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shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Vindolanda posted:

Iíd like to know what people thought I meant, because thatís what I meant.

Extra stick magazine of .22 blanks sticking out of the gas block came to mind.

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PookBear
Nov 1, 2008


Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody's going to die.


Delayed blowback and direct impingement

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

Is a mult-chamber, revolving cylinder in the receiver an option?

Vindolanda
Feb 13, 2012

It's just like him too, y'know?


tarlibone posted:

Is a mult-chamber, revolving cylinder in the receiver an option?

Could another gun be held by someone downrange who fires at exactly the right moment to hit the bolt handle and drive it backwards?

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Ok finally going to dig through the powder lists this evening.

Part of me is wondering if I should shoot for the 40ksi or a 45~50ksi pressure range? (9x39 CIP pressure is 50ksi)

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Okay.. so going off the original printout that has the 40ksi cap.

Sorted anything that was under 25ksi for a max pressure.
(fine for bolt action but trying to do groundwork for AK cycling)

Sorted out burn %'s under 90%

Sorted out fill %'s under 55%

This leaves about 25 charges/powders left. A good chunk of them I've only heard of and never actually seen. (Keep in mind, I have an FFL specifically to load/sell moon ammo too)

Then started looking at Muzzle PSI. Ideally the lower the better. 4 out of the list were under 1000psi and a few right at that ~1ksi mark.




Out of those the Accurate 1250 and N330 probably will be thrown into the potential starting loads.


I'm curious how much the list will change if it's done with at 50ksi peak pressure.

There was some email discussion where I was a little confused in the list.
One of the powder series I was originally looking at was the AA 2, 5, 7, 9, 11fs. However only 2 and 11fs showed up as being "safe" loads.

2 is way too fast burning and basically was acting like a shotshell load. (near instant burn and no continued powder burning down the barrel)
11fs was on the other end. It had some hilariously low powder burn % and probably would have thrown a gigantic fireball as more than half the powder burns outside the barrel.

5, 7 and 9 were there but only as an "under 25% fill" which as a general concept is bad. your burn rates get very inconsistent with nearly any powder at those levels. One example of this is how H110 "likes" to be at full charges it starts burning inconsistently at ~ 60% fill charges. (that's just a estimate off experience)

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Adjacent note to figuring out load data.


We decided that we're going to make forming dies for these too.

Yes we're crazy.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



shalafi4 posted:

Adjacent note to figuring out load data.


We decided that we're going to make forming dies for these too.

Yes we're crazy.

My kinda crazy.

Please document as much of that as youíre comfortable putting online. Sounds neat as gently caress.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Cyrano4747 posted:

My kinda crazy.

Please document as much of that as youíre comfortable putting online. Sounds neat as gently caress.

I'm fine with putting nearly all of it online. It's more remembering to document it along the way :P


What we're looking at potentially making right now.

~Half jacket spitzer rounds (possibly out of .380 brass)

Full jacketed rounds (possibly out of .223 brass)

*IF* those go well. possible a steel cored variant.

We've done most of the research into legalities, just need to get in writing confirmation due to already having an 06FFL ( better to ask permission than forgiveness in this case)

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Okay this is going to be a little scatterbrained since my notebook is at home.

So we've got 2 main goals here.

Design/make dies to make either gas checked or half jacket bullets.

Design/make dies to make close to FMJ bullets (probably open tip)


Lets look at what we'd need to do the forming part.

Core seating/ initial pointing die.:
If we go for a jacketed bullet it'll be a core seating die. (probably a .380 or 9mm for a half jacket. .223 for a full jacket)
This does pretty much exactly what it sounds like. seats the core into the jacket to take any air bubbles out.
I need to do some research into if you can combine this with the die that starts to form the initial point (usually spitzer type bullets are done in 2 steps)

Point forming die:
Does exactly what the name says. forms the point. of a bullet.


Backing up from those we also need cores and jackets.

So we also need

Core sizing die :
either cast cores or lead wire and the die squishes it to an exact size with bleed hole(s) to extrude off excess lead, leaving a really consistent core weight

Jacket forming die

Since we're most likely using fired cases as our jackets. It'll most likely be a push through sizing die. (picture a beefy version of a lee bullet sizing die) possibly 2 depending on how much we need to undersize them.
We can get away with it in a normal reloading press because we'll be fully annealing them prior to sizing (and possibly after sizing as well)

Also will need to form out any significant taper on the cases. (might not be needed but listing anyway)

Vindolanda
Feb 13, 2012

It's just like him too, y'know?


