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I'm excited to see how wild this trainwreck gets! I was a member of the Baldur's Gate modding community, and a staff member on one of the largest modding sites, for years. Besides all the modding drama and horror stories I witnessed, I even made two mod NPCs who may turn up in this LP (without my permission for Sandrah's modder to do crossmod with them, for the record), one of whom I'm still rather proud of, and one not so much. This Sandrah Saga, though, happened after I parted ways with that community so this is going to be all-new to me. I'm familiar with the likes of Chloe, Saerileth, and the Imoen Romance, so I'm quite interested to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes on this one.
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Jan 18, 2021 20:19
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JohnKilltrane posted:I think my first question is: Why? Like, this is easily one of the most ambitious and comprehensive efforts I've ever seen for an NPC mod. How did that wind up paired with an NPC concept so... ill-conceived? I can't speak to Sandrah specifically, she was made after I parted ways with the Baldur's Gate modding community, but making mods for the Infinity Engine is a huge amount of work. It's not exactly a mod-friendly engine. You don't make a mod for these games without being very passionate about what you're doing and, well, what one person is passionate about can seem rather off to others. It's like any artistic community, really. If I had to guess, Sandrah's modder really, truly loves her and wants to share their artistic vision with the world. And sad to say, but it was my experience with the community that many of the most technically brilliant and talented modders were also the most broken human beings. 
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Jan 19, 2021 00:07
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Private Speech posted:I think it's been around for about 8 years or so? Which is to say OG games. Nah, the EE games came out almost ten years ago. I was very active in the Baldur's Gate modding community until that time, and Sandrah came after I parted ways. However... I do recognize this portrait. Either Sandrah's modder used an existing portrait that was around (plausible), or they'd just started work on Sandrah at that time.
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Jan 19, 2021 14:33
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I cannot stress enough how much modders love Imoen. At the time I left the modding community there were three separate mod NPCs who romance her, a mod for the PC to romance Imoen, and I'm sure there's more now. That 'Sandra's hammer can assimilate abilities from slain enemies' seems interesting to me. In a 'oh God how broken is this going to get?" way.
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Jan 19, 2021 17:14
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Mr. Lobe posted:would a girl writer write about priestly armor accentuating their curves? I'm inclined to think no but I am but a mere gay man and not actually a woman so idk Speaking from experience with the modding community? Yes. There's an infamous mod for Neverwinter Nights called A Dance With Rogues, and it was written by a woman. For reference, the one time anyone tried to LP that mod here, the moderators called nix on it because it was basically porn. On the other hand, the notorious-for-different-reasons Chloe mod was written by a man, and the notorious-for-still-other-reasons Saerileth mod was written by a husband and wife team. There's a lot of weird poo poo in the odd corners of the Infinity Engine modding community, and it's not always written by the kind of person you'd expect.
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Jan 19, 2021 17:57
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Private Speech posted:Also Sandrah saga itself is fairly light on explicit content, it's mostly kissing and implied stuff. The romantic encounters mod, eh, not so much. Oh no. I made two NPC mods. I am not looking forward to Sandrah wrapping them around her finger.
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Jan 19, 2021 19:45
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So, er, what the hell happened at the end there? Also time to play the mod NPC drinking game of whether the mod tries to assassinate Khalid's character in an effort to make the PC potentially hooking up with Jaheira in BG2 less skeevy. Walrus Pete posted:
Specifically a Japanese couple, as I recall, who made Saerileth to be a 'normal RPG love interest' and said they thought of the PC as only being 16 or 17 himself. Other fun Saerileth trivia: the lingerie portrait hidden in her files is actually the original, her artwork was stolen from some Korean wuxia MMO. They covered her up for her default portrait.
