her costume, as well; I'm of the opinion that she looked far better wearing Capaldi's outfit than she does in her actual duds, and I truly think she could have pulled a variation of that sort of outfit off quite well (it doesn't help that she's basically wearing "flood" pants ).

It doesn't help much that Chibnall seems determined to A)leave his mark on DW history and B)write big stories with something to say, because he's clearly capable of only producing bland drivel.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


Chibnall seems to hate DW and is doing everything in his power to get the show canceled.



I refuse to believe anything else at this point.

Barry Foster
Dec 24, 2007

Brush your teeth.


Sydney Bottocks posted:

Personally I think the series needs a Tom Baker-type; not necessarily "Bohemian eccentric alien", but rather (as Tom himself has said many times) an actor who is just playing an amped-up version of themselves, so they just glide naturally into the role without much effort.

I felt like Matt Smith was this kind of Doctor, to be fair. He was obviously channeling Troughton but he seems like a genuinely weird dude irl and his Doctor seems a lot closer to himself than Tennant (who is much less kinetic than his portrayal) or Capaldi (incredibly nice and gracious person playing short tempered and awkward)

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.



Barry Foster posted:

I felt like Matt Smith was this kind of Doctor, to be fair. He was obviously channeling Troughton but he seems like a genuinely weird dude irl and his Doctor seems a lot closer to himself than Tennant (who is much less kinetic than his portrayal) or Capaldi (incredibly nice and gracious person playing short tempered and awkward)

I'd agree with that; it's probably a big part of the reason why the show got so popular during his run, because he could just effortlessly slide into the role.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


I donít think Whittakerís run has been helped by another Doctor showing up who is much more forceful and bolder personality wise, and people have latched onto way more. RuthDoc is surprisingly very popular, even among the moaners on FB posts.

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.


In technical terms, Capaldi was probably the best actor to play the character, and with Moffat having much better story arcs for 12 than the clunky ones 11 had, it worked better. Bill Potts was a great companion too, and Pearl Mackie knocked it out off the park.

Whittaker is hampered by having her Doctor be far too passive. Let her get angry! Or more assertive! Maybe having Graham as the only companion would have helped with the focus too - three companions feels spread too thin. I'm not saying she should "accidentally" be pushing people into acid baths every episode, but more reminders that this is still meant to be the same character who tricked Davros into blowing up his own planet would be nice.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


I disagree.


Acid baths for everyone.

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ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.





People keep referring to that. Did Doctor Who make the joker?

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