Why form out the case taper? Embrace it! Youíre already reaming a chamber - go whole hog with 9x39 Lebel.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Vindolanda posted:

Why form out the case taper? Embrace it! Youíre already reaming a chamber - go whole hog with 9x39 Lebel.

It's for the bullets

If there's too much case taper you can run into some weird trapped air/off balance bullets.

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno


Forming bullet jackets from fired cases is so cool, I am excited to see what you come up with

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

*Shamelessly stolen from Corbin's website*

Corbin's is one of the major bullet swaging die makers in the US


Here's a visual cutaway of roughly what I laid out.





The eventual goal will be to get a set like this.

This will do rebated boattail jacketed bullets. These would be with copper/brass jackets instead of fired cases. Or we switch to a hydraulic press

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



So are you guys planning on selling the ammo once your'e all set up?

Because I get projectiles for this not being readily available but this is a holy fuckton of effort for just ginning up some fun poo poo for yourself.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Cyrano4747 posted:

So are you guys planning on selling the ammo once your'e all set up?

Because I get projectiles for this not being readily available but this is a holy fuckton of effort for just ginning up some fun poo poo for yourself.

Both ammo and components once it all settles out.


The only weird thing is we'd have to get a different set of dies if we go to sell loaded ammo.

The reamers we had made what 6? years ago were made off of the original Russian military spec.


Since then CIP has standardized 9x39 in 2018 and it's *just* different enough to be a PITA.

The case body has a minutely different taper and the shoulder angle is a little more steep on the military ones. One of the tests I'm going to do is see how cross compatible they are once I have actual fired cases.

shalafi4 fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Mar 16, 2021

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



How'd they end up with a weird standardization? Bad info on the specs or something?

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Cyrano4747 posted:

How'd they end up with a weird standardization? Bad info on the specs or something?

100% speculation.

With how the tapers fall. Military rounds will *JUST* not chamber in CIP chambered arms.

Sanity check to keep AP ammo out of civilian hands?

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Overall view





Shoulder view




The military one is the translucent Blue.

(both are assuming the bases are in the same position and centered down the axis

that gap is ~0.01" at the widest point of the shoulder

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



shalafi4 posted:

100% speculation.

With how the tapers fall. Military rounds will *JUST* not chamber in CIP chambered arms.

Sanity check to keep AP ammo out of civilian hands?

Eh, I doubt that. That's usually more of a state-level thing and is usually just solved by banning AP ammo or banning "military" calibers entirely.

I mean, it's not impossible, but usually when standards orgs tweak poo poo like that there's some kind of safety reason. Kind of like how SAAMI toned down 8mm Mauser because they were afraid of people blowing up Gew88s made for the old Patrone 88 (which can safely* fire 150gr WW1 loaded 8mm S Patrone) with the WW2-era 197gr sS Patrone.

How does the shoulder angle compare to x39? Because just eyeballing it the profile of the CIP one looks more x39-ish than the military one. I'm wondering if someone didn't take the wrong dimension.

edit: *safely-ish. Anyone who has a Gew88 should slug their bore to figure out what, exactly, they're holding.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Cyrano4747 posted:


How does the shoulder angle compare to x39? Because just eyeballing it the profile of the CIP one looks more x39-ish than the military one. I'm wondering if someone didn't take the wrong dimension.


7.62x39 is ~32į

CIP 9x39 is ~34į

military 9x39 is ~35.5į


That was a quick and dirty cad model. That zoomed in one exaggerates that difference quite a bit.



Cyrano4747 posted:

Eh, I doubt that. That's usually more of a state-level thing and is usually just solved by banning AP ammo or banning "military" calibers entirely.

I mean, it's not impossible, but usually when standards orgs tweak poo poo like that there's some kind of safety reason. Kind of like how SAAMI toned down 8mm Mauser because they were afraid of people blowing up Gew88s made for the old Patrone 88 (which can safely* fire 150gr WW1 loaded 8mm S Patrone) with the WW2-era 197gr sS Patrone.

It's also Russia? Easy change so commercial rifles/smoothbores in 9x39 can't use any military ammo if someone got their paws on it. But the military can still use civilian rounds.

Difference is slight enough that any of the Ackley round have a bigger difference. But def enough to stop it going the other way.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



shalafi4 posted:


It's also Russia? Easy change so commercial rifles/smoothbores in 9x39 can't use any military ammo if someone got their paws on it. But the military can still use civilian rounds.

Difference is slight enough that any of the Ackley round have a bigger difference. But def enough to stop it going the other way.