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Jan 20, 2021 13:40
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Fighting Trousers posted:Why did/do BG modders seem to almost universally hate Khalid? It's up there with their love of trauma and convoluted backstories. My understanding is this: Among the BG1 fanbase, Khalid was massively less popular than Jaheira. His stats aren't great, and he has a hidden lower courage rating in the game's much-obfuscated morale system making him more likely to panic and run away. He's serviceable, but sub-optimal. And he comes paired with one of the game's more popular and powerful characters. Khalid's timid personality also rubbed a lot of male gamers the wrong way, particularly when combined with how confident ("bossy") Jaheira is. This is also why Khalid was killed off in BG2, according to the developers. Informal polls found that the most popular player party in BG1 was the PC, Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc, and Dynaheir. Khalid and Dynaheir were much less popular than their paired characters, so when that group was made the PC's canon party, the less popular of the paired NPCs were killed off (this is also why Imoen defaults to being dual-classed to mage in BG2, the developers noticed that doing so was an incredibly popular choice in BG1). Then you have Jaheira's romance in BG2, and how quickly she moves on from Khalid's death rubbed (and still does) a lot of people the wrong way, unless you interpret it to be deliberately psychologically unhealthy from Jaheira, which is just as upsetting to different people in different ways. This is compounded by Jaheira's romance being the longest and most involved in BG2, giving many players the impression that she's meant to be the canon love interest. Thus, there's been something of a reaction to portray Khalid as an abusive shithead to justify how quickly Jaheira moves on and portray that relationship as not at all problematic. Plus the usual fan writing issue of taking a canon character's eccentricities and expanding on them until they dominate the whole character (see Minsc). The utterly lamentable official Baldur's Gate novelization got in on the action, too.
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Jan 20, 2021 14:52
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An edgy Githyanki super badass was not a quirk of Sandrah I was expecting, yet it seems entirely in-character for this mod. Hmmm.
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Jan 20, 2021 19:01
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Vichan posted:EDIT: Is there an easy way to see banters in a text file or something? Not to spoil myself but I'd like to know if I've exhausted a particular character's banter. Assuming EE modding works like pre-EE... If you can find the folder for Sandrah's dialogue (I have no idea how her mod is organized) you want to look for files with the .d, .b., or .j suffix. I'm at work so I can't check my own mod files to see the exact naming scheme of the files. IIRC, Valerie for example had her files named things like t2val.b (her banters with NPCs), t2val.j (her dialogue with the PC), etc. I think that's how the game required such files to work, but it's been almost a decade since I've done any modding work. There was a variety of modding utilities that let you explore the game files, like IE Explorer, but I don't know which if any you might have. Edit: I made this post in the Infinity Engine thread in games, while we're talking about the details of modding, about how much work it takes to create a mod NPC. When I was in high school, I made a mod NPC named Darian. Darian is a poorly-written rear end in a top hat who's decidedly Sue-ish, and I generally look back on this mod with regret (though he's got nothing on Sandrah imo). quote:However, as an example I'll use Darian, the mod NPC I made with full BG2 - SoA and ToB - content and, as the modding community defines things, full features. As NPC mods go, Darian is pretty bare bones for what was considered a fully featured mod NPC. Sandrah's mod includes dozens if not hundreds (this is almost certainly not an exaggeration) of times more work than this. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jan 20, 2021 |
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Jan 20, 2021 19:29
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Strawberry Pyramid posted:I imagine if you were foolish enough to install Sandrah, Saeralith, and Chloe at the same time, BG2 becomes a three-way race to see which of them can suck all the oxygen out of Faerun through sheer I'd also put the Imoen Romance up there in terms of sheer  . Plus the other mods by Saerileth's makers, Tsujatha and Yasraena.
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Jan 20, 2021 22:09
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Shugojin posted:I'm sorry With a male PC, Vichan will fortunately be immune to Chloe's charms. Unfortunately, that just means Chloe will redirect onto Imoen instead, joining Kelsey, Gavin, and God only knows who else at this point.
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Jan 20, 2021 22:45
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Out of bile fascination, I asked around about Sandrah's crossmod content with the mod NPCs I wrote, one of whom appears in BG1 - Valerie, and I got her full interactions with Sandrah. Funny thing is, there's not actually anything especially wrong with the broad strokes of their interactions. It's even in-character for Valerie to get overwhelmed and bowled over by someone like Sandrah. The problems are all in the details of how Roxanne wrote Valerie - her word choice, how she talks, what she's eager to talk about and what she's reticent about, specific details of her beliefs and backstory, etc. It's funny that I can't actually be outright angry, but I'm nevertheless incredibly annoyed by Roxanne not only doing it without my permission, she got Valerie so off. Only thing that makes me kind of mad is (minor spoilers if anyone cares) Sandrah piggybacking on Valerie's attempts (via her friendship track with Charname) to figure out what's going on with Charname - Charname can talk to her about their nightmares and powers, and she'll study and research that. She comes to completely the wrong conclusion, of course. Sandrah, naturally, has also been paying attention to Charname's dreams and powers and is so much smarter and more knowledgeable than Valerie and lectures her and of course figures out the truth but doesn't tell Valerie. I do not recommend adding Valerie to the party. From the looks of her interactions with Sandrah, they're keyed largely off Valerie's own friendship track with the PC, which is slow-burning and gated by plot events to allow Valerie to react to the ongoing story. They don't have many banters, and they'd be spread out over the majority of the game's plot. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jan 21, 2021 |
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Jan 21, 2021 14:29
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Every mod NPC I was aware of prior to Sandrah who had potential romances with the PC or with other NPCs was coded to only pursue the NPC romance if the PC doesn't qualify for their romance or the PC torpedoes the relationship. Sandrah casually sleeping with so many people while presumably still being a romance option for the PC is... a choice.
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Jan 21, 2021 19:00
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Strawberry Pyramid posted:And as has been bugging me for a while, I made peace with her usurping the narrative wholesale, but she does it while also blatantly script-reading. We aren't even near Nashkell and she's already given us the Branwen quest solution! Suffice it to say, she'll do this a lot and is pisses me off. Edited to remove a bunch of modder sperging. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jan 21, 2021 |
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Jan 21, 2021 19:20
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Vichan posted:Don't hold back on my account! As you wish! Valerie, the BG1 NPC mod I made (her BG2/ToB component is about 90% done but just... hasn't finished and probably will never) has a lengthy friendship track gated by plot progress in BG1, with shades of flirtation if you meet her requirements (what would have been her requirements for her actual romance in BG2). I included the plot gating as a way to let Valerie react to the ongoing story as it evolves, and one of the things that happens is that she'll notice the restless nightmares that the PC has. She'll ask the PC about them, and if you agree - you don't have to, this bit is entirely optional - the PC will explain their nightmares and strange new powers to Valerie. Being a Cowled Wizard and studious sort, Valerie does some research off-camera in her own time and eventually tells the PC what she thinks is going on with them. She is, of course, completely wrong. She makes a pretty reasonable guess from the facts available to her, but the truth never occurs to her as a possibility because why would it? Sandrah, however, jumps in after this talk to reveal that she also paid careful attention to the PC's nightmares and strange powers, did research, and unlike Valerie she's figured out the truth. She doesn't say what the truth is, naturally, but lectures Valerie about what's 'blatantly obvious' (i.e. Sandrah read the game's script and her writer makes assumptions about things that I don't). Valerie also falls in love with Sandrah and sleeps with her, but that's par for the course for Sandrah (and also, I'm sad to say, in-character - Valerie absolutely would get run over by a beautiful, smart, charismatic woman who knows a lot about magic and is comfortable in her own skin). And happens after Sandrah lectures Valerie about her tendency to drink when she feels anxious and stressed. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jan 21, 2021 |
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Jan 21, 2021 23:13
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:We just need to keep feeding the Beast with party members so it stays the hell away from us. Honestly? Sandrah gives me predatory vibes. A feeling like she's very deliberately exploiting her physical beauty and overwhelming presence to prey on anyone even vaguely susceptible for her own use even if it's always nominally consensual. I don't think that's what Roxanne intends by any means, but that's the feeling I'm getting.