Sure, but CIP isn't Russian, it's headquartered in Brussels. It just feels like the sort of thing that is due more to an oversight or bad info than them bending to Russian demands that they alter their standard.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

So on top of powders being unobtanium. The main one I've been looking for isn't in production anymore.

Accurate solo 1250 apparently went out of production ~5 years ago.


Fortunately the 1000 or nitro 100 will work.

Time for the hunt to continue.

shalafi4 fucked around with this message at 19:21 on May 24, 2021

Wa11y
Jul 23, 2002

Did I say "cookies?" I meant, "Fire in your face!"

What specific powders are you looking for?

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Wa11y posted:

What specific powders are you looking for?

Originally

Accurate solo 1250 and either N320 or N330


Went back through the quickload sheets and found that the Accurate 1000 and (especially) the nitro 100 powders are REALLY close to the 1250.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Looking for some input from some of the other long term reloaders of weirder stuff. (wildcats especially)

Thoughts on going through and doing all the load development on a powder you've got a feeling won't be around long term.


Stumbled across Accurate TCM at a local store and started looking into it.

It's not an "ideal" powder off of the QL data for the 9x39 but it was in the very last round of sorting.

It's designed for .22 TCM and has published load data for 357 mag, 41 mag and high pressure 45 colt currently.

I've been under a rock and not sure how much traction the 22TCM has.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Youíre not going to get data thatís directly applicable to other powders, but youíll still get experience with the cartridge and can start to build comparisons to other cartridges using that powder which can help you find your feet more quickly in the future.

One of those things where I donít think itís wasted effort but itís also probably suboptimal and not something Iíd go out of my way to do normally. Then again, powderpocalypse etc.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Cyrano4747 posted:

Youíre not going to get data thatís directly applicable to other powders, but youíll still get experience with the cartridge and can start to build comparisons to other cartridges using that powder which can help you find your feet more quickly in the future.

One of those things where I donít think itís wasted effort but itís also probably suboptimal and not something Iíd go out of my way to do normally. Then again, powderpocalypse etc.

Yea I know it won't be directly applicable but that's the whole fun with what are essentially wildcats


It might be a suboptimal powder but not by much at all. It's in the realm of "do I go with a slightly faster or slower powder in the reloading book for a given bullet" range.

Plus everything is still on paper tinkering right now so it may be a complete dead end once the loads start.



Bigger thing I'm concerned with is *assuming* it works fairly well. It's a powder specifically designed for a cartridge that may or may not get widespread adoption. Is it going to be around in say 5 years?

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar



Useable powder has been acquired!!!

Picked up a pound of Accurate TCM.

While not optimal for making a subsonic version of 9x39 it's well within the "2nd choice" category. For a supersonic load it is pretty much tailor made for cartridge/bullet weights around where I'm loading at.


Now that we have powder lets take a look at the Quickload data that Wa11y gave me. There's two listed because I'm trying to (theoretically) balance a load between a bolt action and what will eventually be an AK

18 in barrel 50ksi peak tunes for 1050 fps

Accurate TCM

% case volume 46.4
Grains 9
Velocity 1050
% powder burn 98.5
Chamber PSI 18459
Muzzle PSI 1513


8in barrel 50ksi peak tuned for 1050fps

Accurate TCM
% of case volume 56.9
Grains 11.1
Velocity 1050
% powder burn 98.4
Chamber PSI 27372
Muzzle PSI 4834


So what can we glean from that.

Powder is probably a little on the slow side since we're under the ~75% fill level.
Now there isn't any real scientific assignment to that %. However I've noticed with *most* of the rifle loads I've done they tend to be the most consistent around that 70~80% mark. (insert handwaving here)

It would probably be a good powder for the AK.
the ~8in barrel is thrown in there for rough gas port positioning from the bolt face. If we're above that ~2500 psi mark *usually* gas systems will function.

We're also WELL in our safety margin pressure wise. So it's there's a very large safety margin if I screw something up.


Drawbacks.

Even with the lighter 18" load the muzzle pressure is still fairly high. I'm guessing this is because of the powder being double base and *relatively* slow for the load. They tend to expand much farther than single base powders in light loads.


Any input from other wildcatter's/ experienced reloaders is welcome. And as always if anyone has questions please feel free to ask. Breaking this stuff down its base concepts often will help find logic errors.


Time to get off my butt and get an actual batch of cases formed/ trimmed to size.

Wa11y
Jul 23, 2002

Did I say "cookies?" I meant, "Fire in your face!"