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Jan 22, 2021 03:51
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Ah, Gavin. An innocuous enough NPC on the surface, and if you don't pry any deeper he'll remain just that. But there's some real  content beneath the surface if you care to go looking, and he's the first NPC we've met who will boink Imoen in BG2.To quote the author, happy people and healthy relationships are boring and unrealistic, and Gavin is not only her tabletop DnD character she'd played for twenty years, he's the husband she wishes she had. If I sound prejudiced against Gavin, it's probably because when I approached his modder about crossmod content with Valerie she went on a homophobic rant about gay people not existing in the Forgotten Realms and that Valerie would be considered a sexual deviant. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 14:14
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Fighting Trousers posted:(Out of curiosity , Cythereal, since you've said you'll probably never complete Valerie's BGII content: How do you think she and Kelsey would get along, since he's terrified of the Cowled Wizards? All of Valerie's BG2 and ToB stuff is written and the dialogue is coded, what's not finished is mostly technical stuff about getting her to appear in-game and interact properly. Also, she'd without question pick a fight with almost every single one of the EE NPCs, which is another reason I left the modding community when the Enhanced Editions came out. She'd probably shrug at Kelsey, as far as she's concerned the Cowled Wizards are doing their job and it's a necessary job (in particular, she in her ignorance will tell Charname that Imoen is perfectly safe and fine at Spellhold). She... gets rather thoroughly disabused of this view throughout BG2 and winds up effectively kicked out of the organization by ToB and never returns. Beyond that she probably wouldn't think of Kelsey much at all, they may be sorcerers but their backgrounds, how they think of their abilities, and how they approach magic are completely different. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 16:15
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Servetus posted:Now what issue would Valerie have with Wilson? I have no idea who that is. Neera, incidentally, is one of the things that pissed me off about the Enhanced Editions. Fluff-wise, she's wrong. Wild magic, in the Forgotten Realms in 2E or 3E, is not something you're born with. Wild magic is something that has to be very specifically sought after, and what it does is rip apart the fabric of the Weave - the underlying structure of magic - to channel for more power, at the cost of safety and, well, damaging the raw fabric of magic. Wild magic was extremely rare and forbidden in the Realms until the Time of Troubles, when Mystra's death shattered the Weave across much of the Realms, creating zones of wild magic and dead magic where the Weave is coming apart at the seams or completely gone. Wild mages became more common after the Time of Troubles as some mages sought to harness that power, even though it further damages the Weave. If you're a wild mage, it is not an accident and it is not something that's just a part of you. You are deliberately ripping apart the raw fabric of magic in the cosmos for power. It's a divine commandment from many good-aligned churches, including Mystra and Torm, to oppose wild mages and work to heal the wild magic and dead magic zones. Neera's writers seem to have confused wild magic with sorcery, and I think 4E or 5E Realms finally included a wild sorcerer class variant.
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Jan 22, 2021 16:48
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Rosemont posted:On another note, anybody have NPC mods that they'd recommend? I've played the BG games a lot but never used a single mod for them. Finch, already seen here, is a pretty good one. I can't laugh at her because I've been a librarian for most of my professional career in real life and Finch is based on stereotypes of librarians, but she's fun enough and harmless. For Baldur's Gate 2, I'm fond of Sarah if you want a ranger who isn't Valygar or Minsc. She's not a complicated or especially deep character, but I find her a likeable and pleasant character. JohnKilltrane posted:Oh also what's the issue with Chloe? I know literally nothing about her mod other than that it's normally mentioned in the same breath as Saerileth. You know Sandrah? Imagine if she was marginally less talkative and prone to overriding the plot (and God help me that's something I'm typing) and was written by a guy with lesbian and samurai fetishes. Good Lord, Sandrah's on par with Chloe if not worse and we're only at Beregost.