Wa11y posted:

Edit: Getting all my QL data in one place for ease of finding it again later.

Glad I did that!

According to Quickload, in an 18" barrel, with 9 grains of Accurate TCM, you'll be getting 1047FPS at the muzzle with 98.44% burn. 95% burn rate will be achieved around 8.8" with a pressure of 3182 PSI. At 8", the chamber pressure will be 3318 PSI and the bullet velocity will be 910 FPS (if that matters, I don't think it does).

9.3x39 Russian Subsonic
.366" 286 grain Hornady SP RP Interlock 3560
COAL 2.205" (36 grain H2O case volume)
18 in barrel 50ksi peak tuned for 1050 fps
Accurate TCM

Info updated from QL:
% case volume 46.2
Grains 9
Velocity 1047
% powder burn 98.44 (95% burn at 8.8")
Chamber PSI 18315
Muzzle PSI 1508
Gas port PSI 3318

Since I have actual numbers now, QL has an interactive graph that I can mouse over any point and it'll give me the pressure, velocity, and bullet travel at that point, so I can get you the accurate anticipated pressure and velocity at any point along the bullet's travel, so we don't have to run two sets of data for 18" and 8" to get the gas port pressure.

If you get a different COAL or H2O volume, let me know so I can update those and run them again.

Just for fun, I asked for 100% fill, that's 19.48 grains, and a whopping 111,258 PSI giving 1779 FPS. It hits that 111K PSI peak at .3" of bullet travel. Instant skadoosh.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Wa11y posted:



Just for fun, I asked for 100% fill, that's 19.48 grains, and a whopping 111,258 PSI giving 1779 FPS. It hits that 111K PSI peak at .3" of bullet travel. Instant skadoosh.





Reminder kids we're dealing with miniature bombs.

Wa11y
Jul 23, 2002

Did I say "cookies?" I meant, "Fire in your face!"

I think what upsets me most is that at 111k PSI, you're still only getting less than 1800 FPS. Even if you built a pressure vessel to contain 112k PSI you're not getting a velocity worth the effort.

Kinda like how the .22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer only moved a 50 grain bullet to a max of 4600 FPS with 105 grains of powder (the goal was 5000 FPS), but .22-250 can move a 50 grain bullet to just under 4000 FPS with less than half the powder. (I don't have pressures for the 22 EL and don't know how to model it in QL, but judging by stories of rifles destroyed by P.O. Ackley while developing it, it wasn't low pressure.)

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Wa11y posted:

I think what upsets me most is that at 111k PSI, you're still only getting less than 1800 FPS. Even if you built a pressure vessel to contain 112k PSI you're not getting a velocity worth the effort.

Kinda like how the .22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer only moved a 50 grain bullet to a max of 4600 FPS with 105 grains of powder (the goal was 5000 FPS), but .22-250 can move a 50 grain bullet to just under 4000 FPS with less than half the powder. (I don't have pressures for the 22 EL and don't know how to model it in QL, but judging by stories of rifles destroyed by P.O. Ackley while developing it, it wasn't low pressure.)

What's the muzzle pressure listed as with the skadoosh load?




On another partly related note. Can you force QL to take a 95gr makarov Xtp into the 9x39? for... reasons... that have nothing to do with the pile of them in a box I just got.

shalafi4 fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Jun 4, 2021

Wa11y
Jul 23, 2002

Did I say "cookies?" I meant, "Fire in your face!"

shalafi4 posted:

What's the muzzle pressure listed as with the skadoosh load?




On another partly related note. Can you force QL to take a 95gr makarov Xtp into the 9x39? for... reasons... that have nothing to do with the pile of them in a box I just got.

No 95 grain XTP, but there is 90 grain Speer Gold Dot and TMJ, and a 95 grain "X Penetrat 07364095SP" which looks to be the Lehigh Defense Penetrator.

I can try to add the Hornady XTP, but adding a bullet always corrupts my bullet file.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Wa11y posted:

No 95 grain XTP, but there is 90 grain Speer Gold Dot and TMJ, and a 95 grain "X Penetrat 07364095SP" which looks to be the Lehigh Defense Penetrator.

I can try to add the Hornady XTP, but adding a bullet always corrupts my bullet file.

The 90 gr Speer is within spitting distance of the XTP.

Wa11y
Jul 23, 2002

Did I say "cookies?" I meant, "Fire in your face!"

shalafi4 posted:

The 90 gr Speer is within spitting distance of the XTP.

What are you looking to do with it? Screaming fast, I assume?