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Jan 22, 2021 19:09
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Vichan posted:Christ, that loving sucks. Is homophobia even a thing in the Forgotten Realms? Officially, no. It was something that was just never talked about in the actual Realms splat books, but a lot of the officially licensed novels had gay people because, well, Ed Greenwood is like that. Gavin has the slight excuse in that he's a priest of Lathander, the god of marriage, human fertility, childbirth, and children among other things, so that probably colors his outlook. But in-setting turning that into homophobia would be rather odd. Valerie's not terribly open about it, but that's more because she's just personally shy and unsure of herself when it comes to personal relationships. Which is one of the things I meant about Valerie sounding subtly off and wrong when Roxanne writes her - Valerie never at any point goes "Yo I'm a lesbian." She doesn't make a specific effort to hide it, and some NPCs pick up on it, but she would never in a million years go "Yo you're hot and smart and nice, you dtf with another woman y/n?" This is also the stance that most gay/bi NPC mods take. They generally don't advertise it but don't hide it, and assume that Faerun is chill with it. It's just every once in a while you run into a homophobic modder, or on the other extreme the likes of Chloe. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 22:26
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I'm tempted to start keeping a doom clock of the implied-to-explicit sex scenes this mod has, because it amuses me in a "What the hell is wrong with this person?" kind of way. As for Valerie, I've talked about her in this thread a fair amount, but now that she's actually shown up I should probably note that I wrote her originally as, primarily, a creative writing exercise. There'd been a survey of the NPC and romance mods available in the community at the time, and it was noted that f/f romance options were by far the rarest - and that there were none at all in BG1. I'd been contemplating doing a BG1 NPC mod, so that survey lead me to try writing an NPC mod for the trilogy that would be a f/f romance option that could accompany you through the whole series, and specifically have the extra condition that it be a happy, pleasant character arc without any grimdark story aspects or horrible drama as tends to plague gay characters (especially gay women) in the media. Enter Valerie, about whom the worst you can say is that she has self-esteem issues centered on being a sorceress from a nation that hates magic, she has a troubled relationship with her family, and she's prone to drinking when she feels anxious or stressed. A pity that her BG2 and ToB component will probably never be finished despite being about 90% done, but I think that ship has sailed. At least I'm still reasonably proud of my writing with Valerie. Unlike the other mod NPC I made, who we may see in BG2. Thankfully I've been informed that Sandrah apparently does not have any crossmod content with him...
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Jan 23, 2021 14:24
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So, with this LP focusing on mods, I thought I'd show off some of the behind the scenes details about how mods work and what they look like in code (Vichan, feel free to tell me if this isn't welcome). Take Valerie, for example, what does that initial dialogue box of hers actually look like from a modder's end? IF ~NumTimesTalkedTo(0) AND T2ValMinesClear(0)~ T2ValIntro SAY ~Another group of adventurers coming to investigate the mines, I hope? I'm glad someone has worked up the nerve to do something.~ ++ ~What do you know of the troubles in the mines?~ + T2ValTrouble ++ ~You have an Amnish accent. Are you part of the garrison force?~ + T2ValGarrison ++ ~Why isn't the garrison doing anything?~ + T2ValDoing ++ ~You wear a mage's robes. Do you have any magic items for sale?~ + T2ValSale ++ ~Sorry, but I have to go.~ + T2ValBye END We'll start with the two conditionals there. Most Infinity Engine dialogue involves if/then scripting to determine what dialogue fires. In this case, the NumTimesTalkedTo(0) conditional means that this dialogue only fires if you've never talked to her before. T2ValMinesClear(0) is a variable I added specifically for the Valerie mod to track whether or not you've cleared the Nashkel mines. So with the AND command in the IF script, this dialogue only fires if you've never talked to Valerie before and you haven't cleared the mines. T2ValIntro is the name of this script block. SAY is the script command to have the NPC talk, and the ~ marks are the bounds of the dialogue string. The ++ lines are a scripting shortcut for what would fully be IF ~~ THEN REPLY. 'IF ~~' means there are no conditions for whatever comes next, and THEN REPLY means that this is one of the PC's dialogue options. After the dialogue string, the + [name] commands the dialogue to go to the next script block. Some mods just use numbers for script blocks like this, including Sandrah, but I prefer a more descriptive term - it helps me keep the dialogue organized. END marks the end of this script block. But, for example, what if you cleared the mines without ever talking to Valerie, and only talked to her afterwards? IF ~NumTimesTalkedTo(0) AND T2ValMinesClear(1)~ T2ValCIntro SAY ~So you're the one responsible for clearing out the mines? Well done. The Cowled Wizards extend their thanks.~ ++ ~Cowled Wizards? What are they?~ + T2ValCCowled ++ ~You have an Amnish accent. Are you part of the garrison force?~ + T2ValCGarrison ++ ~Why hasn't the garrison been doing anything?~ + T2ValCDoing ++ ~You wear a mage's robes. Do you have any magic items for sale?~ + T2ValCSale ++ ~Sorry, but I have to go.~ + T2ValBye END Mostly the same, but a different line from Valerie reflecting that you've already cleared out the mines - and gives you a new dialogue option to ask her about the Cowled Wizards now that she's mentioned them, and the names of the other script blocks are different because they lead to new dialogue all reflecting this change. The Enhanced Editions added a few new shortcuts to make coding a little bit easier, but this kind of stuff right here is the fundamental structure of how dialogue in this game is written and coded.
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Jan 23, 2021 18:29
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Fighting Trousers posted:Somehow, the thing that irritates me the most is how she's even got Kivan (Mr. "VENGANCE FOR MY DEAD WIFE") mooning over her. It's gross. So for reference, and still using Valerie as an example, here's what a banter looks like in this game's code. CHAIN IF ~CombatCounter(0) InParty("T2Val") InParty("kivan") See("T2Val") !See ([ENEMY]) !StateCheck("kivan",CD_STATE_NOTVALID) !StateCheck("T2Val",CD_STATE_NOTVALID) Global("T2ValKiTalk1","GLOBAL",0)~ THEN BT2VAL T2ValKiTalk1 ~Kivan, I'm sorry about your Deheriana. If there's anything I can do to help...~ DO ~SetGlobal("T2ValKiTalk1","GLOBAL",1)~ == %KIVAN_BANTER% ~You can help by doing your job in battle and remaining silent outside of it.~ == BT2Val ~Sorry. I only wanted to help.~ == %KIVAN_BANTER% ~I do not want or need your help, sorceress. Leave me be.~ END The IF/THEN conditionals are quite a bit more involved! This is the standard set of conditionals used by most modders for banters. "CombatCounter(0)" means that the party has to be out of combat. InParty("T2Val") means that Valerie has to be in the party - every mod NPC has their own unique ID (or should...) InParty("kivan") means Kivan has to be in the party, most of the Bioware cast's IDs are just their names. See("T2Val") means that Valerie has to be in visual range of the PC - and I made a mistake with this banter's coding by not including "See("kivan")" because this could fire if Kivan is on another map! And yes, the parenthesis and quotation marks are important in the coding. !StateCheck("kivan",CD_STATE_NOTVALID) is another scripting shortcut for checking that Kivan isn't afflicted by a host of conditions (like death) that would make a banter... not make much sense. Valerie gets the same check. Global("T2ValKiTalk1","GLOBAL",0) checks that this banter hasn't fired before. You can see at the end of Valerie's first dialogue string that there's scripting to set the T2ValKiTalk1 global variable to 1, thereby making this banter impossible to fire again because it will fail this condition of the IF/THEN script when the game determines that it's time for a banter. After the conclusion of the IF/THEN conditionals, BT2Val means it calls on Valerie to speak the first line, and then references the rest from there. The == code just means 'no conditionals, play the dialogue line for the relevant character' and '%KIVAN_BANTER%' is more scripting shortcuts to save time coding this. Sandrah is not coded like this. She has a different system for scripting and coding her banters, one which I suspect makes it much easier to write and script enormous amounts of dialogue versus the traditional system. That would make a lot of sense for the scope of Sandrah's dialogue. On the other hand, Sandrah's coding system makes it very difficult to tell exactly where any given dialogue begins or ends, whereas more normal mods like Valerie show each banter and interaction very discretely and separately - for me, at least, it makes them much easier to write, organize, and refer to. I'm also wondering if this is part of why Sandrah spams her interactions so much and why Vichan's mentioned that normal banter commands don't seem to impact Sandrah. I'm no modding wiz-kid, but I suspect that Sandrah's dialogue genuinely isn't scripted as banters and whatnot like normal mods do. Normal modding procedure basically copies how the Bioware characters work in the base game, just with some tweaking here and there. Sandrah, I suspect, is doing her own thing when it comes to scripting. If she is, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm genuinely impressed with the technical skill, ability, and hard work that went into Sandrah! Roxanne is really talented at this side of things! Just a shame that all that talent is going into... this.