Edit: Can you eyeball me an overall length? The default 2.205" that QL uses doesn't work with the 95 grain Speer TMJ (not sure why I misread it as 90 grain earlier), it has it a quarter of an inch OUTSIDE the case mouth. It says the Speer bullet is .435" long, so if I assume 1 caliber of seating depth, that leaves .071" outside the case, with an overall length of 1.593", assuming QLs case length of 1.522 is accurate. That seems REALLY short to me, but I'm crap at visualizing.

Edit again: Found the dimension drawing in your original thread, and it looks like the case neck is only 5.7mm or .224", and the case length is....39mm :facepalm: which is about .1523". So if we just seat the bullet base to the top of the shoulder, that gives us a 1.733" COAL. Sound about right?

We have too god drat many smilies and I never use them anyway.

Wa11y fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jun 4, 2021

Wa11y
Jul 23, 2002

Did I say "cookies?" I meant, "Fire in your face!"

shalafi4 posted:

What's the muzzle pressure listed as with the skadoosh load?

Oh yeah, getting back to this, at 111K chamber PSI, in an 18" barrel, the muzzle PSI is 2526. It's, uh, a pretty steep slope on the pressure curve. It drops down to 50K PSI in 1.2" of bullet travel.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Wa11y posted:

Oh yeah, getting back to this, at 111K chamber PSI, in an 18" barrel, the muzzle PSI is 2526. It's, uh, a pretty steep slope on the pressure curve. It drops down to 50K PSI in 1.2" of bullet travel.

Yea we're in "Quickload is having a panic attack" realm.


super back of napkin math.

Chamber is ~1.5" long, so we're about 12 chamber lengths.

Assuming the bore is the same diameter as the chamber. (final number should come out too low) ~110ksi /12 = 9250psi.

I know its not a 1:1 comparison because of *insert actual physics* but in the +/- 50% range maybe?

Wa11y posted:

What are you looking to do with it? Screaming fast, I assume?

Edit: Can you eyeball me an overall length? The default 2.205" that QL uses doesn't work with the 95 grain Speer TMJ (not sure why I misread it as 90 grain earlier), it has it a quarter of an inch OUTSIDE the case mouth. It says the Speer bullet is .435" long, so if I assume 1 caliber of seating depth, that leaves .071" outside the case, with an overall length of 1.593", assuming QLs case length of 1.522 is accurate. That seems REALLY short to me, but I'm crap at visualizing.

Edit again: Found the dimension drawing in your original thread, and it looks like the case neck is only 5.7mm or .224", and the case length is....39mm :facepalm: which is about .1523". So if we just seat the bullet base to the top of the shoulder, that gives us a 1.733" COAL. Sound about right?

We have too god drat many smilies and I never use them anyway.

Yea it would be a really stubby round most likely.

This thing actually has some planned use other than "we can" It'll get used to shoot groundhogs. We got some of the 9x18 hollow points for dirt cheap from a local reloading guy and figured why not give them a try.

QL data Wa11y sent has it going ~ 2700 fps out of an 18" barrel.

Had no idea they might wind up being *THAT* fast.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Heya Paging Wa11Y



2 questions,

What does QL have as the useable case capacity for a .41 magnum?


What's the heaviest bullet they've got programmed in for it? (ideally ~275ish?) and could you run that with TCM powder?

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Wa11y
Jul 23, 2002

Did I say "cookies?" I meant, "Fire in your face!"

shalafi4 posted:

Heya Paging Wa11Y



2 questions,

What does QL have as the useable case capacity for a .41 magnum?


What's the heaviest bullet they've got programmed in for it? (ideally ~275ish?) and could you run that with TCM powder?
Usable case capacity depends on the bullet you specify and its seating depth (case capacity - seated bullet shank). It says 35 grains H2O capacity, so it'll be something less than that.

Bullets go all the way up to 400 grains, but the closest I could find to 275 grain is a .410" 260 grain "Impala LW CFN bullet" or a .410" 283.3 grain "SAX .400 KJG BCS G0044". Either of those sound close to what you're looking for?

There's also a .411" 270 grain "DKT SpSP #409 405 Win" if I give the bullet diameter .410 instead of the .409 it defaults to. That one makes the usable case capacity 11.939 grains at 1.590" COAL.

Looks like you need to keep it around a max of 10.2 grains to keep it under 36K PSI. That's gonna give 1216 FPS from an 18" barrel, but I assume that's longer than you're using. A more realistic 6" barrel is 1028 FPS.

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