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Jan 23, 2021 21:25
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Drawing explicit comparisons between Sandrah and Midnight is setting off alarm bells in my brain. It's hard to notice because so many are already wailing, but this is a new one. Be on the lookout for comparisons between the PC and Kelemvor. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Jan 24, 2021 |
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Jan 24, 2021 14:06
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...I think I know where this is going. Sandrah's mother is Mystra, isn't it.
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Jan 24, 2021 15:32
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Vichan posted:I have to say I'm pretty impressed by the BG1NPC project. Imoen's banters are a bit iffy and Kivan is a bit too 'I'm 14 and this is deep' but Edwin and Branwen have been an absolute delight.  Branwen's one of the highlights of the BG1 NPC Project for me, too. Compared to the other romance options in the mod, she's refreshingly straightforward and uncomplicated. Edwin, I think is helped by him working out much better as a fundamentally comedic character rather than trying to take his background and personality actually seriously. I think some mods go too far with it, and IIRC the Edwin Romance mod for BG2 lets you turn him outright good, but I think he works well enough. The uneven quality of the BG1 NPC Project's writing, incidentally, stems in large part because it was written by about a dozen different people. Each NPC was the responsibility of one modder, and some modders had more than one NPC. I know the Xan and Ajantis romances were written by the same people who made the relevant NPC-and-romance mods for BG2, but I don't remember the others.
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Jan 24, 2021 18:52
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Fighting Trousers posted:*shudder* I have never understood the appeal he has to a certain subset of BG fangirls. "I can fix him!" I think it's also because he's not threatening, for lack of a better term. He's shy, quiet, and lets you make the first move. He's content to be in your shadow and follow your lead, which can't be said for most love interests for women in games. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jan 24, 2021 |
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Jan 24, 2021 19:37
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ALL SHALL LOVE ME AND DESPAIR!
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Jan 24, 2021 23:31
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I should probably also repost this: For a long time I was a staff member at one of the main Baldur's Gate modding sites and was friendly with the staff of one of the other major sites, and we between the two sites developed an unofficial set of criteria for shooting down mod NPC ideas at a glance even before we started really looking at the character: 1. No rape, of or by the NPC. 2. No underage characters. 2a. For God's sake no romance with underage characters. 3. No incest. 4. No Bhaalspawn. 4a. No other demigods. 5. No stats above natural limits for the race. Bioware characters are grandfathered in. 6. No forcing dialogue options or actions for the player (do-this-or-I-leave is fine, as long as you have the option to say no, bye). 7. No killing Bioware NPCs. 8. No unique class/kit. 9. No spoiling plot events (i.e. knowing that Yoshimo is working for Irenicus or that Imoen is a Bhaalspawn). 10. No personal items stronger than anything the player can reasonably obtain (nothing as powerful as the ring of gaxx or carsomyr, for example, much less anything stronger). Sandrah's not quite going to pull the complete hat trick because she's not underage, but the rest...
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Jan 25, 2021 01:57
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Sandrah Saga: Lingering long at her rose nipples
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Jan 25, 2021 14:30
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I think I've put a finger on part of why Sandrah Saga bugs me from artistic standpoint as a writer (by such standards as they are, I make no claims to being a great writer). I take the standpoint that, particularly in this particular context of NPC mods, that when you write dialogue, that dialogue should serve a purpose. Generally, either to be funny or to tell you something about the character(s). I also generally enjoy it when RPGs of the sort with romances where party members and other major characters develop their own relationships. I think it helps show the world as being more than just the PC and their amazing dick/vagina and magnetic personality. One of the two mod NPCs I made even has a romance with another NPC in Throne of Bhaal, in the event that the PC torpedoes or is ineligible for a romance with either character involved, and I wrote it with the principle that you're only seeing bits of their evolving relationship, the parts that happen to be in earshot of the PC. I also wrote it as a way to show both characters maturing and growing past their childish behavior and unrealistic expectations and beliefs they had in Shadows of Amn. Valerie never does develop a romantic relationship with anyone but potentially the PC - Dynaheir politely turns her down, Aerie (in her written but unreleased BG2 content) never picks up on her hints, and her mildly flirtatious relationship with Imoen, uh, does not last into BG2. I use these examples, because none of Sandrah's whoring around tells you anything about Sandrah or her harem. She acts like a different person to everyone, beyond an underlying attitude of arrogance, and her personality is just a vague collection of superlatives. No one even seems to notice that Sandrah's sleeping with half the Sword Coast, she just turns everyone around her into a simpering fanboy/girl all studiously ignorant of each other. Sandrah talks a lot, but says very little. Edit: For reference, the usual rule of thumb with mod NPCs and banters is 2-3 banters with each character. This is how the Bioware bunch banter with each other in BG2, and it was inherited by the modding community. It works in part because most characters just don't have that much interesting to say to one another. Contrast Sandrah.
Cythereal fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2021 16:32
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I'm just saying, if a magic-resistant STI ever spreads across Faerun, I think we found Patient Zero. Seriously, what does this add to her character?! What does any of this add to her character?! Why are you writing this?!?!?!
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Jan 25, 2021 19:33
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By popular demand posted:some writers just can't handle a character who likes sex but is cool about it so we get the hit-on-anything-theoretically-capable-of-consent. And of course everything does consent because she's Just That Hot, even characters you might think are straight women, gay men, or just not interested. I mean, the NPC Project makes Coran a horndog but I don't think anyone besides Safana and potentially Charname reciprocate. Safana likewise, though I don't think Charname can even go for it. Or Edwin, whose horniness in both the base games and the NPC Project is mostly played for laughs. I'm at least taking solace that Sandrah's writing is very much from the modder reading the script. At least when it comes to mod content. She never figures out Valerie's big thing she's not quite hiding, even though a lot of clues are there in BG1, because she only reveals it in her unreleased BG2 content. I have a sneaking suspicion that if I had released it, Sandrah would of course know and either reveal it on the spot or tease her about how she knows but isn't saying. In a way, I think I loathe Sandrah even more than the likes of Saerileth. Saerileth is at least a very specific character and a very specific story the modders want to tell, and she's not half as intrusive on the plot (and good Lord Almighty is that damning with faint praise). I seriously cannot figure out Sandrah's character or what her story is supposed to be beyond a vague 'she's the bestest person ever!' fart into the void.
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Jan 25, 2021 19:48
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Midnight Voyager posted:I'm not sure if I'm happy that Minsc is safe now or in pain because this is drawing out the "Does Sandrah gently caress a guy who I am not convinced is capable of proper consent?" cliffhanger. BG1 and BG2 Minsc are very different characters. As much as BG2 Minsc amused me, I don't care for the 'is literally mentally a child' interpretation of the character. Versus a guy who's just loud, enthusiastic, and likes his hamster.
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Jan 26, 2021 00:19
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I've heard from goons that Isra is actually a pretty good NPC mod, but I've never played with her myself. This LP is making me kind of want to buy EE and get back into the modding scene so I can add something better than this drivel. I'm not absolutely certain yet that Sandrah surpasses my personal standard for the nadir of the modding community (Imoen Romance, I downloaded and read through that mod in NearInfinity once out of curiosity and Jesus loving Christ), but at this point I wouldn't be surprised. Even Chloe is less intrusive and less over the top about her sexuality. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jan 26, 2021 |
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Jan 26, 2021 15:48
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Well... being a living lens flare is fitting enough for who's apparently a cleric of Lathander, I suppose. (seriously what is up with that portrait?)
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Jan 26, 2021 17:15
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Vichan posted:That's motivation to continue if ever there was Hah, not likely to actually happen. I don't own the EE games and it's been more than ten years since I've done any actual modding work. For all that most of Valerie BG2 is done, for example, what's left is mostly scripting related stuff. I'm not on speaking terms with the people who used to help me with modding anymore, either. An idle fancy, probably. I'm mostly just here for the trainwreck that you've been doing a great job of showing off. Disaster tourism.
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Jan 26, 2021 17:21
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JamMasterJim posted:Heya, It's me, Imoen. Sticking with you throgh thick and thin. Unless you disagree with new bestie, loser. And not the last mod that will do this, either! Sandrah really is very thin-skinned. This modder does not seem to take well to criticism of her or her magnum opus.
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Jan 27, 2021 13:16
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